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CNN Saturday Morning News

Parking Garage Collapses in New Jersey; BP Has Capped Leak, But Will It Hold?; Conversation With Memphis Tea Party and NAACP; How You Can Protect Yourself From Foreclosure

Aired July 17, 2010 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello there, everybody and welcome to the CNN Center here in Atlanta, Georgia. This is CNN SATURDAY MORNING for this July the 17th. I'm T.J. Holmes. It is 8:00 a.m. where I sit here in Atlanta, 7:00 a.m., in New Orleans. Wherever you may be, we are glad you are right here with us.

We have been keeping an eye on this live picture for quite some time and lo and behold, the picture changed for us this week and it changed for the better. Yes, folks, that is still a live picture, 5,000 feet below the surface of the water.

But what's missing? Oil. You don't see the oil coming from the well this morning. That is good news but still we are not out of the woods yet with this well. We'll explain exactly what's happening and why today and even the next couple of hours could be crucial hours.

Also, you have been seeing a lot of the nasty back-and-forth and vitriol between the NAACP and the Tea Party this week. Racial comments have been made back and forth after the NAACP condemned some of the racist elements of the Tea Party movement, they say.

Well, not all the back and forth between the Tea Party and the NAACP has been nasty. I had a calm, reasoned conversation with the head of the Memphis Tea Party and the head of the DC chapter of the NAACP. You will see our conversation here this morning.

Let's me get you a check of some of the stories that are making headlines right now. This is happening right now. At least one person is still trapped, we're told. Look at the pictures here. This is a partially collapsed garage. This is in Hackensack, New Jersey. This thing went down almost 24 hours ago now. At least one person, one man is still trapped in there.

Rescue teams are having to work so slowly because there is a threat that the thing could collapse even more, which could further hurt the situation, maybe injure the man who's in there, injure him even more than he's possibly already injured but also could endanger the rescue workers.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

STEVE SANDBERG, REPORTER, 1010 WNS RADIO: Still a very delicate operation. Search and rescue crews are trying to make their way, tunnel beneath three stories of pancaked parking garage underground to try to reach not only the individual trapped in this car that they were able to get a visual on yesterday using a camera.

They were able to snake through the debris, but also trying to reach a second vehicle. Both, according to surveillance video taken from the garage at the time of the collapse, were on the move. So at the very least they believe there was a motorist in either vehicle. There could be possibly a passenger in one of the other vehicles as well.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HOLMES: Right now, no one confirmed to be in that rubble, but police say another two or three people are still unaccounted for.

What you're seeing here is the aftermath of what is being called a first in Mexico's drug war. A car bomb was used for the first time in the war between the drug cartels and the Mexican police. The result of this car bomb was two police officers, a paramedic and a civilian all killed.

They were actually lured to the scene by a fake emergency call and that is when that bomb exploded. This was happening in Ciudad, Mexico. This is right across the border from El Paso, Texas. One security expert says this could be actually a turning point in the drug war.

Let's turn back now to day 89 of the Gulf oil disaster. BP has installed a new cap as you know on that well. That was in place on Thursday. This came after a couple days of delays but still they wanted to make sure they were doing this right. BP expects now to continue with this integrity testing.

So right now no oil is coming out. The thing is capped for the most part right now. You are seeing video of some oil being burned off. But what's happening below the surface, there you see it, no oil is coming out. These tests are trying to measure just how strong that well is.

They're trying to build up the pressure. It's at 6,700 PSI. They want it get it maybe close to the 7,500 PSI. That would be ideal. But still, it is holding right now. That's good news. Experts unsure whether this means though because of the still not optimal PSI level, if there is any kind of a leak, if oil is getting out anywhere else. But right now, so far, so good.

Our Reynolds Wolf is in the Gulf for us. He's been keeping an eye on this Gulf disaster throughout. He's made several trips to the Gulf. Reynolds, good morning to you once again. Again, so far, so good. It is a great picture to see no oil coming out. We're not out of the woods yet but right now we're in a pretty good place.

REYNOLDS WOLF, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Absolutely. It's kind of like you were watching it, it's a very careful optimism. It is great to see that finally after the first time in over 80 days we're not seeing oil just floating its way up to the surface. That certainly is good news. But the problem is the situation is -- there is a great deal of trepidation with this. I want you to think of a giant champagne bottle with a cork right inside. Then someone shakes the bottle like crazy. You have that kind of situation with this. You can get a lot of pressure, a lot of force that's building up right into that containment dome or almost, as I mentioned, like a cork.

We've been using a new kind of an (INAUDIBLE) this morning, a new term. We call it PSI. It is not unusual to hear that if you happen to be in say the scientific community or you happen to work with tires or anything that has to do with pressure.

But just for the layman, to give you an idea what PSI stands for, it is pounds per square inch. So when you have say 67 PSI, which is the current reading, that is the equivalent of 6,700 pounds of force exerted per square inch against this containment dome. This device is able to contain up to say a PSI around 8,000. They say that the higher the number, that's actually pretty good news because it means they've really capped this, they've got a real good read on it.

The problem is though, you would think that a lower PSI would be great news. But it really wouldn't because if the number starts dropping, that would indicate possibly that there is some kind of a leak or rupture below the ocean floor. That can be catastrophic.

So you want it to be in that sweet spot, somewhere from 67 to about 75 or even a little bit higher. That's the range we are looking for. It has been going up at a rate of anywhere from 2 to 10 PSI, on average, per hour. That's the information given to us by Admiral Thad Allen yesterday.

We've been watching this not only with the cameras that many of you across the nation have been seeing, but also with a variety of gauges under water. You also have a team of underwater robots that have been keeping a sharp eye on this as well.

Remember, T.J., that this is going to either be a temporary cap that's going to hold the oil back, or they can actually use the valves in the top of the cap that would send it all the way to the surface some 5,000 feet to a variety of container ships that can bring the oil back to the coast. That is certainly the good news.

Remember all of this, every bit of this is temporary. The way you're really going to stop this is not one, but two relief wells that should be in place by the time we get to mid-August. That would finally end the story in terms of the leak. But then you've got the clean-up and of course the effect it can have long-term on the economy and the environment. That's going to take quite some time to see how that plays out.

HOLMES: We're going to deal with that for a while. But a lot of people as we know and it makes perfect sense, the first thing you got to do is stop the oil from coming out. They have done that for the first time in three months this week.

WOLF: No doubt. HOLMES: But a long road ahead. Reynolds, we appreciate you. We will be checking in with Reynolds throughout the morning and while Reynolds is there, we have Karen Maginnis here keeping an eye on things across the country. It is summer. It is hot in places, but is this abnormally hot? Is it dangerously hot?

(WEATHER REPORT)

HOLMES: We're coming up on 10 minutes past the hour here now. We've got more evidence that in fact we are still in a housing crisis. Our Josh Levs keeping an eye on some new and disturbing numbers. Good morning to you Josh.

JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you T.J. I have news for you on how foreclosures and repossessions are changing the housing market now again. Also, how to get help and where to find the nation's most affordable homes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Twelve minutes past the hour now. One out of every 78 homes in this country at risk right now of foreclosure. That is according to a new report we are seeing this week. What exactly is happening out there in the housing markets? What can you do to protect yourself? Josh, can you protect yourself these days?

LEVS: Sort of. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who thought they were doing the right things and did do a lot of things right and still ended up in foreclosure. There are others out there, which is true, of people who bought homes that they couldn't afford in the first place, we all know it. It runs the gamut.

But as you see these large numbers, it's a reminder of how widespread this problem is. Let me bring you all the latest numbers we got just this week out of Realtytrac. Foreclosures in 2010 for the first six months, they tabulated how much through the end of June. First six months of the year, 1.65 million. At that rate, basic math, it would be more than three million for the year and that would be a record ever. So that's huge.

Now this is where we get that figure. Based on those numbers, you can say that if you look across the country, one out of every 78 homes can be considered to be at risk of foreclosure. There's something that's a little bit of good news, a little bit of a silver lining, maybe.

Even though there have been so many foreclosures this year, the actual rate of foreclosure has gone down a little bit from the last six months of last year. It's gone down 5 percent. You have a little bit of a slowing. But what you have at the same time is an increase in the number of bank repossessions. That's actually gone up 5 percent in recent months.

Here's what is happened and we got some video. Basically you have two things happening at once. You have banks that are in general lenders, are working more with holders out there of mortgages to give them help, to modify mortgages and also in some cases to allow them to sell their homes for less than they think they're worth.

At the same time while all that's happening, what you also have are banks need the repossessions sooner. We were hearing last year about all these homes that were left basically sitting there for a while. They were foreclosed and then the homes would just sit there six, seven, eight months.

Some homeless people would move into them or someone else who lost a home would move into a random foreclosed home. So banks are now moving faster T.J. to try to do something about repossession, to try to take these homes sooner after foreclosure.

HOLMES: But a lot of people think they are getting there. They might be facing foreclosure right now or on the brink. What are they supposed to do?

LEVS: Let me show you a few websites because there's some ways that you can help online. I want to let everyone know where you can get this. If you go on to this website right here, makinghomeaffordable.gov. This is the government's website that's designed to help you. Some people say they are getting help through this system.

And also while you are there, you can get some more information about what's going on in your area. There are also some resources at cnnmoney.com that talk about what's going on with foreclosures and how it's been changing recently.

Also I want to show you this. Take a look. We have a spread that just came out recently about the most affordable homes in America. I point this out because some people are taking advantage of the fact that there are foreclosures out there, but also because some people are looking to move somewhere where they can actually afford a home after foreclosing in maybe a bigger city.

We have a list of the most affordable homes in America. I posted links to everything I just showed you up on my Facebook page. It's facebook.com/joshlevscnn, also at Twitter, joshlevscnn. So hopefully these resources will give you a little bit of help to make some choices T.J. and none of us wants to see this record continue.

HOLMES: Josh, we appreciate the new numbers. Thanks so much.

The replacement named to fill the late Senator Robert Byrd's vacant seat. Details on who will take over and just how long he might stay in office.

Also, have you seen the back and forth this week between the NAACP and the Tea Party? At first the NAACP denouncing the racist elements of the Tea Party movement. Then some of the leaders of the Tea Party movement calling the NAACP racist. Sixteen minutes past the hour. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Have you been watching this raw debate this week over racism? This back-and-forth we've seen between the NAACP and the Tea Party movement. Taking a new twists and turns over the past couple of days, another one new today is that one of the Tea Party movement's most visible spokesmen has now pulled a controversial blog post, one that even had some of his own supporters saying he went too far.

In the blog Tea Party express spokesman Mark Williams wrote a mock letter from the NAACP President Ben Jealous to President Abraham Lincoln. One line said black people quote, don't cotton to the whole emancipation thing, end quote. A lot of people wonder is that really the way to try to move our conversation forward.

I've been talking about this issue all week, this week as well, did get a chance to talk to Ben Jealous, the NAACP president and this was before the blog posting that Jealous talked about, how Tea Party groups should turn away from what he calls racist elements.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN TODD JEALOUS, PRESIDENT, NAACP: We see Tea Party across this country, folks there holding up signs and shaking them. There's no sergeant at arms who goes, takes down the sign and escorts them that we would do at our rallies. Somebody showed up with that sort of foolishness.

Look, with increasing influence comes increasing responsibility to act responsibly. You are irresponsible when you called us racists. We have never called you racist. That's a false debate. We've simply asked you to repudiate the racists in your midst and let this debate be about taxes and policy. Don't turn this into something that feels like the 1930s.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Also earlier this week, had a discussion with Mark Skoda, the founder and chairman of the Memphis Tea Party and Hilary Shelton, director of the NAACP's Washington bureau. These are the two groups involved, NAACP and the Tea Party movement. Had both representatives on this wasn't like most of the conversations you may have seen, all the vitriol, the nasty back and forth. These two gentlemen sat down and respectfully had a conversation.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: I'll start with you, Mark. With the backdrop of my hometown of west Memphis, Arkansas back there. Let me ask you first of all, as you heard from Ben Jealous, just asking for Tea Party leaders like yourself to repudiate some of those racist elements. First question, do you agree that there are some racist elements to the Tea Party movement?

MARK SKODA, FOUNDER, PRES., MEMPHIS TEA PARTY: First of all, I think I disagree with the notion that the Tea Party movement is embracing racism. I think clearly in our nation there are people who are racists on both sides of the question, people who, both on the African-Americans who believe all whites are evil and some whites who regrettably believe that people of color are evil.

The Tea Party however has been very clear about this. Indeed we have rejected any forms of racism, derogatory conversations relative to people's gender or color or creed or sexual or orientation. I would suggest to you the problem we see is I believe somewhat of a theater around this whole issue, in particular with the declaration that apparently is going to come out from the NAACP.

HOLMES: Mark, let me ask you. I want to back up to something you said. You say that the NAACP is accusing the Tea Party of embracing -- that was your word, of in some way embracing racism. Do you really believe really that's what the NAACP has said?

SKODA: Well, here's the problem. I think at the end of the day, we don't know what -- one of the things I've tried not to comment on is what this supposed resolution is going to be. They haven't indicated what it is going to contain. They have a teaser up on the website. So I'm not going to speak to the NAACP's final perspective.

However, I would suggest that it has been indicated that they've used some old narrative which would suggest that racial epitaphs have been used. They've suggested that signage represents the entirety of the movement. Regrettably this is just not the truth. I think at the end of the day while there has been certainly a lot of emotion in the Tea Party movement and certainly a lot of activism, I think in general, most people have rejected all forms of racism.

