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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview with Cliff May, P.J. Crowley

Aired August 16, 2003 - 09:05   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Homemade explosive detonated today in a town north of Baghdad, and a series of blasts ripped through a U.S. military convoy. One American soldier was wounded.
Meanwhile, an oil pipeline is afire in northern Iraq, cutting off crude oil exports to Turkey just three days after they began. Officials suspect sabotage. The fire has been contained, but the repairs could take two weeks to a month.

For thousands of U.S. troops and their families, the war in Iraq is far from over. With Americans being killed every week, just about, some people have started a campaign to bring U.S. troops home. Among those supporting the campaign are pacifists, veterans, and parents of the troops that are still there.

To debate the issue, we go to Washington for reaction from Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, and P.J. Crowley, former White House national security spokesman.

Good to see both of you.

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Good to see you, Fredricka.

P.J. CROWLEY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY SPOKESMAN: Good morning.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, the president keeps saying that the U.S. troops need to stay exactly where they are, and things are going according to plan. P.J., you agree with that?

CROWLEY: Well, the United States had a great plan for going into war. It unfortunately had no plan for the peace. So we're making it up as we go along. What the administration needs to do, and has yet to do, is to tell the American people we're going to be there for years, we're going to have hundreds of thousands of troops there for years, and it's going to cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

MAY: Let me differ a little bit. First of all, what we agree on, P.J. and I, is that this move -- this effort to bring the American troops home now would be a dreadful mistake, in fact, it would be a historic mistake. The job that we came to do is not yet done.

We've got a provisional governing council up and running, that's good. A constitution is being written. That's going to take about a year. And then we want to eventually have elections and a fully constituted Iraqi government.

At that point, we can begin to lessen our presence there. But for a lot of reasons, we do have to be there.

Now, P.J.'s also to say we didn't have a fully blown plan for how to democratize this country, how to nation-build. But you know what? Nobody else in the world does. The Europeans have been trying to do it for years in their former colonies in Africa, and they haven't succeeded.

But the consequences of our succeeding in Iraq, creating the first real democracy in the Arab world, that is enormous. And the consequences of our failure would be enormous too, which is why we got to stay the course.

WHITFIELD: Well, Cliff, let me jump in with that, in that the White House said it did indeed have a plan post-Saddam, even though Congress demanded to see that plan, and that was not delivered. How do you suppose this is being interpreted by the international community, who is hearing from the Iraqi people that, clearly, things are not moving along smoothly at all?

MAY: Well, I don't know, know -- look, I don't think anybody expected it to be smooth. Why would you? We're trying to do something that's never been done before, we're trying not only to get rid of the oppression that has lasted for more than 30 years in Iraq, but also we're trying to build democratic institutions.

You tell me which country or which international organization can say they've done that successfully anywhere in the world. So while we -- I do -- no, we did have a plan, but it's as in battle, no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

Similarly, we have to be flexible and see what's working and see what's not. Yes, we changed from Jay Garner being in charge to Paul Bremer. We are doing what has to be done. It's -- P.J.'s right. It's going to be very tough, it may even be costly.

But the consequences for the region and for the United States's security and for the world are enormous.

WHITFIELD: Well, P.J....

CROWLEY: But unfortunately, the...

WHITFIELD: ... American support is falling off. We're seeing poll numbers reflecting that. And now you have a campaign being launched this week, in particular by many veterans and many loved ones of some of the U.S. troops over there. This certainly cannot be helping the White House stance at all.

CROWLEY: Well, you know, the president on May 1 made a very political visit to the USS "Abraham Lincoln" with a banner behind him that said, "Mission Accomplished." It should have said, "Mission Just Started." And this week, the Bush administration missed a very good opportunity to arrange a Security Council resolution that would have given the vehicle for other countries to begin to provide forces in great numbers so that we could, over time, see the U.S. component start to be reduced.

The fact is, we have 139,000 U.S. troops, 11,000 British troops, and 10,000 for the rest of the world. This is a campaign that should be more effectively internationalized. But right now, the Bush administration refuses to let it go, which is ironic, because we've let the Afghanistan mission go to NATO, which is a component that is much more critical to our immediate security, given the presence of al Qaeda there.

MAY: You know, I think we can talk about bringing NATO in. But the important thing is this. We have the responsibility for this whole mission. We therefore need the authority. And if the cost of bringing French troops in is that the French suddenly have authority in Iraq, that would be a terrible mistake. It'll be seen by the Iraqis and by the world as our looking to cut and run, and give this job over to somebody else.

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: ... and let's wrap this up with now another thought, of another potential monkey wrench that's been thrown into this. We're talking about a whole generation of Muslim militants that seemed to be gaining strength. At least, this is the observation that many are making that, perhaps, as long as there is this instability in Iraq of this post-Saddam regime, they're only going to gain more fuel. P.J.?

CROWLEY: Well, that is an area where Cliff and I absolutely agree. If we get Iraq right, we do have an opportunity for a better Middle East, one that is more sympathetic to U.S. and Western values.

And if we get Iraq wrong, it is going to create a much more significant problem for us in terms of the broader war on terrorism.

WHITFIELD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CROWLEY: That's why it's unfortunate that the Bush administration refuses to allow, you know, greater capability from the international community, which could really help us.

WHITFIELD: All right.

CROWLEY: And because of that, our guys are going to be guys that continue-

WHITFIELD: All right. And since you all seem...

CROWLEY: ... to bear the burden, and suffer the losses.

WHITFIELD: And since you all seem to be in agreement on that, I'm going to have that be the last word, because we're running out of time. P.J. Crowley and Cliff May, thanks to both of you, and thanks for joining us for this spirited debate.

MAY: Thank you.

