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CNN Saturday Morning News
Special Edition: Pope John Paul II
Aired April 02, 2005 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Bill Hemmer live in Rome, Italy. At any moment now, we should get an update on the condition of Pope John Paul II as this special edition of CNN'S AMERICAN MORNING continues at this hour.
ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and the CNN broadcast center in New York and Bill Hemmer in Rome.
HEMMER: It is 6:00 in the evening here in Rome. Thanks for being along with us today on this special edition of CNN's AMERICAN MORNING.
We mentioned many times in the past hour that we will get this statement and we do believe that will be the case. We're watching Vatican Television because at one point we thought it would be would a simple paper statement and now we're under the impression that it will be on camera statement possibly followed by reporter questions. But again, we're waiting to find out if indeed that will be the case. It should happen at any time.
In the meantime though, they are coming by the thousands here in Vatican City. Throughout St. Peter's Square, well over 30,000 now gathered on this Saturday evening. They wait as we wait for the latest word on the condition on Pope John Paul II.
I'm here in Rome. Soledad is back in New York. And Soledad, good morning again to you.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning to you, Bill. And in fact, as we wait for the latest on the pope's health, here's what's happening. The most recent bulletin was more than six hours ago when the Vatican said that the pope's heart and breathing were unchanged since Friday. For a second day, the Vatican announced a series of papal appointments, including a Spanish bishop, two ambassadors as well. And in his weekly radio address, President Bush calls the pope a champion of human dignity and freedom. Much more from New York as we go along this morning. Carol Costello with me, as well, but let's go back to Bill Hemmer in Rome -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad, thank you. Back to Jim Bittermann as well who's been watching and waiting along with me.
Jim, I don't know if you have heard better clarification or not but when this statement comes, do we have any firm indication as to how it will be received? JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, we don't, and judging from past performance, just about anything could happen. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the papal spokesman, is very well-known for coming out saying he's going to just deliver a statement and then asking and -- or taking questions, as he did, in fact, this morning because he really didn't say he was going to take questions this morning, but then he did. Also, the Vatican has this way of saying that they're going to issue a medical bulletin. Well, in Italian, a bulletin can be just a piece of paper. So in fact, that's the way it could come out, as well. So we're not real clear on how this is going to work.
I'd like to go back to -- just to something that you and Soledad were talking about in the last hour, and that is this interview with Edmund Szoka, who is from Grand Rapids, Michigan, the governor general of the Vatican, and a long time collaborator of the pope and someone who speaks Polish, it should be said. It's interesting what happened with Szoka this morning. He was called by Archbishop Dziwisz, who is the pope's personal secretary, and told to come over to the Vatican. And it seemed almost as if Dziwisz has been going through a list of cardinals and asking them to come see the pope. One of the cardinals came out. And Szoka came out saying he thought the pope was conscious and seemed lucid and seemed responsive to his visit. One of the other cardinals who was over there this morning said that, in fact, he thought it was an opportunity or it seemed like a situation where he was bidding his last farewell to the pope. So that would give us a kind of an idea of what's been going on. A number of people come in to visit the pope, and as Cardinal Szoka did, to briefly meet with him, say a prayer, to give a blessing and that sort of thing -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Bittermann, thanks for that. Jim Bitterman with me here in Rome as well, and talking with so many people who have gathered here throughout the day. One 27-year-old Italian student said, "This is a person I hope who's going to a better place and a better life." We know the suffering this man has endured, very publicly, too. If we go back to four days ago and Wednesday, when he came to the open window high above Vatican -- the Vatican -- St. Peter's Square here in Vatican City and clearly struggling and trembling at times trying to voice words to the pilgrims gathered below. Nothing came out but groans in his mouth. The great communicator from that window there you see on television now was essentially silent in what could have been his final public appearance after 26 years of serving as leader of the Roman Catholic Church here from Vatican City.
He was coroneted October 22, 1978. For 26 long years, he has been the definitive leader of this church for 1 billion Catholics worldwide. We are all waiting now to see if that journey has come to an end. When the statement comes, we'll have it for you here in Rome, back to Soledad now in New York.
O'BRIEN: Robert Monynihan is the editor-in-chief of "Inside the Vatican." He's in Washington, D.C. this morning. Nice to see you again, Robert. Thank you for talking with us. As you know, we are waiting for this word from the Vatican, the latest statement on the pope's condition. But before then, though, the Vatican has been very dire about the pope's health. And the expectation is that the pope faces certain death and very, very soon. How would it be that we are notified when the pope does, indeed, die?
ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Well, I would think the Vatican would make a statement and say the pope has passed away. But I received an e-mail recently and someone said you're being much too negative. He's still praying. This person is praying the pope will recover. And I do think millions of people are praying for his recovery, for a miracle. But what we've been reporting is what the Vatican itself has been saying. We've had a cardinal say the pope is now nearing his maker. He's now in his final journey. So they have been quite clear that they sense that he's got a fever and a degeneration of his system that they can't see any possibility, humanly speaking, of recovery. And that's why people have been congregating in the square and that's why we are covering this minute by minute.
O'BRIEN: The Vatican, also, we should point out, has never been, for my sense, particularly forthcoming about information. I mean they wouldn't go out on a limb and say that the pope is severely unwell unless it were that and much more. My understanding is that they, in fact, understate things to a tremendous degree. Is that right?
MOYNIHAN: Yes. Sotto voce, the voice that's an undertone, is classic way of speaking in the Vatican, never cry out, never exaggerate, and, if -- always err on the side of silence. You can't make a mistake if you're silent and so, the Vatican often will not make a comment, will not respond to an allegation, just wait for it to pass by n. In this case, with the pope's health, we've had almost two -- we've had two months now of pope in decline very publicly, going to the hospital, suffering, recovering, going a second time to the hospital, trying to do something during Easter, falling again now into a third very, very difficult health situation. I think a lot of elderly people around the world must feel that they, too, are confronting the things this pope is confronting and he, in a sense, is an example for them. He's being very serene. He's praying and if there can be a miracle, we will all be astonished. But the way that the Vatican is presenting it is that we are now watching the final hours of the pope's life.
O'BRIEN: The Catholic Church, obviously, steeped in ritual and tradition. What does happen when a pope dies?
MOYNIHAN: Well, in a sense, the church has a figure in its leader who is more than an ordinary man in this regard. He takes a new name when he becomes pope. Pope John Paul II was Karol Wojtyla but he's dying as John Paul II. There's another man that the church will choose who will also take a new name and will become the pope and this means that, in a sense, they are Peter. They are successors of Peter. They take on an additional identity to their -- of course, their personal characters are very important, but they take on an additional identity. They carry on, as it were. And they will wait nine days, then they will have the funeral of the pope who passes away. They will have another nine days as they prepare for a conclave, cumme clave, a cumme clavus, the locking in to the Sistine Chapel. The conclave will gather and for probably four or five days have votes and then they will elect, we expect, a successor to this pope. That should, therefore, take about 25 days. O'BRIEN: One hundred and seventeen cardinals, in fact, will be picking the next pope. Historically speaking, has there been a time when all the cardinals couldn't come to a relatively fast agreement on who should be the next pope?
MOYNIHAN: Yes, absolutely. There have been conclaves that lasted for weeks, for months and some, a couple, for years. And of course, we're talking about a church with a 2,000-year history. So deep in the Middle Ages, there were times when there was tremendous disagreements. Those times -- the conclave really only goes back 1,000 years. Prior to that, it was the election of the bishop of Rome. It's important to remember the pope is simply the bishop of Rome. The bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter because Peter came from Palestine to Rome and died in Rome. And the successor of Peter, the bishop of the Catholic or Christian community of Rome and that successor is the pope by that fact. So, for a thousand years, they elected the bishop of Rome and he was the pope. Then, they started to have cardinals from other cities, about a thousand years ago. Now, we have cardinals from all over the world who elect the bishop of Rome who will be the pope. In the early years, there were only 12 or 18 or 20 cardinals. Then there was a limit of 70. Now, there's a limit of 120.
O'BRIEN: A question for you. And I just want to remind folks that we're still waiting word from the Vatican on the pope's health but could that happen today where you have years go by while the cardinals are trying to figure out who they're going to pick as pope, and what happens to all the work of the Vatican while they're waiting for the cardinals to do their job?
