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CNN Saturday Morning News

The Novak Zone -- Interview With Charlie Wilson

Aired June 21, 2003 - 09:29   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: He was known in Washington as a whiskey-drinking, skirt-chasing, scandal-prone congressman, but few knew of Charlie Wilson's crucial role in the covert operation to arm the Afghans against the Soviet Union. Charlie Wilson joins Robert Novak in this week's edition of "The Novak Zone."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT NOVAK, HOST: Welcome to the NOVAK ZONE. I'm Robert Novak in downtown Washington in the office of former congressman Charlie Wilson, Democrat of Texas.

Mr. Wilson is the focus of a new, fascinating book, "Charlie Wilson's War," written by CBS "60 Minutes" producer, George Crile. The war is how the Afghan freedom fighters drove the Soviet troops out of Afghanistan.

Charlie Wilson, did you really win that war?

CHARLES WILSON, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: No, I didn't really win it. The people that really won it were the guys that did the bleeding and the dying. They were these illiterate tribes from the mountains of Afghanistan, shepherds and tribesmen, and a million Afghan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people the Soviet army killed, they're the ones that won the war. But I held their coats and helped get them some machine gun bullets.

NOVAK: But what you did was that you bullied and forced the government and the CIA to provide Stinger missiles to shoot down these murderous (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- is that how you pronounce it? Hind (ph) Russian helicopters. Is that correct?

WILSON: Yes, sir.

Do you think that if it hadn't been for Charlie Wilson the Soviets would have stayed and still be in Afghanistan?

WILSON: I think there's a good chance. I think there's a good chance. The focus, the focal point of the conflict of the war was that certain people, and I cast no aspersions, but there was a theory -- it was an honorable theory, but it was a wrong theory -- but there was a theory within the agency...

NOVAK: The CIA.

WILSON: The CIA. There was a theory there, and also was held by the joint chiefs of staff, fortunately not by Secretary Weinberger, but by the joint chiefs, that the Soviets should not be infuriated. They wanted to just irritate them. And they were willing to keep enough arms and enough small arms going to the Afghans to where they would slowly bleed the Soviets and cause them great embarrassment.

After my first visit and the first visit to the hospital and seeing the crippled children from picking up the mines that were disguised as toys, I just became obsessed with the idea that that was the wrong theory and that if we were going to keep them in the field at all, we should give them a chance to win.

NOVAK: And that was really the crowning blow, that really ended the Cold War, defeated the communists in the Cold War, wasn't it? The loss in Afghanistan.

WILSON: It certainly defeated the Red Army. And it certainly took away the Red Army's great prestige in the Politburo consulate. Gorbachev gave them everything they asked for, and when they could not beat these illiterate tribesmen, it just destroyed their credibility.

NOVAK: This is a -- George Crile is a television journalist. This is his first book, I guess. And it's really a fascinating story. But in the dust jacket, it refers to you as a whiskey-swilling, skirt- chasing, scandal-prone congressman. Does that embarrass you?

WILSON: I plead guilty. I plead guilty. As Ann Richards once said, I endured the world's longest midlife crisis.

NOVAK: Do you think, Mr. Wilson, that your success in arming these tribesmen and getting them the Stinger missiles led to the Taliban and to the misery of the Muslim extremists in Afghanistan?

WILSON: I don't know whether it did or not. I doubt it. But the thing is, you have to put it in context. This was 1979. This was the instrument that actually, Jimmy Carter said he finally understood the threat of the Soviet Union, canceled the wheat sales, canceled the Olympics, raised the defense budget by 20 percent.

It was good and evil. What were we going to do? These people, who were a very religious nation, were, without provocation, invaded by the irresistible Red Army. But yet they proved they were going to fight to the death if they had to do it with stones and knives. What were we going to do? We would have been -- had we let them sell their lives that cheaply, we would have been damned by history. It was black and white at the time. Now we can look back and say, "Well, it radicalized the fundamental Islamists." But really not.

And also, I'd like to lay to rest one other myth, and that is that the Osama bin Ladens of the world were fighting alongside the jihad. There was not a Wahhabi Saudi anywhere where there was gunfire. They were back in the caves, writing checks and giving advice, but there were no Saudis -- there were no Saudis fighting these Russians. Never. Never, never, never.

NOVAK: And now the big question for former Congressman Charlie Wilson. Congressman Wilson, the Russians had a military disaster with their great Red Army fighting the peasants (ph), why was it that the United States in the present war against Afghanistan had such an easy time of it, overcoming the Taliban?

WILSON: Because the Taliban, because the soldiers of the Taliban did not consider us an evil, atheistic force the way they did the Soviets. It was -- by that time, it was ambiguous. When it was the Red Army invading their country, that was different. And I asked them many times, what is the difference? Why do you like us, or why do you allow us on your soil, and the Soviets were so hated? They said very simply, they said, "You've got a book. They haven't got a book."

NOVAK: Charlie Wilson, thank you very much.

