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CNN Saturday Morning News

Al Qaeda Leader Reportedly Killed In Pakistan, Though No Body Recovered; Nagin Addresses Atlanta Evacuees; Eleven Iraqi Soldiers Killed; Allawi Wants To Run Iraq; Debate Over Tookie Williams' Execution

Aired December 03, 2005 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: We have breaking news this morning. CNN confirms a so-called big fish in the al Qaeda organization is killed in Pakistan. It's Saturday, December 3rd. We want to welcome all of our viewers in morning. I'm Betty Nguyen.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.

We begin with the revelation as we are learning more this morning about a senior al Qaeda leader killed in northern Pakistan. Americans may not be familiar with Abu Hamza Rabia, but the U.S. intelligence community certainly is. CNN national security correspondent David Ensor joins us now by phone with the latest on who Rabia is and how he was killed. Good morning, David. We are interested in both of these questions this morning.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, Tony, this is a very big fish according to U.S. intelligence officials. He is basically the heir of someone Americans have heard of, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the operations commander, the planner at the time of the 9/11 attacks.

He was then -- once he was captured he was replaced by Faraj al- Libbi. Once he was captured this man took over as the operations chief of al Qaeda, the man who plans the attacks. And he has now been killed, U.S. officials confirm.

Now, they are unwilling to say whether the U.S. had a role in this successful killing, but there are reports out there that it was done by the CIA using a hellfire missile from a Predator and talking to knowledgeable analysts, their feeling is that is very likely to be the case. That has the ring of truth to them.

Now, if that is the case, very strict procedures would have been followed. A lot of information would have been collected including what collateral damage, what other personnel might be killed if such a missile strike was ordered. So this would have been a presidential decision.

Now, this is, as I said, a very important fish, a significant development. U.S. officials are saying he was the head of the operations for al Qaeda. He was in his 30s, and we are told that he was an Egyptian citizen -- Tony. HARRIS: OK, David. I know there are still a lot of unanswered questions and we're going to get in just a moment to some of the reporting on the ground that seems to indicate that a missile is responsible for this, but I have to ask you a very basic question.

If this turns out to have been a missile attack, does the United States have Pakistani permission to fire such an attack on an al Qaeda target within the country's borders?

ENSOR: This, you know, is a very, very sensitive subject. And if it is a U.S. action, that is why they are not confirming it because of the sensitivity for the Pakistani government. This is being presented, of course, I gather, in Pakistan as a Pakistani operation and no doubt Pakistan was involved in tracking this man down.

But it's a delicate matter for president Musharraf. He has to worry about a strong opposition to his close alliance of the United States with many Pakistanis -- Tony.

HARRIS: OK. That's the point I wanted to make there. You're absolutely right, and all the reporting that you've done and that we know to be true is the president, Musharraf, faces a lot of opposition at home for his cooperation with the United States. David Ensor, I know you're going to continue to work this story for us and whenever you get any additional information please just let us know. David, thank you.

NGUYEN: All right. Right now we want to go straight to Pakistan and journalist Salim Bokhari who joins us now by phone from Islamabad with more on this al Qaeda killing. The first thing I want to ask you is, we have a little confusion here. There was talk earlier when I spoke with the Pakistani Interior Ministry about what exactly happened.

He said it was an explosion and that this al Qaeda member was working with explosives. Now we're hearing that it's -- the possibility that it was a missile attack. You're on the ground. What are you seeing?

SALIM BOKHARI, JOURNALIST: You see, the reports that we are receiving here are really contradictory to each other, but the authorities are claiming, and what the tribal leaders and eyewitnesses are saying -- the accounts that we received through the eyewitnesses and the tribal leaders, they claim that this was a missile attack from an unarmed air vehicle and they are insisting on this. Any number of people that we've spoken, they are insisting on this.

On the other hand, authorities are claiming that this was a blast in a house, a result of which five people were killed, including three foreigners, including this Rabia who was a Syrian-born -- they say that he is a Syrian-origin person and he was the commander of al Qaeda operating in that area.

Whereas the confirmation of his killing is concerned, that has now come from the top man. President Musharraf, according to wire agencies, has confirmed the killing of this person when he arrived at the Kuwait Airport.