MOYNIHAN: OK, there are two questions. Could it happen? Hypothetically, it could happen. There are even some people who say the church is divided between progressives and traditionalists and if they can't get into a disagreement, it could almost fracture, that some cardinals will say we simply refuse to accept the man who is as progressive or as conservative as you others are thinking of electing. One person in Rome said to me, "Things happen inside a conclave that would curl your hair." I said, "Well, that won't be a problem for me." But there are fights that can occur because there are people that seriously and deeply believe the church should go in this direction or in that direction, that it should modernize or that it should be more traditional, that it should return to the old Latin mass of many centuries passed or become even less liturgical and more modern. There are people that are extremely -- they want to change the role of priests. They want to allow priests to marry. These are tremendous questions and the cardinals will not be settling any of the questions in a conclave but they'll choose a man who will set the direction more in this direction or more in that and they could disagree.
O'BRIEN: Robert Moynihan, the editor-in-chief of "Inside The Vatican." Maybe they meant straighten your hair, Robert. Thanks for talking with us. We'll check in with you later.
Let's get a look at the headlines now. Tony Harris is at the CNN Center in Atlanta with the latest look for us. Hey, Tony, good morning again.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Soledad. Good morning, everyone.
Now in the news, an Australian navy helicopter has crashed in Indonesia killing nine of the 11 people on board. The chopper was working earthquake relief when it went down off the Indonesia island of Nias. Five days after the devastating quake, the death toll is expected to rise as searchers reach isolated part of the island cut off by landslides.
In Minnesota, a new development in last month's school shooting, police say the FBI has seized about 30 computers from Red Lake High School. They're looking for any evidence that may link other students to the shooting rampage. Ten people died in all, including the teenage gunmen.
About 450 volunteers have gathered along the Arizona-Mexico border. They're kicking off a month-long effort to patrol the board for illegal immigrants. Many of the volunteers in the so-called Minute Man Project are armed. Critics fear the effort could spark vigilante violence.
Heavy rain has inundated lower Alabama and the Florida panhandle. Streets quickly turned into lakes and several residents had to be rescued. Alabama's governor has declared a state of emergency in two counties and will make an aerial tour later today.
Those are the headlines. Now back to Bill in Rome.
HEMMER: All right, Tony, thank you.
To our viewers, if you're just joining us, we should get a statement at any minute now from the Vatican updating us on the latest condition of Pope John Paul II.
One other note here from Rome, a few hours ago, Italian radio came out and cancelled all sporting events throughout the entire country for this weekend. That includes Italian soccer, canceled. We all know how the pope loved sports, loved hiking in the southern mountains of Poland. He had so much energy and vitality and charisma, such a strong man especially reflecting on the videotape of his early days of pontiff here in Vatican City.
Let's get a break here. Back to Rome in a moment here. We're waiting on the statement for the latest right after this.
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O'BRIEN: ... impact on the Muslim community and yet, this was a pope who unlike others before him really went out of his way to make connections with people of other religions. IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF, FARAH MOSQUE: Indeed, Pope John Paul II was a, in my opinion, the 21st century pope. He really created a completely new legacy. He was a pope of the world. He -- and let me say, certainly, that all Muslims pray for his passage from this life, this, what we call a -- what (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Muslims call the cage of trials and difficulty, was a comfort of an eternal life in the company of God and the creator.
But John Paul -- but John -- Pope John Paul II really was concerned. And he furthered the call of Mr. Itati (ph) for dialogue between not the Catholic Church and Christians in general but also to all faith traditions. In his best-selling book, "Crossing The Threshold of Hope," he spoke very positively about Muslims, about the love of God, about their diligence in pray. And it's hard enough to be impressed by the vision of Muslims following on their knees in worship and immersing themselves in the worship of God.
O'BRIEN: How significant was it then, when he became the first pope to set foot inside a mosque? What did that mean to Muslims around the world?
RAUF: Very positive, very positive. And when the church -- the church is of God and the pope, himself, is regarded as not only the head of the -- of religious faith tradition but also a very important world leader. His -- during his leadership, the Catholic Church actually put a very important rule and issues of great importance to Muslims worldwide and that is the elimination of authoritative regimes. Pope Paul played a very active role in transforming the governance of the Philippines and Poland from an authoritative regime to a Democratic regime. In fact, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), was just quoted in today's paper as saying that 30 percent of Polish freedom was due to solidarity and the Polish people. And 70 percent was the result of world leaders of which 50 percent he attributes to Pope John and the other 20 percent to Gorbechev and Reagan and the rest of the world leaders. So it goes to show how the position and the office of the papacy is and bringing about change.
And Pope John actually was very deeply concerned. He prayed for Bosnia, for the Muslims in Bosnia.
O'BRIEN: He was very -- he very much made the world's business his own business. And others have said that about him, that he didn't...
RAUF: Indeed.
O'BRIEN: ... and he was very specific. I mean he made it very clear when he would criticize a regime who he was talking about. What about his role in trying to bring peace to the Middle East?
RAUF: That was a very -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is one of the most retractable problems in the world, Soledad, and it is certainly an absolutely necessary one for us to resolve. Many of us have mentioned that if this one problem lies at the core of the polarization in the Muslim world in the west and noticing a line item, no one problem will go further to bringing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) between not only the western Muslim world but even the Christian and Jewish world and the Muslim world as the resolution of this problem. And Pope -- Pope John really played a very important role in urging the parties to resolve this particular crisis.
O'BRIEN: Can the next person who is picked to be pope fill the shoes? I mean, he was a remarkable human sort of any way you slice it. Can another person do that, do all these things, be a statesman represent the world and not just the Catholic Church?
RAUF: I'm convinced that it will happen. The -- we have to remember that there is a difference between the man and the office and there's an important part that the man brings to the office. But one can compare, for example, George Bush to any other president. But the presidency, the office of the presidency of the United States, itself, has enormous power and prestige and has a great convening power in terms of global geo politics. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the office of the papacy is a very, very powerful office and whoever holds that office can deploy that power towards bringing positive change. And the big issues of the day today, certainly, in the Muslim world are the transformation, desired of many of the people for peace, for freedom, for social justice, for moral welfare. These are all the issues which Pope John spoke in the book and in his message and there's no doubt in my mind that whoever the successor will be, will have to continue on this legacy because this is the requirement of the times. What is the role...
O'BRIEN: The job description...
RAUF: Right.
O'BRIEN: ...has sort of changed, hasn't it?
RAUF: What is the role of religion today in a Democratic society and a western society, and a global society? And the biblical notion of a city on the hill is precisely what this pope tried to do and any pope will have to do, which is a job of all religious faith leaders.
O'BRIEN: Imam Feisal, nice to see you. Thanks for talking with us this morning.
RAUF: Thank you so much, Soledad, for having me.
O'BRIEN: It's my pleasure.
RAUF: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Well, the Vatican says that the pope is slipping in and out of consciousness. We're going to turn to Dr. Sanjay Gupta to explain exactly what is happening when our extended addition -- or special edition of AMERICAN MORNING returns. Stay with us.
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O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody as we continue to bring you a special edition of AMERICAN MORNING, coming to you on a Saturday morning. WE are reporting to you live from both New York and Rome this morning which is where we find Bill Hemmer. We are waiting word, as we mentioned, on this update, Bill, of the pope's health, and it is unclear the reason for the delay. We've been talking about it being imminent quite a while now. And in fact, we are unclear why they have not released the latest update on the pope's health. So obviously we're going to continue to follow that and bring that to everybody live as soon as we get details on the update, on the pope's condition this morning.
It's been quite heart breaking and quite impressive, I have to say, to see the pictures of the pilgrims and the tourists who have gathered near where you are, Bill. The tens of thousands now from when we started talking this morning, it seemed like very few were there in the square. It's quite a remarkable site. It reminds me a lot of when I covered the pope in his travels in Cuba and you saw a very similar scene. People who came out in droves, in absolute droves, to see the holy sea and hear the words that he had to say and to see the support for him, as he is clearly in his waiting hours, is quite touching, I think.
HEMMER: You know, Soledad, when he traveled, when he would get half a million people, 500,000 people that was considered an ordinary crowd. He was in Toronto just about three years back and there were enormous crowds that came out to see him. And I remember back the trip that he took in Denver, Colorado, the number of young men and women in America, the small children who would come out, the young teenagers would come out to see him as well.
