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CNN Saturday Morning News

Donald Rumsfeld Says More to Come in Iraqi Prison Abuse Scandal

Aired May 08, 2004 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. Good morning. Great to you have you with us today. And welcome to CNN SATURDAY MORNING. I'm Thomas Roberts.
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Sophia Choi. If you're just waking up on the West Coast, it is 6:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m. on the East Coast.

We are standing by for a live briefing from Baghdad this hour. Major General Geoffrey Miller is the new man in charge of Iraqi prisoners. He is due to address the media shortly. You're looking at a live picture as people get ready for that briefing.

Political and tribal leaders in western Iraq have been urging the coalition to free all detainees as a gesture of good faith in the wake of the U.S. abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib jail. We'll see if Major General Geoffrey Miller addresses that question coming up.

ROBERTS: In the meantime for you, we have this for you, also coming up this hour. You hear it there? Welcome home, Tom. And, you know, it has been a long road for former American hostage Thomas Hamill. But after three weeks of captivity in Iraq, the journey back home to Macon, Mississippi, is now finally over.

An anniversary for a national landmark. For 100 years, visitors faithfully flock to an inn to see this geyser. We're going to go live to Yellowstone National Park to celebrate.

And you say your mom's a cut above the rest, huh? Well, then, she deserves something beautiful for Mother's Day. We're going to tell you how to keep those flowers blooming.

But first, want to take you back down to Iraq.

MAJ. GEN. GEOFFREY MILLER, COMMANDER, DETAINEE OPERATIONS: I'm Major General Geoff Miller. I'm the deputy commanding general of the multinational forces, Iraq, for detainee operations.

And today, I'd like to give you an update about how we have reorganized the detainee operations mission, and then take your questions about where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) where we will be going with this.

As I said, I'm the new deputy commanding general of multinational forces, Iraq, for detainee operations. And so under that responsibility, I have detention operations, interrogation operations, and the responsibility to assist in the streamlining of the process to make referrals to the central criminal court of Iraq and referrals to the common court of Iraq for Iraqi-on-Iraqi crime.

And so all those elements that work in this, be they military policemen, military intelligence, or other of our legal officers, are now under the responsibility of my organization. So I function as the Department of Defense's single point of responsibility and contact for all detainee operations in the -- in Iraq.

Thank you. Let me speak a little bit about where we will be going in the future. As I've said, I have those three responsibilities, the dimension mission, interrogation mission, the legal mission.

For the detention mission, we are reorganizing our detention efforts, both at Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca. I also have the overall responsibility for the high-value detainees who are detained at Camp Cropper. So those are the three major theater facilities.

There are 11 additional facilities that are run by our divisions and our brigades. While the division commander has responsibility for those, I have the oversight to be able to assist those units in going about implementing these missions.

I will tell you that our divisions and brigades are doing an excellent job. And our theater facilities are getting better every day, and improving. This is a commitment that we make. This is a promise that we make to ensure that we are doing our very best throughout this mission.

So these recommendations that we make will be toward the ability for us to interrogate the civilian internees and security internees to be able to make a decision, to develop them and exploit for intelligence that will help the coalition go about winning this fight that we're into free Iraq.

I'll also make the recommendations on referral of civilian internees and security internees to the legal system.

And, finally, making decisions on the release back to civilian society for civilian internees who we have deemed are not -- have not conducted attacks on the coalition.

In the intelligence area, as I said, I have overall responsibility at the theater level, multinational forces, Iraq, for the operation of our intelligence functions and interrogation.

So I've done the first part of the assessment on the interrogation process, and we have made some refinements to be able to ensure that they are both efficient and effective in going about assisting us in developing intelligence to help us win this fight in the coalition.

I will tell you that all the procedures that we use, all the processes, that we use in interrogation are within the boundaries and are sanctioned under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Our interrogation techniques are from the authorized U.S. Army manuals -- if you want to know, FM 34-52 -- that allows us to help focus our interrogation teams, called tiger teams, to ensure that we are getting the very best intelligence as rapidly as possible, but also within the requirements and boundaries that we set to ensure that we are following the provisions of the Geneva Convention.

I will tell you today that I am satisfied that that system is following the provisions of the Geneva Convention in assisting the coalition in providing actionable intelligence to help us win this fight for the freedom of Iraq.

The third area of which I have responsibility is the streamlining of the process of the referral of civilian internees and security internees into the legal system to the common -- or (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the central criminal court of Iraq for those detainees who we believe will be charged with attacks upon the coalition. And then the referral to those detainees, to the common court of Iraq, who will be charged with Iraqi-on-Iraqi crime.

Currently, we have referred 74 detainees to the central criminal court of Iraq, and approximately 520 to the common court of Iraq for Iraqi-on-Iraqi crime.

This process is working, OK, and working very well. And we are gaining experience to be able to allow us to make decisions and assessments more rapidly. So I'm very happy with where that's going, and we will get more effective and efficient in a very short period of time.

The last responsibility I have is as important as any other job that I have as the deputy commander for detainee operations. That is making the recommendations and the decisions for the transfer and release of civilian internees back to Iraqi society.

And we are working that process as rapidly as possible. This past week, we have released 300 additional civilian internees back to Iraqi society. Next week, approximately 350 additional will be released back to Iraqi society.

This is a cooperative effort between the coalition and the interim government of Iraq, the partnership that allows us to not only have confidence in our security concerns, but also ensuring that we are rapidly restoring Iraqi society to the most positive that we can.

Safety and security for Iraqis throughout our country is the coalition and the government's focus, and we will do our very best to ensure both of those of our focus and are done as rapidly and expeditiously as possible.

I'm prepared now to take your questions.

I'm first prepared to get a drink, OK?

Yes? Please speak loudly, so everyone may hear. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Halima Asadi from Am- Sharka (ph) newspaper.

Yesterday there was a meeting -- there was a discussion between Mr. Rumsfeld and the Congress, and he said that he talked about compensations to those who have suffered abuse in the detention centers. Can you give us more details about this subject, and how the amount of compensation will be determined, and will an Iraqi side or a U.S. side determine the size of this compensations? And will those who suffered abuse be able to sue those soldiers who have abused them? Thank you very much.

MILLER: Thank you for your question. We are endeavoring as quickly as possible to complete our investigations of the alleged abuses that occurred in the Abu Ghraib facility. Those are progressing rapidly, and those will come to conclusion, and we will make our recommendations for legal proceedings or other actions for the -- to the -- that are appropriate for those who are charged with either improper or criminal behavior.

To your question about compensation, General Sanchez, the commander of multinational forces, Iraq, and CJTF-7, our task force, has given me the responsibility to investigate and to develop a compensation system, and we are working at that right now. And so in the next two weeks, I will be assembling that process, and then brief General Sanchez about that.

And the process will be working up, and it will be the decisions -- or (UNINTELLIGIBLE), pardon me, the recommendations will go up to the review and release board, and as part of our review and release board, every individual that is released will be either recommended for some type of compensation, or not.

That is a standing panel that meets every day that has three colonels, three U.S. colonels currently, who will ask the interim Iraqi government and the IGC to nominate an Iraqi to come and sit on that panel so we continue to develop this coalition spirit as we move toward the transition on the 30th of June. Thank you for your question.

Next? Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General Miller, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) earlier this week, about the recommendations that you made after your team had visited here in August and September, in which I think you made a recommendation that the guard force, the role of the guard force in interrogation should be augmented. And I think your answer was, at the time, was that what you had in mind was that they passively observe the inmates and try to gather intelligence that way.

And I think one of the examples you gave was, you could see, for example, what they had for breakfast. And I wonder, the Taguba report -- and I just want to read this sentence. It says -- and it's quoting from your report. It says, "It's essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees." And they use the word "active," not passive. And I wonder, the Taguba report is very clear, General Taguba is very clear about what he thinks that sentence means. And it seems to be a lot different than what you were talking about. And I wonder, what's the discrepancy about here? And can you be a little more explicit about what you had in mind when you were recommending that the guard force be more actively engaged in setting the conditions?

MILLER: Certainly. Thank you.

As we came to Iraq to be able to conduct an assistance visit, we did that between the 31st of August and, I believe, the 9th of September of 2003. And at that time, I was the commanding general of Joint Task Force Guantanamo, and we were asked to come over -- this survey team (UNINTELLIGIBLE), assistance team they put together, to have an assessment of the intelligence development process, and interrogation, specifically about this (UNINTELLIGIBLE), both its effectiveness and its efficiency.

And so this team of about 30 subject matter experts came and looked at all the areas of intelligence development and interrogation, and also, detention, to be able to give an assessment to the theater about how they could better implement the interrogation process to develop actionable intelligence and operational intelligence.