NGUYEN: Are you getting any information from Pakistani officials on the ground there? As you ask them, well this is what witnesses telling us that it was a missile attack, your folks are saying it was an explosion, what are they telling you?

BOKHARI: Well you see, any number of officials that we have spoken to, the authorities were on the ground in north Waziristan and particularly close to this area where it happened, they are tight lipped. However, people in Islamabad, including the interior minister, has confirmed the killing of the gentlemen and he is insisting that this was a house -- that this was a blast in a house and not missile attack.

NGUYEN: And do the witnesses on the ground have any idea that this was maybe a Predator, a hellfire missile from a Predator drone? Do they know -- I guess the exact location of who may have fired this missile?

BOKHARI: You see, I mean, as far as the direct account is concerned, two people have spoken to me and they said that this was a missile attack from an unarmed air vehicle, meaning the drone or Predator of some kind which is obviously being operated in that part of north Waziristan by the American forces based in Afghanistan.

And I earlier said that the place where it had happened is very close to the Pakistan border and there is very likely that this attack was conducted by the American unarmed air vehicle.

NGUYEN: Just some very interesting and breaking developments in this. As we sort all of this out and try to get it to the official record, as to what exactly happened -- was it an explosion or was it a missile attack -- I have to ask you, in the scheme of thing, how big of a fish is this Abu Hamza?

BOKHARI: Well, you see -- I mean, his name has figured only very recently. I mean, it was really a shock when we heard about that kind of an al Qaeda operative living in that part of Waziristan where the Pakistan army has conducted several raids and the area was consistently being monitored.

Another interesting thing that I would like to share with you is that the body has not been claimed. The authorities have categorically stated that the body has been misplaced or has been taken away by the sympathizer of al Qaeda. So this is also very interesting point, that without having the body of the gentleman, the confirmation is given by the highest authority of this country.

NGUYEN: Salim, hold on just a second. Let's recap this. The body is missing. This Abu Hamza Rabia, the al Qaeda leader there on the ground, what is being called -- the man who's being called a big fish is missing?

BOKHARI: Yes, I'm very -- categorically speaking that so far the authorities are saying that they could not claim the body of Hamza Rabia. NGUYEN: What proof do you have that he's missing? How do you know?

BOKHARI: Well, you see, there is no clear version from the authorities so far, but it's expected that in another two or three, they will certainly confirm it again that the person who got killed in that blast or that -- whatever that missile attack is Hamza Rabia. That is what they are insisting, that that is Hamza Rabia was one of them who was killed.

NGUYEN: All right. Also, there are others killed in this. Are we learning now that they too are al Qaeda members? Because earlier it was told us to by the interior minister that these were locals.

NGUYEN: No, DMS' statement that has been wired through the news agencies say that three people out of these five killed were foreigners and one was Hamza Rabia. The identity of the other two is yet not known.

NGUYEN: All right. I want you to recap for me very quickly what you know about the possibility that this is a missile attack and the situation that you're learning that the body of Abu Hamza Rabia could be missing.

BOKHARI: Yes. I restate my position that. The reports that we are getting, A, from local people and the eyewitnesses and the tribal chiefs are saying this was a missile attack from an unarmed air vehicle; and the authorities are saying this was a blast in a house, as a result of which five people were killed.

Three of them were foreigners, and they still have not confirmed whether they have got the body, but the statement that we have heard so far is that his body was misplaced.

NGUYEN: Very interesting. Salim Bokhari, we appreciate your insight. Of course, we're going to be wanting to speak with you throughout the day. Very interesting developments on the ground there in Pakistan and, of course, we're going to keep you posted on all of it. Thank you and we'll be talking with you shortly.

HARRIS: We don't have a body.

NGUYEN: Apparently that's what we're hearing at this point.

HARRIS: According to this reporting, we don't have a body.

NGUYEN: And we don't know exactly what was the cause of the explosion. So there are a lot of questions surrounding this big fish who was reportedly killed this morning in northern Pakistan. Of course, we have all of our producers working the phones ...

HARRIS: Yes, and the international guys.

NGUYEN: ... trying to figure out exactly what is happening and we're going to keep you posted as well because we do have another live report in about 30 minutes. Plus, we are also going continue this story all day long. So you want to stay tuned to CNN for the latest update on the death of an al Qaeda commander.