I think that's an one thing that strikes me the most after being here and listen, we've been here maybe eight hours a the this point, fresh off the plane from New York City. The thing that strikes me is that the crowds just continued to grow by the hour. Now, you would expect that for a story like this, for a man who's had this amount of impact on so many people around the world but what I think is exceptional at this point, Soledad, is that the pilgrims have not even begun their trip here just yet because we have not gotten official word and any indication that the pope has passed. When that word is handed down, if Pope John Paul II does not pull out of this current condition, there is going to be an absolute flood of people here into Rome and in the Vatican City. And the crowds we're seeing behind me here will pale in comparison. The people, my understanding, after talking with a number of them and talking with our folks here in Rome, the people you see here today are Italians, they're tourists who had already planned a trip here to Rome, Italy, and there are also a number of people who came here for the Easter week just about a week ago once the pope took a turn for the worst. They decided to extend their trip. That's by and large the people who have gathered already here in Vatican City. So when the time comes for Pope John Paul II to end his earthen journey here, it's going to be an absolute avalanche of people coming in to Vatican City. It will certainly be a sight to behold, a sight that this city has not seen going back 26 years to late 1978 when this pope was coroneted.
O'BRIEN: It's no real surprise, though, in some ways. You know Bill we've been talking all morning with people who are not affiliated at all with the Catholic Church and talking to how much Pope John Paul II reached out and touched them, but -- which I had found really remarkable. Just a moment ago, of course, we were talking to Imam Feisal, who was talking about how the pope who was the first to visit a mosque and what kind of impression and what kind of importance that had. And he is not the first to say that this was a pope of the world, that he really represented far more than the Catholic Church, of course, which is the role of the pope officially, that Pope John Paul II somehow managed to transcend his actual job title by being a living, breathing, world traveling, eight-language speaking person who reflected the morals and the values of the Catholic Church and humanity, and was able to reach out to so many more people than just in the boundaries of the Catholic Church. Quite remarkable, I think it is to see.
HEMMER: Yes, first in a synagogue, first in a mosque, first in the White House. I mean here we are in 2005 and just to say something like this, for such a leader, is quite stunning to me. But if you look back over 26 years, this world has changed an awful lot during his time and he's largely responsible for that. And I think as we go through the story, we should never lose sight of that fact.
And I think the other thing, you talk about transcending lines of faith and lines of religion, here is a guy who reached out to the eastern orthodox sect and wanting to build the wall again -- or actually take that wall down and build a better bridge to that -- those people of faith. I think the other thing that you point out about different people, not just Catholics who are taking to this story, I spoke with a couple here from Germany, East Germany. And I'll you why that's significant in a moment here. They are Protestant. They were insistent on telling me, "We're not Catholic but this is our story." In 1986, we defected from Communist East Germany to West Germany, but he was our leader the entire time. There was a man from Poland. He supported like (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the solidarity movement in Poland that gave rise in the early 1980s. And this is what they said, "It's very emotional for us. We follow him in the East Bloc. People who like freedom like him and we thank him for our freedom." Stunning to hear the words today here in Rome.
O'BRIEN: More stunning than to them. They're not the only ones saying that. All right, Bill, we're going to take a short break. And we want to remind everybody that we are still awaiting word from the Vatican, updating the pope's condition. There is no word given to us right now why the reason for the delay but that announcement on the pope's health has been delayed. We were expecting it more than an hour ago. We've been announcing that that announcement was coming imminently. It has not come. We're going to bring it to you, of course, as soon as we get word from the Vatican on the pope's health. A short break, AMERICAN MORNING is back right after this.
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HEMMER: Welcome back. It is 6:35 in the evening here. The day is growing long at Vatican City. I'm Bill Hemmer live in Rome, Italy, just about 500 yards outside the official boundary of Vatican City. It's down the road behind me about 500 yards. And throughout the entire day, that road has looked like a street fair with thousands of people coming and going on their way into St. Peter's Square. We are now getting word from the Vatican that the statement may not be imminent after all. Now, we want to let you know what we're watching for and waiting for. We were told about seven hours ago from the Vatican spokesperson that some sort of statement would come out around the 5:00 in the evening hour. Well, right now, it's a bit past 6:30 as I just mentioned. We're an hour and 35 minutes past that. And then there was an update that said it would come at 5:30 local time, which would have been about 60 minutes ago. Why the delay? We cannot say. And for us to speculate in any way would be taking us into an area where we just do not have answers at this time.
Having said that, though, I want to bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta right now. And Sanjay, we have talked earlier about the possible medical condition that the pope may be experiencing. Based on the statement from earlier today, when they talked about the following things, Sanjay: his eyes are open, he looks to be resting, no talk of a coma. But then they mentioned at 7:30 a.m. Rome time today a compromising moment. We can read a whole lot into what, Sanjay, but from the medical standpoint, what does this indicate to you if a similar situation were happening with one of your patients?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The biggest concern is did he have some sort of event with his heart or some of event with his breathing? Was there a period where it looked like his heart might completely fail or where he might stop breathing? That's probably what a compromising moment means especially in the face of everything that we've seen so far.
Bill, doesn't surprise me that much that we're getting different times in terms of when this conference -- this statement will actually be released because it is a dynamic situation. I think that's clear now. They said the pope's blood pressure was unstable. That means up and down. Eyes closed, eyes open, lapsing in and out of consciousness, clearly, it's hard to -- from one moment to the next, his status might be changing. Hard to read into it, Bill, as you said, hard to speculate, for sure but I can tell you this, patient who are in this situation, near the end of their life, which even the Vatican has said now, is probably the case is -- are constantly changing in terms of what they can report conclusively on his condition, Bill.
HEMMER: All right. Sanjay, thanks for that. Sanjay Gupta back at the CNN Center.
Delia Gallagher, a Vatican analyst, back with me here now live in Rome.
Good evening to you. If you have been on phone, if you've talked to anyone, is there an explanation for the delay?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, no. And I wouldn't read too much into the delay. You know, this is something which was planned earlier this morning but it's not as if there is a schedule for it. I mean the pope's spokesman has to go up and see the pope. The statement has to be devised and written and so on. In fact, by Vatican standards, we're getting quite a lot, even having two updates a day. So whether it's a half hour later or a half hour earlier really doesn't say very much to me.
HEMMER: You have covered the Vatican almost five years. Is that right...
GALLAGHER: Yes.
HEMMER: ...from here in Rome? On the outside, it seems to be such an impenetratable body but yet we talk about the transparency that's been adapted thanks to Pope John Paul II and his 26 years leading the Catholic Church. As a reporter, who do you call to get information?
GALLAGHER: Well, you know...
HEMMER: I'm not looking for a name here.
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HEMMER: I just want to understand how -- how does the protocol work? Is there an office? Is there an individual? Is there a source? Or does everybody keep their mouth closed?
GALLAGHER: Well, no, certainly people talk but the point is like in most places of work, you've got to establish that trust and that takes sometimes many years at the Vatican. You know anything that in one place might take one year, the Vatican probably takes five. It is an old -- you've got to understand the Catholic culture, the old Italian culture, which is not a culture of transparency. It's not a culture of direct answers. So you've got to be very familiar with both Catholicism, the priestly culture, how to be very formal with these people but at the same time establish a trust so that they are willing to open up to you. It takes a long time.
HEMMER: So beginning from the first day when you started covering the Vatican until now, have you noticed a transparency? Do people open up more with reporters like yourself?
GALLAGHER: No. I think that it still works on a sort of an indirect conversational basis, talking to somebody. You can call up a cardinal and ask for an interview, of course. And that's really the way that we work, you know. We talk to the people that work in the Vatican offices. Some of the people in secondary offices, for example, and then you call up and do regular interviews with cardinals. Some cardinals are more disposed than others the talk to you, of course.
HEMMER: This press office that you have a lot of contact with, how big is it?
GALLAGHER: You know it's very interesting because it's actually quite small in terms of the number of people who are there every day following only the Vatican. And there are a lot of foreign journalists in Rome but they follow Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean. But the people that follow the Vatican, Americans every day, for example, I could count -- I would say seven or maybe 10 maximum from the wire services, television and newspapers. So really it's a very small group of people but a very expertise group of people, people that have been here almost the whole time too. So they really know what they're talking about and that's why they're able to get this information out.