And so, as a part of that recommendation that we made, we used our -- the models that we had developed at Guantanamo for the use of the military police, the detention force, to assist in the success of interrogation. And so consequently, as we used the -- this model for them, I'll explain that to you, so -- as I did to the leadership of both the 800th MP Brigade and the 205th MI Brigade.

And the recommendation to them -- and I state this as -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to underline this -- is that recommendation that we made was for the integration, that the military police, who run the detention facility, should be involved in passive intelligence collection.

By passive intelligence collection, that means that they observe the detainees on almost a 24-hour-a-day basis. They're there in the cell blocks, they're there in the areas, and they understand what the detainees' life is ongoing, who they spoke with, what information that they may have -- that the guards may have heard, what their mental attitude was.

And that information should be collected and then provided to the interrogation elements, the interrogation teams, to better prepare the interrogators to be able to understand the human dynamic about what kind of mood or whether information that they could bring to assist the interrogation of each detainee.

And those were spelled out in a standard operating procedure that we gave to the 800th MP Brigade and the 205th to back up our recommendations.

To be frank with you, the SOP is about 215 pages long. It's a very thick document that laid out how that JTF Guantanamo did it as a basis of comparison. It says in that SOP that the military police are never involved in active interrogation.

And so this is a clarifying point for the Taguba investigation, done very well, but this point did not come out. And so this is -- I'm glad that you asked me to clarify that point.

And so there was no recommendation ever by this team, by the team that I had here in August and September, that recommended that the MPs become actively involved in interrogation, in the interrogation booth.

The other piece that we recommended that the military police do is to transport the detainees from the detention center to the interrogation booth, give them to the interrogators, and then wait and bring them back as a part of a security arrangement. That's the same system that we have used at Guantanamo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if I could just follow up.

MILLER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I could just follow up. It says, "actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation." That seemed to suggest a much greater role than just watching the detainees. And certainly in the Taguba report, it makes clear that everybody else, including the guards, understood this phrase to mean that they take a much more aggressive role in setting the conditions. And that setting the conditions for exploitation meant roughing these guys up.

MILLER: That's your speculation, and I would absolutely and categorically disagree with that. I spoke with the leadership of both those brigades and outlined this policy that we had, and our procedures specifically. And we laid out those procedures and were very straightforward about that.

There was no doubt in my mind, when I talked to that leadership, they fully understood those recommendations, and there was no recommendation nor any of those procedures that were recommended that would follow along with any type of activity, other than what I have outlined in the -- in that.

And so I believe we will be able to give you the part of the SOP That we gave the 800th and the 205th as they used to implement or not implement those recommendations.

All the way in the back. That would be you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim Accosta (ph) with CBS News. Are there any considerations under way for the demolition of Abu Ghraib? And shouldn't it be considered as a gesture to the Iraqi people?

MILLER: Currently, we will continue to operate the Abu Ghraib facility, OK? As many of you know, we've made a decision to reduce the size, the number of detainees who are at that facility to between 1,500 and 2,000. And so we will continue to reduce the size of the detainee population. We will continue to conduct the interrogation mission at the Abu Ghraib facility. If there are decisions about removing us from that facility, then we will, in fact, move probably to our facility at Bucca to continue that mission. But currently, we have no guidance that would change the procedures that we are using today. All right?

I'm sorry. Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Stephanie Hollis (ph) with CNN. Sir, obviously the prisoner abuse scandal has created huge fallout and great damage for the U.S. forces. How great is that damage, and what are you doing to fight that and do some damage control?

MILLER: Thank you. As I said last week when we had our first opportunity for many of you to speak with me, we give our apologies to the Iraqi people. We, as the coalition, and we as American soldiers have the highest regard for maintaining the dignity of the Iraqi people. There are some very small number of leaders and soldiers who, it appears, have committed improper and in some cases illegal acts.

I will guarantee you that they will not happen. I have gone throughout every detention center and every interrogation center and laid out our standards, reaffirmed those. And so I've talked to virtually every leader and every soldier who is involved under the functions that I have responsibility for to once again validate and submit our standards and how that we will continue our operations and how that we will improve them.

What we must do now is not only use words, but our actions must demonstrate our continuing focus on this, our adherence to the Geneva Conventions, and the principles of dignity to each of those individuals who are protected individuals under the Geneva Convention. And I give you my personal guarantee that we will continue to do that, seven days a week, 24 hours day.

ROBERTS: Hearing now that actions speak louder than words, we've been listening now to Major General Geoffrey Miller. He is the new person in charge of prisoners and prisons in Iraq, calling himself the single point of contact for the Department of Defenses, and laying out exactly what his job is going to be. And that's going to be the detention, reorganization, the interrogation, and also streamlining the legal system there.

We were just listening to him talk about the possibility of compensation for Iraqi prisoners. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld mentioned that yesterday during his testimony. The major general here, talking about the fact that a compensation system could be put in place when prisoners are let go.

Fourteen prisons in all now fall under the command of Major General Geoffrey Miller.

CHOI: And also in Iraq, the U.S. isn't just trying to control the streets, it is trying to win hearts and minds. So how's it doing? An expert will join us with his take.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROBERTS: Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld said photos like the ones showing PFC Lynddie England and others engaged in abusive acts are sadistic and cruel, and says that we haven't seen the worst of it yet. The secretary issued that warning before Senate and Congressional committees in Washington yesterday.

Rumsfeld received a very public dressing-down by members of Congress. But taking the defensive, he said the search for answers should not turn into a witch hunt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't believe that it would be right for me to run around looking for scapegoats so you can toss someone over the side. And I'll be damned if I'm-- look at that list-- and pretend that I think it was badly done. I don't. I think they did a darn good job. Perfect? No. But a good job.

They announced it to the public. They told the world. They started the prosecutions. And so what am I supposed to do? Look for someone down there and say, Hey, let's heave that guy over the side? That isn't the way we do business in this country.

That's all I have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHOI: When Donald Rumsfeld spoke, the world was listening. But what is the international reaction today to the defense secretary's apology for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners?

Let's turn now to Mahmoun Fandy, senior fellow at the U.S. Institute of Peace.

Thanks for joining us.

MAHMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Thank you.

CHOI: So we know the Arab world was especially listening to Secretary Rumsfeld's comments as he testified. What is the initial reaction that you're hearing?

FANDY: I think Arab public opinion, although horrified by the pictures, was really split. There are those who emphasize a democratic system at work and emphasize that indeed the lawmakers that grilled Rumsfeld in America, yes, it has its own dirt, but there are mechanisms for cleaning that dirt, and you contrast that with Arab human rights abuses that's been there for the last 30 or 40 years with no transparency or discussion about them.

So the pro-democracy forces, those who want to have democracy in their Arab world, emphasize that point.

The antidemocratic forces, or even anti-American forces in Arab society, emphasize that there is more to come where these pictures came from, and there are more surprises and indeed, Rumsfeld represents the image of the ugly American and the cowboy and all the rest.

CHOI: And in fact, aren't they saying that his apology was too late, too little, damage done?

FANDY: I think people are not only just think that it's too little, too late, but people are questioning the idea that he will take any action, that indeed he did not come across, at least in their minds, to be genuine or sincere about that apology, and indeed some action will be taken.

CHOI: All right. Let's take a look at the big-picture impact of this mea culpa. What do you think that will be?

FANDY: Well, I think there is-- there are, again, two ways of looking at it. On one way, Americans look very confused about Iraq, and the Arabs are not terribly reassured that America will be able to put Iraq together again and create the kind of democracy that they were promised.

So that's-- that's one impact, that in the larger picture in Iraq, probably Iraq might look more like the neighborhood after the Americans leave.

There are other also big pictures that are important here, and the debate on torture in the Arab world now, that certain groups are pushing this discussion, not because they hate the Americans, but because they like to open that whole debate about torture that's been taking place on a daily basis in Arab prisons, and nobody talks about it.

So there is some silver lining under this dark cloud.

CHOI: Real quickly, so are you saying that they're realizing their own hypocrisy?

FANDY: That's correct. I mean, many columnists pointed out in the Arab press that indeed, you know, when torture is conducted by the Americans, it is big and torture, and when Arabs conduct torture, it's OK. And practically pointing out that, indeed, the American media that exposed this, and America that exposed this, and the Arabs' job is to really dig their own dirt, and show to the world that indeed they are capable of exposing their own hypocrisy.

CHOI: Mahmoun Fandy, senior fellow at the U.S. Institute of Peace. Thank you so much for your insights on this topic.

