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CNN Saturday Morning News

"Novak Zone"

Aired January 10, 2004 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill are two of the most respected world leaders in history. And as they led their nations through a world war, they did it not only as powerful allies, but as good friends.
CNN's Robert Novak looks at their special bond in this week's edition of The Novak Zone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.

WINSTON CHURCHILL, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We shall never cease to persevere against them until they have been taught a lesson which they, and the world, will never forget.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT NOVAK, HOST: Welcome to The Novak Zone.

We're with Jon Meacham, managing editor of "Newsweek" magazine. He's the author of a best-selling new book, "Franklin and Winston: An Intimate Portrait of an Epic Friendship."

Jon Meacham, what is unique about the relationship of these two world leaders?

JON MEACHAM, AUTHOR, "FRANKLIN AND WINSTON": The scope of the relationship. There is nothing like it in modern times. These are two heads of the English-speaking democracies who spent 113 days together during the war, who exchanged nearly 2,000 letters. There was a kind of intimacy and a kind of closeness, and an emotional connection through five years of war that hasn't been matched at any other point in our history.

NOVAK: Jon, there seems to be an enormous amount of interest in these two long-dead statesmen. A lot of Churchill books recently, and Lord Black has got a massive new biography of Roosevelt, and your book, your excellent book, has been on the "New York Times" bestseller list for six weeks now. Why the interest? MEACHAM: I think in a time of war, in a time with tenuous alliances, with shifting alliances, people are very interested in trying to figure out whether the leaders of today have enough in common with the leaders of yesterday who brought us forward.

NOVAK: As you note in the introduction to the book, there've hundreds of books written on these two gentlemen. But you did develop a lot of new information. And the impression I get is that this friendship, though genuine, was a lot more difficult than it is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- than it is portrayed in a lot of the books. Is that a fair statement?

MEACHAM: Absolutely. I think that's right. I think Roosevelt and Churchill were ultimately ready to kill for or murder each other, which is different than most friendships. I think it was more turbulent. I don't think it was entirely political. I think that they were brought together by the force of circumstance.

They were clearly co-stars in a global drama, but they felt a lot for each other. And it was -- again, they could feel jealousy for each other, they could be angry with each other, they could wear each other out.

NOVAK: But as you make clear, Jon, Winston Churchill's motives, as he made clear to his aides, was to draw the United States into World War II to save Britain, which was in a perilous state, standing alone against the Nazi onslaught. Did it develop personally from this very practical, pragmatic beginning?

MEACHAM: Oh, absolutely. The practical, the political and the personal are inextricably linked in this relationship, there's no question about that. Churchill himself said, "No lover ever studied the whims of his mistress as I did those of President Roosevelt." But he was doing it in a cause not just of Britain, but of democracy. We forget this. Winston Churchill stood alone in London and stared across the Channel and said Hitler has gone that far and no farther.

NOVAK: Jon Meacham, many years ago, when I read Churchill's memoirs, I was kind of startled that he noted that his very emotional and personal telegram of congratulations for Roosevelt winning the 1940 election went unanswered, and you mention that in the book. But you don't really explain. Why do you think it went unanswered?

MEACHAM: I think it went unanswered because Roosevelt was essentially a cold and difficult and complex man. He hid his emotions. He often would lead people to believe one thing while he was leading someone else to believe yet another.

I think at that point, he considered himself, as he considered himself throughout the war, the senior partner, and the senior man on the scene. And he didn't need to answer his mail. And it's heartbreaking in many ways, because Churchill -- it's an amazing telegram Churchill wrote.

NOVAK: It's a beautiful telegram, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)... MEACHAM: He says, "Things are afoot which shall be spoken of as long as the English language survives in any corner of the globe." And FDR couldn't write, Thanks for your note?

NOVAK: In that connection, Jon, near the end of Roosevelt's life, he really, as you describe in the book, treats Churchill very roughly in the triangular relationship with Stalin, where kind of making fun of Churchill's desire to create a common Anglo-American front against the Soviet Union on the allied side. He was pretty rough on that, wasn't he?

MEACHAM: He was. Roosevelt believed that the postwar world would be run between Washington and Moscow, and that London would be a subsidiary player. Every bone and every vessel in Churchill's body fought against that, the idea that somehow or another Britain would not be at the center of the world stage.

NOVAK: Can you compare their relationship to the present-day relationship between President Bush and Prime Minister Blair?

MEACHAM: I think Bush and Blair were brought together by the events of the 11th and the war in Iraq in a way that feels a lot like the way Roosevelt and Churchill were brought together. They have a common purpose.

NOVAK: And now the big question for Jon Meacham, author of "Franklin and Winston."

Jon, what lessons for us, in this difficult time, do you think we can draw from this relationship of Roosevelt and Churchill?

MEACHAM: I think there are three things. I think that leaders require courage to fight fights that might be unpopular in their own countries, or in allied countries. I think there is a lesson of candor. Roosevelt and Churchill were very intent on giving the people the straight dope on what the challenges were, and therefore, were given a reciprocal vote of confidence.

And I think cooperation. Roosevelt and Churchill never left the table. They could be angry with each other, they could be put out with each other, and they could see a hopeless clash of national interests. And yet they stayed at the table because they knew that their common goal trumped whatever problems they might have together at the moment.

NOVAK: Thank you, Jon Meacham, author of "Franklin and Winston."