HEMMER: We're getting word now and I'm just hearing this that the Vatican now that apparently there will be a single statement given in about 30 minutes. There will not be an on-camera presentation but there will be a written statement. So as we await that, I just have one more curious question for you, for how you do your job here with the Vatican. The officials who engage with, do they like reporters? Do they like the media following their every move or at least trying to?
GALLAGHER: There's an easy answer to that question. It is no. The Vatican doesn't yet -- this is my criticism of the Vatican -- they don't yet use the media in the way that the pope actually shows them how to do, you know. And part of that I think is a sense of they're not prepared to deal with the media. They don't understand it. They are almost afraid of dealing with it. They don't like the fact when they talk sometimes the messages get skewered. And so, I do think that on the whole, and there are some notable exceptions of some cardinals, for example, who are very good of talking to the media, but on the whole, Vatican officials are very, very weary of the media.
HEMMER: I don't mean to turn this into "RELIABLE SOURCES" here. I find it fascinating.
GALLAGHER: It is. It's a fascinating place to work but it just takes a long time. And you cannot approach it from an American corporate culture idea.
HEMMER: Is that so?
GALLAGHER: It's a totally different place. I mean I always say you have to know how to speak English, Italian and Vaticanese. There's a whole other language there. And it takes a long time to...
HEMMER: Where does Latin fall into that?
GALLAGHER: Well, you need that as a base for all three.
HEMMER: Thanks, Delia. We'll talk again.
Again, the statement, the latest word we're getting here, perhaps 30 minutes away. But again, we've been waiting several hours and it's difficult to read much into this. We will all stand by here in Rome and wait for when the word comes out.
Soledad, back to you now in New York.
O'BRIEN: Thanks Bill. And when the word does out, what happens next? One hundred seventeen cardinals will convene in Rome to pick the next pope by secret ballot. My next guest has written very extensively about the process. Father Thomas Reese is the author of "Inside The Vatican." He's also editor of "American Magazine."
Nice to see you again. Thanks for being with us.
FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA" MAGAZINE: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: I want to talk a little bit about this delay. We've been announcing this sort of momentarily, we're expecting word from the Vatican and that has not come. Anything to read into that or no?
REESE: I don't think so except that obviously the pope is not dead yet because if he was dead, Cardinal Arranini (ph), who's the vicar of Rome, would come forward and would speak before camera to announce this to the world.
O'BRIEN: So the fact that it's a statement that's being read, a paper statement that's going to be released, means that the pope is still alive?
REESE: Is still alive, absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about the extraordinary moment, as you like to call it that is unfolding. What do you mean by that?
REESE: Well, obviously, you know the pope is now approaching death. And, I think he is approaching it like every Christian, with the recognition that he's going home. He's going home to the Father. He is -- we as Christians don't look as death as an end but as the opening of a door to a new life. You know, we don't just hold on to life to the very last moment. It's interesting. He didn't want to go back to the hospital. You know, that was a choice he made.
O'BRIEN: And it seems that he also has declined pain medicine so that he can sort of feel the final moment coming. But it's funny; you say that, you know, the Christians sort of go willingly and calmly. And I think that maybe most people who are not quite resigned to their fate don't go willingly and calmly and fight it every step of the way. He's sort of been a role model in how to face your final moment, hasn't he?
REESE: Yes, I think so. I mean he's, you know, struggled to continue to do the mission that God gave him. And yet, at the same time, when, you know, he recognizes the inevitable, that God is calling him home, he welcomes that.
O'BRIEN: In so many ways, he's larger than life. I mean, every single person you ask what's his legacy; you will get a different answer. His legacy, some people will say is that he was the pope to the world. His legacy knows that he really brought the idea of faith home to people who sort of maybe have lost track of that. What do you think the pope's legacy is?
REESE: It's such a huge legacy. I mean clearly, this is the pope who helped to bring about the end of the Cold War and who grew up during the '50s, you know, in schools where we practiced for bombing, you know, getting under our chair and the fear of the mushroom-shaped cloud. This is the man who brought to an end to that. Secondly, I think the way he reached out to the Jewish community. I mean, you know, for two millennium, you know, Christians has persecuted Jews. You know, and this is the man who said, "An end to that."
O'BRIEN: And took responsibility for the past.
REESE: And took -- and apologized during the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) celebration. You know who -- this is a man who...
(AUDIO GAP)
REESE: ... in terms of the...
(AUDIO GAP)
HARRIS: ... remains in Pennsylvania but her parents want her buried in Florida.
FBI agents have found bomb-making equipment at the home of Terry Nichols. Officials say the equipment buried in the yard include blasting caps. Nichols was convicted of conspiracy in the Oklahoma City bombing. Agents say the find does tie up loose ends in the case.
President Bush names members of a commission that will determine military base closings. He made the appointments without waiting for Senate confirmation. The White House says the president was able to do that by announcing the appointments while the Senate is in recess.
And it is time to spring forward to Daylight Saving Time. It begins at 2:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. That's when most of us will jump from 2:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m. in a split second, best to set your watches and clocks before hitting the sack tonight.
Those are the headlines. Now let's go back to Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Let's take a look at what's happening in Vatican City. As you can see tens of thousands of tourists and pilgrims have gathered in St. Peter's Square. We are watching as well, developments in Vatican City. We're expecting an update on the pope's condition. That update has been delayed. No word why as of yet. We're going to continue, obviously, to monitor this story and bring that update to you as soon as it happens. You're watching an extended version of AMERICAN MORNING on the weekend. We're back in a moment, stay with us.
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HEMMER: Just about 7:00 in the evening here in Rome, Italy. If you are just joining us, we anticipate some statement to be given out by Vatican officials at any time. We have been waiting on this word for about two and a half hours now. It keeps on being pushed back and delayed. Why? We cannot say. But as soon as it comes out, certainly, we will pass it along to you. We're all waiting for that now here in Rome, Italy.
If this is the end for Pope John Paul II, there are terms throughout this story that many of the viewers are starting to become very familiar with. One is called a conclave. This is essentially the gathering of cardinals who get together and vote and determine through a form of Democratic system who will lead the Roman Catholic Church next. And they meet in one of the most fascinating and exhilarating buildings in all the world. Here's Jonathan Mann on that.
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JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The gathering is called a conclave because the cardinals are considered locked in together cumme clave, with a key, unable to communicate with the outside world in any way, emerging only when they elect a new pope. Most people who visit the Vatican would hardly consider that punishment but the clerics for gather for a papal conclave have sometimes found it exhausting. The voting is slow and repetitive, the living arrangements often improvised and uncomfortable. Conditions will be a bit better this time. Under Pope John Paul II, the Vatican built Saint Martha House, the Domus Santa Marta, a hotel for visiting nuns and clergy that will be emptied of its guests and restricted to the cardinals and officials attending the conclave. Like the other places where the cardinals gather, it will be swept for microphones and listening devices. Its phone lines will be cut for the duration.
From Santa Marta, the cardinals will make their way each day to the Sistine Chapel where they meet to vote and probably vote again and again. In their first votes, perhaps as many as four of them a day, the cardinals will need to assemble a two-thirds majority in order to elect a pope. But depending on the pace of their balloting and other factors, the cardinals can decide after about 30 votes to elect a pope by a lesser mar gin, a simple majority. This was one John Paul II's reforms and it means that if a determined group of cardinals can stay loyal to a single candidate long enough, they stand a better chance of getting him elected. That new rule may be a key reason for a lengthy conclave.
All through the conclave, each time the votes are cast and counted, the ballots are burned. The crowds who gather in the Vatican's (UNINTELLIGIBLE), will know that additives in the smoke rising from Sistine Chapel will make it burn black for an inconclusive vote, white for a successful one. And shortly after see white smoke, they will hear the first news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abamus papum (ph).
MANN: Abamus papum (ph), we have a pope. A man will walk out as his predecessors have to present himself, who will be et orbi (ph), to the city, and the world.
Jonathan Mann, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: And this time around, the Sistine Chapel will have an entirely new look to it. A decade-long restoration project was completed right around 1994, about 11 years ago, and today it looks like it looked back in the early 1600s when Michaelangelo did such marvelous work on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. We're awating word from the Vatican; it could come at any moment, now, and because of that, our special edition of CNN's AMERICAN MORNING will continue into the next hour. I'll stay here live in Rome, Italy; Soledad O'Brien is back in New York City. Our special coverage continues here; 7:00 in the evening, in Vatican City.