FANDY: Thank you.

ROBERTS: The headlines for you at this hour.

Former hostage Thomas Hamill returned home to Mississippi early this morning. Hamill escaped from his captors in Iraq last Sunday after more than three weeks in custody. Family friends say Hamill is relieved to be back in the U.S.

In Iraq, Paul Bremer says the abuse of Iraqi prisoners is a big problem that should have been dealt with much earlier. The top American civilian official in Iraq also said the scandal has done enormous damage to the U.S. Army.

Meanwhile, in Basra, two British soldiers were injured in clashes with Iraqi insurgents.

A German teen is under arrest this morning for his alleged involvement with the Sasser computer worm. The high school student is suspected of infecting millions of computers around the world. The Sasser worm disrupted computers in banks, hospitals, and government offices.

Stay with us, everybody. CNN SATURDAY MORNING continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHOI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for the news conference from Iraq on the prison scandal, The Novak Zone, only aired at this time, will not be seen. But tune in next week at this time for Robert Novak and a special guest.

ROBERTS: Want to take you right now, though, to Macon, Mississippi, which is probably the happiest place on earth for the people that live there today. Native son Thomas Hamill is back home with his family following a pretty harrowing ordeal in Iraq.

CNN's Mike Brooks is in Macon, joins us now live to fill us in. Hey, Mike, good morning.

MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Thomas.

Well, this is definitely the happiest place here in Mississippi. We're outside the home of Tommy Lee, of Tommy Hamill. Early this morning, he and his wife, Kellie (ph), arrived back here at their home. They arrived by private jet to Columbus, Mississippi. They came right off the plane, got into a Mississippi Highway Patrol car that brought them right to their door here of their home.

Now, Thomas, we're going show you a little bit about what's going on outside the Hamill home. The media has set up camp here. They put up police line tape yesterday to keep the media off of the front lawn. Some friends had come by to spruce the place up a little bit.

On Sunday, the volunteer fire department put an American flag over the house, after they found out that Tommy was safe. Now, some of the friends that came by to work on the house yesterday, they were using a pressure washer and had got a little bit overzealous on the side. They said they're going to come back later on today and repaint the house.

Now, Tommy Hamill has not spoken to the media since he arrived back here in the United States. In fact, he has hired a private, a public relations firm, rather, the same public relations firm that handles the affairs of Jessica Lynch. We asked them if Tommy was going to talk to the media today. They said it was doubtful, because he is more concerned about the soldiers in Iraq and the remaining hostages that have yet to be released, Thomas.

ROBERTS: Mike, I know when his wife, Kellie, ventured to Germany to be reunited with him, he asked for privacy for time to spend with his family. And I now know, now that he's gotten back to Macon, Mississippi, they had planned to do a big celebration to bring him back to town. But have they postponed that, or canceled it altogether at his request?

BROOKS: Well, right now, that's been put on hold. It probably will not be held. There's a possibility it could happen, but at a later date. Right now, he just wants to enjoy his family. He's not going to speak to the media. And some people in town were disappointed, but the mayor and the town officials said that they understand why he would want to spend some time with his family, and they're going to respect his requests, thomas.

ROBERTS: Well, we can understand. He's safe and at home, probably happy in his own bed this morning, hopefully sleeping in. Mike Brooks, live for us in Macon, Mississippi. Mike, thanks.

CHOI: Well, how do you say, Happy Mother's Day? Most likely with flowers. William Moss is here to help us keep the flowers fresher longer. We'll find out how when CNN LIVE SATURDAY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHOI: Welcome back, everybody.

You know, chances are pretty good that you're buying flowers this weekend, or you've already called and sent them to your mom and your aunt. The Society of American Florists says that more people buy fresh flowers and plants for Mother's Day than for any other holiday, with just one exception, and that's Christmas.

William Moss, though, host of the Discovery Channel's "Rally Around the House," he's got some tips for us this morning on making them last, maybe even growing our own the next time around.

Hey, William, good morning.

WILLIAM MOSS, HOST, "RALLY AROUND THE HOUSE": Good morning.

ROBERTS: All right. So start us off here, because some flowers look better than others. The cut flowers, that is, when we put them together. So which ones are the best, if we're out going to be out today scouting out a Mother's Day bouquet?

MOSS: Well, it's kind of hard to say which are the best. If you're going to the florist, then pick up anything. But if you need something, and you're going out to cut today for Mother's Day tomorrow, anything that's blooming will do. Anything that looks great. I mean, we've got here some crab-apple shrubs, we've got some lilacs, some tulips, just about anything that you can get in the garden. A fresh garden bouquet really says, Happy Mother's Day.

ROBERTS: And we really need to be careful, though, because there are certain cutting techniques that are actually going to make this flower last a little bit longer. The gift that keeps on giving, right?

MOSS: Yes, yes, there is. Whenever you cut something, whether it's a woody branch or a perennial, you want to cut on a angle. You got to use sharp scissors or sharp pruners. And I've got the sharpest. You want to cut those guys on a angle to make sure that they get the most amount of water possible. You cut them very sharp and just put them on in.

Keep them in water. One thing also that's very big is, you need to maintain these guys. Make sure you put water in every couple of days. Now, this is not artwork. This is a living piece of nature that you're bringing inside the house. So it's not going to last forever. So if you can give it a little extra water every one or two days or so, it would be great. They'll last a lot longer.

ROBERTS: Well, William, if you already bought flowers, though, from the florist, and you bring them home and you're going to arrange them, should you cut those stems under water?

MOSS: For sure. Now...

ROBERTS: For sure?

MOSS: ... definitely cut them. Now, the best way to cut them is to hold them in a sink under running water and then cut them, or in a sink of full water and cut them. That's the best way, because it keeps any air bubbles from forming in that stem, which can kind of clog up the whole process and not give you as long a flower display. So that's the best way to do it.

But if you're stuck and you can't do it, just make sure you cut it quickly and put it in water. If you can't do it under water, just do it quickly and get it in water.

ROBERTS: Right. So now once you do put it in the water, though, I know there are some old tricks out there, like, you can either add bleach to the water. I think my grandmother even used to smash up an aspirin and put it in the water to help it last a little bit longer. Are those the best things to do?

MOSS: Bleach, aspirin. Some people also use charcoal to kind of help stop the bacteria from forming. Some put sugar in or the little floral packets that come from the florist. All of that stuff works very well.

I'm going to tell you, though, I'm a low-maintenance gardener. I like to enjoy things rather than work at them. So all I do is, I cut them, I put them in water, and then every two days, I pour that water out and add some fresh water, and they last just fine.

ROBERTS: Instant gratification. So shelf life, though, if you are changing the water that regularly, how long will these last?

MOSS: Some of these things will last a good week, going into a week and a half, you know. Once again, it's not a permanent piece of artwork. You're not going to sit it there (UNINTELLIGIBLE) look good forever, like that Ming vase you have. But it's-- it will look nice for a few days. And then you throw them out and add some fresh ones.

ROBERTS: William Moss from Discovery Channel's "Rally Around the House." William, thanks so much for the tips. You've saved a lot of us some time and trouble for Mother's Day tomorrow.

MOSS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERTS: Thanks again.

MOSS: Thanks for the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for these flowers as well.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

So how about the Mother's Day gift that just keeps on giving? Well, plant your mom her own cutting garden so she can cut and arrange to her heart's content. This is pretty cool here. The best plants for that, are, of course, roses. But there are plenty of other good perennials and annuals that you can choose from out there. So if you do, good luck to you.

CHOI: Yes, what a great idea.

All right, pencils down, pass your papers forward, time's up on today's math quiz. All morning long, we've asked you to tackle this problem. Coming up, we'll check your answers.

And good morning, Atlanta. We'll have your complete weather forecast in about five minutes. CNN SATURDAY MORNING continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kathleen Hays in Washington. We're going to be "ON THE STORY" from right here in D.C., to New York, to Atlanta, all the way to New Orleans. Our correspondents from the White House and the Pentagon are talking about the prisoner abuse scandal, how it's playing in the Arab world.

I'll be talking about jobs and interest rates, and how gas prices keep climbing. We'll check in with our producer on the John Kerry campaign, and entertainment correspondent covering the final episode of "Friends," all coming up, all "ON THE STORY" at the top of the hour. Back to you.

ROBERTS: OK, Kathleen, we look forward to it. Thanks so much.

First, we want to check in with weather, though, find out what's going to happen for us this Saturday. Also let you know, coming up shortly, we unveil the confidential envelope.

CHOI: That's right.

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Oh, yes, the envelope, yes.

CHOI: So you-- everybody's got to stick around for that.

