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CNN Saturday Morning News

Iraq After the War; Home from the War

Aired August 21, 2010 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN, ANCHOR: Well, from the fall of Saddam Hussein in the spring of 2003 to the withdrawal this week of American combat troops. What is next for Iraq? One of the lessons we've learned? Maybe some mistakes we've made in Iraq.

And what's next for the American combat troops who are left in country? No longer called combat troops. They're there to assist and advise. That's the new name for them.

A lot of questions here. So here to talk about it is retired Army general and former assistant secretary of state, Mark Kimmitt.

General, good to have you with us, as always.

Let me start by asking, were you bothered at all, how did you respond to the coverage you saw this week of the last, "combat brigade" being pulled out and did you have a concern that maybe the American public was going to see that and maybe take it the wrong way?

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY (RET.): No, I think the American public recognizes that this is only a milestone. The mission still goes on. There will still be fighting going on in Iraq. American troops are still in danger over there. But it was still good to celebrate this momentous occasion, this momentous milestone of the last combat troops leaving.

HOLMES: And I guess, maybe you can help us there with some perspective. I had so many of these conversations behind the scenes. People scratching their heads, what was the momentous occasion, what was the history here in that we pulled out a brigade that we called a combat brigade but we leave behind several combat brigades but just changed their name?

KIMMITT: Well, again, it is an important event. The last American combat forces coming out. We had been doing this transition to the Iraqi security forces for a number of years. As recently as four years ago the Iraqi security forces were not very, very strong. But the milestone that occurred this week was that the entire combat mission, except for some select counter terrorism missions, was handed over to the Iraqi security forces. Americans will no longer be responsible for conducting combat operations.

HOLMES: What changed? I know technically and the things you explained there, that is a real change. What change for day-to-day life for Iraqis this week? Anything? KIMMITT: Well, primarily it will be the absence of visible American presence going up and down the road. That has always been, especially in the large cities, a significant distraction. The convoys, the presence of American troops up and down the streets. For many Iraqis that was a comforting sight. But I think all of us would recognize after a while the presence of foreign troops, the visible presence of foreign troops is not in the long run helpful.

So there will a smaller American presence, a less visible American presence, but a very important American presence, nonetheless.

HOLMES: What kind of Iraq are we leaving behind right now?

KIMMITT: The Iraq that I look forward to in the future is one that is free. It is independent. It has a representative government that represents all the different sects inside of Iraq. It is a friend to its neighbors and it is no longer a threat to the United States or its interests.

HOLMES: Now, General Kimmitt, you said that's the one you're looking forward to in its future. But what is the one we are leaving behind right now?

KIMMITT: Well, first, we're not leaving anything behind. The last American combat force leaving does not mean we're leaving something behind.

HOLMES: Absolutely. A good distinction to make.

KIMMITT: We have a very strong team there and a new team going in, General Austin will be taking over General Odierno, Ambassador Jeffrey will be taking over for Ambassador Hill. So there will be a continuity of support, it will just be a different type of support. Primarily civilian led now with reduced American presence but nonetheless, a strong American presence for years to come.

HOLMES: Were expectations, some would say, were they so high, were they too high in that many Iraqis expected life to change in more but dramatic way or them? And certainly it remains change in a dramatic way. But a lot of people would say for the worse. I found one quote from an Iraqi who actually said freedom got me a beer and a Coke. Essentially saying, yes, I have the right to do some of this stuff now but my day-to-day life isn't that much better. Have we met the expectations for the Iraqis? Were they too high?

KIMMITT: They absolutely were too high on the part of the Iraqis. They cannot understand and still can't understand how America can bring thousands and thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of troops into the country, depose Saddam, and then three, four, five, seven years later still have problem getting electricity. That is a problem with expectations. But the reality is the average Iraqi has a much better current situation and much, much more promising future than they ever would have had under Saddam.

HOLMES: All right. And one last thing here. You said the expectations maybe were too high. Did we set them too high for the Iraqis? Did we give them those high expectations?