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Aired April 2, 2005 - 11:00 ET
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BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Bill Hemmer live in Rome, Italy. At any moment now, we should get an update on the condition of Pope John Paul II as this special edition of CNN'S AMERICAN MORNING continues at this hour.
ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and the CNN broadcast center in New York and Bill Hemmer in Rome.
HEMMER: It is 6:00 in the evening here in Rome. Thanks for being along with us today on this special edition of CNN's AMERICAN MORNING.
We mentioned many times in the past hour that we will get this statement and we do believe that will be the case. We're watching Vatican Television because at one point we thought it would be would a simple paper statement and now we're under the impression that it will be on camera statement possibly followed by reporter questions. But again, we're waiting to find out if indeed that will be the case. It should happen at any time.
In the meantime though, they are coming by the thousands here in Vatican City. Throughout St. Peter's Square, well over 30,000 now gathered on this Saturday evening. They wait as we wait for the latest word on the condition on Pope John Paul II.
I'm here in Rome. Soledad is back in New York. And Soledad, good morning again to you.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning to you, Bill. And in fact, as we wait for the latest on the pope's health, here's what's happening. The most recent bulletin was more than six hours ago when the Vatican said that the pope's heart and breathing were unchanged since Friday. For a second day, the Vatican announced a series of papal appointments, including a Spanish bishop, two ambassadors as well. And in his weekly radio address, President Bush calls the pope a champion of human dignity and freedom. Much more from New York as we go along this morning. Carol Costello with me, as well, but let's go back to Bill Hemmer in Rome -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad, thank you. Back to Jim Bittermann as well who's been watching and waiting along with me.
Jim, I don't know if you have heard better clarification or not but when this statement comes, do we have any firm indication as to how it will be received? JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, we don't, and judging from past performance, just about anything could happen. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the papal spokesman, is very well-known for coming out saying he's going to just deliver a statement and then asking and -- or taking questions, as he did, in fact, this morning because he really didn't say he was going to take questions this morning, but then he did. Also, the Vatican has this way of saying that they're going to issue a medical bulletin. Well, in Italian, a bulletin can be just a piece of paper. So in fact, that's the way it could come out, as well. So we're not real clear on how this is going to work.
I'd like to go back to -- just to something that you and Soledad were talking about in the last hour, and that is this interview with Edmund Szoka, who is from Grand Rapids, Michigan, the governor general of the Vatican, and a long time collaborator of the pope and someone who speaks Polish, it should be said. It's interesting what happened with Szoka this morning. He was called by Archbishop Dziwisz, who is the pope's personal secretary, and told to come over to the Vatican. And it seemed almost as if Dziwisz has been going through a list of cardinals and asking them to come see the pope. One of the cardinals came out. And Szoka came out saying he thought the pope was conscious and seemed lucid and seemed responsive to his visit. One of the other cardinals who was over there this morning said that, in fact, he thought it was an opportunity or it seemed like a situation where he was bidding his last farewell to the pope. So that would give us a kind of an idea of what's been going on. A number of people come in to visit the pope, and as Cardinal Szoka did, to briefly meet with him, say a prayer, to give a blessing and that sort of thing -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Bittermann, thanks for that. Jim Bitterman with me here in Rome as well, and talking with so many people who have gathered here throughout the day. One 27-year-old Italian student said, "This is a person I hope who's going to a better place and a better life." We know the suffering this man has endured, very publicly, too. If we go back to four days ago and Wednesday, when he came to the open window high above Vatican -- the Vatican -- St. Peter's Square here in Vatican City and clearly struggling and trembling at times trying to voice words to the pilgrims gathered below. Nothing came out but groans in his mouth. The great communicator from that window there you see on television now was essentially silent in what could have been his final public appearance after 26 years of serving as leader of the Roman Catholic Church here from Vatican City.
He was coroneted October 22, 1978. For 26 long years, he has been the definitive leader of this church for 1 billion Catholics worldwide. We are all waiting now to see if that journey has come to an end. When the statement comes, we'll have it for you here in Rome, back to Soledad now in New York.
O'BRIEN: Robert Monynihan is the editor-in-chief of "Inside the Vatican." He's in Washington, D.C. this morning. Nice to see you again, Robert. Thank you for talking with us. As you know, we are waiting for this word from the Vatican, the latest statement on the pope's condition. But before then, though, the Vatican has been very dire about the pope's health. And the expectation is that the pope faces certain death and very, very soon. How would it be that we are notified when the pope does, indeed, die?
ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Well, I would think the Vatican would make a statement and say the pope has passed away. But I received an e-mail recently and someone said you're being much too negative. He's still praying. This person is praying the pope will recover. And I do think millions of people are praying for his recovery, for a miracle. But what we've been reporting is what the Vatican itself has been saying. We've had a cardinal say the pope is now nearing his maker. He's now in his final journey. So they have been quite clear that they sense that he's got a fever and a degeneration of his system that they can't see any possibility, humanly speaking, of recovery. And that's why people have been congregating in the square and that's why we are covering this minute by minute.
O'BRIEN: The Vatican, also, we should point out, has never been, for my sense, particularly forthcoming about information. I mean they wouldn't go out on a limb and say that the pope is severely unwell unless it were that and much more. My understanding is that they, in fact, understate things to a tremendous degree. Is that right?
MOYNIHAN: Yes. Sotto voce, the voice that's an undertone, is classic way of speaking in the Vatican, never cry out, never exaggerate, and, if -- always err on the side of silence. You can't make a mistake if you're silent and so, the Vatican often will not make a comment, will not respond to an allegation, just wait for it to pass by n. In this case, with the pope's health, we've had almost two -- we've had two months now of pope in decline very publicly, going to the hospital, suffering, recovering, going a second time to the hospital, trying to do something during Easter, falling again now into a third very, very difficult health situation. I think a lot of elderly people around the world must feel that they, too, are confronting the things this pope is confronting and he, in a sense, is an example for them. He's being very serene. He's praying and if there can be a miracle, we will all be astonished. But the way that the Vatican is presenting it is that we are now watching the final hours of the pope's life.
O'BRIEN: The Catholic Church, obviously, steeped in ritual and tradition. What does happen when a pope dies?
MOYNIHAN: Well, in a sense, the church has a figure in its leader who is more than an ordinary man in this regard. He takes a new name when he becomes pope. Pope John Paul II was Karol Wojtyla but he's dying as John Paul II. There's another man that the church will choose who will also take a new name and will become the pope and this means that, in a sense, they are Peter. They are successors of Peter. They take on an additional identity to their -- of course, their personal characters are very important, but they take on an additional identity. They carry on, as it were. And they will wait nine days, then they will have the funeral of the pope who passes away. They will have another nine days as they prepare for a conclave, cumme clave, a cumme clavus, the locking in to the Sistine Chapel. The conclave will gather and for probably four or five days have votes and then they will elect, we expect, a successor to this pope. That should, therefore, take about 25 days. O'BRIEN: One hundred and seventeen cardinals, in fact, will be picking the next pope. Historically speaking, has there been a time when all the cardinals couldn't come to a relatively fast agreement on who should be the next pope?
MOYNIHAN: Yes, absolutely. There have been conclaves that lasted for weeks, for months and some, a couple, for years. And of course, we're talking about a church with a 2,000-year history. So deep in the Middle Ages, there were times when there was tremendous disagreements. Those times -- the conclave really only goes back 1,000 years. Prior to that, it was the election of the bishop of Rome. It's important to remember the pope is simply the bishop of Rome. The bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter because Peter came from Palestine to Rome and died in Rome. And the successor of Peter, the bishop of the Catholic or Christian community of Rome and that successor is the pope by that fact. So, for a thousand years, they elected the bishop of Rome and he was the pope. Then, they started to have cardinals from other cities, about a thousand years ago. Now, we have cardinals from all over the world who elect the bishop of Rome who will be the pope. In the early years, there were only 12 or 18 or 20 cardinals. Then there was a limit of 70. Now, there's a limit of 120.
O'BRIEN: A question for you. And I just want to remind folks that we're still waiting word from the Vatican on the pope's health but could that happen today where you have years go by while the cardinals are trying to figure out who they're going to pick as pope, and what happens to all the work of the Vatican while they're waiting for the cardinals to do their job?