MARCIANO: I liked that little segment, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

ROBERTS: Did you do the math problem yourself, Rob?

MARCIANO: You know, I tried to figure it out, and I-- I'm not-- it doesn't make any sense. I...

CHOI: Actually, you were too busy concentrating on the weather, right, Rob?

ROBERTS: Right, changing the maps.

MARCIANO: That too.

CHOI: Yes.

MARCIANO: But I can't resist a good math problem. So I, I don't know, I'll see if I was right.

CHOI: OK.

MARCIANO: All right.

CHOI: And there's the question right (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERTS: There it is.

CHOI: Right there.

MARCIANO: I don't know, I just took 1 over 365, and then I multiplied it by 22, which gives you, like, 15 percent...

ROBERTS: All right, don't...

MARCIANO: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sounds way too high.

ROBERTS: Don't give it away.

MARCIANO: Well, that can't be right.

ROBERTS: We got Professor Mucha here. We're going to go over this in a second.

MARCIANO: All right.

ROBERTS: You're too smart.

MARCIANO: All right, kids. Let's go over, here's the nation's forecast. Cool air across the Northeast, where it was warm yesterday. Warm across the Southeast, where it was warm yesterday. And some thunderstorms across the Great Lakes. Also showers and storms possible across parts of Texas. Eighty-one Dallas, 100 in Phoenix, 75 degrees in Los Angeles, 73 degrees in Chicago, 88 in St. Louis, 89 for a high in Atlanta.

Look at these temperatures in Boston, it was 84 degrees yesterday, it only 57. Went off the ocean, cooling you down, no doubt about that.

All right, showers and storms rolling across parts of Wisconsin. Iowa saw a couple of severe thunderstorms earlier this morning. Well, just some intense rain slicing right across the central part of Michigan. Wants to dive down to Detroit and Chicago, might have a hard time doing that, but it generally will stay above the Ohio River as we go through the afternoon.

Southeast storms, mostly across the southeast coast of Texas, and give a little love to the Pacific Northwest, where you will see your typical May showers today. Temperatures will be cool across Seattle. Highs in Seattle tomorrow, Mother's Day, 63, 66 in San Fran. It'll be 68 in Los Angeles.

Still the heat across the South and the East, and a little warmer across New York, with a high tomorrow for Mom, 72 in the Big Apple.

Quick check on what's going on outside the CNN Center studios. WSB is our affiliate. And there are the beautiful buildings of midtown Atlanta. Good morning, ATL. Blue sky and temperature of about 72 degrees. But you can see a thin layer of smog down there. And ozone levels will be high, not only in Atlanta but across much of the southeast corner of the U.S., so be careful out there. Temperatures will approach 90 here in Atlanta later on today.

So Thomas, as you and Sophia walk out to your cars, give (UNINTELLIGIBLE) fan, or make sure she's OK (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

ROBERTS: I will.

CHOI: Actually, you know what? It's the opposite way.

ROBERTS: It's the opposite.

CHOI: He's been making me fan him all morning.

MARCIANO: Yes, he's a bit of a prima donna...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERTS: I know, well...

CHOI: Yes, you know, well, we all know that.

ROBERTS: It's hot in these studios, you know?

All right, Rob, thanks.

MARCIANO: OK.

CHOI: All right, now for the fun thing. All morning, we've asked you to put on your thinking caps and answer this e-mail question. We got a lot of answers to the question.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CHOI: Say you're at a birthday party with 22...

ROBERTS: Everybody's pretty smart out there, too.

CHOI: ... of your friends.

ROBERTS: Yes.

CHOI: And what are the chances that one of them has your same birthday? Also, what are the odds that any two people in that same room have that same birthday? And like Thomas said, a lot of great answers.

ROBERTS: Really have been inundated with a lot of your responses out there. I don't know if we're going to have a chance to pop one of these up, guys. There we go.

Question one, 6 percent, question 2, 50 percent. This came to us from Victor G.

CHOI: And we have to say, a lot of people got question one right, but not question two.

ROBERTS: But now we're going to get it all figured out, because the professor that was trying to stump us all morning long, he's here now, Professor Mucha joins us to fill us in.

And we have a little chart here where we've put this all out, spelled it out for everybody so we can break this down, right?

PETER MUCHA, GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY: Yes, thank you. So how did you all do? The first problem, you're right, is easier. More people will get that correct. The correct way to think about it, or the-- or, I should say, the elegant way to think about it, is to ask about the probability that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) doesn't happen, because either the event happens, or it doesn't happen, so the probability of the latter is one minus the probability of the former.

So what's the probability that your guests all show up, none of them having the same birthday that you have?

The first guest walks in with about a 364 out of 365 chance of not having your birthday. Then you multiply that by the probability that second guest comes in, also 364 out of 365 chance that they don't have your birthday.

And so on so on and so on, multiplying that factor by itself N times. So the probability that none of your guests have the same birthday that you have is the quantity 364 over 365 multiplied by itself N times, well, as we say, raised to the Nth power.

Then the probability that at least one of your guests has your birthday is one minus this quantity. So if you've got 22 guests, that works out to a probability of, as Victor said in his e-mail, just under 6 percent, 0.059, rounding a little, which is about 5.9 percent.

ROBERTS: So good job on that first question.

Mucha: So good job on the first question.

Now, the second question's got a little trick, because the event, the sharing of the birthday, doesn't have to happen to you. So we still approach the problem by asking about what the probability is that this doesn't happen. Your birthday is whenever it is. Your first guest walks in. There's a 364 out of 365 chance that they have a different birthday than you.

When the second guest walks in, there are already two birthdays taken. So the probability that they have a different birthday than the two people already in the room is 363 out of 365.

CHOI: Yes, minus one, yes.

MUCHA: And so on and so on and so on, till when the Nth guests come-- the Nth guest comes in, there's a quantity, 365 minus N divided by 365 chance...

ROBERTS: Right.

MUCHA: ... that he or she has a birthday different than the other people in the room.

ROBERTS: All right.

MUCHA: So now, the probability that there's at least one pair of people sharing a birthday is one minus this big mess. And if you've got 22 guests, that is 23 people in the room, that works out to about 0.507, or a 50.7 percent chance...

ROBERTS: So there we have it.

CHOI: And...

MUCHA: ... of there being a birthday shared.

CHOI: ... Victor was, Victor was right again.

ROBERTS: So we need, though, to open the envelope and find out exactly...

CHOI: Yes, what we did was...

ROBERTS: ... what happened with the newsroom. CHOI: Yes, we went around and asked people in the newsroom, when's your birthday? To see how this would play out in real life. So, and the envelope, sir.

ROBERTS: We've all been curious about this all morning, because we've had to look at it for the past four hours now and trying to...

CHOI: I know.

ROBERTS: ... figure what's in here. What do we got?

CHOI: With a 5.9 percent chance that someone would match the host's birthday, we had no matches. With the 50-plus percent chance of any other matches, we had one pair in the newsroom with the same birthday, J.c. and Diane.

ROBERTS: April the 11th.

CHOI: April 11. We won't divulge the year.

ROBERTS: Well, there we go.

CHOI: We had two pair in the newsroom with birthdays one day apart, too, by the way. So...

ROBERTS: That's not bad. So a belated happy birthday, though, for the April 11 birthdays out there. And pretty...

CHOI: And we should, we should say congratulations to Victor G. He got both questions right.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CHOI: He must have been a mathematician, because you said this was a...

MUCHA: This is a classic birthday probability problem. And the moral is, is that we tend to personalize these experiences. The probability that it happens to you is small. The probability that it happens in the room is large.

CHOI: All right.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CHOI: Think about other people.

ROBERTS: Is it going to be on the exam at the end of the year? Do we need to write this down? All right, Professor Mucha, thanks so much.

CHOI: Professor Mucha.

MUCHA: Thank you.

CHOI: Thank you. ROBERTS: You know what? There's still a lot more ahead today on CNN. "ON THE STORY" is next, followed by a musical edition of "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS" at 11:00. Two legendary performers are in the spotlight today, with a look at Carly Simon, also Rod Stewart. And then at noon Eastern, more on the day's top stories on "CNN LIVE SATURDAY," plus a bit of getaway to Rome, Italy. Who doesn't want to do that? That's all coming up later today, right here on CNN.

We appreciate, though, all of you joining us today this morning for CNN SATURDAY.

CHOI: I'm Sophia Choi, along with Thomas Roberts. We had a great time, hope you did too.

ROBERTS: Take care, everybody.

CHOI: We hope you learned some math too.

ROBERTS: I know I did.