KIMMITT: Look, America throughout the world is known of the land of liberty, freedom, and has tremendous power. Anytime that we go into a country, we need to recognize that people expect a lot from Americans. And sometimes we come up short ourselves. We deal with reality. They deal with expectations.

At the end of the day though, America still remains the beacon of democracy and liberty for the world. And for that, the Iraqis should be proud because they now have that.

HOLMES: General Kimmitt, always good to have you with us, sir, on this Saturday morning. We appreciate you being here. You enjoy the rest of your Saturday.

KIMMITT: Thanks, T.J..

HOLMES: All right. Of course, the combat mission in Iraq is drawing to a close, can't forget the heroes who have lost their lives there. As of Wednesday, 4,406 U.S. service members have died in the Iraq war. Each one of them a face, a name, a family, a story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good-bye, Saddam!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: That was then. But what's it like now? That was a celebratory day for a lot of Iraqis to see that statue fall back in 2003. But how is life there now? Joining me in this discussion about the drawdown of U.S. combat troops in Iraq, three journalists who have spent an extensive amount of time there covering the story as well, CNN international correspondent Arwa Damon, joining us again live from Baghdad, our Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence, live with us in Washington, and deputy international editor for "Time" magazine, Bobby () in New York. Bobby, good to see you once again. And thank you all for being here.

Arwa, let me start with you. I think you were able to hear my interview with General Kimmitt just a moment ago. And oftentimes, we hear how things are so much better now for the Iraqis. Do you get a sense that Iraqi day-to-day life, they're so much better off today than they were under Saddam Hussein?

ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, T.J., it's really a very complicated question that doesn't necessarily have this definite yes or no answer to it. Look, no one is going to argue that under Saddam life was incredibly difficult. He was a dictator.

Iraq back then was shrouded in a cloud of mystery. People were afraid to openly voice their opinions because they never knew if the person they were talking to was perhaps an informant for the regime and they would just disappear in the middle of the night. But what Iraqis will tell you under Saddam, at least, there were rules. You knew what to do to stay out of trouble.

Then came the U.S.-led invasion. Jubilation, excitement for many people. And then the sectarian warfare broke out. Al Qaeda ended up controlling huge chunks of this country. And life disintegrated. So many Iraqis were killed in that period. They refer to it in the dark years, 2005, 2007, 2008. This was a time when you didn't know what to do or not to do to protect yourself.

People couldn't protect their families. People could barely leave their homes without being paralyzed by that fear and anxiety that they might not be coming back. Every single good-bye with a loved one, with a friend was done knowing that that might be the last one. Sure, the situation is better now when we compare it to those years but for most Iraqis, it is nowhere near being good enough.

HOLMES: Chris, would you agree with a lot of that as well? And it's a tough comparison even to try to make, under Saddam Hussein or now, but it sounds like there are different challenges but the expectations were so high that things would be so much better.

LAWRENCE: Yes, I got to tell you, T.J. - I mean, I'll tell you a story I heard back when I was there during the - right after the invasion, back in 2003. We met a guy who was telling us a story of how he was at one of the soccer matches. And one of Uday, Saddam's sons, sent a man over to him after the match saying, "you know, Uday would like your daughter to come to this party." His daughters were 13 and 11. And he knew what would happen at that party so he refused. Well, a few days later, I guess some other men came back to his home and told him, "look, either you send your 13-year-old daughter or we'll take both of your daughters."

I mean, that father had to make a choice to voluntarily send his daughter to save the other daughter. I mean those are the kinds of things going on. I don't even know if that was a story that ever got on air or just something we were talking with someone about. But it really brought home what people there are dealing with before the invasion.

HOLMES: Well, Bobby, let me bring you in here now. Should this week, this, "last combat brigade" that came out, should it be greeted with the kind of fanfare and celebratory mood and in some circles, at least, but still be viewed as the momentous occasion that it is? How do you view it?

BOBBY GHOSH, DEPUTY INTERNATIONAL EDITOR OF "TIME": The question is where should it be viewed in that way, T.J.. Here in the U.S., it's completely understandable, there is sense of relief that comes with this, even if it's, as you pointed out at the top of the hour, that there are still plenty of Americans still in harm's way in Iraq.

