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CNN Saturday Morning News
Reports of Police Opening Fire on Protestors, Death Tolls Rising; Egyptian Cabinet Hands in Resignation; Egypt's Place in Middle East Diplomacy Needed But Currently Uncertain; Making the Connection Between Civil Unrest in Yemen, Tunisia and Egypt
Aired January 29, 2011 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone.
At this hour, curfews are going into effect in major cities across Egypt. It is the government's attempt to break up the mass demonstrations going on right now. Those protesters are demanding change, historic change in fact, and things are changing by the hour.
Right now, reports that police opened fire on protesters who tried to storm a government building. The president's cabinet handed in their resignation a short time ago and the death toll among protesters is going up.
From the CNN Center, I'm Randi Kaye. I'd like to welcome our international audience joining us now on CNN International and you'll, of course, see some familiar faces here. Jonathan Mann and Isha Sesay, good morning.
ISHA SESAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Good morning, Randi.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Good morning.
KAYE: Good morning to you.
We'll get to you guys in just a moment. This is CNN SATURDAY MORNING. It is January 29th.
That's the broad stroke of what's happening in Egypt, but let's get right to the heart of the matter. On the ground in Cairo. That's where the biggest demonstrations are happening, and where soldiers are standing by just in case.
CNN's Frederick Pleitgen has been in Cairo over these last few tumultuous days and, Fred, if you could, tell us what you are seeing at this hour.
FREDERICK PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's been some interesting developments, Randi. About half an hour ago right here in our streets, which is one of the main streets here in Cairo, the Corniche, right beside the Nile, we saw what looks like nine or 10 additional battle tanks that are going into position here.
Now, they stopped right across our street. They don't seem to be advancing any further, what I can tell you there's dozens of military vehicles that are right in front of our building and there still is a very, very large crowd. We're taking the camera off the tripod right now and we're going to pan over to that crowd still standing in front of the Ministry of Information building, which we've been saying throughout the day is really one of the most hated institutions here in this country.
Well, they've been trying to protect that key installation. As you can see, there are still hundreds of people in front of that building. There are hundreds of people in front of a lot of other buildings. They should have intermittently started chanting again. But even though as (INAUDIBLE) a curfew is supposed to be going into place at this hour. As you can see, the people don't seem to be, either taking note of that or be caring about that curfew, which is actually exactly the same thing that happened here yesterday when a curfew went into effect at 6:00 p.m., and that just absolutely had no affect on the situation whatsoever.
You can see protesters now marching down the street by the Nile, coming closer to, or walking from here, from the Information Ministry to Tahrir (ph) Square where, of course, a lot of the protests have been taking place for the past couple of days, and the situation just remains, I would say - it's still one that's very charged but one that is peacefully charged. There's not even an inkling of violence, at least as far as we can tell, in our positions right here, Randi.
KAYE: And it does seem, that we've been checking in with you throughout the morning, it does seem as though the crowd is growing. But again, you're saying it seems as though it's peaceful. Where is the military at this hour? Have you seen any type of clashing with the military, between the military and the protesters?
PLEITGEN: No. There's been absolutely no clashes between military and protesters. I mean, if you look at the scene in front of our office here, I mean, they just - they just drove in here with 10 tanks, and they were welcomed by the protesters here, and the protesters made way, as you can see, for these massive military vehicles, which are very loud and obviously very difficult to maneuver as well.
So right now it appears as though the protesters are sort of trying to link up with the soldiers. They seem to be very happy that the soldiers are here, and people within the protests are doing everything they can to try and stop any sort of confrontation between soldiers and the protesters. It's a very interesting thing. Where it seems almost like the protesters are trying to get the military on their side. They keep chanting "the military and the people, we are one." So clearly, this is a much respected institution and one where the people believe that it might be on their side. Randi?
KAYE: And we've also confirmed that Hosni Mubarak's cabinet has resigned. Can you add anything to that?
PLEITGEN: Well, we've been, sort of been hearing rumors throughout the day, has it resigned or hasn't it resigned? It's interesting, now that it's confirmed we don't know whether or not a new cabinet is in place. So far as we can tell, there's not been an official announcement of any sort, but it's certainly something, as you can see has not squelch the mood among these protesters here or is not stopping them from going out in the street and voicing their anger. Clearly, dissolving the government is not something that they feel is enough to have their demands be met.
And I mean, you can just tell by these protests that it's about one person and one person alone, and that person is Hosni Mubarak. There are so many people who I have been speaking to on the street here who have been telling me they've been so disappointed when they heard Hosni Mubarak say in his speech last night, I'm taking responsibility, but everybody except me has to resign. So that's certainly something that didn't go down that well with a lot of people and it was interesting to see how early this morning on this Saturday morning people went out to the streets and started protesting. Randi?
KAYE: And as we look at these pictures from Cairo, Egypt, where you are, about 4:00 in the afternoon there, what, if you could, sort of tell us who these protesters are? What the crowd is made up of? And what they're fighting for still?
PLEITGEN: Well, I mean, the thing that they're fighting for is obviously very deep political and social change here in this country. They keep saying they want social justice, they want more jobs, they want better economic development. They want a more broad economic development, because actually when you look at the base of things, Egypt's economy has been growing quite well.