CHOI: Bye-bye.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 8, 2004 - 09:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. Good morning. Great to you have you with us today. And welcome to CNN SATURDAY MORNING. I'm Thomas Roberts.
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Sophia Choi. If you're just waking up on the West Coast, it is 6:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m. on the East Coast.

We are standing by for a live briefing from Baghdad this hour. Major General Geoffrey Miller is the new man in charge of Iraqi prisoners. He is due to address the media shortly. You're looking at a live picture as people get ready for that briefing.

Political and tribal leaders in western Iraq have been urging the coalition to free all detainees as a gesture of good faith in the wake of the U.S. abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib jail. We'll see if Major General Geoffrey Miller addresses that question coming up.

ROBERTS: In the meantime for you, we have this for you, also coming up this hour. You hear it there? Welcome home, Tom. And, you know, it has been a long road for former American hostage Thomas Hamill. But after three weeks of captivity in Iraq, the journey back home to Macon, Mississippi, is now finally over.

An anniversary for a national landmark. For 100 years, visitors faithfully flock to an inn to see this geyser. We're going to go live to Yellowstone National Park to celebrate.

And you say your mom's a cut above the rest, huh? Well, then, she deserves something beautiful for Mother's Day. We're going to tell you how to keep those flowers blooming.

But first, want to take you back down to Iraq.

MAJ. GEN. GEOFFREY MILLER, COMMANDER, DETAINEE OPERATIONS: I'm Major General Geoff Miller. I'm the deputy commanding general of the multinational forces, Iraq, for detainee operations.

And today, I'd like to give you an update about how we have reorganized the detainee operations mission, and then take your questions about where (UNINTELLIGIBLE) where we will be going with this.

As I said, I'm the new deputy commanding general of multinational forces, Iraq, for detainee operations. And so under that responsibility, I have detention operations, interrogation operations, and the responsibility to assist in the streamlining of the process to make referrals to the central criminal court of Iraq and referrals to the common court of Iraq for Iraqi-on-Iraqi crime.

And so all those elements that work in this, be they military policemen, military intelligence, or other of our legal officers, are now under the responsibility of my organization. So I function as the Department of Defense's single point of responsibility and contact for all detainee operations in the -- in Iraq.

Thank you. Let me speak a little bit about where we will be going in the future. As I've said, I have those three responsibilities, the dimension mission, interrogation mission, the legal mission.

For the detention mission, we are reorganizing our detention efforts, both at Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca. I also have the overall responsibility for the high-value detainees who are detained at Camp Cropper. So those are the three major theater facilities.

There are 11 additional facilities that are run by our divisions and our brigades. While the division commander has responsibility for those, I have the oversight to be able to assist those units in going about implementing these missions.

I will tell you that our divisions and brigades are doing an excellent job. And our theater facilities are getting better every day, and improving. This is a commitment that we make. This is a promise that we make to ensure that we are doing our very best throughout this mission.

So these recommendations that we make will be toward the ability for us to interrogate the civilian internees and security internees to be able to make a decision, to develop them and exploit for intelligence that will help the coalition go about winning this fight that we're into free Iraq.

I'll also make the recommendations on referral of civilian internees and security internees to the legal system.

And, finally, making decisions on the release back to civilian society for civilian internees who we have deemed are not -- have not conducted attacks on the coalition.

In the intelligence area, as I said, I have overall responsibility at the theater level, multinational forces, Iraq, for the operation of our intelligence functions and interrogation.

So I've done the first part of the assessment on the interrogation process, and we have made some refinements to be able to ensure that they are both efficient and effective in going about assisting us in developing intelligence to help us win this fight in the coalition.

I will tell you that all the procedures that we use, all the processes, that we use in interrogation are within the boundaries and are sanctioned under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Our interrogation techniques are from the authorized U.S. Army manuals -- if you want to know, FM 34-52 -- that allows us to help focus our interrogation teams, called tiger teams, to ensure that we are getting the very best intelligence as rapidly as possible, but also within the requirements and boundaries that we set to ensure that we are following the provisions of the Geneva Convention.

I will tell you today that I am satisfied that that system is following the provisions of the Geneva Convention in assisting the coalition in providing actionable intelligence to help us win this fight for the freedom of Iraq.

The third area of which I have responsibility is the streamlining of the process of the referral of civilian internees and security internees into the legal system to the common -- or (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the central criminal court of Iraq for those detainees who we believe will be charged with attacks upon the coalition. And then the referral to those detainees, to the common court of Iraq, who will be charged with Iraqi-on-Iraqi crime.

Currently, we have referred 74 detainees to the central criminal court of Iraq, and approximately 520 to the common court of Iraq for Iraqi-on-Iraqi crime.

This process is working, OK, and working very well. And we are gaining experience to be able to allow us to make decisions and assessments more rapidly. So I'm very happy with where that's going, and we will get more effective and efficient in a very short period of time.

The last responsibility I have is as important as any other job that I have as the deputy commander for detainee operations. That is making the recommendations and the decisions for the transfer and release of civilian internees back to Iraqi society.

And we are working that process as rapidly as possible. This past week, we have released 300 additional civilian internees back to Iraqi society. Next week, approximately 350 additional will be released back to Iraqi society.

This is a cooperative effort between the coalition and the interim government of Iraq, the partnership that allows us to not only have confidence in our security concerns, but also ensuring that we are rapidly restoring Iraqi society to the most positive that we can.

Safety and security for Iraqis throughout our country is the coalition and the government's focus, and we will do our very best to ensure both of those of our focus and are done as rapidly and expeditiously as possible.

I'm prepared now to take your questions.

I'm first prepared to get a drink, OK?

Yes? Please speak loudly, so everyone may hear. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Halima Asadi from Am- Sharka (ph) newspaper.

Yesterday there was a meeting -- there was a discussion between Mr. Rumsfeld and the Congress, and he said that he talked about compensations to those who have suffered abuse in the detention centers. Can you give us more details about this subject, and how the amount of compensation will be determined, and will an Iraqi side or a U.S. side determine the size of this compensations? And will those who suffered abuse be able to sue those soldiers who have abused them? Thank you very much.

MILLER: Thank you for your question. We are endeavoring as quickly as possible to complete our investigations of the alleged abuses that occurred in the Abu Ghraib facility. Those are progressing rapidly, and those will come to conclusion, and we will make our recommendations for legal proceedings or other actions for the -- to the -- that are appropriate for those who are charged with either improper or criminal behavior.

To your question about compensation, General Sanchez, the commander of multinational forces, Iraq, and CJTF-7, our task force, has given me the responsibility to investigate and to develop a compensation system, and we are working at that right now. And so in the next two weeks, I will be assembling that process, and then brief General Sanchez about that.

And the process will be working up, and it will be the decisions -- or (UNINTELLIGIBLE), pardon me, the recommendations will go up to the review and release board, and as part of our review and release board, every individual that is released will be either recommended for some type of compensation, or not.

That is a standing panel that meets every day that has three colonels, three U.S. colonels currently, who will ask the interim Iraqi government and the IGC to nominate an Iraqi to come and sit on that panel so we continue to develop this coalition spirit as we move toward the transition on the 30th of June. Thank you for your question.

Next? Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General Miller, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) earlier this week, about the recommendations that you made after your team had visited here in August and September, in which I think you made a recommendation that the guard force, the role of the guard force in interrogation should be augmented. And I think your answer was, at the time, was that what you had in mind was that they passively observe the inmates and try to gather intelligence that way.

And I think one of the examples you gave was, you could see, for example, what they had for breakfast. And I wonder, the Taguba report -- and I just want to read this sentence. It says -- and it's quoting from your report. It says, "It's essential that the guard force be actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees." And they use the word "active," not passive. And I wonder, the Taguba report is very clear, General Taguba is very clear about what he thinks that sentence means. And it seems to be a lot different than what you were talking about. And I wonder, what's the discrepancy about here? And can you be a little more explicit about what you had in mind when you were recommending that the guard force be more actively engaged in setting the conditions?

MILLER: Certainly. Thank you.

As we came to Iraq to be able to conduct an assistance visit, we did that between the 31st of August and, I believe, the 9th of September of 2003. And at that time, I was the commanding general of Joint Task Force Guantanamo, and we were asked to come over -- this survey team (UNINTELLIGIBLE), assistance team they put together, to have an assessment of the intelligence development process, and interrogation, specifically about this (UNINTELLIGIBLE), both its effectiveness and its efficiency.

And so this team of about 30 subject matter experts came and looked at all the areas of intelligence development and interrogation, and also, detention, to be able to give an assessment to the theater about how they could better implement the interrogation process to develop actionable intelligence and operational intelligence.