In Iraq, there's not jubilation, Arwa is there and probably can address this question better. But I don't see Iraqis writing thank you cards to the American military for all the work they did because the dark years that Iraqis talk about are not that far in the past and there's a genuine concern that they could come again. There has been this year, this summer, every month has been worse than the previous one. I think I saw statistics saying about 450 people, Iraqis, were killed last month, in July because of terrorist attacks. Those numbers are now beginning to creep back up to the levels. Maybe not 2007 which was really the worse year but closer and closer. And that's the problem.

All these gains that the U.S. military has fought and given blood and treasure to achieve are very, very fragile. And lots of Iraqis for very good reasons worry that things may slip back.

HOLMES: Well, to your point, Bobby, Arwa, let me bring you in. We know how it's being viewed here in the U.S., with some of the coverage we've seen. And it has been celebrated that the last combat brigade is out of there. How are Iraqis taking that news? Are they even aware of that particular momentous occasion?

DAMON: Well, T.J., Iraqis are very aware that the U.S. military is drawing down, changing its mission. They feel as if - some of them feel as if America is just abandoning them because it's trying to fulfill the White House agenda. When it comes to the attitude towards the U.S. military, look, no Iraqi wants the Americans to stay here forever.

They are, after all, an occupying force. But there are concerns about decreased U.S. footprint. Because of everything that this country has gone through, the U.S. military was largely perceived as being the only neutral force that could actually protect the people. This specific draw down we're seeing happening right now, this talk of the last convoy that hasn't really resonate with that many Iraqis.

They say, some of them say, that they're happy to see America leave but they don't know what their future is going to hold. There are concerns about capabilities of the Iraqi security forces. There's mixed opinion as to whether or not the U.S. should be staying here in greater numbers than they are actually going to be.

But the bottom line is that for Iraqis, no matter which way you look at it, with America, without America, the future is still very uncertain and very bleak. We've been talking to our own staff quite a bit over the last few days. And I've never seen them at such levels of despair, grown men on the verge of tears saying, "Arwa, the situation in Baghdad is not OK."

HOLMES: Well, that is very telling right there, Arwa. And I want to get two more questions in, one to you, Bobby, and also one to you, Chris.

And Chris, to you first. If you can do this for me at about 20, 30 seconds. But tell me, as long as you have been covering this war, what was it like for you to see that last combat brigade roll out? Was it a bit surreal for you to hear that news? How did you take it?

LAWRENCE: Yes, it just kind of brought me full circle. I mean, that, to me, really Iraq was the first big international story that I had ever covered, back in 2003. And you know, at the time, I remember being able to just go out in Baghdad and I'm sure you know, Arwa can speak to that as well, the days when you could just travel around with no security, when U.S. troops would sit outside at the cafes and share coffee and tea with the Iraqis.

And then how radically everything turned just about a year or two later. It's just amazing to see the ups and downs, you know, of this story.

HOLMES: Well, and one more to you here, Bobby. What is the next milestone we're going to look forward to in Iraq? What will we be talking about down the road as the next milestone?

GHOSH: From the Iraqis, for a start, want to see a government. It's been months since the election was over. And their political elite is still bickering and still unable to come to some sort of compromise to have an actual government.

So for the Iraqis, that is the most important milestone. For the U.S., I guess, the next milestone is the end of 2011, when President Obama has promised even more troops will come out. The thing that - the expectations continue to be very different. For the Iraqis, they want to see the promise of democracy, that was given to them, actually deliver in a tangible way. For the U.S., at this point, we're distracted by other things and we want as little as possible to do with Iraq. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way things are going in this.

HOLMES: Well, Bobby Ghosh, again, international editor for "Time" magazine. Our Arwa Damon in Baghdad for us and also, our Chris Lawrence, all of whom have spent a long time covering this war. Guys, we really appreciate you having here. Some great perspective about the next phase for Iraq. Thank you so much for being here. I'll talk to you all again real soon.