HARRIS: While so many of us are making plans to go home for the holidays but so many Gulf coast residents still don't have a home to go to. And now this: more than three months after Hurricane Katrina destroyed so much, Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, says New Orleans is not in good enough shape to hold elections.

Last night the governor agreed to delay city elections that were set for February 4th. Mayor Ray Nagin and the city council are running for reelection and Mayor Nagin is making trips to find his constituents.

Today he's traveling to Atlanta where more than 40,000 of those who fled Louisiana during Katrina have landed. The mayor's holding a Town Hall meeting in Atlanta's Morehouse College in two hours. CNN's Renay San Miguel is at Morehouse.

Renay, good morning.

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Tony. And even though we're still a couple of hours away from the beginning of that town hall meeting, we do have a little bit of a line forming behind me here at the Martin Luther King International Chapel here at Morehouse College.

You can see some of the folks are starting to ask a few questions about when things get going here and when they can go ahead and come on in. It is very cold out here, so a lot of folks are braving that to come out and get an early start on this.

Mayor Ray Nagin has made it clear at some other town hall meetings he's held at Memphis and Houston, that he wants his citizens back home. He says that the threat of a hurricane will never, ever go entirely away, but that the levees are being repaired to be able to withstand a Category 3 hurricane, which is what they were supposed to withstand.

And the results of that, but he's made it clear during these town hall meetings that some utilities are coming back. Some parts of the neighborhoods are being worked on.

But if you go to the City of New Orleans Web site, cityofno.com, and you see some of the particulars under the look and leave program where folks can go back into their neighborhoods, can look, can assess the damage, can grab some belongings, but they have to be out by 4:00 that day, you can see that there are still an awful lot of caveats there for the residents.

They have to be careful about the water. They can't drink the water. It's only suitable for fighting fires and things like that. They have to be careful about bacteria and mold and the debris and certain buildings are still not able to -- are not habitable. So they have to be careful about buildings that are marked with a neon red sign. They are not to go into those.

They have to be careful about animals that used to be pets but are now basically wild animals and that can cause a problem. They are -- you know, children and the elderly and people with special needs are being told not to go into these neighborhoods.

So these are some of the questions that folks will have. If the mayor is telling people it's OK to come back, you know, what is it truly like in the neighborhoods that they used to live in? You know, just this past week, the Lower Ninth Ward, which is one of the hardest hit areas from Hurricane Katrina, from that levee that was breached in that neighborhood, residents were just allowed to go back in and take part in that look and leave program. This is some three months after the hurricane.

So here we are approaching Christmastime. They were chased away by Katrina right before Labor Day. A lot of the folks that we are expecting here are going to have a lot of questions about the safety issues, about the environmental impact, whether or not it's safe to go back with some of the chemicals that are still being found in high quantities in that area.

This chapel can hold 1,500 to 2,000 people. It will be interesting to see how many of those 40,000 to 50,000 Katrina evacuees are expected to show up on a very cold December day. Back to you.

HARRIS: Well, I certainly hope a lot do to get some of those questions answered. Boy, a lot of questions there, Renay. Thank you, CNN's Renay San Miguel for us in downtown Atlanta. Renay, thank you.

That town hall meeting with Mayor Ray Nagin begins at noon Eastern and we will bring some of his comments to you live here on CNN.

NGUYEN: We have some breaking news to tell you about out of Iraq this morning and a warning, too. The pictures that you're about to see are very graphic. These are pictures just coming in to CNN.

What we know is that attackers wielding small arms and detonating roadside bombs staged an attack in the late-morning hours near Diyala province, which is a town 62 miles north of the capital there in Baghdad. Now, 11 soldiers we are told, have died in this strike. And just as of recently, we've learned that body of the 11th soldier who in fact was kidnapped in the action has been recovered.

So in all, 11 Iraqi soldiers have been killed in an attack dealing with small arms fire and roadside bombs staged near a Diyala province, which is about 62 miles north of the capital.

And you are seeing the video coming in to CNN right now of the operations there in Iraq with 11 Iraqi soldiers killed. So there's a lot to tell you about this morning and we did want to warn you that the pictures are pretty graphic.