And so, as a part of that recommendation that we made, we used our -- the models that we had developed at Guantanamo for the use of the military police, the detention force, to assist in the success of interrogation. And so consequently, as we used the -- this model for them, I'll explain that to you, so -- as I did to the leadership of both the 800th MP Brigade and the 205th MI Brigade.

And the recommendation to them -- and I state this as -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to underline this -- is that recommendation that we made was for the integration, that the military police, who run the detention facility, should be involved in passive intelligence collection.

By passive intelligence collection, that means that they observe the detainees on almost a 24-hour-a-day basis. They're there in the cell blocks, they're there in the areas, and they understand what the detainees' life is ongoing, who they spoke with, what information that they may have -- that the guards may have heard, what their mental attitude was.

And that information should be collected and then provided to the interrogation elements, the interrogation teams, to better prepare the interrogators to be able to understand the human dynamic about what kind of mood or whether information that they could bring to assist the interrogation of each detainee.

And those were spelled out in a standard operating procedure that we gave to the 800th MP Brigade and the 205th to back up our recommendations.

To be frank with you, the SOP is about 215 pages long. It's a very thick document that laid out how that JTF Guantanamo did it as a basis of comparison. It says in that SOP that the military police are never involved in active interrogation.

And so this is a clarifying point for the Taguba investigation, done very well, but this point did not come out. And so this is -- I'm glad that you asked me to clarify that point.

And so there was no recommendation ever by this team, by the team that I had here in August and September, that recommended that the MPs become actively involved in interrogation, in the interrogation booth.

The other piece that we recommended that the military police do is to transport the detainees from the detention center to the interrogation booth, give them to the interrogators, and then wait and bring them back as a part of a security arrangement. That's the same system that we have used at Guantanamo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if I could just follow up.

MILLER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I could just follow up. It says, "actively engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation." That seemed to suggest a much greater role than just watching the detainees. And certainly in the Taguba report, it makes clear that everybody else, including the guards, understood this phrase to mean that they take a much more aggressive role in setting the conditions. And that setting the conditions for exploitation meant roughing these guys up.

MILLER: That's your speculation, and I would absolutely and categorically disagree with that. I spoke with the leadership of both those brigades and outlined this policy that we had, and our procedures specifically. And we laid out those procedures and were very straightforward about that.

There was no doubt in my mind, when I talked to that leadership, they fully understood those recommendations, and there was no recommendation nor any of those procedures that were recommended that would follow along with any type of activity, other than what I have outlined in the -- in that.

And so I believe we will be able to give you the part of the SOP That we gave the 800th and the 205th as they used to implement or not implement those recommendations.

All the way in the back. That would be you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim Accosta (ph) with CBS News. Are there any considerations under way for the demolition of Abu Ghraib? And shouldn't it be considered as a gesture to the Iraqi people?

MILLER: Currently, we will continue to operate the Abu Ghraib facility, OK? As many of you know, we've made a decision to reduce the size, the number of detainees who are at that facility to between 1,500 and 2,000. And so we will continue to reduce the size of the detainee population. We will continue to conduct the interrogation mission at the Abu Ghraib facility. If there are decisions about removing us from that facility, then we will, in fact, move probably to our facility at Bucca to continue that mission. But currently, we have no guidance that would change the procedures that we are using today. All right?

I'm sorry. Yes, ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Stephanie Hollis (ph) with CNN. Sir, obviously the prisoner abuse scandal has created huge fallout and great damage for the U.S. forces. How great is that damage, and what are you doing to fight that and do some damage control?

MILLER: Thank you. As I said last week when we had our first opportunity for many of you to speak with me, we give our apologies to the Iraqi people. We, as the coalition, and we as American soldiers have the highest regard for maintaining the dignity of the Iraqi people. There are some very small number of leaders and soldiers who, it appears, have committed improper and in some cases illegal acts.

I will guarantee you that they will not happen. I have gone throughout every detention center and every interrogation center and laid out our standards, reaffirmed those. And so I've talked to virtually every leader and every soldier who is involved under the functions that I have responsibility for to once again validate and submit our standards and how that we will continue our operations and how that we will improve them.

What we must do now is not only use words, but our actions must demonstrate our continuing focus on this, our adherence to the Geneva Conventions, and the principles of dignity to each of those individuals who are protected individuals under the Geneva Convention. And I give you my personal guarantee that we will continue to do that, seven days a week, 24 hours day.

ROBERTS: Hearing now that actions speak louder than words, we've been listening now to Major General Geoffrey Miller. He is the new person in charge of prisoners and prisons in Iraq, calling himself the single point of contact for the Department of Defenses, and laying out exactly what his job is going to be. And that's going to be the detention, reorganization, the interrogation, and also streamlining the legal system there.

We were just listening to him talk about the possibility of compensation for Iraqi prisoners. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld mentioned that yesterday during his testimony. The major general here, talking about the fact that a compensation system could be put in place when prisoners are let go.

Fourteen prisons in all now fall under the command of Major General Geoffrey Miller.

CHOI: And also in Iraq, the U.S. isn't just trying to control the streets, it is trying to win hearts and minds. So how's it doing? An expert will join us with his take.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROBERTS: Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld said photos like the ones showing PFC Lynddie England and others engaged in abusive acts are sadistic and cruel, and says that we haven't seen the worst of it yet. The secretary issued that warning before Senate and Congressional committees in Washington yesterday.

Rumsfeld received a very public dressing-down by members of Congress. But taking the defensive, he said the search for answers should not turn into a witch hunt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't believe that it would be right for me to run around looking for scapegoats so you can toss someone over the side. And I'll be damned if I'm-- look at that list-- and pretend that I think it was badly done. I don't. I think they did a darn good job. Perfect? No. But a good job.

They announced it to the public. They told the world. They started the prosecutions. And so what am I supposed to do? Look for someone down there and say, Hey, let's heave that guy over the side? That isn't the way we do business in this country.

That's all I have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHOI: When Donald Rumsfeld spoke, the world was listening. But what is the international reaction today to the defense secretary's apology for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners?

Let's turn now to Mahmoun Fandy, senior fellow at the U.S. Institute of Peace.

Thanks for joining us.

MAHMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Thank you.

CHOI: So we know the Arab world was especially listening to Secretary Rumsfeld's comments as he testified. What is the initial reaction that you're hearing?

FANDY: I think Arab public opinion, although horrified by the pictures, was really split. There are those who emphasize a democratic system at work and emphasize that indeed the lawmakers that grilled Rumsfeld in America, yes, it has its own dirt, but there are mechanisms for cleaning that dirt, and you contrast that with Arab human rights abuses that's been there for the last 30 or 40 years with no transparency or discussion about them.

So the pro-democracy forces, those who want to have democracy in their Arab world, emphasize that point.

The antidemocratic forces, or even anti-American forces in Arab society, emphasize that there is more to come where these pictures came from, and there are more surprises and indeed, Rumsfeld represents the image of the ugly American and the cowboy and all the rest.

CHOI: And in fact, aren't they saying that his apology was too late, too little, damage done?

FANDY: I think people are not only just think that it's too little, too late, but people are questioning the idea that he will take any action, that indeed he did not come across, at least in their minds, to be genuine or sincere about that apology, and indeed some action will be taken.

CHOI: All right. Let's take a look at the big-picture impact of this mea culpa. What do you think that will be?

FANDY: Well, I think there is-- there are, again, two ways of looking at it. On one way, Americans look very confused about Iraq, and the Arabs are not terribly reassured that America will be able to put Iraq together again and create the kind of democracy that they were promised.

So that's-- that's one impact, that in the larger picture in Iraq, probably Iraq might look more like the neighborhood after the Americans leave.

There are other also big pictures that are important here, and the debate on torture in the Arab world now, that certain groups are pushing this discussion, not because they hate the Americans, but because they like to open that whole debate about torture that's been taking place on a daily basis in Arab prisons, and nobody talks about it.

So there is some silver lining under this dark cloud.

CHOI: Real quickly, so are you saying that they're realizing their own hypocrisy?

FANDY: That's correct. I mean, many columnists pointed out in the Arab press that indeed, you know, when torture is conducted by the Americans, it is big and torture, and when Arabs conduct torture, it's OK. And practically pointing out that, indeed, the American media that exposed this, and America that exposed this, and the Arabs' job is to really dig their own dirt, and show to the world that indeed they are capable of exposing their own hypocrisy.

CHOI: Mahmoun Fandy, senior fellow at the U.S. Institute of Peace. Thank you so much for your insights on this topic.

FANDY: Thank you.