And thank you for being in THE NOVAK ZONE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 21, 2003 - 09:29   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: He was known in Washington as a whiskey-drinking, skirt-chasing, scandal-prone congressman, but few knew of Charlie Wilson's crucial role in the covert operation to arm the Afghans against the Soviet Union. Charlie Wilson joins Robert Novak in this week's edition of "The Novak Zone."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT NOVAK, HOST: Welcome to the NOVAK ZONE. I'm Robert Novak in downtown Washington in the office of former congressman Charlie Wilson, Democrat of Texas.

Mr. Wilson is the focus of a new, fascinating book, "Charlie Wilson's War," written by CBS "60 Minutes" producer, George Crile. The war is how the Afghan freedom fighters drove the Soviet troops out of Afghanistan.

Charlie Wilson, did you really win that war?

CHARLES WILSON, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: No, I didn't really win it. The people that really won it were the guys that did the bleeding and the dying. They were these illiterate tribes from the mountains of Afghanistan, shepherds and tribesmen, and a million Afghan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people the Soviet army killed, they're the ones that won the war. But I held their coats and helped get them some machine gun bullets.

NOVAK: But what you did was that you bullied and forced the government and the CIA to provide Stinger missiles to shoot down these murderous (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- is that how you pronounce it? Hind (ph) Russian helicopters. Is that correct?

WILSON: Yes, sir.

Do you think that if it hadn't been for Charlie Wilson the Soviets would have stayed and still be in Afghanistan?

WILSON: I think there's a good chance. I think there's a good chance. The focus, the focal point of the conflict of the war was that certain people, and I cast no aspersions, but there was a theory -- it was an honorable theory, but it was a wrong theory -- but there was a theory within the agency...

NOVAK: The CIA.

WILSON: The CIA. There was a theory there, and also was held by the joint chiefs of staff, fortunately not by Secretary Weinberger, but by the joint chiefs, that the Soviets should not be infuriated. They wanted to just irritate them. And they were willing to keep enough arms and enough small arms going to the Afghans to where they would slowly bleed the Soviets and cause them great embarrassment.

After my first visit and the first visit to the hospital and seeing the crippled children from picking up the mines that were disguised as toys, I just became obsessed with the idea that that was the wrong theory and that if we were going to keep them in the field at all, we should give them a chance to win.

NOVAK: And that was really the crowning blow, that really ended the Cold War, defeated the communists in the Cold War, wasn't it? The loss in Afghanistan.

WILSON: It certainly defeated the Red Army. And it certainly took away the Red Army's great prestige in the Politburo consulate. Gorbachev gave them everything they asked for, and when they could not beat these illiterate tribesmen, it just destroyed their credibility.

NOVAK: This is a -- George Crile is a television journalist. This is his first book, I guess. And it's really a fascinating story. But in the dust jacket, it refers to you as a whiskey-swilling, skirt- chasing, scandal-prone congressman. Does that embarrass you?

WILSON: I plead guilty. I plead guilty. As Ann Richards once said, I endured the world's longest midlife crisis.

NOVAK: Do you think, Mr. Wilson, that your success in arming these tribesmen and getting them the Stinger missiles led to the Taliban and to the misery of the Muslim extremists in Afghanistan?

WILSON: I don't know whether it did or not. I doubt it. But the thing is, you have to put it in context. This was 1979. This was the instrument that actually, Jimmy Carter said he finally understood the threat of the Soviet Union, canceled the wheat sales, canceled the Olympics, raised the defense budget by 20 percent.

It was good and evil. What were we going to do? These people, who were a very religious nation, were, without provocation, invaded by the irresistible Red Army. But yet they proved they were going to fight to the death if they had to do it with stones and knives. What were we going to do? We would have been -- had we let them sell their lives that cheaply, we would have been damned by history. It was black and white at the time. Now we can look back and say, "Well, it radicalized the fundamental Islamists." But really not.

And also, I'd like to lay to rest one other myth, and that is that the Osama bin Ladens of the world were fighting alongside the jihad. There was not a Wahhabi Saudi anywhere where there was gunfire. They were back in the caves, writing checks and giving advice, but there were no Saudis -- there were no Saudis fighting these Russians. Never. Never, never, never.

NOVAK: And now the big question for former Congressman Charlie Wilson. Congressman Wilson, the Russians had a military disaster with their great Red Army fighting the peasants (ph), why was it that the United States in the present war against Afghanistan had such an easy time of it, overcoming the Taliban?

WILSON: Because the Taliban, because the soldiers of the Taliban did not consider us an evil, atheistic force the way they did the Soviets. It was -- by that time, it was ambiguous. When it was the Red Army invading their country, that was different. And I asked them many times, what is the difference? Why do you like us, or why do you allow us on your soil, and the Soviets were so hated? They said very simply, they said, "You've got a book. They haven't got a book."

NOVAK: Charlie Wilson, thank you very much.

And thank you for being in THE NOVAK ZONE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com