HOLMES: Let me let you get in here now. On his point there, of course there are racial -- quite frankly there are idiots in any bunch you put together. You're going to find a couple here or there. But to do something on this scale, an actual resolution -- yeah, we'll see the text of it but does it send the wrong message? Was this the message you were trying to send, the message that a lot of people got, was that the NAACP says the Tea Party movement is racist?

HILARY SHELTON, DIR., NAACP WASHINGTON BUREAU: I hope it doesn't, people don't get that particular message. Quite frankly, the language in the resolution calls upon those within the Tea Party movement to repudiate the racist elements of the Tea Party. They were not calling upon the Tea Party movement to do anything if we were painted with such a broad brush and saying the whole party movement was racist.

We know African-Americans and others that are part of the Tea Party movement. As a matter of fact, some of them even thanked us for raising that issue. They want to be active within the movement. They're part of one of the more rational but clearly focused components of the Tea Party movement and they want to continue to do that.

They find themselves in the awkward position of having policy positions of their own that supports actually smaller government and supports lower taxes. But they find themselves side by side with some within the Tea Party movement that would carry those very racist signs. The kind of folks that would spit on African-American members of Congress, the kind of folks that would call the only sitting, the first sitting member of the U.S. Congress that happens to be gay the "F" word and call congressman (INAUDIBLE) congressman from Kansas City, Missouri, the "N" word. So that raises some concerns. We're simply calling upon them to actually notice that this being utilized that way.

HOLMES: Hilary, is it good enough that you heard -- Mark Skoda just a second ago, he rejects that type of stuff you are talking about. This is the leader of the Tea Party sitting right here with us. He repudiates that. I mean what else or how many leaders do you need to come out and do that? What is acceptable (ph)?

SHELTON: They all really need to. Quite frankly we know that there are six national sections of the Tea Party movement, segments of. Dick Armey is one. They're obviously in different places and whatnot and they have different elements within their group. We also know within the Tea Party movement there are local Tea Party organizations as well. What we want to see is them all saying this is wrong.

I was on television yesterday with a member of the Tea Party movement that simply rejected offhand that there are no people like this participating in their program. I'm sitting there looking at pictures taken of signs referring to the president of the United States as the "N" word. So we still have some work to do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Well, Mark, I'm certainly going to let you get back in there right after a break. Guys, don't go away. We're taking a quick break. We're going to have plenty more to say and talk about right after this. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: We're going to continue our conversation now with Mark Skoda, founder and chairman of the Memphis Tea Party, also Hilary Shelton, director of the NAACP's Washington bureau, again talking about the delegates at the NAACP convention approving a resolution that asked the leaders of the Tea Party movement to repudiate some of the racist elements, quote, unquote, of the Tea Party.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Mark, let me get you, jump back in here on some of the things that Hilary was talking about before the break which are, have leaders like yourself not done enough to repudiate some of those incidents we have seen around the country when it comes to maybe at a Tea Party rally or things -- signs that have the "N" word quite frankly on them. We've seen spitting in the face of a black congressman, things like that. Have guys like yourself not done enough?

SKODA: Let me say this. Some of the allegations relate to the Washington incident. We formed the national Tea Party Federation which is a group of about 80-plus Tea Party leaders around the country plus affiliates. We actually sent a letter to the Congressional Black Caucus offering our videos, asking for theirs so that we could indeed identify who was at fault in the altercations that were alleged.

We received no feedback. We asked for help. We want to do that. The Tea Party leadership is a very reasonable group of people and indeed I would suggest to you that while there are fringe elements in all movements, that the folks that are leading these major organizations who are making a difference by getting the vote out, getting people elected, clearly have stated unequivocally that there is no room for this kind of derogatory speech. Indeed no room for racism.

You know, in my own case, I recruited a woman, Charlotte Bergman (ph) who is an African-American conservative running for District 9 against Steve Cohen (ph). I worked personally on Angela McGlowan (ph) another African- American woman in District 1 in Mississippi. I am heavily involved with Brinkley Heights Urban Academy.

In Memphis, Tennessee we have 60 percent African-American population in the city. It is untenable that I as leader would disenfranchise a relationship with a major part of my city and indeed work heavily with the black church which I founded seven years ago with the Pastor Roscoe Perry (ph), and indeed with Brinkley Heights raised half a million dollars to help underprivileged children in frankly, crack-infested neighborhoods.

We are working very hard as conservatives to ensure that we have smaller government, that we use our own resources and that we create different ideas.

HOLMES: Well ...

SKODA: I regret and have great respect though for the NAACP but I regret that they've decided to take this action, frankly unnecessarily so.

HOLMES: Well, Hilary, you named earlier some of the -- the groups that are a part of, or affiliated with, the Tea Party Movement. I mean can you tell me right now what would be satisfactory? What are the names of the people, the leadership you talk about of the movement, who do you want to come -- come out in front of a microphone and say "we reject all of these racist elements and these racist incidents that have taken place and possibly get you to a point where you would withdraw that resolution?

SHELTON: Well, it would be enough to have those within the Tea Party Movement actually recognize that some of those involved in the fringe element as mentioned before are carryovers from very extremist organizations like the Council of Conservative Citizens, and other groups that I don't believe carry the same concerns as the person I'm speaking to on the other end.

That is, what he's saying is very reasonable. Grassroots, mass movement organizations often have fringes that try to invade what they're trying to do in a very reasonable and systematic and even democratic way. It makes very good sense to raise issues and concerns that may be different for others.

Conservative ideas, conservative issues around taxation, around spending, around those kinds of concerns, that makes good sense. It's not that agenda that we are worried about. It's the signs we're seeing being carried, it's the epithets being utilized. It's the very troubling and inflammatory and racial discriminatory language that's being used.

HOLMES: But again, Hilary, I'm asking specifically what is satisfactory? Because you're sitting next to me here on live TV with one guy who is doing exactly what you are asking a leader to do ...

SHELTON: Yes.

HOLMES: ... which is to repudiate all those fringe elements. So what exactly do you want them to do that would be satisfactory?

SHELTON: What -- whenever it comes up and it will come up again, as you mention, there are those that are going to try to infiltrate everything they're doing to bring an illegitimate agenda to the table and not just the agenda but an illegitimate manner of handling these concerns.

We have seen it happen in the past, we are fearful that it will happen again. And as our resolution calls for they have to be prepared every step along the way to repudiate these extremely problematic factions, messaging and signs that we see happening across the board.

We have to make sure that we don't have those to show up. We have to be concerned with those issues usually from the left side. Those people that would bring signs denigrating some member of Congress or whatever the case might be, they may be extreme right wing.

We shut that down right away and it is our hope that you'll see the importance of doing exactly the same thing. I believe that he does, but I hope the other five faction leaders, as well as all those local organizations will follow suit and do exactly the same thing.

SKODA: Yes ...

HOLMES: Oh go ahead, Mark.