MOYNIHAN: OK, there are two questions. Could it happen? Hypothetically, it could happen. There are even some people who say the church is divided between progressives and traditionalists and if they can't get into a disagreement, it could almost fracture, that some cardinals will say we simply refuse to accept the man who is as progressive or as conservative as you others are thinking of electing. One person in Rome said to me, "Things happen inside a conclave that would curl your hair." I said, "Well, that won't be a problem for me." But there are fights that can occur because there are people that seriously and deeply believe the church should go in this direction or in that direction, that it should modernize or that it should be more traditional, that it should return to the old Latin mass of many centuries passed or become even less liturgical and more modern. There are people that are extremely -- they want to change the role of priests. They want to allow priests to marry. These are tremendous questions and the cardinals will not be settling any of the questions in a conclave but they'll choose a man who will set the direction more in this direction or more in that and they could disagree.
O'BRIEN: Robert Moynihan, the editor-in-chief of "Inside The Vatican." Maybe they meant straighten your hair, Robert. Thanks for talking with us. We'll check in with you later.
Let's get a look at the headlines now. Tony Harris is at the CNN Center in Atlanta with the latest look for us. Hey, Tony, good morning again.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Soledad. Good morning, everyone.
Now in the news, an Australian navy helicopter has crashed in Indonesia killing nine of the 11 people on board. The chopper was working earthquake relief when it went down off the Indonesia island of Nias. Five days after the devastating quake, the death toll is expected to rise as searchers reach isolated part of the island cut off by landslides.
In Minnesota, a new development in last month's school shooting, police say the FBI has seized about 30 computers from Red Lake High School. They're looking for any evidence that may link other students to the shooting rampage. Ten people died in all, including the teenage gunmen.
About 450 volunteers have gathered along the Arizona-Mexico border. They're kicking off a month-long effort to patrol the board for illegal immigrants. Many of the volunteers in the so-called Minute Man Project are armed. Critics fear the effort could spark vigilante violence.
Heavy rain has inundated lower Alabama and the Florida panhandle. Streets quickly turned into lakes and several residents had to be rescued. Alabama's governor has declared a state of emergency in two counties and will make an aerial tour later today.
Those are the headlines. Now back to Bill in Rome.
HEMMER: All right, Tony, thank you.
To our viewers, if you're just joining us, we should get a statement at any minute now from the Vatican updating us on the latest condition of Pope John Paul II.
One other note here from Rome, a few hours ago, Italian radio came out and cancelled all sporting events throughout the entire country for this weekend. That includes Italian soccer, canceled. We all know how the pope loved sports, loved hiking in the southern mountains of Poland. He had so much energy and vitality and charisma, such a strong man especially reflecting on the videotape of his early days of pontiff here in Vatican City.
Let's get a break here. Back to Rome in a moment here. We're waiting on the statement for the latest right after this.
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O'BRIEN: ... impact on the Muslim community and yet, this was a pope who unlike others before him really went out of his way to make connections with people of other religions. IMAM FEISAL ABDUL RAUF, FARAH MOSQUE: Indeed, Pope John Paul II was a, in my opinion, the 21st century pope. He really created a completely new legacy. He was a pope of the world. He -- and let me say, certainly, that all Muslims pray for his passage from this life, this, what we call a -- what (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Muslims call the cage of trials and difficulty, was a comfort of an eternal life in the company of God and the creator.
But John Paul -- but John -- Pope John Paul II really was concerned. And he furthered the call of Mr. Itati (ph) for dialogue between not the Catholic Church and Christians in general but also to all faith traditions. In his best-selling book, "Crossing The Threshold of Hope," he spoke very positively about Muslims, about the love of God, about their diligence in pray. And it's hard enough to be impressed by the vision of Muslims following on their knees in worship and immersing themselves in the worship of God.
O'BRIEN: How significant was it then, when he became the first pope to set foot inside a mosque? What did that mean to Muslims around the world?
RAUF: Very positive, very positive. And when the church -- the church is of God and the pope, himself, is regarded as not only the head of the -- of religious faith tradition but also a very important world leader. His -- during his leadership, the Catholic Church actually put a very important rule and issues of great importance to Muslims worldwide and that is the elimination of authoritative regimes. Pope Paul played a very active role in transforming the governance of the Philippines and Poland from an authoritative regime to a Democratic regime. In fact, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), was just quoted in today's paper as saying that 30 percent of Polish freedom was due to solidarity and the Polish people. And 70 percent was the result of world leaders of which 50 percent he attributes to Pope John and the other 20 percent to Gorbechev and Reagan and the rest of the world leaders. So it goes to show how the position and the office of the papacy is and bringing about change.
And Pope John actually was very deeply concerned. He prayed for Bosnia, for the Muslims in Bosnia.
O'BRIEN: He was very -- he very much made the world's business his own business. And others have said that about him, that he didn't...
RAUF: Indeed.
O'BRIEN: ... and he was very specific. I mean he made it very clear when he would criticize a regime who he was talking about. What about his role in trying to bring peace to the Middle East?
RAUF: That was a very -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is one of the most retractable problems in the world, Soledad, and it is certainly an absolutely necessary one for us to resolve. Many of us have mentioned that if this one problem lies at the core of the polarization in the Muslim world in the west and noticing a line item, no one problem will go further to bringing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) between not only the western Muslim world but even the Christian and Jewish world and the Muslim world as the resolution of this problem. And Pope -- Pope John really played a very important role in urging the parties to resolve this particular crisis.
O'BRIEN: Can the next person who is picked to be pope fill the shoes? I mean, he was a remarkable human sort of any way you slice it. Can another person do that, do all these things, be a statesman represent the world and not just the Catholic Church?
RAUF: I'm convinced that it will happen. The -- we have to remember that there is a difference between the man and the office and there's an important part that the man brings to the office. But one can compare, for example, George Bush to any other president. But the presidency, the office of the presidency of the United States, itself, has enormous power and prestige and has a great convening power in terms of global geo politics. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the office of the papacy is a very, very powerful office and whoever holds that office can deploy that power towards bringing positive change. And the big issues of the day today, certainly, in the Muslim world are the transformation, desired of many of the people for peace, for freedom, for social justice, for moral welfare. These are all the issues which Pope John spoke in the book and in his message and there's no doubt in my mind that whoever the successor will be, will have to continue on this legacy because this is the requirement of the times. What is the role...
O'BRIEN: The job description...
RAUF: Right.
O'BRIEN: ...has sort of changed, hasn't it?
RAUF: What is the role of religion today in a Democratic society and a western society, and a global society? And the biblical notion of a city on the hill is precisely what this pope tried to do and any pope will have to do, which is a job of all religious faith leaders.
O'BRIEN: Imam Feisal, nice to see you. Thanks for talking with us this morning.
RAUF: Thank you so much, Soledad, for having me.
O'BRIEN: It's my pleasure.
RAUF: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Well, the Vatican says that the pope is slipping in and out of consciousness. We're going to turn to Dr. Sanjay Gupta to explain exactly what is happening when our extended addition -- or special edition of AMERICAN MORNING returns. Stay with us.
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O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody as we continue to bring you a special edition of AMERICAN MORNING, coming to you on a Saturday morning. WE are reporting to you live from both New York and Rome this morning which is where we find Bill Hemmer. We are waiting word, as we mentioned, on this update, Bill, of the pope's health, and it is unclear the reason for the delay. We've been talking about it being imminent quite a while now. And in fact, we are unclear why they have not released the latest update on the pope's health. So obviously we're going to continue to follow that and bring that to everybody live as soon as we get details on the update, on the pope's condition this morning.
It's been quite heart breaking and quite impressive, I have to say, to see the pictures of the pilgrims and the tourists who have gathered near where you are, Bill. The tens of thousands now from when we started talking this morning, it seemed like very few were there in the square. It's quite a remarkable site. It reminds me a lot of when I covered the pope in his travels in Cuba and you saw a very similar scene. People who came out in droves, in absolute droves, to see the holy sea and hear the words that he had to say and to see the support for him, as he is clearly in his waiting hours, is quite touching, I think.
HEMMER: You know, Soledad, when he traveled, when he would get half a million people, 500,000 people that was considered an ordinary crowd. He was in Toronto just about three years back and there were enormous crowds that came out to see him. And I remember back the trip that he took in Denver, Colorado, the number of young men and women in America, the small children who would come out, the young teenagers would come out to see him as well.