HARRIS: And, Betty, when we come back -- we'll take a break now, but when we come back, we'll update our top story, the apparent death of a top-ranking lieutenant in al Qaeda, a number two lieutenant, Abu Hamza Rabia. We will update that story for you and have the rest of the day's news right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: And if you're just joining us, good morning. We're following breaking news. Pakistani leaders say an al Qaeda big fish has been killed. There are unconfirmed reports that a CIA drone may have fired a missile in a village along the Pakistan border with Afghanistan.

People on the ground say missiles hit a house where a highly- ranked al Qaeda commander was killed. Reports are conflicting on this. I have to say that. Some reports claim the house exploded, many questions still unanswered. Stay with CNN for the latest details through the day on this.

New video has surfaced of two of the four western aid workers taken hostage in Iraq. The video shows American Tom Fox, age 54 and Briton Norman Kember, age 74. Along with the video, a written statement from the captors threatening to kill the men if demands are not met by Thursday

And New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin will hold a town hall meeting in Atlanta today with people displaced from his city by Hurricane Katrina. It begins at noon Eastern. CNN will have live coverage.

NGUYEN: Right now, we want to get you caught up to speed on the weather outside because it's changing and changing rapidly, and some folks are going to get some severe weather.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: From a deadly disease to a debate on death, should one death row inmate be spared? Supporters will gather in about five hours, but next we'll hear from both sides of the issue, plus more of your e-mails.

NGUYEN: First, though. Good morning, Boston. Look that the beautiful sunshine! Many of you will get a chance to see the 2004 World Series trophy. It's going to be on display at seven different Barnes & Noble locations this weekend. And your forecast? Well, Bonnie will have that just a little bit later, but I can tell you it's probably going to be cold where you are. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: In other news across America now, a federal judge ruled that random bag searches on New York subways are constitutional. That ruling comes in a lawsuit on behalf of several subway riders. The judge calls the searches meant to deter terrorism and a minimal intrusion of privacy.

Well, gangster rap mogul Irving Lorenzo and his brother have been a acquitted of money laundering. They were charged with laundering a million dollars for a notorious drug kingpin. Irving Lorenzo goes by the name Irv Gotti and he heads the label formerly known as Murder Inc.. It is now called the Inc.

And taking the scenic route was a bad idea for a young Idaho man, but Ian Reed (ph) is safe and sound now. After four days and nights stranded in a mountain snowstorm with no food or water, a rescue helicopter finally spotted Reed and brought him out. Thank goodness.

Here's word that comes from Brad Pitt's folks. They say that he is seeking to adopt Angelina Jolie's children. That's right. The actor's publicist announced that Pitt has filed a legal petition seeking to change the names of Jolie's two adopted children to Jolie- Pitt. Fan magazines report that Jolie and Pitt are expected to marry soon.

HARRIS: And still ahead, he was the man the Bush administration chose to temporarily lead Iraq after the war. Now he wants the job full-time. On the campaign trail with former Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. That's next.

NGUYEN: Plus Tookie Williams is scheduled to die in ten days, but his supporters say the Nobel Peace Prize nominee should live. We have a live debate right here on CNN Saturday morning.

HARRIS: But first this morning's money break. It's a battle about video games that opponents on both sides of the issue aren't playing around. In Illinois, a U.S. district judge rules a new law banning the sale of violent or sexual video games to minors is unconstitutional.

The state's governor says he plans to appeal the judge's decision. The governor argues children are being harmed by exposure to video games in which character goes on killing sprees or sexual escapades.

HARRIS: Very quickly now, let's get to Shaukat Sultan who is Pakistan's army spokesman and the press secretary to Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf. Mr. Sultan, good morning to you.

VOICE OF SHAUKAT SULTAN, PAKISTANI ARMY SPOKESMAN: Yes, good morning.

HARRIS: We're trying to get some clarity on the story today that we've been reporting on CNN as to the death of Abu Hamza Rabia, a top- ranking al Qaeda lieutenant. What can you tell us about his death?

SULTAN: Yes. There was an explosion in North Waziristan agents (ph), to their back. There were five killed and dead reportedly. Three out of them were foreigners and one of them reportedly is Hamza al Rabia. Out of those, he's reported to be a top al Qaeda and after the arrest of Abu Faraj al-Libbi, he's known to be the al Qaeda operational leader in this part of the world.

HARRIS: Mr. Sultan, this happened on Wednesday, is that what you're telling us?