SKODA: Yes, I was hoping one thing I would ask the NAACP to do. And it revolves around the New Black Panther Party. I mean, Malik Shasav (ph) have suggested that crackers and children of police be murdered. I would hope that he is as -- as energetic ...

SHELTON: Absolutely. Absolutely.

SKODA: ... in rejecting such a horrific fringe, in fact bordering on hate speech. And I would hope that you would do that also beyond singling out the Tea Party. I think ...

SHELTON: We absolutely do. SKODA: ... but the -- the hysterical elements here, the hysterical elements on both sides need to be tamped down. There is no room to relive the '60s.

SHELTON: Absolutely.

SKODA: We must immediately move forward and I am grateful that you've given us this forum to have a reasonable dialogue.

SHELTON: And I strongly agree with you about those very inflammatory statements made by members of the new Black Panther Party.

SKODA: Thank you.

SHELTON: There is no place for that kind of vitriolic language in a civilized, democratic society. It has to stop. We have to address the real issues before us and stop being -- stop digressing into these fringes that are unnecessary. We strongly agree with you.

HOLMES: Mark, let me ask you, how damaging is something like this? Now and I want to talk about this resolution. And I say how damaging it is, when you have such a revered organization as the NAACP, a revered civil rights organization that has put something on paper having to do with the Tea Party Movement.

That's -- I mean, no matter what, people are going to listen to the NAACP. What people aren't getting is maybe what you just referenced, a calm conversation like we're having. What are you're seeing in a lot of coverage is again two sides yelling back and forth at each other, unfortunately.

So how much does it hurt just the Tea Party Movement itself, which quite frankly has been known as a conservative and sometimes, yes, even racist movement in some of the coverage? How much does it hurt to have a group like the NAACP come out and do something like this when you know most people aren't going to see this reasoned conversation?

SKODA: Well, I think it's -- it's regrettably I think at the end of the day, it begins to marginalize some of the good work the NAACP does. I think people who are part of this movement know who they are, know where their heart is.

And I think if nothing else and certainly as I've talk to some of my members and received e-mails -- there is a great energy afoot to repudiate first of all this position, and secondly, to get the vote out and change the makeup of Congress. We're focused on the 2010 elections.

And again, I have great respect for the NAACP. I live in a city where race issue -- where we have Martin Luther King assassinated and we live with that every single day. And I recognize the absolute wrongness of this issue on the psyche of African-Americans.

And so there is no place for this. And regrettably I think we would try to find more common ground together than to find divisive language in such a resolution.

So I -- I frankly don't believe this will have a major impact on the Tea Party Movement. In fact, I would suggest that it may in fact animate further behavior to get the vote out, show up at the polls and to be more active.

HOLMES: And what about the effect on the NAACP, Hilary? I guess you could see it a couple of different ways. Some are saying this is exactly what the NAACP should be doing, keeping people in check.

On the other hand, some people might agree with -- with Mark here in that, you know, it takes away from some of the other good work that the NAACP is doing.

SHELTON: Well, it is our hope that people see this as exactly what it is. That as we are seeing the problems on the horizon, as much as we've seen very -- very well-disciplined members of the Tea Party as the person I'm talking to right now raising issues in a very relax kind of way, a very respectful way, we still have challenges.

People responded to what they've seen happening. They responded to what they've seen with the very racist type signage, with the very racist and inflammatory language being utilized. And very well, what we've equipped them with, in that resolution are tools to assess what's going on.

We made sure that we didn't paint the entire Tea Party with one broad brush, but raised the issues of those elements within. It is our hope in raising these issues that we will begin to see a greater set of discipline being utilized by the Tea Party to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again.

I'm hearing that kind of commitment from our other person from the Tea Party in Memphis and it is our hope we can see that in all the other factions of the Tea Party as well. And I guess as the future moves on we'll probably find some issues I hope in the future we can agree on and work together to implement.

HOLMES: Finish it up for me Mark. I know you want to get in there.

SKODA: Hilary, if I may just say. Hilary, I would offer to -- I would be happy to broker a meeting with a number of our leaders to meet with the NAACP.

So far we've been talking at each other and not speaking with each other. And I would encourage us to do that if you so see it as helpful. I think we need to have a good open dialogue and I would encourage you to accept an invitation to have me bring a number of leaders from around the country to meet with the NAACP and to discuss this in very good detail.

SHELTON: We will look forward to making that meeting happen. It sounds like just the kind of thing that needs to come out of a resolution like this passing. HOLMES: All right, guys you both guys on the record and I got both of your phone numbers as well. Hilary Shelton, Mark Skoda, again, both of you gentlemen, I'm glad I could have you both on because I know you both, I've spent time with both of you.

And no matter what anybody out there watching might think of these issues, you all I know are two reasonable and decent guys who could have this conversation. And I appreciate and I hope people got something out of it and we look forward that you -- the two groups working together down the road.

It's good to see both of you guys.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: All right. Lebron James, do you remember that this week? And it's been a long week and a lot of racial back and forth this week. But Lebron James didn't have much to say after Dan Gilbert, the owner of the Cavaliers wrote that scathing letter.

Well, the Reverend Jesse Jackson had a whole lot to say. He didn't mince words. That set off another racial back and forth this week, just one of several episodes that we are going to be getting into here in just 20 minutes at top of the hour.

We're going take a special half-hour to talk about some of the incidents we saw this week and what we learned possibly about ourselves.

And I can report as well that Mark Skoda and Hilary Shelton that you saw, those two men that I had the conversation with. I did follow up with them after that conversation and in fact we are all in touch. And the two men are in contact about possibly sometime this summer, maybe next month, setting up a meeting between Tea Party Movement leaders and also the NAACP.

We shall see.

Well, the Open off to a windy start at St. Andrew's. The old golf course, much more at stake though than just a "W" in the win column for one golfer. Straight ahead, we're speaking to our guy, Rick Horrow, who is at St. Andrew's for all the latest.

He's coming up in just a moment. Its 40 minutes past the hour. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: I didn't know we had that in our playlist. I like that song.

Well, he hasn't won a golf tournament since that tree-crashing incident last November. In fact, he hasn't won a Major in more than two years. And that has critics of Tiger Woods questioning his ability to be great once again. He got off to a pretty good start though at the British Open which is under way right now. This is on Thursday though. He got off to a good start, faded a bit. He's a bit off the lead right now. But he's in the pack. The question this morning is just how important is it for Woods' image for him to win again?

Also this morning: the passing of Yankee owner George Steinbrenner. He purchased a suffering baseball franchise and returned it to glory.

And with us this morning to talk about Woods, to talk about Steinbrenner, our business/sports analyst, Rick Horrow, who is there at the British Open; he's in Scotland for us.

Let me -- let me ask you just about the weather. First of all, this place has been known to cause fits to a lot of these golfers with the wind and the rain. First day we saw some low scores because of the rain and the wind wasn't there. So is it now playing a factor again?