I think that's an one thing that strikes me the most after being here and listen, we've been here maybe eight hours a the this point, fresh off the plane from New York City. The thing that strikes me is that the crowds just continued to grow by the hour. Now, you would expect that for a story like this, for a man who's had this amount of impact on so many people around the world but what I think is exceptional at this point, Soledad, is that the pilgrims have not even begun their trip here just yet because we have not gotten official word and any indication that the pope has passed. When that word is handed down, if Pope John Paul II does not pull out of this current condition, there is going to be an absolute flood of people here into Rome and in the Vatican City. And the crowds we're seeing behind me here will pale in comparison. The people, my understanding, after talking with a number of them and talking with our folks here in Rome, the people you see here today are Italians, they're tourists who had already planned a trip here to Rome, Italy, and there are also a number of people who came here for the Easter week just about a week ago once the pope took a turn for the worst. They decided to extend their trip. That's by and large the people who have gathered already here in Vatican City. So when the time comes for Pope John Paul II to end his earthen journey here, it's going to be an absolute avalanche of people coming in to Vatican City. It will certainly be a sight to behold, a sight that this city has not seen going back 26 years to late 1978 when this pope was coroneted.
O'BRIEN: It's no real surprise, though, in some ways. You know Bill we've been talking all morning with people who are not affiliated at all with the Catholic Church and talking to how much Pope John Paul II reached out and touched them, but -- which I had found really remarkable. Just a moment ago, of course, we were talking to Imam Feisal, who was talking about how the pope who was the first to visit a mosque and what kind of impression and what kind of importance that had. And he is not the first to say that this was a pope of the world, that he really represented far more than the Catholic Church, of course, which is the role of the pope officially, that Pope John Paul II somehow managed to transcend his actual job title by being a living, breathing, world traveling, eight-language speaking person who reflected the morals and the values of the Catholic Church and humanity, and was able to reach out to so many more people than just in the boundaries of the Catholic Church. Quite remarkable, I think it is to see.
HEMMER: Yes, first in a synagogue, first in a mosque, first in the White House. I mean here we are in 2005 and just to say something like this, for such a leader, is quite stunning to me. But if you look back over 26 years, this world has changed an awful lot during his time and he's largely responsible for that. And I think as we go through the story, we should never lose sight of that fact.
And I think the other thing, you talk about transcending lines of faith and lines of religion, here is a guy who reached out to the eastern orthodox sect and wanting to build the wall again -- or actually take that wall down and build a better bridge to that -- those people of faith. I think the other thing that you point out about different people, not just Catholics who are taking to this story, I spoke with a couple here from Germany, East Germany. And I'll you why that's significant in a moment here. They are Protestant. They were insistent on telling me, "We're not Catholic but this is our story." In 1986, we defected from Communist East Germany to West Germany, but he was our leader the entire time. There was a man from Poland. He supported like (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the solidarity movement in Poland that gave rise in the early 1980s. And this is what they said, "It's very emotional for us. We follow him in the East Bloc. People who like freedom like him and we thank him for our freedom." Stunning to hear the words today here in Rome.
O'BRIEN: More stunning than to them. They're not the only ones saying that. All right, Bill, we're going to take a short break. And we want to remind everybody that we are still awaiting word from the Vatican, updating the pope's condition. There is no word given to us right now why the reason for the delay but that announcement on the pope's health has been delayed. We were expecting it more than an hour ago. We've been announcing that that announcement was coming imminently. It has not come. We're going to bring it to you, of course, as soon as we get word from the Vatican on the pope's health. A short break, AMERICAN MORNING is back right after this.
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HEMMER: Welcome back. It is 6:35 in the evening here. The day is growing long at Vatican City. I'm Bill Hemmer live in Rome, Italy, just about 500 yards outside the official boundary of Vatican City. It's down the road behind me about 500 yards. And throughout the entire day, that road has looked like a street fair with thousands of people coming and going on their way into St. Peter's Square. We are now getting word from the Vatican that the statement may not be imminent after all. Now, we want to let you know what we're watching for and waiting for. We were told about seven hours ago from the Vatican spokesperson that some sort of statement would come out around the 5:00 in the evening hour. Well, right now, it's a bit past 6:30 as I just mentioned. We're an hour and 35 minutes past that. And then there was an update that said it would come at 5:30 local time, which would have been about 60 minutes ago. Why the delay? We cannot say. And for us to speculate in any way would be taking us into an area where we just do not have answers at this time.
Having said that, though, I want to bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta right now. And Sanjay, we have talked earlier about the possible medical condition that the pope may be experiencing. Based on the statement from earlier today, when they talked about the following things, Sanjay: his eyes are open, he looks to be resting, no talk of a coma. But then they mentioned at 7:30 a.m. Rome time today a compromising moment. We can read a whole lot into what, Sanjay, but from the medical standpoint, what does this indicate to you if a similar situation were happening with one of your patients?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: The biggest concern is did he have some sort of event with his heart or some of event with his breathing? Was there a period where it looked like his heart might completely fail or where he might stop breathing? That's probably what a compromising moment means especially in the face of everything that we've seen so far.
Bill, doesn't surprise me that much that we're getting different times in terms of when this conference -- this statement will actually be released because it is a dynamic situation. I think that's clear now. They said the pope's blood pressure was unstable. That means up and down. Eyes closed, eyes open, lapsing in and out of consciousness, clearly, it's hard to -- from one moment to the next, his status might be changing. Hard to read into it, Bill, as you said, hard to speculate, for sure but I can tell you this, patient who are in this situation, near the end of their life, which even the Vatican has said now, is probably the case is -- are constantly changing in terms of what they can report conclusively on his condition, Bill.
HEMMER: All right. Sanjay, thanks for that. Sanjay Gupta back at the CNN Center.
Delia Gallagher, a Vatican analyst, back with me here now live in Rome.
Good evening to you. If you have been on phone, if you've talked to anyone, is there an explanation for the delay?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, no. And I wouldn't read too much into the delay. You know, this is something which was planned earlier this morning but it's not as if there is a schedule for it. I mean the pope's spokesman has to go up and see the pope. The statement has to be devised and written and so on. In fact, by Vatican standards, we're getting quite a lot, even having two updates a day. So whether it's a half hour later or a half hour earlier really doesn't say very much to me.
HEMMER: You have covered the Vatican almost five years. Is that right...
GALLAGHER: Yes.
HEMMER: ...from here in Rome? On the outside, it seems to be such an impenetratable body but yet we talk about the transparency that's been adapted thanks to Pope John Paul II and his 26 years leading the Catholic Church. As a reporter, who do you call to get information?
GALLAGHER: Well, you know...
HEMMER: I'm not looking for a name here.
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: I just want to understand how -- how does the protocol work? Is there an office? Is there an individual? Is there a source? Or does everybody keep their mouth closed?
GALLAGHER: Well, no, certainly people talk but the point is like in most places of work, you've got to establish that trust and that takes sometimes many years at the Vatican. You know anything that in one place might take one year, the Vatican probably takes five. It is an old -- you've got to understand the Catholic culture, the old Italian culture, which is not a culture of transparency. It's not a culture of direct answers. So you've got to be very familiar with both Catholicism, the priestly culture, how to be very formal with these people but at the same time establish a trust so that they are willing to open up to you. It takes a long time.
HEMMER: So beginning from the first day when you started covering the Vatican until now, have you noticed a transparency? Do people open up more with reporters like yourself?
GALLAGHER: No. I think that it still works on a sort of an indirect conversational basis, talking to somebody. You can call up a cardinal and ask for an interview, of course. And that's really the way that we work, you know. We talk to the people that work in the Vatican offices. Some of the people in secondary offices, for example, and then you call up and do regular interviews with cardinals. Some cardinals are more disposed than others the talk to you, of course.
HEMMER: This press office that you have a lot of contact with, how big is it?
GALLAGHER: You know it's very interesting because it's actually quite small in terms of the number of people who are there every day following only the Vatican. And there are a lot of foreign journalists in Rome but they follow Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean. But the people that follow the Vatican, Americans every day, for example, I could count -- I would say seven or maybe 10 maximum from the wire services, television and newspapers. So really it's a very small group of people but a very expertise group of people, people that have been here almost the whole time too. So they really know what they're talking about and that's why they're able to get this information out.