SULTAN: Yes. It happened on -- not Wednesday. It happened on ... HARRIS: OK. And you're telling us that he's -- there are reports, let me get to the crux of the matter at least as we're getting details this morning, some still unconfirmed reports that maybe you can bring some clarity to for us. We're getting unconfirmed reports that this death was the result of a missile attack. Can you confirm that for us?

SULTAN: No, I cannot confirm that report. I don't have the information with me. This was a result of an accidental explosion.

HARRIS: An explosion. We even have reports that there are people on the ground who tell us that the body of Mr. Rabia has disappeared. Do you -- does the Pakistan government have custody of the body?

SULTAN: No. We don't have custody of the body. Probably his body was taken away by his comrades or the police. We don't have custody of the body.

HARRIS: So Mr. Sultan, what is the information? How is it that you can confirm for us that in fact this high-ranking al Qaeda lieutenant is in fact dead?

SULTAN: Probably this is the intelligence reports that show that the three people who died one of them is reportedly Hamza Rabia.

HARRIS: I'm sorry, the phone was breaking up just as you were answering that question. Once again, what is the confirmation that you have that you can share with us that Rabia is in fact among the dead?

SULTAN: These are the intelligence reports that show that three people who died, one of them is probably Hamza al Rabia.

HARRIS: Does the United States, in agreement with the government of Pakistan have the authority granted by Pakistani officials in the government to fire on al Qaeda targets? Does the United States have permission to do that?

SULTAN: Well, there are quite a few intelligence activities that I may not be able to speak on the media. However, in the Pakistan territory, all of the operations are and will be carried out by the Pakistan authorities.

HARRIS: OK. Do you have members of the military in the area investigating the scene of this explosion?

SULTAN: Well, I don't have to go into all these details. He has died only two days back. As you know that there are operations going on in that area in North Waziristan, but where the explosion took place exactly military wasn't present there. However, the operations are going on in the entire North Waziristan. I would not be able to speak or give you any more details on it.

HARRIS: If you could clear up this perception that's out there. The perception that we're left with is that Abu Hamza Rabia was working with explosives and that somehow or another the explosives detonated in his house. Is that the impression you want to leave with us?

SULTAN: That is the information that we have.

HARRIS: OK. I'm sorry. I didn't hear that last part of that answer and is that what you want to leave it? Is there any more information that you want to share with us on this death?

SULTAN: I said that is the information that we have. That probably it was an accidental explosion that resulted in his death and his colleagues. I don't have any more information on it.

HARRIS: Has the government of Pakistan been tracking Rabia?

SULTAN: There are quite a few intelligence, I would say, information that I may not be able to disclose. However, as you know that Pakistan is really tracking the terrorists and particularly the foreigners who are using Pakistani soil, are reportedly hiding in the area. We are tracking everyone on Pakistani soil, and argued particularly by a name this fellow, but we are really tracking anyone who is in Pakistan.

HARRIS: Will you, and your government be checking the still unconfirmed claims that this death was as a result of a missile, a hellfire missile fired by the United States? Will your government be checking into those claims?

SULTAN: I said that there are operational details. I may not be able to go into those details at this moment, but certainly these are the operations going on, there are coalition partners with whom Pakistan is working. There is intelligence sharing and as regards to operations fight (ph) in Pakistan territory fight (ph) Pakistan territory are carried out by Pakistan.

HARRIS: OK, Mr. Sultan, thank you for your time. We appreciate it and we'll get more on this story at the top of the hour from CNN's David Ensor.

NGUYEN: All right. We are going to go to Iraq now. Eleven Iraqi soldiers as we just told you about not too long ago, killed today in the Diyala province which is north of Baghdad. CNN's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson joins us live from Baghdad with the latest on these killings. Nic, what do you know?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Betty, it appears to have been somewhat of a complex ambush about 60 miles north of Baghdad. An Iraqi army convoy was ambushed by a roadside bomb. Now after the roadside bomb went off, the soldiers got out of their vehicles and began searching for the insurgents in the area and according to one of the soldiers who was being treated in hospital later, then the insurgents started shooting at them, firing rocket- propelled grenades at them.