RICK HORROW, CNN SPORTS BUSINESS ANALYST: My man, it depends on your perspective.

HOLMES: Yes.

HORROW: We would call the weather ridiculous. Here they call it variable.

All right, so it starts really cold and windy and then it's calmer and then it's windy. I've played here a couple of days. I've lost 748 balls. I'm standing in the gorge here with the course behind me and I'm looking for all the balls that I lost over the past ten years here. I found some. I'm going to find more. How's that?

HOLMES: I'm sure you will, Rick. But someone right now who can't afford to be losing golf balls around that course is Tiger Woods, of course. No matter what, still he is the biggest story it seems at every golf tournament. He loves this course, calls it his favorite.

He's in the pack right now but how much does he have on the line besides just a tournament win? A lot of people are looking here to see how he's going to do down the road.

HORROW: Eight strokes back from the leader Louis Oosthuizen. His bottom line is that he's got to play very well. He had a press conference we attended beginning of the week, said that he is trying to be a better person.

Well, he changed putters to a new Nike putter and he needs to be a better putter regardless of whether he is a better person. He's got $50 million of endorsements now. That's good news. Bad news, last year he had $100 million and there are a lot of companies like the Nikes and EA Sports who are depending on him doing well.

The economy here, $80 million or so of impact around St. Andrew's from this tournament. A lot of it is the hoopla caused by the Tiger Woods; the good, the bad and the ugly.

HOLMES: And you know, we have to remember he's only been back for a couple of tournaments. And again, it was just in November when this whole scandal broke so a lot has happened since.

We talked, it seemed like inevitable he was going to beat Jack Nicklaus' record of 18 majors. He's got 14 now. He's got some time though, doesn't he?

HORROW: Well, he's always got some time but the bottom line was people thought it was a slam dunk a few years ago.

Now, you know, winning a major is not an automatic. It is not easy. But his favorite courses, Pebble Beach, didn't do really well. Masters, he did ok but he just came back. This is a course remember he won in 2005 and 2000. 2000 lapped the field, didn't hit one of these little bunkers here. I know that if you hit one of those bunkers it is death.

So if he wins, he's going to win by coming from behind which he's never been very good at.

HOLMES: And also if he wins, people talked about this during the whole sex scandal, that you know what? People remember winning and they like winners and once he starts winning again, all of this will be behind him for the most part.

Is that the feeling that if he can win a major, this major in particular, that you know what, the perception about him is going to change?

HORROW: Yes, but we've said that, T.J., remember at Pebble Beach last time. We said it at the PGA championship. A lot of people who respect Tiger Woods' golf ability but less people like him. The Bloomberg Power 100, he is clearly number one. Lebron is number two. There are a lot of people who don't like Lebron. Phil Mickelson number three, not playing very well here. So yes, winning cures all ills but he's got to win soon.

HOLMES: All right. Last thing here, let's turn now to the passing of the Yankee owner George Steinbrenner. Just how big of a giant was he in the game of baseball? We know what he did for the Yankees but what did he do for baseball?

HORROW: Well, he may have revolutionized baseball in the context of his vision. Remember, the Yankees were bought for about $7 million when he bought that team. Now they're worth about $1.6 billion, a new stadium, the Yes Network. He increased the value of that franchise nearly 20,000 percent.

It's also been really good for baseball because of the Yankees brand and what he did. A lot of people in small markets say he spent too much. But most people net-net would say he is tremendously good and was tremendously good for the game. He will be sorely missed.

HOLMES: All right, our Rick Horrow there for the British Open. Rick, we appreciate you hopping on live for us. You enjoy the rest of your time and behave. All right?

HORROW: I'm going to go back and look for golf balls. I'll bring them to you next week.

HOLMES: All right. We'll see you buddy. Thanks so much.

Well, coming up here, the video went viral. Then a filmmaker decided to put the story into a movie. We'll show you what happens when art imitates life.

Also, racism in America: nobody suggested for a second because the country elected its first black president that racism was going to go away, but we didn't expect the week like we just had. NAACP versus Tea Party activists; can't we all just get along?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Ten minutes until the top of the hour here now.

Two senate candidates, both of them have military background. One is an unknown and a political newcomer. The other is a senate veteran who ran for president.

Our deputy political director Paul Steinhauser joins us now from D.C. Hey there. Hello to you this morning.

And you know this is just -- we love this story, don't we, Paul?

PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. Let's talk about it.

HOLMES: I just love this story. All right. Alvin Greene, out of South Carolina, Alvin will speak.

STEINHAUSER: Yes. Tomorrow T.J., tomorrow he's going to speak at the local chapter in Manning, South Carolina -- that's where grew up -- for the NAACP. He told our Kevin Bohn, one of our senior political producers, that he would talk about jobs, education and justice which he says are the core issues of his campaign. But campaign -- what campaign?

Remember, this is the guy, who last month back in June won the South Carolina Democratic senate primary basically which is basically overshadowed by a lot of other things, the media and voters even really didn't pay any attention. He didn't run any commercials, he didn't campaign, doesn't have a job, yet he won the nomination.

Here he goes tomorrow, his first real event. Remember though he still faces charges of showing pornographic messages to a college student. He has a lawyer dealing with that.

And T.J. he's considered a very big long shot, very -- against Jim DeMint, the incumbent Republican Senator in South Carolina.

HOLMES: What do we expect him to say when we get to ask him questions? How is this thing going to go Paul?

STEINHAUSER: I wish I had more details, if he's going to take questions or not. We are sending our Jessica Yellin though, our national political correspondent down to south Carolina. So hopefully if there are no questions at the event, she'll get some in and she'll have plenty to report on tomorrow afternoon.

HOLMES: Ok. Such a fascinating story about how all this happened; so many questions out there. Maybe we'll get answers from him tomorrow.

The other senator I was referring to, Senator John McCain. Now he comes out, he speaks often but he was facing off with some of his opponents last night. How did his opponents come out after facing off with this -- it is fair to say -- political heavyweight.

STEINHAUSER: Yes, John McCain going for his fifth term in the senate but he's facing primary challenges from the right.

And last night was the debate -- first debate among the three Republicans running for the senate out there in Arizona. It was a rough, tough debate. I got to say that. I watched some it this morning when I got in. It was a lot of back and forth between the candidates kind of hitting each other on the issues, including of course illegal immigration.

McCain facing a fifth term here, fighting for fifth term, facing off against J.D. Hayworth, who is a former congress and former radio talk show host and a guy called Jim Deacon, who's a Tea Party activist.

T.J. they've got two more debates. The primary is later next month.

HOLMES: Ok. And he's not running against President Obama. I don't believe, right. So why is he putting out attack ads against Obama?

STEINHAUSER: Yes, it's 2008, right?

HOLMES: Yes.