HEMMER: We're getting word now and I'm just hearing this that the Vatican now that apparently there will be a single statement given in about 30 minutes. There will not be an on-camera presentation but there will be a written statement. So as we await that, I just have one more curious question for you, for how you do your job here with the Vatican. The officials who engage with, do they like reporters? Do they like the media following their every move or at least trying to?
GALLAGHER: There's an easy answer to that question. It is no. The Vatican doesn't yet -- this is my criticism of the Vatican -- they don't yet use the media in the way that the pope actually shows them how to do, you know. And part of that I think is a sense of they're not prepared to deal with the media. They don't understand it. They are almost afraid of dealing with it. They don't like the fact when they talk sometimes the messages get skewered. And so, I do think that on the whole, and there are some notable exceptions of some cardinals, for example, who are very good of talking to the media, but on the whole, Vatican officials are very, very weary of the media.
HEMMER: I don't mean to turn this into "RELIABLE SOURCES" here. I find it fascinating.
GALLAGHER: It is. It's a fascinating place to work but it just takes a long time. And you cannot approach it from an American corporate culture idea.
HEMMER: Is that so?
GALLAGHER: It's a totally different place. I mean I always say you have to know how to speak English, Italian and Vaticanese. There's a whole other language there. And it takes a long time to...
HEMMER: Where does Latin fall into that?
GALLAGHER: Well, you need that as a base for all three.
HEMMER: Thanks, Delia. We'll talk again.
Again, the statement, the latest word we're getting here, perhaps 30 minutes away. But again, we've been waiting several hours and it's difficult to read much into this. We will all stand by here in Rome and wait for when the word comes out.
Soledad, back to you now in New York.
O'BRIEN: Thanks Bill. And when the word does out, what happens next? One hundred seventeen cardinals will convene in Rome to pick the next pope by secret ballot. My next guest has written very extensively about the process. Father Thomas Reese is the author of "Inside The Vatican." He's also editor of "American Magazine."
Nice to see you again. Thanks for being with us.
FATHER THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA" MAGAZINE: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: I want to talk a little bit about this delay. We've been announcing this sort of momentarily, we're expecting word from the Vatican and that has not come. Anything to read into that or no?
REESE: I don't think so except that obviously the pope is not dead yet because if he was dead, Cardinal Arranini (ph), who's the vicar of Rome, would come forward and would speak before camera to announce this to the world.
O'BRIEN: So the fact that it's a statement that's being read, a paper statement that's going to be released, means that the pope is still alive?
REESE: Is still alive, absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about the extraordinary moment, as you like to call it that is unfolding. What do you mean by that?
REESE: Well, obviously, you know the pope is now approaching death. And, I think he is approaching it like every Christian, with the recognition that he's going home. He's going home to the Father. He is -- we as Christians don't look as death as an end but as the opening of a door to a new life. You know, we don't just hold on to life to the very last moment. It's interesting. He didn't want to go back to the hospital. You know, that was a choice he made.
O'BRIEN: And it seems that he also has declined pain medicine so that he can sort of feel the final moment coming. But it's funny; you say that, you know, the Christians sort of go willingly and calmly. And I think that maybe most people who are not quite resigned to their fate don't go willingly and calmly and fight it every step of the way. He's sort of been a role model in how to face your final moment, hasn't he?
REESE: Yes, I think so. I mean he's, you know, struggled to continue to do the mission that God gave him. And yet, at the same time, when, you know, he recognizes the inevitable, that God is calling him home, he welcomes that.
O'BRIEN: In so many ways, he's larger than life. I mean, every single person you ask what's his legacy; you will get a different answer. His legacy, some people will say is that he was the pope to the world. His legacy knows that he really brought the idea of faith home to people who sort of maybe have lost track of that. What do you think the pope's legacy is?
REESE: It's such a huge legacy. I mean clearly, this is the pope who helped to bring about the end of the Cold War and who grew up during the '50s, you know, in schools where we practiced for bombing, you know, getting under our chair and the fear of the mushroom-shaped cloud. This is the man who brought to an end to that. Secondly, I think the way he reached out to the Jewish community. I mean, you know, for two millennium, you know, Christians has persecuted Jews. You know, and this is the man who said, "An end to that."
O'BRIEN: And took responsibility for the past.
REESE: And took -- and apologized during the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) celebration. You know who -- this is a man who...
(AUDIO GAP)
REESE: ... in terms of the...
(AUDIO GAP)
HARRIS: ... remains in Pennsylvania but her parents want her buried in Florida.
FBI agents have found bomb-making equipment at the home of Terry Nichols. Officials say the equipment buried in the yard include blasting caps. Nichols was convicted of conspiracy in the Oklahoma City bombing. Agents say the find does tie up loose ends in the case.
President Bush names members of a commission that will determine military base closings. He made the appointments without waiting for Senate confirmation. The White House says the president was able to do that by announcing the appointments while the Senate is in recess.
And it is time to spring forward to Daylight Saving Time. It begins at 2:00 a.m. tomorrow morning. That's when most of us will jump from 2:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m. in a split second, best to set your watches and clocks before hitting the sack tonight.
Those are the headlines. Now let's go back to Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Let's take a look at what's happening in Vatican City. As you can see tens of thousands of tourists and pilgrims have gathered in St. Peter's Square. We are watching as well, developments in Vatican City. We're expecting an update on the pope's condition. That update has been delayed. No word why as of yet. We're going to continue, obviously, to monitor this story and bring that update to you as soon as it happens. You're watching an extended version of AMERICAN MORNING on the weekend. We're back in a moment, stay with us.
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HEMMER: Just about 7:00 in the evening here in Rome, Italy. If you are just joining us, we anticipate some statement to be given out by Vatican officials at any time. We have been waiting on this word for about two and a half hours now. It keeps on being pushed back and delayed. Why? We cannot say. But as soon as it comes out, certainly, we will pass it along to you. We're all waiting for that now here in Rome, Italy.
If this is the end for Pope John Paul II, there are terms throughout this story that many of the viewers are starting to become very familiar with. One is called a conclave. This is essentially the gathering of cardinals who get together and vote and determine through a form of Democratic system who will lead the Roman Catholic Church next. And they meet in one of the most fascinating and exhilarating buildings in all the world. Here's Jonathan Mann on that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The gathering is called a conclave because the cardinals are considered locked in together cumme clave, with a key, unable to communicate with the outside world in any way, emerging only when they elect a new pope. Most people who visit the Vatican would hardly consider that punishment but the clerics for gather for a papal conclave have sometimes found it exhausting. The voting is slow and repetitive, the living arrangements often improvised and uncomfortable. Conditions will be a bit better this time. Under Pope John Paul II, the Vatican built Saint Martha House, the Domus Santa Marta, a hotel for visiting nuns and clergy that will be emptied of its guests and restricted to the cardinals and officials attending the conclave. Like the other places where the cardinals gather, it will be swept for microphones and listening devices. Its phone lines will be cut for the duration.
From Santa Marta, the cardinals will make their way each day to the Sistine Chapel where they meet to vote and probably vote again and again. In their first votes, perhaps as many as four of them a day, the cardinals will need to assemble a two-thirds majority in order to elect a pope. But depending on the pace of their balloting and other factors, the cardinals can decide after about 30 votes to elect a pope by a lesser mar gin, a simple majority. This was one John Paul II's reforms and it means that if a determined group of cardinals can stay loyal to a single candidate long enough, they stand a better chance of getting him elected. That new rule may be a key reason for a lengthy conclave.
All through the conclave, each time the votes are cast and counted, the ballots are burned. The crowds who gather in the Vatican's (UNINTELLIGIBLE), will know that additives in the smoke rising from Sistine Chapel will make it burn black for an inconclusive vote, white for a successful one. And shortly after see white smoke, they will hear the first news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abamus papum (ph).
MANN: Abamus papum (ph), we have a pope. A man will walk out as his predecessors have to present himself, who will be et orbi (ph), to the city, and the world.
Jonathan Mann, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: And this time around, the Sistine Chapel will have an entirely new look to it. A decade-long restoration project was completed right around 1994, about 11 years ago, and today it looks like it looked back in the early 1600s when Michaelangelo did such marvelous work on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. We're awating word from the Vatican; it could come at any moment, now, and because of that, our special edition of CNN's AMERICAN MORNING will continue into the next hour. I'll stay here live in Rome, Italy; Soledad O'Brien is back in New York City. Our special coverage continues here; 7:00 in the evening, in Vatican City.
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