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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interviews with Alon Pinkus, Hassan Abdel Rahman
Aired September 13, 2003 - 07:37 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
STEPHEN FRAZIER, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to look forward as that cycle of violence continues. And the big question is whether Israel will remove Yasser Arafat. Israel says he is an obstacle to peace. Palestinians do not agree.
Hassan Abdel Rahman is the chief Palestinian representative to the United States and we will get reaction from him in just a moment.
First, let's talk with Alon Pinkus, who is Israeli Consul General in New York.
Mr. Consul General, welcome.
ALON PINKUS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: Thank you.
Good morning, Stephen.
FRAZIER: Good morning to you, sir.
We are still interested in hearing the legal justification for this removal. It sounds almost as though Israel is trying to chose Palestinian leaders.
Does it have that right?
PINKUS: No. We don't have the right and we're not choosing Palestinian leaders. And there -- but there is no legal justification. The justification is moral, it's political, it is based on national security and when you have a walking one man weapon of mass destruction that has done nothing in the last 10 years but flirt with violence, incite violence, carry out violence, justify violence and glorify violence, then you have to do what you have to do. And you know the cliche, if he walks like a terrorist, sounds like a terrorist, then maybe he is a terrorist.
FRAZIER: Are you comfortable with the idea that because Mr. Arafat's compound is surrounded that any attempt to remove him may lead to violence, possibly to his death?
PINKUS: No, I'm not happy about that at all and I hope we won't get to that and I truly do not believe, Stephen, that it will get to that. But you have to, you know, you have to understand something very simple. We have given this man every opportunity in the world. The doors to the White House, the doors to Ten Downing, the doors to Moscow and Paris and Berlin and Rome were open to him. He was a frequent guest in Israel. He visited the homes of prime ministers. We have negotiated with him. I met him four times and I wasn't the prime minister. We all met him, we all did stuff with him.
He betrayed our trust. He embezzled the funds of the Palestinian Authority. He promised nothing to the Palestinians but more misery, more blood and more tragedy.
I think it is that first and foremost -- and, again, I'm going back to what you asked me, and I agree with you, it is not our job to determine the Palestinian leadership. But if you ask me candidly, this man, it should be in Palestinian interests to remove this man from the political scene.
FRAZIER: There's always the question of the devil you know and the devil you don't, and I'm speaking there as a devil's advocate, if you'll apologize for my use of this metaphor. What would happen after his removal, in your estimation?
PINKUS: Well, I don't know that he's being removed imminently. But the problem -- see, one of the things that we demanded for a long time, for several years, and one of the things that President George W. Bush demanded last year was that the Palestinians undergo serious and deep political reform. One of the outcomes, one of the positive outcomes, I might add, was the election or selection of Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, who just resigned 10 days ago.
We have warned ever since his election, and we have assessed that as long as Arafat remains with some powers, as long as he possesses residual executive powers, no Palestinian prime minister could succeed.
Now, there are 12, 12 separate security organs in the Palestinian Authority. The U.S. has only the CIA and the FBI and local police departments. The Palestinian Authority has 12 FBIs, 12 paramilitary organizations, 12 armed forces. He controls most of them. If he is removed, I mean seriously removed from any position of political power, then a new Palestinian leadership -- which I don't expect to be more pro-Israeli or more forthcoming in terms of my interests. I expect them to be just as much Palestinian nationalists. But a new, clean, candid, honest and fair Palestinian leadership will take over this power and the devil that we don't know could very well prove to be much, much better or a preferable alternative to this devil that we do know.
FRAZIER: Well, we are grateful for those insights, as we watch this very tense situation.
Alon Pinkus, Mr. Consul General, thank you for joining us this morning.
PINKUS: Thank you, Stephen.
FRAZIER: Now to Hassan Abdel Rahman, who is the Palestinian representative to the United States.
Mr. Rahman, thank you for joining us this morning.
HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.S.: Thank you.
Good morning.
FRAZIER: I have to ask, is it possible that Mr. Arafat could be moved to another location but still retain his authority, as he did from Tunis for so many years?
RAHMAN: Well, first of all, I don't believe that Yasser Arafat is going to be removed. He's not going to allow himself to be removed and the Palestinian people are not going to allow him to be removed. Because his removal, first of all, is illegal, it is immoral and it is particularly counterproductive.
It is illegal because Yasser Arafat is a Palestinian citizen. No power should be able or should have the right to remove the elected leader of another people.
Morally, I mean what the Israelis are doing in the Palestinian territories, they are an occupying force. They do not expect the Palestinians to throw flowers at them. They build settlements in our lands. They occupy our people. They use violence. They use the, what we call the terrorism of the tanks. Anyone who is watching the streets of the Palestinian territories will see tanks roaming around inside residential areas, bombarding Palestinians in their homes, in their towns.