STEINHAUSER: Take a listen to this ad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're sheriffs in Arizona. President Obama has made protecting our border incredibly difficult but Arizona has a senator with the courage and character to stand up to a president who is wrong. John McCain. A president versus a senator; doesn't seem like a fair fight unless that senator is John McCain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Character matters.

(END VIDEO CLIP) STEINHAUSER: Look at that T.J. I guess he's not even looking ahead to the primary or the general election. He's looking to Barack Obama. Is this a rematch of 2008? No, but you know what? Illegal immigration is the big issue out there, T.J.

HOLMES: Yes. Some serious guys in that commercial there, Paul.

STEINHAUSER: They're sheriffs.

HOLMES: Paul, good to see you as always. Thanks so much. We'll check in with you again.

A lot of people out there might remember the controversy last February when a white sorority entered a black college step show competition and won.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(YOUTUBE VIDEO)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now this video went viral and then comes a, quote, "scoring error". And that led the organizers to call the competition now a tie between the white sorority and a black sorority.

The incident became part of a college coming of age movie called "Stepsisters". The producer initially found it difficult to even cast white actresses for his movie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALONZO ANDERSON, PRODUCER/WRITER, "STEPSISTERS": I cast some actresses, and some white actresses, and they actually chose not to do the project because in some scenes they would have to kiss a black actor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: The producer and cast talk about turning life into art. That is later this morning. "Stepsisters" the movie, again, later this morning on CNN SATURDAY MORNING, 10:00 Eastern.

Quick break here. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spell the bigots and racists in your ranks or take full responsibility for all of their actions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have discouraged and do denounce anyone who brings those types of signs to any of our rallies. This is not what we're about. MARK WILLIAMS, TEA PARTY ORGANIZER: The NAACP is a bunch of old dusty relics trying to be relevant in the 21st century. They make money off of race-baiting.

REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: There clearly are some racial leaves in their teabag, but this is not just about race.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no room for this kind of derogatory speech. Indeed no room for racism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Good morning to you all. Top of the hour here now on this CNN SATURDAY MORNING. I'm T.J. Holmes. As we do here every Saturday, we are taking this 9:00 a.m. half-hour to dig a little deeper on one topic that's been in the news this week and that affects you. And this affects us all.

Today our topic, the racial back-and-forth that was triggered by an NAACP resolution that condemned leaders of a tea party movement for not repudiating "racist elements within the movement." The tea party leader reciprocated by writing then a satirical letter that among other things called for the repeal of the 13th and 14th amendments.

But it wasn't just that. This week. Also this week, the Reverend Jesse Jackson likened the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers to a slave master who treated Lebron James like "a runaway slave."

Also this week, Rush Limbaugh, of course, the conservative radio talk show host. He called the late owner of the New York Yankees, George Steinbrenner, called him a cracker who made a lot of African- Americans millionaires. He was then immediately rebuked by Al Sharpton.

Also in Ohio, a state Democratic House staffer sent out a flyer with a cartoon depicting a tea party member wearing a Ku Klux Klan robe. This half-hour, a conversation with Columbia University professor Marc Hill and Luke Visconti, CEO of Diversity Incorporated and also author of a blog that's called "Ask a White Guy."

We're going to get to both of them in just a moment to talk about what we've seeing this week and what we have learned possibly about ourselves this week.

Meanwhile, many viewed the election of this country's first black president as a huge step forward that would improve race relations in the country. But now there is a question of just how far we've come.

Carol Costello kicks off our discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On "LARRY KING LIVE," a discussion turned bad about the NAACP's accusation that tea party movement tolerates racist elements.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's not engage in defamation and libel.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me, I'm talking so shut your mouth.

COSTELLO: It was a meltdown, just like an earlier discussion on Wolf Blitzer's show. CNN contributor Roland Martin on one side, tea party express spokesperson Mark Williams on the other.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You should come out and say you're not welcome here and ...

MARK WILLIAMS, TEA PARTY EXPRESS SPOKESPERSON: Racists have their own movement. It is called the NAACP.

MARTIN: Oh, that's nonsense.

COSTELLO: Observers say it is the same racial stalemate America's been stuck in for years. Still, not so long ago Americans were kind of hopeful. On the day before President Obama's inauguration, a "Washington Post" poll showed nearly six in 10 Americans said his presidency would advance cross-racial ties. But by January 2010, only about four in 10 believe that.

WILLIAM JELANI COBB, AUTHOR: Any time that we've seen racial progress in the United States we've also seen racial backlash.

COSTELLO: William Jelani Cobb who wrote the "The Substance of Hope Barack Obama the Paradox of Progress" says even President Obama doesn't believe his election will bring about racial harmony. He said so himself.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have never been so naive as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidate, particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

COSTELLO: The president said that in a major speech about race in America in March of 2008. The only other time he broached the race issue in a substantive way was in July of 2009 during the now- infamous, and some say disastrous beer summit. Observers say don't expect the president to play peacemaker this time around.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: The tea party is the number one enemy of the Obama administration, and the NAACP is a very strong behind President Obama but you will not see our president trying to somehow use this moment that's going on right now in a healing way. He's going to ignore it and stay above the fray.

COSTELLO: It brings us back to our question -- have we taken a few steps back when it comes to race relations? (INAUDIBLE) we have and as for whether the election of America's first black president will have a lasting positive influence on race relations ...

COBB: We won't really know what the real significance of this is for many years to come. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: So we want to get into all of this with two gentlemen this morning. One Columbia University Professor Mark Lamont Hill, he's joining us this morning. And also Luke Visconti, CEO and co-founder of Diversity Incorporated. Gentlemen, thank you both for being here. But first I want to get your reaction to that letter, that letter to Abe Lincoln that was written by tea party spokesman Mark Williams who was pretending to be Ben Jealous.

So he called this a satirical letter, pretending to be Ben Jealous writing to Abraham Lincoln. I'm just reading a part of it here that says "Dear Mr. Lincoln we colored people have taken a vote and decided that we don't cotton to the whole emancipation thing. Freedom means having to work for real, think for ourselves and take consequences along with the rewards. That is just far too much of us to ask of us colored people and we demand it stop."

Marc, let me start with you. On this letter, should we dismiss this as one guy going off the deep end and making a mistake in something he wrote, or should we look at this a little deeper and think about what he might think is also what a lot of people might be thinking?

PROF. MARC HILL, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well, we should look at it as one isolated incident. The problem is we have a series of incidents that were marked as isolated. Now we begin to see a pattern, both within and outside of the tea party. We see a large range of people who have a deep animus toward the president and also toward African- American people.

There are all these narratives about black laziness, about black angst, about black anger, about black being all undeserving and all of these conversations are emerging at a moment when we need more racial togetherness and instead are prompting more racial division. That's a dangerous moment to be in.

HOLMES: Well, Luke, let me have your reaction too to the letter you saw from Mark Williams.