He said they were forced to lie in the dirt, try and lie behind mounds of toil soil to take cover from that attack and in that attack, 10 soldiers were killed. One of the Iraqi army majors was taken prisoner there and was kidnapped. His body was found shortly thereafter, that bringing the total dead to 11 in that particular attack.

But while those attacks are going on, the political track here is also heating up. It's less than two weeks the elections now and one of the former political figures here is the former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and he is really beginning to get his campaign going right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): The man of the hour, man of the future. That's how former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is selling himself to voters in a slick new TV campaign.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI NATIONAL ALLIANCE: This means that, you know, we have the vision, what needs to be done in Iraq. We have the strength to do it.

ROBERTSON: Allawi, a secular Shia is all about projecting his strength, an image garnered from nine months in office last year. After the U.S. administration in Iraq hand picked him to lead the transitional government, now is in a battle that will put the winners in power for the next four years.

ALLAWI: My slate is really to focus and to expose the problems of the security in Iraq.

ROBERTSON: His particular appeal is secular. Reaching across the sectarian divide to Sunnis, fearful that the religious Shia- dominated government is lashing out against their community. Failures by the current government are the staple of Allawi's TV promo.

They promised they would provide jobs, hospitals, schools, that they would make electricity work, improve the quality of life, the actors say, but Allawi's time in office was less than perfect. He failed to resolve the same problems his ad campaign implies he can now fix. More damaging, he fell from favor and power amid allegations of corruption in his government, a charge he vigorously challenges.

ALLAWI: When this evidence was presented to me immediately I took action and asked the deputy prime minister and the minister of finance to investigate.

ROBERTSON: In the run-up to the elections now, Allawi has more pressing issues. One of his party's candidates has just been assassinated. As political and sectarian killings mount, Allawi says his group is all the more important.

ALLAWI: What we present, the country deserves really. It deserves unity. It deserves an Iraqi nonsectarian government and this is what our slate represents.

ROBERTSON: Allawi knows running on that slate may cost him his life, too. In the past two years, he's survived multiple assassination attempts. (END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: The stakes are very high in these elections and if Allawi's brand of muscular secularism doesn't prove to be as popular as he hopes, he could really find himself in a political wilderness, an outcast if you will in a landscape that will likely be dominated by that big Shia religious block that's currently in government, Betty.

NGUYEN: Nic Robertson in Baghdad. We, of course, will be watching. Thank you, Nic.

HARRIS: And we want to get quickly now to our White House correspondent Elaine Quijano who is with us now. Elaine, let's take our time and talk through this because I don't want any of us to get too far ahead of what we have here. I know that you have some pictures that are fairly dramatic pictures of the White House in motion this morning at about the 8:00 hour. I don't know how much context you can bring us on those pictures that we're about to see.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't know if dramatic is exactly the word, Tony, but certainly interesting to note, given what else is happening. But we have to emphasize, of course, all we have right now are sort of various threads and it's unclear right now if any of them can even be woven together at this point.

What we know is that President Bush is scheduled to leave for Camp David here this morning as you mentioned in the 8:00 Eastern hour. He did that, but before he did, what was interesting to note is he was coming from not the residence, but from the oval office and what appeared to be a meeting with top advisers. Now again, very cautious on this. We have nothing official yet, still waiting to find out, exactly what, if anything, that meeting might have been.

We have to also emphasize that it is not at all unusual for President Bush to receive his daily briefing when he's here in Washington from -- directly from his advisers. Now, the president did not say anything as he left the White House today. He headed to Camp David. He will be there actually less than a day or so. He's coming back tomorrow afternoon.

We may have some more information later in the day, but interesting to note. Again, the president early on a Saturday morning leaving the White House from the oval office and given what is happening, certainly some may draw the conclusion that there may be some connection, but at this point, Tony, still very early yet, too early to say.

HARRIS: OK, so just to be absolutely clear on this. Yes there was a lot of activity and a lot of news coming out of Pakistan this morning and we're seeing some activity in the oval office, in the White House, but silly at this point to connect the two together. Is that about right, Elaine?

QUIJANO: Well, yes. We are just unable to do this at this point. Again, the president every day gets briefings, intelligence briefings and again, here in Washington, it is quite common for him to meet with people and get those briefings face-to-face. So we need to kind of put those caveats in when talking about this, but again, just something to keep in mind...

HARRIS: Sure.