A quick break here. We're going to be right back. Speaking to a man who just got back from Iraq. He was a part of that last combat brigade coming out. We'll be talking to him and his wife. There they are joining us live this morning. 18 past the hour. Quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: You remember these pictures? Significant moment in the war in Iraq. December 13th, the day Saddam Hussein was captured and being checked out by a U.S. soldier. Getting a bit of a medical screening there, checking out his beard, his hair, of course, he had been hiding in a hole, as you know.

Welcome back again to our special half hour on Iraq, the last combat troops back from the war zone. It's been great to see the pictures we've been seeing this week. Men and women in uniform finally home. So what's next for them? We've been talking about them. So let's hear from them now.

Sergeant First Class Robert Lee returned to Washington state on Thursday. His wife, Doris, was waiting with open arms. They are both with us this morning. Guys, thanks so much for being here.

Doris, let me start with you. Did you see this as a historic moment necessarily? Or you just saw this as your husband was coming home?

DORIS LEE, HUSBAND JUST RETURNED FROM IRAQ: I saw it both ways. As a historic moment and as him coming home, also. It was very exciting.

HOLMES: Now, Sergeant Lee, you tell me, I know you guys are always looking forward to getting home. But how much of the moment grabbed you as well that this was a significant historical milestone moment for this whole war in Iraq?

SGT. 1ST CLASS ROBERT LEE, JUST RETURNED FROM IRAQ: Well, I guess while we were doing our job it was just doing our job. But then I guess near the end, wow, we're really going to be the last combat brigade leaving here. And while that is historic that will be a part of history. So it -

HOLMES: What -

No, what does that mean to you now? And I guess you've been seeing a lot of the news coverage this week and you've probably been taken a bit aback by it. So now do you see it differently as you're back here and putting it in more perspective?

ROBERT LEE: Well, I'm just proud to be a lot of that Stryker brigade. So it is a great moment.

HOLMES: How - Doris, how has it been for you over the past - I think he was gone a year. How has it been for you the past year knowing that things were going to be drawing down, but how does it feel now know that there's a good chance he won't be called back to Iraq? At least that's the hope now. That certainly wasn't the case for a lot of families over the past few years.

DORIS LEE: It's a blessing. It's a blessing to know that and to feel that way. But either way, I support my husband, his job, and the military.

HOLMES: You've been doing that for a long time. You have been supporting him for a long time. Do you feel a sense - certainly a relief that he's home. But is there more relief now to at least have one war drawing down?

DORIS LEE: Yes, sir.

HOLMES: It didn't take - we don't have to interpret that. We can hear the yes, sir. We can hear the joy in that voice. I guess, Sergeant Lee, what's next for you? I mean, are there chances you could end up in Afghanistan, which is now ramping up now?

ROBERT LEE: That is a possibility because we do have a great fighting forces in our Stryker brigade. But the Army is trying to give us more dwell time. So it will be at least a year, maybe two, before my unit is called up to such event.

HOLMES: Is that comforting at least that you have - forgive the term here, you have some downtime. I know that's your job, but still, knowing that you won't be back in a war zone, how comforting is that these days?

ROBERT LEE: It is a comfort. But my unit is trained and we're ready to do our job. But it is a comfort to be able to have some time at home.

HOLMES: Well, you will be home with your wife, Doris, for a little while. And you got home and you immediately got work to do because your 15-year wedding anniversary is coming up on the 25th. So congratulations. No excuses. We know you just got back but I don't think she's going to accept you forgetting or not putting something special together. I know you will. Sergeant Lee and his wife, Doris. Guys, good to see you. Happy anniversary.

ROBERT LEE: Thank you.

HOLMES: Hopefully, we can check in with you somewhere down the road. All right.

ROBERT LEE: Thanks a lot.

HOLMES: Good to have him and so many others home right now.

Quick break here on this CNN SATURDAY MORNING. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: We are committed to telling the story of every U.S. service member who has been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Our project is called "Home and Away." We're working together on cnn.com on it. These two wars have quite an impact on the lives of our young men and women and their families across this country, around the globe as well. You can go to cnn.com/homeandaway to learn more about the American troops who have been killed in these two wars.

I will be back with you at the top of the hour with more live news. But for right now, let me hand it over to "YOUR BOTTOM LINE."