So, when Mr. Pinkus speaks about terrorism, I become really amazed at the callousness of the Israeli speaker.
FRAZIER: We are looking at pictures from Ramallah right now as you speak, sharing the screen with you.
RAHMAN: Yes.
FRAZIER: And I have to ask what your role in the United States is during these very tense moments. Have you been speaking in your diplomatic capacity? Have you been asking the United States for a reaction?
RAHMAN: Yes, and the Americans have assured us that they disagree, like everyone else in the world, yesterday in the Security Council of the United Nations. There is a blanket of condemnation for Israeli action and the Israeli decision, because it's going to be counterproductive.
I personally believe that Mr. Sharon's policy has failed. He failed to posing or doing anything that will further the peace process, so instead of dealing with the issues, he is personalizing the conflict. He's personalizing the conflict by making Yasser Arafat look like as if he is the problem.
But if we look at the last three months and what happened since President Bush launched the road map in Sharm el-Sheikh and in Aqaba, we see that Israel continued building settlements in the Palestinian territories. They continued to build the wall. They continued the assassination not withstanding that we had 50 days of total cease-fire on the Palestinian side.
So...
FRAZIER: And since the president launched that initiative, as you cite, Mr. Rahman, he has been making several unflattering comments about Chairman Arafat. Certainly that is dismaying to you.
RAHMAN: Yes. But this is not new. What we have to look at what the administration have said about Israeli compliance with the road map. The Americans told the Israelis don't build the wall and Mr. Sharon defied President Bush in the White House and said I will build this wall on Palestinian territories. They told him to dismantle the illegal Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories and he said we are not going to dismantle those Jewish settlements in the Palestinian land. He told him to stop building new settlements and Israel continued to build settlements. He told him to stop assassinating Palestinians and he continued to assassinate Palestinians.
So Mr. Sharon did not do anything that Mr. Bush asked him to do.
FRAZIER: Well, this is a...
RAHMAN: I am sure that President Bush is not happy with the behavior or Mr. Sharon. That defies him in the very White House when they were standing together. Mr. Sharon said, no, Mr. President, I'm not going to do this.
FRAZIER: Understood.
Well, we, again, are grateful for those insights. A very delicate time and we appreciate your helping us understand the dynamic now.
Hassan Abdel Rahman, thank you for joining us this morning.
RAHMAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 13, 2003 - 07:37 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
STEPHEN FRAZIER, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to look forward as that cycle of violence continues. And the big question is whether Israel will remove Yasser Arafat. Israel says he is an obstacle to peace. Palestinians do not agree.
Hassan Abdel Rahman is the chief Palestinian representative to the United States and we will get reaction from him in just a moment.
First, let's talk with Alon Pinkus, who is Israeli Consul General in New York.
Mr. Consul General, welcome.
ALON PINKUS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: Thank you.
Good morning, Stephen.
FRAZIER: Good morning to you, sir.
We are still interested in hearing the legal justification for this removal. It sounds almost as though Israel is trying to chose Palestinian leaders.
Does it have that right?
PINKUS: No. We don't have the right and we're not choosing Palestinian leaders. And there -- but there is no legal justification. The justification is moral, it's political, it is based on national security and when you have a walking one man weapon of mass destruction that has done nothing in the last 10 years but flirt with violence, incite violence, carry out violence, justify violence and glorify violence, then you have to do what you have to do. And you know the cliche, if he walks like a terrorist, sounds like a terrorist, then maybe he is a terrorist.
FRAZIER: Are you comfortable with the idea that because Mr. Arafat's compound is surrounded that any attempt to remove him may lead to violence, possibly to his death?
PINKUS: No, I'm not happy about that at all and I hope we won't get to that and I truly do not believe, Stephen, that it will get to that. But you have to, you know, you have to understand something very simple. We have given this man every opportunity in the world. The doors to the White House, the doors to Ten Downing, the doors to Moscow and Paris and Berlin and Rome were open to him. He was a frequent guest in Israel. He visited the homes of prime ministers. We have negotiated with him. I met him four times and I wasn't the prime minister. We all met him, we all did stuff with him.
He betrayed our trust. He embezzled the funds of the Palestinian Authority. He promised nothing to the Palestinians but more misery, more blood and more tragedy.
I think it is that first and foremost -- and, again, I'm going back to what you asked me, and I agree with you, it is not our job to determine the Palestinian leadership. But if you ask me candidly, this man, it should be in Palestinian interests to remove this man from the political scene.
FRAZIER: There's always the question of the devil you know and the devil you don't, and I'm speaking there as a devil's advocate, if you'll apologize for my use of this metaphor. What would happen after his removal, in your estimation?