ROBERTS: The headlines for you at this hour.

Former hostage Thomas Hamill returned home to Mississippi early this morning. Hamill escaped from his captors in Iraq last Sunday after more than three weeks in custody. Family friends say Hamill is relieved to be back in the U.S.

In Iraq, Paul Bremer says the abuse of Iraqi prisoners is a big problem that should have been dealt with much earlier. The top American civilian official in Iraq also said the scandal has done enormous damage to the U.S. Army.

Meanwhile, in Basra, two British soldiers were injured in clashes with Iraqi insurgents.

A German teen is under arrest this morning for his alleged involvement with the Sasser computer worm. The high school student is suspected of infecting millions of computers around the world. The Sasser worm disrupted computers in banks, hospitals, and government offices.

Stay with us, everybody. CNN SATURDAY MORNING continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHOI: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for the news conference from Iraq on the prison scandal, The Novak Zone, only aired at this time, will not be seen. But tune in next week at this time for Robert Novak and a special guest.

ROBERTS: Want to take you right now, though, to Macon, Mississippi, which is probably the happiest place on earth for the people that live there today. Native son Thomas Hamill is back home with his family following a pretty harrowing ordeal in Iraq.

CNN's Mike Brooks is in Macon, joins us now live to fill us in. Hey, Mike, good morning.

MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Thomas.

Well, this is definitely the happiest place here in Mississippi. We're outside the home of Tommy Lee, of Tommy Hamill. Early this morning, he and his wife, Kellie (ph), arrived back here at their home. They arrived by private jet to Columbus, Mississippi. They came right off the plane, got into a Mississippi Highway Patrol car that brought them right to their door here of their home.

Now, Thomas, we're going show you a little bit about what's going on outside the Hamill home. The media has set up camp here. They put up police line tape yesterday to keep the media off of the front lawn. Some friends had come by to spruce the place up a little bit.

On Sunday, the volunteer fire department put an American flag over the house, after they found out that Tommy was safe. Now, some of the friends that came by to work on the house yesterday, they were using a pressure washer and had got a little bit overzealous on the side. They said they're going to come back later on today and repaint the house.

Now, Tommy Hamill has not spoken to the media since he arrived back here in the United States. In fact, he has hired a private, a public relations firm, rather, the same public relations firm that handles the affairs of Jessica Lynch. We asked them if Tommy was going to talk to the media today. They said it was doubtful, because he is more concerned about the soldiers in Iraq and the remaining hostages that have yet to be released, Thomas.

ROBERTS: Mike, I know when his wife, Kellie, ventured to Germany to be reunited with him, he asked for privacy for time to spend with his family. And I now know, now that he's gotten back to Macon, Mississippi, they had planned to do a big celebration to bring him back to town. But have they postponed that, or canceled it altogether at his request?

BROOKS: Well, right now, that's been put on hold. It probably will not be held. There's a possibility it could happen, but at a later date. Right now, he just wants to enjoy his family. He's not going to speak to the media. And some people in town were disappointed, but the mayor and the town officials said that they understand why he would want to spend some time with his family, and they're going to respect his requests, thomas.

ROBERTS: Well, we can understand. He's safe and at home, probably happy in his own bed this morning, hopefully sleeping in. Mike Brooks, live for us in Macon, Mississippi. Mike, thanks.

CHOI: Well, how do you say, Happy Mother's Day? Most likely with flowers. William Moss is here to help us keep the flowers fresher longer. We'll find out how when CNN LIVE SATURDAY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHOI: Welcome back, everybody.

You know, chances are pretty good that you're buying flowers this weekend, or you've already called and sent them to your mom and your aunt. The Society of American Florists says that more people buy fresh flowers and plants for Mother's Day than for any other holiday, with just one exception, and that's Christmas.

William Moss, though, host of the Discovery Channel's "Rally Around the House," he's got some tips for us this morning on making them last, maybe even growing our own the next time around.

Hey, William, good morning.

WILLIAM MOSS, HOST, "RALLY AROUND THE HOUSE": Good morning.

ROBERTS: All right. So start us off here, because some flowers look better than others. The cut flowers, that is, when we put them together. So which ones are the best, if we're out going to be out today scouting out a Mother's Day bouquet?

MOSS: Well, it's kind of hard to say which are the best. If you're going to the florist, then pick up anything. But if you need something, and you're going out to cut today for Mother's Day tomorrow, anything that's blooming will do. Anything that looks great. I mean, we've got here some crab-apple shrubs, we've got some lilacs, some tulips, just about anything that you can get in the garden. A fresh garden bouquet really says, Happy Mother's Day.

ROBERTS: And we really need to be careful, though, because there are certain cutting techniques that are actually going to make this flower last a little bit longer. The gift that keeps on giving, right?

MOSS: Yes, yes, there is. Whenever you cut something, whether it's a woody branch or a perennial, you want to cut on a angle. You got to use sharp scissors or sharp pruners. And I've got the sharpest. You want to cut those guys on a angle to make sure that they get the most amount of water possible. You cut them very sharp and just put them on in.

Keep them in water. One thing also that's very big is, you need to maintain these guys. Make sure you put water in every couple of days. Now, this is not artwork. This is a living piece of nature that you're bringing inside the house. So it's not going to last forever. So if you can give it a little extra water every one or two days or so, it would be great. They'll last a lot longer.

ROBERTS: Well, William, if you already bought flowers, though, from the florist, and you bring them home and you're going to arrange them, should you cut those stems under water?

MOSS: For sure. Now...

ROBERTS: For sure?

MOSS: ... definitely cut them. Now, the best way to cut them is to hold them in a sink under running water and then cut them, or in a sink of full water and cut them. That's the best way, because it keeps any air bubbles from forming in that stem, which can kind of clog up the whole process and not give you as long a flower display. So that's the best way to do it.

But if you're stuck and you can't do it, just make sure you cut it quickly and put it in water. If you can't do it under water, just do it quickly and get it in water.

ROBERTS: Right. So now once you do put it in the water, though, I know there are some old tricks out there, like, you can either add bleach to the water. I think my grandmother even used to smash up an aspirin and put it in the water to help it last a little bit longer. Are those the best things to do?

MOSS: Bleach, aspirin. Some people also use charcoal to kind of help stop the bacteria from forming. Some put sugar in or the little floral packets that come from the florist. All of that stuff works very well.

I'm going to tell you, though, I'm a low-maintenance gardener. I like to enjoy things rather than work at them. So all I do is, I cut them, I put them in water, and then every two days, I pour that water out and add some fresh water, and they last just fine.

ROBERTS: Instant gratification. So shelf life, though, if you are changing the water that regularly, how long will these last?

MOSS: Some of these things will last a good week, going into a week and a half, you know. Once again, it's not a permanent piece of artwork. You're not going to sit it there (UNINTELLIGIBLE) look good forever, like that Ming vase you have. But it's-- it will look nice for a few days. And then you throw them out and add some fresh ones.

ROBERTS: William Moss from Discovery Channel's "Rally Around the House." William, thanks so much for the tips. You've saved a lot of us some time and trouble for Mother's Day tomorrow.

MOSS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERTS: Thanks again.

MOSS: Thanks for the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for these flowers as well.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

So how about the Mother's Day gift that just keeps on giving? Well, plant your mom her own cutting garden so she can cut and arrange to her heart's content. This is pretty cool here. The best plants for that, are, of course, roses. But there are plenty of other good perennials and annuals that you can choose from out there. So if you do, good luck to you.

CHOI: Yes, what a great idea.

All right, pencils down, pass your papers forward, time's up on today's math quiz. All morning long, we've asked you to tackle this problem. Coming up, we'll check your answers.

And good morning, Atlanta. We'll have your complete weather forecast in about five minutes. CNN SATURDAY MORNING continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kathleen Hays in Washington. We're going to be "ON THE STORY" from right here in D.C., to New York, to Atlanta, all the way to New Orleans. Our correspondents from the White House and the Pentagon are talking about the prisoner abuse scandal, how it's playing in the Arab world.

I'll be talking about jobs and interest rates, and how gas prices keep climbing. We'll check in with our producer on the John Kerry campaign, and entertainment correspondent covering the final episode of "Friends," all coming up, all "ON THE STORY" at the top of the hour. Back to you.

ROBERTS: OK, Kathleen, we look forward to it. Thanks so much.

First, we want to check in with weather, though, find out what's going to happen for us this Saturday. Also let you know, coming up shortly, we unveil the confidential envelope.

CHOI: That's right.

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Oh, yes, the envelope, yes.

CHOI: So you-- everybody's got to stick around for that.