And thank you for being in The Novak Zone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 10, 2004 - 09:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill are two of the most respected world leaders in history. And as they led their nations through a world war, they did it not only as powerful allies, but as good friends.
CNN's Robert Novak looks at their special bond in this week's edition of The Novak Zone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.

WINSTON CHURCHILL, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We shall never cease to persevere against them until they have been taught a lesson which they, and the world, will never forget.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT NOVAK, HOST: Welcome to The Novak Zone.

We're with Jon Meacham, managing editor of "Newsweek" magazine. He's the author of a best-selling new book, "Franklin and Winston: An Intimate Portrait of an Epic Friendship."

Jon Meacham, what is unique about the relationship of these two world leaders?

JON MEACHAM, AUTHOR, "FRANKLIN AND WINSTON": The scope of the relationship. There is nothing like it in modern times. These are two heads of the English-speaking democracies who spent 113 days together during the war, who exchanged nearly 2,000 letters. There was a kind of intimacy and a kind of closeness, and an emotional connection through five years of war that hasn't been matched at any other point in our history.

NOVAK: Jon, there seems to be an enormous amount of interest in these two long-dead statesmen. A lot of Churchill books recently, and Lord Black has got a massive new biography of Roosevelt, and your book, your excellent book, has been on the "New York Times" bestseller list for six weeks now. Why the interest? MEACHAM: I think in a time of war, in a time with tenuous alliances, with shifting alliances, people are very interested in trying to figure out whether the leaders of today have enough in common with the leaders of yesterday who brought us forward.

NOVAK: As you note in the introduction to the book, there've hundreds of books written on these two gentlemen. But you did develop a lot of new information. And the impression I get is that this friendship, though genuine, was a lot more difficult than it is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- than it is portrayed in a lot of the books. Is that a fair statement?

MEACHAM: Absolutely. I think that's right. I think Roosevelt and Churchill were ultimately ready to kill for or murder each other, which is different than most friendships. I think it was more turbulent. I don't think it was entirely political. I think that they were brought together by the force of circumstance.

They were clearly co-stars in a global drama, but they felt a lot for each other. And it was -- again, they could feel jealousy for each other, they could be angry with each other, they could wear each other out.

NOVAK: But as you make clear, Jon, Winston Churchill's motives, as he made clear to his aides, was to draw the United States into World War II to save Britain, which was in a perilous state, standing alone against the Nazi onslaught. Did it develop personally from this very practical, pragmatic beginning?

MEACHAM: Oh, absolutely. The practical, the political and the personal are inextricably linked in this relationship, there's no question about that. Churchill himself said, "No lover ever studied the whims of his mistress as I did those of President Roosevelt." But he was doing it in a cause not just of Britain, but of democracy. We forget this. Winston Churchill stood alone in London and stared across the Channel and said Hitler has gone that far and no farther.

NOVAK: Jon Meacham, many years ago, when I read Churchill's memoirs, I was kind of startled that he noted that his very emotional and personal telegram of congratulations for Roosevelt winning the 1940 election went unanswered, and you mention that in the book. But you don't really explain. Why do you think it went unanswered?

MEACHAM: I think it went unanswered because Roosevelt was essentially a cold and difficult and complex man. He hid his emotions. He often would lead people to believe one thing while he was leading someone else to believe yet another.

I think at that point, he considered himself, as he considered himself throughout the war, the senior partner, and the senior man on the scene. And he didn't need to answer his mail. And it's heartbreaking in many ways, because Churchill -- it's an amazing telegram Churchill wrote.

NOVAK: It's a beautiful telegram, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)... MEACHAM: He says, "Things are afoot which shall be spoken of as long as the English language survives in any corner of the globe." And FDR couldn't write, Thanks for your note?

NOVAK: In that connection, Jon, near the end of Roosevelt's life, he really, as you describe in the book, treats Churchill very roughly in the triangular relationship with Stalin, where kind of making fun of Churchill's desire to create a common Anglo-American front against the Soviet Union on the allied side. He was pretty rough on that, wasn't he?

MEACHAM: He was. Roosevelt believed that the postwar world would be run between Washington and Moscow, and that London would be a subsidiary player. Every bone and every vessel in Churchill's body fought against that, the idea that somehow or another Britain would not be at the center of the world stage.

NOVAK: Can you compare their relationship to the present-day relationship between President Bush and Prime Minister Blair?

MEACHAM: I think Bush and Blair were brought together by the events of the 11th and the war in Iraq in a way that feels a lot like the way Roosevelt and Churchill were brought together. They have a common purpose.

NOVAK: And now the big question for Jon Meacham, author of "Franklin and Winston."

Jon, what lessons for us, in this difficult time, do you think we can draw from this relationship of Roosevelt and Churchill?

MEACHAM: I think there are three things. I think that leaders require courage to fight fights that might be unpopular in their own countries, or in allied countries. I think there is a lesson of candor. Roosevelt and Churchill were very intent on giving the people the straight dope on what the challenges were, and therefore, were given a reciprocal vote of confidence.

And I think cooperation. Roosevelt and Churchill never left the table. They could be angry with each other, they could be put out with each other, and they could see a hopeless clash of national interests. And yet they stayed at the table because they knew that their common goal trumped whatever problems they might have together at the moment.

NOVAK: Thank you, Jon Meacham, author of "Franklin and Winston."

And thank you for being in The Novak Zone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com