PINKUS: Well, I don't know that he's being removed imminently. But the problem -- see, one of the things that we demanded for a long time, for several years, and one of the things that President George W. Bush demanded last year was that the Palestinians undergo serious and deep political reform. One of the outcomes, one of the positive outcomes, I might add, was the election or selection of Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, who just resigned 10 days ago.
We have warned ever since his election, and we have assessed that as long as Arafat remains with some powers, as long as he possesses residual executive powers, no Palestinian prime minister could succeed.
Now, there are 12, 12 separate security organs in the Palestinian Authority. The U.S. has only the CIA and the FBI and local police departments. The Palestinian Authority has 12 FBIs, 12 paramilitary organizations, 12 armed forces. He controls most of them. If he is removed, I mean seriously removed from any position of political power, then a new Palestinian leadership -- which I don't expect to be more pro-Israeli or more forthcoming in terms of my interests. I expect them to be just as much Palestinian nationalists. But a new, clean, candid, honest and fair Palestinian leadership will take over this power and the devil that we don't know could very well prove to be much, much better or a preferable alternative to this devil that we do know.
FRAZIER: Well, we are grateful for those insights, as we watch this very tense situation.
Alon Pinkus, Mr. Consul General, thank you for joining us this morning.
PINKUS: Thank you, Stephen.
FRAZIER: Now to Hassan Abdel Rahman, who is the Palestinian representative to the United States.
Mr. Rahman, thank you for joining us this morning.
HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO THE U.S.: Thank you.
Good morning.
FRAZIER: I have to ask, is it possible that Mr. Arafat could be moved to another location but still retain his authority, as he did from Tunis for so many years?
RAHMAN: Well, first of all, I don't believe that Yasser Arafat is going to be removed. He's not going to allow himself to be removed and the Palestinian people are not going to allow him to be removed. Because his removal, first of all, is illegal, it is immoral and it is particularly counterproductive.
It is illegal because Yasser Arafat is a Palestinian citizen. No power should be able or should have the right to remove the elected leader of another people.
Morally, I mean what the Israelis are doing in the Palestinian territories, they are an occupying force. They do not expect the Palestinians to throw flowers at them. They build settlements in our lands. They occupy our people. They use violence. They use the, what we call the terrorism of the tanks. Anyone who is watching the streets of the Palestinian territories will see tanks roaming around inside residential areas, bombarding Palestinians in their homes, in their towns.
So, when Mr. Pinkus speaks about terrorism, I become really amazed at the callousness of the Israeli speaker.
FRAZIER: We are looking at pictures from Ramallah right now as you speak, sharing the screen with you.
RAHMAN: Yes.
FRAZIER: And I have to ask what your role in the United States is during these very tense moments. Have you been speaking in your diplomatic capacity? Have you been asking the United States for a reaction?
RAHMAN: Yes, and the Americans have assured us that they disagree, like everyone else in the world, yesterday in the Security Council of the United Nations. There is a blanket of condemnation for Israeli action and the Israeli decision, because it's going to be counterproductive.
I personally believe that Mr. Sharon's policy has failed. He failed to posing or doing anything that will further the peace process, so instead of dealing with the issues, he is personalizing the conflict. He's personalizing the conflict by making Yasser Arafat look like as if he is the problem.
But if we look at the last three months and what happened since President Bush launched the road map in Sharm el-Sheikh and in Aqaba, we see that Israel continued building settlements in the Palestinian territories. They continued to build the wall. They continued the assassination not withstanding that we had 50 days of total cease-fire on the Palestinian side.
So...
FRAZIER: And since the president launched that initiative, as you cite, Mr. Rahman, he has been making several unflattering comments about Chairman Arafat. Certainly that is dismaying to you.
RAHMAN: Yes. But this is not new. What we have to look at what the administration have said about Israeli compliance with the road map. The Americans told the Israelis don't build the wall and Mr. Sharon defied President Bush in the White House and said I will build this wall on Palestinian territories. They told him to dismantle the illegal Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories and he said we are not going to dismantle those Jewish settlements in the Palestinian land. He told him to stop building new settlements and Israel continued to build settlements. He told him to stop assassinating Palestinians and he continued to assassinate Palestinians.
So Mr. Sharon did not do anything that Mr. Bush asked him to do.
FRAZIER: Well, this is a...
RAHMAN: I am sure that President Bush is not happy with the behavior or Mr. Sharon. That defies him in the very White House when they were standing together. Mr. Sharon said, no, Mr. President, I'm not going to do this.
FRAZIER: Understood.
Well, we, again, are grateful for those insights. A very delicate time and we appreciate your helping us understand the dynamic now.
Hassan Abdel Rahman, thank you for joining us this morning.
RAHMAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