QUIJANO: ... as the story continues to develop.

HARRIS: OK. Let's sort of leave it there. Elaine, thank you, appreciate it.

NGUYEN: The keep point of this story is continuing to develop. There are a lot of unanswered questions that we are hoping to get the answers to. Once that happens and we are of course are going to bring it to you just as soon as possible.

HARRIS: The answers are leading us to other questions and it's all very confusing at this point.

NGUYEN: You get one answer and then another answer, so which is the real answer? What is the official answer? That's what we're searching for now. All right. We'll get back to that throughout the morning so stay tuned for that. Also we want to take about a matter of life or death. We've been asking all morning long whether you think the life of a reputed gang founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams should be spared.

HARRIS: He is scheduled to be executed in a California prison in 10 days. Supporters say he's a changed man. Others aren't buying it. Coming up, we'll take a look at both sides of this life or death issue. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: I want to check our top stories right now. First up, some breaking news out of Pakistan. We've been following it all morning long. U.S. and Pakistani officials say a top al Qaeda commander has been killed in an explosion in northern Pakistan.

His name is Abu Hamza Rabia. Now there are unconfirmed reports that a house Rabia was in earlier this week was hit by a missile from an unmanned CIA aircraft. Those are unconfirmed reports, but Pakistani officials say it was an accidental blast, saying that he was working with explosives at the time. So we are working to clarify exactly what happened there.

Tests are now in on another story here showing an Indonesian woman who died earlier this week. She died from bird flu. The World Health Organization says the 25-year-old is the eighth to die from bird flu in Indonesia. More than 130 people all across Asia have been sickened by the illness, 69 have died so far.

An estimated 40,000 Louisiana hurricane evacuees are now temporarily housed in Atlanta and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin is holding a town hall meeting with those evacuees. That is set to kick off in under 90 minutes at Atlanta's Morehouse College. We're going to bring you some of that town hall meeting live when it happens. HARRIS: Say the name Stanley "Tookie" Williams and you'll get outrage from people who are for and against his request for clemency. Williams, co-founder of the notorious street gang the Crips is now on death row for the murders of four people.

Should "Tookie" Williams be executed? We have guests on both sides of the issue joining us this morning. Rich Dieter is with the Death Penalty Information Center and Michael Paranzino is with throwawaythekey.org. Gentlemen, good talk to you this morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

HARRIS: Richard, let me start with you. Are you fighting for "Tookie" Williams or for everyone who's on death row?

RICHARD DIETER, DEATH PENALTY INFO. CTR: Well we address the problems of the death penalty in the United States and the death penalty is used not for all murders, but for those people whom society feels it should give up on, people who are such a future danger to society that they should be eliminated from the human race. That judgment was wrong in the case of Stanley Williams. He has proved to be not a future danger and is in fact contributed to the safety of society.

HARRIS: All right, Michael. What do you think about that?

MICHAEL PARANZINO, WWW.THROWAWAYTHEKEY.ORG: Future danger is one element of the death penalty. Look, Stanley "Tookie" Williams is a four-time unrepentant killer. He refuses to inform on his fellow killers and thugs who could still be involved in criminal enterprises today. So "Tookie" Williams has sided with the killers and thugs who he's protecting because he doesn't want to be termed a snitch rather than the teens of color who are the majority of victims of gang violence.

HARRIS: Richard, do you believe he's done enough good work to deserve clemency from Governor Schwarzenegger?

DIETER: I think this is the kind of issue that Governor Schwarzenegger should consider. Let all the fact facts be played out. I don't pretend to know all the facts. I do know he was commended by President Bush for his activities. I do know he's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

I do know that he's written quite a few children's books and a lot of objective observers feel that he has done something toward restitution. Eliminating him I think sends the wrong message. It sends the message that no matter what you do, we're going kill you. You know, 24 years later, I don't know that it makes any sense to just take his life at this point.

HARRIS: Hey, Michael, clemency is clearly available to the governor. If you don't use it in this kind of a case when the man seems to have redeemed himself and helped others, nine books, speaking to kids whenever he can. When do you use it? PARANZINO: This would be the worst case to use it. He has never accepted responsibility for killing four people. The Yangs, an entire family destroyed. And Albert Owens, killed lying down on the floor, killed brutally.