LUKE VISCONTI, DIVERSITY CONSULTANT: I think it is unpatriotic. If you look up on the web, do a web search for tea party bumper stickers. You'll see a whole list of things that are just really objectionable. And I think we have to look at this in context.

By 2043, white people will be less than 50 percent of our population. If we can't get this together now, and this is a critical juncture, we're really shortchanging the future of our country. I think tea party people are unpatriotic, short sighted and selfish. It is a pattern here.

HOLMES: It sounds like you're labeling? Now is it fair to do, Luke? Is it fair to label? It sounds like you're just talking about the tea party as a whole, almost. The tea party is a movement. So many different factions are a part of it. But you would go so far as labeling the entire movement as what you're saying, a bit racist? VISCONTI: Hey, look. I mean you got to look at it. If it's furry and it has a tail and pointy ears and it meows, it's probably a cat. You know? So you look at this, I wouldn't want to stand next to any of those signs. I wouldn't want to be associated with any of that language. If you are associated with it, it says something about you.

HOLMES: But Mark, we see these and we call these incidents, Mark. Of course, not everyone in the tea party movement, I don't think anyone in the NAACP or otherwise has suggested these are all bad people, but it seems like there may be some elements that, you know, that draw the attention of the camera. Has the tea party movement in some ways even gotten a bad rap because some of those extremist elements, those racist elements as the NAACP would say, end up drowning out some of the calmer voices?

HILL: Well, that's what they would say. They would say they are the victims of the liberal media bias that takes the three or four crazies in the tea party movement and dangles them in front of the camera. But we know that that's simply not true. I've been to many tea party rallies where I fear language like "lynch the president," "beat up the president," "shoot the president."

Well, you hear the narratives and the conversations that are going at those tea party rallies, it's not one or two people. There is a tone and tenor there. I do not believe that most people in the tea party are racist. I don't believe that at all.

But when you have a large faction and you have a racist wing of your movement, you need to say something about it. You need to reject and outcast them. If you do not do that, you run the risk and you deserve to be labeled as an organization that doesn't mind having racists in it. That makes the organization racist.

HOLMES: Well, guys, I talked to Mark Scoda, and he's the head of the tea party in Memphis. I've been around this guy. Spent some time with him. And I don't think anyone after meeting him would come to the conclusion that this guy was a racist in any way, shape or form.

So how are they supposed to -- which some give them credit for, the tea party movement being now a player in politics in this country that is going to be around. Whose responsibility is it now to step up? How do you separate, Luke, some of those racist elements as the NAACP would say? How do you separate them from the good folks like Mark Scoda?

VISCONTI: Well, look, the iron pilings know which way to point when the magnet makes itself, you know, apparent. I think you are looking at a group of people who are cultivating power and cultivating an audience with a direct message. And the message isn't very savory as far as I'm concerned. These are people leveraging racism.

And if you look at the crowds, you look on Youtube, the people against government health care, most of them are on social security and Medicare, if you look at the crowds. I guess they're not in favor of health care for certain people. I think this is what you have to focus on. They didn't get to power with any message of any kind other than being anti-Obama and being anti-black Obama.

Let's be honest about this. I mean you can't go to any of these rallies and not see the negative signs. What's that tell you about the organization?

HOLMES: Aren't there though -- I know there are because we talk to them. There are African-American members of the tea party.

VISCONTI: Well, sure.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: There are African-American members of the tea party.

VISCONTI: There were Jewish concentration guard camps. Weren't there? I mean, there are camps.

HOLMES: I don't want to make that connection there, Luke. We don't want to make that far.

VISCONTI: Why not?

HOLMES: Well, guys, I want you to stand by. They want me to get a break in. Marc, hold on to that point you're making right there, Marc. I'm coming back to both of you guys. It's 10 past the hour. We're going to continue our conversation, right after the break.

Of course we are talking about this tea party-NAACP back and forth this week, but something else. Several incidents happening this week, including from a guy who's known sometimes as saying some things controversial, Rush Limbaugh.

How far did he go this time when he was talking about a cracker who made African-Americans millionaires. We'll explain right after the break. The conversation continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Returning to our conversation here in just a moment, but another one of the incidents we saw this week that kind of rubbed people the wrong way, ultra conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh, he often has made a statement or two that has turned some people off. But he made a comment this week, the same day Yankees owner George Steinbrenner died that really rubbed people the wrong way. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOICE OF RUSH LIMBAUGH, CONSERVATIVE RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: George Steinbrenner has passed away at age 80. That cracker made a lot of African-American millionaires. George Steinbrenner, the classic capitalist. Everybody around him became wealthy. Like most successful capitalists, he made the people around him wealthy. And a lot of African-American millionaires along the way, and at the same time he fired a bunch of white guys as managers left and right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Reverend Al Sharpton fired back with this statement. "The statements made by Rush Limbaugh about George Steinbrenner were repugnant and offensive. The fact that he could make these comments less than 24 hours after Mr. Steinbrenner's death makes it even more offensive.

For the last 20 years I have known George Steinbrenner and we have quarreled over diversity and community programs but I always found him fair, direct and genuinely prone to do what he felt was right. Mr. Limbaugh and his broadcasters owe his family an apology."

All right. Let's get back into this now. Joining us once again, Columbia University Professor Marc Lamont Hill and Luke Visconti, CEO and co-founder of Diversity Incorporated. Guys, to you Marc, was this Limbaugh just being Limbaugh and we're used to this and move on from it or should we stop and pay attention here as well?

HILL: Well, it's both. On the one hand, clearly, Rush Limbaugh just hadn't been in the headlines for a week or two and needed some attention. But the timing of it is shameful. To do this a day after George Steinbrenner passes away is completely unacceptable.

But the deeper implication here is reflective of something that we've seen as a problem in America for a long time. The implication here is somehow that we should be grateful to George Steinbrenner and that through unchecked capitalism, he has created this opportunity to African-American people that they should be thankful for and then otherwise we wouldn't be there.

The reality is if George Steinbrenner is capable of making African-American millionaires, then that means he is making a lot more money here. The relationship between athletes and players, between athletes and owners is one where the owners have the chips stacked in their favor completely. And so we shouldn't have any sense of overwhelming gratitude to George Steinbrenner for allowing an opportunity for him to make billions as African-American players make millions.

I'm not mad at George Steinbrenner but let's not act as if any complaint about racism in America can somehow be mitigated by the fact that George Steinbrenner creates black millionaires while he's making billions.

HOLMES: And Luke on this issue and we talked about it already, the NAACP, and the tea party movement, the back and forth between those two and also (INAUDIBLE) will get into it in a second but Jesse Jackson made about Dan Gilbert, the head of the Cleveland Cavaliers. Luke, did we learn anything about ourselves this week that we didn't already know?