CROWLEY: A pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired August 16, 2003 - 09:05   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Homemade explosive detonated today in a town north of Baghdad, and a series of blasts ripped through a U.S. military convoy. One American soldier was wounded.
Meanwhile, an oil pipeline is afire in northern Iraq, cutting off crude oil exports to Turkey just three days after they began. Officials suspect sabotage. The fire has been contained, but the repairs could take two weeks to a month.

For thousands of U.S. troops and their families, the war in Iraq is far from over. With Americans being killed every week, just about, some people have started a campaign to bring U.S. troops home. Among those supporting the campaign are pacifists, veterans, and parents of the troops that are still there.

To debate the issue, we go to Washington for reaction from Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, and P.J. Crowley, former White House national security spokesman.

Good to see both of you.

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Good to see you, Fredricka.

P.J. CROWLEY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY SPOKESMAN: Good morning.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, the president keeps saying that the U.S. troops need to stay exactly where they are, and things are going according to plan. P.J., you agree with that?

CROWLEY: Well, the United States had a great plan for going into war. It unfortunately had no plan for the peace. So we're making it up as we go along. What the administration needs to do, and has yet to do, is to tell the American people we're going to be there for years, we're going to have hundreds of thousands of troops there for years, and it's going to cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

MAY: Let me differ a little bit. First of all, what we agree on, P.J. and I, is that this move -- this effort to bring the American troops home now would be a dreadful mistake, in fact, it would be a historic mistake. The job that we came to do is not yet done.

We've got a provisional governing council up and running, that's good. A constitution is being written. That's going to take about a year. And then we want to eventually have elections and a fully constituted Iraqi government.

At that point, we can begin to lessen our presence there. But for a lot of reasons, we do have to be there.

Now, P.J.'s also to say we didn't have a fully blown plan for how to democratize this country, how to nation-build. But you know what? Nobody else in the world does. The Europeans have been trying to do it for years in their former colonies in Africa, and they haven't succeeded.

But the consequences of our succeeding in Iraq, creating the first real democracy in the Arab world, that is enormous. And the consequences of our failure would be enormous too, which is why we got to stay the course.

WHITFIELD: Well, Cliff, let me jump in with that, in that the White House said it did indeed have a plan post-Saddam, even though Congress demanded to see that plan, and that was not delivered. How do you suppose this is being interpreted by the international community, who is hearing from the Iraqi people that, clearly, things are not moving along smoothly at all?

MAY: Well, I don't know, know -- look, I don't think anybody expected it to be smooth. Why would you? We're trying to do something that's never been done before, we're trying not only to get rid of the oppression that has lasted for more than 30 years in Iraq, but also we're trying to build democratic institutions.

You tell me which country or which international organization can say they've done that successfully anywhere in the world. So while we -- I do -- no, we did have a plan, but it's as in battle, no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

Similarly, we have to be flexible and see what's working and see what's not. Yes, we changed from Jay Garner being in charge to Paul Bremer. We are doing what has to be done. It's -- P.J.'s right. It's going to be very tough, it may even be costly.

But the consequences for the region and for the United States's security and for the world are enormous.

WHITFIELD: Well, P.J....

CROWLEY: But unfortunately, the...

WHITFIELD: ... American support is falling off. We're seeing poll numbers reflecting that. And now you have a campaign being launched this week, in particular by many veterans and many loved ones of some of the U.S. troops over there. This certainly cannot be helping the White House stance at all.

CROWLEY: Well, you know, the president on May 1 made a very political visit to the USS "Abraham Lincoln" with a banner behind him that said, "Mission Accomplished." It should have said, "Mission Just Started." And this week, the Bush administration missed a very good opportunity to arrange a Security Council resolution that would have given the vehicle for other countries to begin to provide forces in great numbers so that we could, over time, see the U.S. component start to be reduced.

The fact is, we have 139,000 U.S. troops, 11,000 British troops, and 10,000 for the rest of the world. This is a campaign that should be more effectively internationalized. But right now, the Bush administration refuses to let it go, which is ironic, because we've let the Afghanistan mission go to NATO, which is a component that is much more critical to our immediate security, given the presence of al Qaeda there.

MAY: You know, I think we can talk about bringing NATO in. But the important thing is this. We have the responsibility for this whole mission. We therefore need the authority. And if the cost of bringing French troops in is that the French suddenly have authority in Iraq, that would be a terrible mistake. It'll be seen by the Iraqis and by the world as our looking to cut and run, and give this job over to somebody else.

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: ... and let's wrap this up with now another thought, of another potential monkey wrench that's been thrown into this. We're talking about a whole generation of Muslim militants that seemed to be gaining strength. At least, this is the observation that many are making that, perhaps, as long as there is this instability in Iraq of this post-Saddam regime, they're only going to gain more fuel. P.J.?

CROWLEY: Well, that is an area where Cliff and I absolutely agree. If we get Iraq right, we do have an opportunity for a better Middle East, one that is more sympathetic to U.S. and Western values.

And if we get Iraq wrong, it is going to create a much more significant problem for us in terms of the broader war on terrorism.

WHITFIELD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CROWLEY: That's why it's unfortunate that the Bush administration refuses to allow, you know, greater capability from the international community, which could really help us.

WHITFIELD: All right.

CROWLEY: And because of that, our guys are going to be guys that continue-

WHITFIELD: All right. And since you all seem...

CROWLEY: ... to bear the burden, and suffer the losses.

WHITFIELD: And since you all seem to be in agreement on that, I'm going to have that be the last word, because we're running out of time. P.J. Crowley and Cliff May, thanks to both of you, and thanks for joining us for this spirited debate.

MAY: Thank you.

CROWLEY: A pleasure.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com