Never apologized, never corrected for that and refuses to inform on fellow criminals that could be stopped if he would just speak out. He cares more about protecting the criminals than he does the urban communities who are victims of gang violence. That's not repentance.

HARRIS: So who do you reserve clemency for, white collar criminals?

PARANZINO: I'm not a big fan of clemency for killers. If you're stealing cars and you've learn turned your life around, by all means go to the governor. If you've done other similar crimes, drug crimes, by all means, let's get in rehab and seek clemency.

HARRIS: Hey, Richard, you can't seem to claim that he's been denied due process. Hasn't he had his day in court time and time again?

DIETER: Yes. He's certainly been through the appeals process. I think this is a question of mercy, of the exceptional case of the governor stepping in. The courts no longer have many issues.

You know, as far as his accepting responsibility, he does claim that he was innocent of these crimes and certainly we know the system is not infallible, but I think it's a little unreasonable to say someone should take responsibility for something he didn't do or he claims he didn't do. I realize the courts have found differently, but you know.

HARRIS: You think he got a fair trial?

PARANZINO: A jury -- I'm sorry, that was for me? A jury of 12 convicted him. The most liberal courts in America sit in California, both state and Federal. They have all upheld the convictions. This is not about -- no one with a straight face is saying he's innocent.

Stop the presses, a killer says he's innocent. They all do. This is about the so-called mercy. Let's say the Yangs didn't have mercy, Albert Owens didn't have mercy. Let's save mercy for someone that does everything they can to try to rat out their fellow criminals.

HARRIS: Michael, very quickly, let me have you respond to this e-mail. It makes no sense to keep someone on death row for almost 30 years. He's a changed and redeemed man. Let him tell the story to our young men. Let him be the messenger.

PARANZINO: The best message we can send to other thugs and would-be killers is see what happened to "Tookie" Williams. He is finally going face justice after stalling the system for 25 years through frivolous appeals. He is finally going to face justice and the California, the people of California are fed up and may make the next killer face justice as well. It's a great signal to send and the governor ought to send it.

HARRIS: OK, Michael, thank you. Thank you Richard for a spirited debate. We'll have more on this in our 11:00 hour. Gentlemen, thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Well, right now, we want to know what our viewers think about it. You've heard both sides. All morning long we've been asking for your opinion on this issue and we've gotten an earful to tell you the truth about it. If you haven't weighed in just yet, now is your chance. Send them in, your e-mails, to weekends@cnn.com and we'll read some of them on the air right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: I'm telling you.

NGUYEN: This is a busy day.

HARRIS: I've got e-mails for us.

NGUYEN: This deals with the question today with...

HARRIS: Hot off the press.

NGUYEN: ... "Tookie" Williams.

HARRIS: Oh, we can't hear you.

NGUYEN: I have problems with my mic. We have someone working on it right now.

HARRIS: Really, it's the only way.

NGUYEN: One of those days, Tony.

(CROSSTALK)

NGUYEN: So we can hear.

HARRIS: All right. Our e-mail question of the morning, do you believe that Stanley "Tookie" Williams has done enough as an anti-gang activist to warrant his clemency? And the first e-mail response comes from Bill who writes, "enough to offset murder and starting a crime gang? What a foolish question. Nope. He is not needed by anyone on this planet. He needs to return to his maker. I think it will be a downstairs trip myself."

NGUYEN: Wow, OK, well, Susan Mason has this to say and it's quite long. "The problem with your capital punishment system is that by the time you get around to finally executing the person, it's usually not the same person who committed the crime. In Mr. Tookie's case, he clearly is a different person today and while I don't think he should be freed, I don't understand why you have to take his life. I think it sends a message that people can't change. So if you're a punk, gang member today, you will always be and there's no point in trying to redeem yourself."

HARRIS: Fired up, fired up, thank you for your responses. I think we'll get to more of these in the next hour. At least I'll use some of them in an interview that's coming up at the 11:00 hour.

NGUYEN: It's a hot issue and of course, we're going to stay on that and let you know how people think on both sides.

All right. Now, doctors say the world's first face transplant is a success, but should it have been done in the first place? People are asking.

HARRIS: Coming up next hour, we'll speak to a doctor who weighs in on the issue right here on CNN SATURDAY MORNING. We'll be right back.

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