VISCONTI: I think it draws into a little bit more clarity the point around which you can make money off of race-baiting. I think Rush Limbaugh is an expert at that. He's an expert at setting up his audience to believe the worst about people, to go, "oh, yes, that's right," and it's a continuation of American history, the know nothings Father Coughlin in the 1930s. This is just a person making money off of race-baiting.

I think that what he pointed out was that we a long way to go in our country. But I will say this about George Steinbrenner. He made a lot of people a lot of money and most of them were white. I don't think -- what difference does that make? He just was a good businessman. I'm sorry he's dead.

HOLMES: Marc, on the issue of race-baiting, who needs to step up and stop falling for it? Because we often heard from the "leaders," and that back and forth gets so many people stirred up and you see all the Vitriol we saw on TV this week. So whose responsibility is it to step up and realize what is being done to us and not fall for it?

HILL: Well, there's two things. The first thing is black leadership, whether this leader of the NAACP or local civic organizations, whether our politicians, we have to not respond to every single incident that comes up. If a Hallmark card might be perceived as racist, we don't need to jump at that every single time because it divides our interests up too much.

The other thing here is we have to understand that many of the moves that the right makes that are racist are done for our reaction. They understand that when we react with outrage it only galvanizes the racist base of the right. and so in many ways, we need to I'd much rather have, for example, an NAACP continuing to focus on job creation and workers rights and the things that they are doing than to necessarily make a resolution against the tea party even though the resolution is right.

HOLMES: All right. Luke, I'm coming back to you when we come out of this commercial break. We're going to continue the conversation with these two gentlemen and we're going to move on to the other topic we saw this week that turned some heads, what Jesse Jackson said about the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers. That's next. Stay with us. It's 18 minutes past the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Returning to our conversation. One more incident we saw this week in a racially charged week was the incident in which the Reverend Jesse Jackson had some things to say about the Cleveland Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert after Lebron James left the team.

Now, Reverend Jackson said of the owner, "he speaks as an owner of Lebron and not the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers. His feelings of betrayal personify a slave-master mentality. He sees Lebron as a runaway slave." The Reverend Jesse Jackson making those comments after a scathing letter that the owner of the Cavaliers put out after Lebron James decided to move and go to Miami.

We return to my conversation now with Columbia University Professor Mar Lamont Hill and Luke Visconti, CEO of Diversity Incorporated. Like, let me bring you in on this. And it seems like across the board in the coverage after Jesse Jackson made this statement. You heard white reporters and white talk radio saying, what in the world is he talking about? There is no way he can equate this millionaire, Lebron James, to any kind of a runaway slave.

On the other side, I've had conversation and heard black people say, "OK, well, yes, I can see what Jesse was saying." How did you take it, the comments you heard from Jesse Jackson?

VISCONTI: I served for five years on Reverend Jackson's steering committee, the Wall Street project. I've heard him speak in very small settings. And what I love about him is he frames things in a way that makes you think, think a little bit harder into a situation. I think his comments were very well put. You have an owner who said something, wrote something, so incendiary, so wrong that he had to pull it off of his web site.

And I think that what Reverend Jackson did was make us all think about the relationship between people who own teams and their players and what's good for the players. Lebron has a limited career as an athlete. Your body ages. You can't go on forever. He's got to make a decision that's good with him. He is a free agent. There was talk when he was negotiating about not a lot of people, different players to talk together. It was really ...

HOLMES: Now Luke ...

VISCONTI: I think Reverend Jackson summed it up.

HOLMES: Luke, it sounds like you're getting into certainly a sports issue. People have questions about how the free agency thing works and the owners and too much power given to the owners or the players. That's one thing. But a lot of people said, "how in the world could you go this far?" It sounds like you found this to be a credible analogy but a lot of people certainly heard this a lot differently. How in the world can you equate these two things?

VISCONTI: I think you can. He's making an analogy. He is not saying that the man is a slave owner. He's making an analogy. If you think about what that analogy is, people who were slave owners enslaved people and counted them as their property.

And as their property whatever work they did was their work, the slave owner. So this was the same kind of thing that you saw with the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I think that Reverend Jackson summed it up accurately.

HOLMES: Well, Marc, I will let you wrap this up for us here. But maybe an analogy, maybe there was another analogy to use. But when you use the words "slave master" and "runaway slave," you know what that's going to set off and I know you saw it as well, it set off a black- white divide and a black-white back-and-forth. Where did that comment get us?

HILL: I'm not sure. I happen to agree with the example. I happen to agree with the metaphor. It is important to note that Reverend Jackson didn't say that Lebron was a slave. He said that Dan Gilbert has a slave owner mentality which is about his sense of entitlement. It's about exploitation. It has nothing to do with disrespecting the very real pain and trauma these slaves actually went through. But what that conversation does to however sometimes is to divide us unnecessarily. But that's not a problem with Reverend Jackson, that's a problem with America's racial immaturity. We are so unwilling to address the past and we're so unwilling to address institutional racism and white supremacy, that anything that conjures up images of unchecked white power causes people to run away and instead of discussing exploitation of black players we are discussing Reverend Jackson, which is unfair to Reverend Jackson.

HOLMES: Well, why can't we grow up and take about our immaturity? How can we grow up and take that moment, that conversation and that comment and move forward from it? How are we going to grow up? You talk about our immaturity.

HILL: We have to come to terms with the ways in which we are empowered in unfair ways. That means white people have to come to the terms with the way white-skinned privilege benefits them on a day to day basis, whether they like it or not, whether they are liberal, conservative.

But the fact of the matter is being white still has institutional power. Just like men have to come to terms with that, just like straight people have to come to terms with that. White people have to come to terms with that and until they're mature enough to address those instances of unchecked power and unmerited power, then we're always going to run the race and keep trying to be post-racial instead of post-racist.

HOLMES: Post-racist. All right. Marc Lamont Hill, Luke Visconti, gentlemen, I wanted to have you both on, to have a conversation about what we saw this week. A calm, reasoned conversation and I'm glad you made some of the points you made there at the end, Marc. We all need to grow up a little bit. A little racial immaturity in this country still. But like you say, always progress sometimes comes with a little pain. And we might be going through some of those growing pains right now.

Gentlemen, good to see you both. You all enjoy the rest of your weekend. Thanks so much.

HILL: Pleasure.

HOLMES: Well, stay with us. 27 minutes past the hour. I'm going to give you a quick update about the gulf oil disaster. That is coming up right after the break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Just want to let you know something we're just getting in about the BP oil disaster. The pressure they say still building inside the gulf oil well, though they say the rate is slowing. This is important. These integrity tests going on, expected to go now beyond the 48-hour deadline which would have been this afternoon so they are going to continue with the testing past that 48-hour deadline trying to see if this thing is leaking anywhere after getting that cap on top. The company doesn't think there are any leaks but the tests will continue. We'll have much more on that at the top of the hour when we bring you more live news.

Right now, want to hand it over to "YOUR BOTTOM LINE."