MARCIANO: I liked that little segment, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

ROBERTS: Did you do the math problem yourself, Rob?

MARCIANO: You know, I tried to figure it out, and I-- I'm not-- it doesn't make any sense. I...

CHOI: Actually, you were too busy concentrating on the weather, right, Rob?

ROBERTS: Right, changing the maps.

MARCIANO: That too.

CHOI: Yes.

MARCIANO: But I can't resist a good math problem. So I, I don't know, I'll see if I was right.

CHOI: OK.

MARCIANO: All right.

CHOI: And there's the question right (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERTS: There it is.

CHOI: Right there.

MARCIANO: I don't know, I just took 1 over 365, and then I multiplied it by 22, which gives you, like, 15 percent...

ROBERTS: All right, don't...

MARCIANO: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sounds way too high.

ROBERTS: Don't give it away.

MARCIANO: Well, that can't be right.

ROBERTS: We got Professor Mucha here. We're going to go over this in a second.

MARCIANO: All right.

ROBERTS: You're too smart.

MARCIANO: All right, kids. Let's go over, here's the nation's forecast. Cool air across the Northeast, where it was warm yesterday. Warm across the Southeast, where it was warm yesterday. And some thunderstorms across the Great Lakes. Also showers and storms possible across parts of Texas. Eighty-one Dallas, 100 in Phoenix, 75 degrees in Los Angeles, 73 degrees in Chicago, 88 in St. Louis, 89 for a high in Atlanta.

Look at these temperatures in Boston, it was 84 degrees yesterday, it only 57. Went off the ocean, cooling you down, no doubt about that.

All right, showers and storms rolling across parts of Wisconsin. Iowa saw a couple of severe thunderstorms earlier this morning. Well, just some intense rain slicing right across the central part of Michigan. Wants to dive down to Detroit and Chicago, might have a hard time doing that, but it generally will stay above the Ohio River as we go through the afternoon.

Southeast storms, mostly across the southeast coast of Texas, and give a little love to the Pacific Northwest, where you will see your typical May showers today. Temperatures will be cool across Seattle. Highs in Seattle tomorrow, Mother's Day, 63, 66 in San Fran. It'll be 68 in Los Angeles.

Still the heat across the South and the East, and a little warmer across New York, with a high tomorrow for Mom, 72 in the Big Apple.

Quick check on what's going on outside the CNN Center studios. WSB is our affiliate. And there are the beautiful buildings of midtown Atlanta. Good morning, ATL. Blue sky and temperature of about 72 degrees. But you can see a thin layer of smog down there. And ozone levels will be high, not only in Atlanta but across much of the southeast corner of the U.S., so be careful out there. Temperatures will approach 90 here in Atlanta later on today.

So Thomas, as you and Sophia walk out to your cars, give (UNINTELLIGIBLE) fan, or make sure she's OK (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

ROBERTS: I will.

CHOI: Actually, you know what? It's the opposite way.

ROBERTS: It's the opposite.

CHOI: He's been making me fan him all morning.

MARCIANO: Yes, he's a bit of a prima donna...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERTS: I know, well...

CHOI: Yes, you know, well, we all know that.

ROBERTS: It's hot in these studios, you know?

All right, Rob, thanks.

MARCIANO: OK.

CHOI: All right, now for the fun thing. All morning, we've asked you to put on your thinking caps and answer this e-mail question. We got a lot of answers to the question.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

CHOI: Say you're at a birthday party with 22...

ROBERTS: Everybody's pretty smart out there, too.

CHOI: ... of your friends.

ROBERTS: Yes.

CHOI: And what are the chances that one of them has your same birthday? Also, what are the odds that any two people in that same room have that same birthday? And like Thomas said, a lot of great answers.

ROBERTS: Really have been inundated with a lot of your responses out there. I don't know if we're going to have a chance to pop one of these up, guys. There we go.

Question one, 6 percent, question 2, 50 percent. This came to us from Victor G.

CHOI: And we have to say, a lot of people got question one right, but not question two.

ROBERTS: But now we're going to get it all figured out, because the professor that was trying to stump us all morning long, he's here now, Professor Mucha joins us to fill us in.

And we have a little chart here where we've put this all out, spelled it out for everybody so we can break this down, right?

PETER MUCHA, GEORGIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY: Yes, thank you. So how did you all do? The first problem, you're right, is easier. More people will get that correct. The correct way to think about it, or the-- or, I should say, the elegant way to think about it, is to ask about the probability that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) doesn't happen, because either the event happens, or it doesn't happen, so the probability of the latter is one minus the probability of the former.

So what's the probability that your guests all show up, none of them having the same birthday that you have?

The first guest walks in with about a 364 out of 365 chance of not having your birthday. Then you multiply that by the probability that second guest comes in, also 364 out of 365 chance that they don't have your birthday.

And so on so on and so on, multiplying that factor by itself N times. So the probability that none of your guests have the same birthday that you have is the quantity 364 over 365 multiplied by itself N times, well, as we say, raised to the Nth power.

Then the probability that at least one of your guests has your birthday is one minus this quantity. So if you've got 22 guests, that works out to a probability of, as Victor said in his e-mail, just under 6 percent, 0.059, rounding a little, which is about 5.9 percent.

ROBERTS: So good job on that first question.

Mucha: So good job on the first question.

Now, the second question's got a little trick, because the event, the sharing of the birthday, doesn't have to happen to you. So we still approach the problem by asking about what the probability is that this doesn't happen. Your birthday is whenever it is. Your first guest walks in. There's a 364 out of 365 chance that they have a different birthday than you.

When the second guest walks in, there are already two birthdays taken. So the probability that they have a different birthday than the two people already in the room is 363 out of 365.

CHOI: Yes, minus one, yes.

MUCHA: And so on and so on and so on, till when the Nth guests come-- the Nth guest comes in, there's a quantity, 365 minus N divided by 365 chance...

ROBERTS: Right.

MUCHA: ... that he or she has a birthday different than the other people in the room.

ROBERTS: All right.

MUCHA: So now, the probability that there's at least one pair of people sharing a birthday is one minus this big mess. And if you've got 22 guests, that is 23 people in the room, that works out to about 0.507, or a 50.7 percent chance...

ROBERTS: So there we have it.

CHOI: And...

MUCHA: ... of there being a birthday shared.

CHOI: ... Victor was, Victor was right again.

ROBERTS: So we need, though, to open the envelope and find out exactly...

CHOI: Yes, what we did was...

ROBERTS: ... what happened with the newsroom. CHOI: Yes, we went around and asked people in the newsroom, when's your birthday? To see how this would play out in real life. So, and the envelope, sir.

ROBERTS: We've all been curious about this all morning, because we've had to look at it for the past four hours now and trying to...

CHOI: I know.

ROBERTS: ... figure what's in here. What do we got?

CHOI: With a 5.9 percent chance that someone would match the host's birthday, we had no matches. With the 50-plus percent chance of any other matches, we had one pair in the newsroom with the same birthday, J.c. and Diane.

ROBERTS: April the 11th.

CHOI: April 11. We won't divulge the year.

ROBERTS: Well, there we go.

CHOI: We had two pair in the newsroom with birthdays one day apart, too, by the way. So...

ROBERTS: That's not bad. So a belated happy birthday, though, for the April 11 birthdays out there. And pretty...

CHOI: And we should, we should say congratulations to Victor G. He got both questions right.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CHOI: He must have been a mathematician, because you said this was a...

MUCHA: This is a classic birthday probability problem. And the moral is, is that we tend to personalize these experiences. The probability that it happens to you is small. The probability that it happens in the room is large.

CHOI: All right.

ROBERTS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CHOI: Think about other people.

ROBERTS: Is it going to be on the exam at the end of the year? Do we need to write this down? All right, Professor Mucha, thanks so much.

CHOI: Professor Mucha.

MUCHA: Thank you.

CHOI: Thank you. ROBERTS: You know what? There's still a lot more ahead today on CNN. "ON THE STORY" is next, followed by a musical edition of "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS" at 11:00. Two legendary performers are in the spotlight today, with a look at Carly Simon, also Rod Stewart. And then at noon Eastern, more on the day's top stories on "CNN LIVE SATURDAY," plus a bit of getaway to Rome, Italy. Who doesn't want to do that? That's all coming up later today, right here on CNN.

We appreciate, though, all of you joining us today this morning for CNN SATURDAY.

CHOI: I'm Sophia Choi, along with Thomas Roberts. We had a great time, hope you did too.

ROBERTS: Take care, everybody.

CHOI: We hope you learned some math too.

ROBERTS: I know I did.

CHOI: Bye-bye.

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