However, the majority of the people have not really been benefiting from that growth. And, of course, then there comes the fact that they want Hosni Mubarak to step down. (INAUDIBLE) this crowd, you will see people from all sorts of different walks of life. I don't know how well you can actually see this on the video, but there are people in suits. There's people in sort of religious garb walking around. There are people who looks like students. There are people who looked like they maybe from sort of, you know, poorer class here in society.
It really is coming from all sort of walks of life, and the interesting thing is, it's also all ages. You have some older people, but also a lot of very young people. You seem to have whole families coming to this protest together. Fathers bringing their son. I had one father tell me that he's actually coming here because of his son. Because he wants his son to have a better life here in this country and he wants his son to see this is the time to do that, Randi.
KAYE: All right. We'll leave it there. Fred Pleitgen for us in Cairo, Egypt. Thank you.
The Obama administration says it's closely monitoring the situation in Egypt. Last night President Obama called on everybody to show restraint while referencing the United States' long history with Egypt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've also been clear that there must be reform. Political, social and economic reforms that meet the aspirations of the Egyptian people. In the absence of these reforms, grievances have built up over time.
When President Mubarak addressed the Egyptian people tonight he pledged a better democracy and greater economic opportunity. I just spoke to him after his speech, and I told him, he has a responsibility to give meaning to those words. To take concrete steps and actions that deliver on that promise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: President Obama went on to say that the future of Egypt will be determined by its people.
I'm joined now by two CNN International anchors. Isha Sesay and Jonathan Mann, good to see you both. Let's talk about these demonstrations that we're seeing.
Why do you, Jonathan, think that the U.S. should keep an eye on this and be concerned about this?
MANN: Well, to be frank, Hosni Mubarak is the best friend that Washington has in the region. Keep in mind, he got his job when Anwar Sadat was assassinated for making peace with Israel. That's a crucial policy of U.S. policy in the Middle East is peace between the Arabs and the Israelis. Hosni Mubarak stayed with that policy. He stayed loyal to it. He stayed loyal to U.S. interests who basically upheaval in his own country.
This isn't the first time there have been demonstrations. Egyptians turned out to demonstrate against the United States. They've been doing it for decades. Hosni Mubarak has stayed a friend of Washington and is no doubt hoping that Washington will remain a friend to him throughout this.
KAYE: What has life been like, Isha, under Mubarak, for what now, almost 30 years?
SESAY: There's no doubt about it that Mubarak came into power, and immediately conditions put in place these emergency laws that have stayed in place effectively during in his time in charge. And what we've had is a real sense of crushing any kind of dissent or any kind of opposition. This is a state that is widely regarded as having a terrible human rights record, where the extra legal detentions and arrests where the police are known to be brutal.
There's no, you know, that's not even try and fudge that issue. The police are known for act of torture. They are hated by the people, which is something we've seen on the streets. You've seen these pictures of the police and the crowds having these running battles. The police are disliked intensely there in Egypt, and under Mubarak people have suffered. But there's no doubt about it. People queue for hours, Randi, to get bread in Egypt. I mean, we have a country where about 40 percent of the population is living on the poverty line, below the poverty line, about $2 a day.
KAYE: Right.
SESAY: This is a country where those who have money have decadent wealth. The businessmen. The business classes.
KAYE: There's nothing in between?
SESAY: Nothing in between. You either have or have not. And you know, apparently in Arabic term, they call them the fat cats, which we know from here. That's what these people are that formed this kind of cabal with Mubarak and enjoy the fat of the land while people suffer. People are frustrated and you know, a very, very, very informed analyst said to me, "Egyptians are incredibly patient. They're incredibly patient people. To see them get to this point is remarkable.
MANN: Keep in mind, this is the land of the pharaohs. Well, Hosni Mubarak is a 21st century pharaoh. He inherited his job from his predecessor. There was no election. He got the job. He was intending to give it to his son, like the pharaohs did. And what you're seeing now is as momentous as an uprising against a pharaoh. That's why it's so incredible and why it will have such enormous repercussions in that country of 80 million and beyond.
KAYE: And when you look at these pictures as we've been showing all morning, what strikes, Isha, what strikes you most?
SESAY: I think what really strikes me is the fact that the people are out on the streets with what appears to be an apparent lack of fear. Despite the fact --
KAYE: Very bold.
SESAY: Very bold. You know? And another point pointed out to me by another analyst is that Egyptians feel shamed by the fact that Tunisia, a small country on the fringes of the Arab world could rise up and topple their president, and Egypt, a country of 80 million people have lived in this repressed society, unable to be galvanized to this extent until now.
I think I'm just really taken back by the fact that the crowds are so mixed, Young people, old people, professional class, working classes, and they're out there. They said, enough is enough.
MANN: Can I speak to that really quickly? Because if you look at the crowds, I'm sitting here with two women. Guess who we aren't seeing? And that's for two reasons. Egypt is, of course, a Muslim society, a profoundly Muslim society.
KAYE: You're saying you're not seeing women.
MANN: I'm not women, and it's not just because of tradition. I can tell you that in covering the democracy movement in Egypt myself, I've spoken to women who when they have gone out to take part in really tepid little protests, we're talking about really modest things, they weren't just beaten, they were sexually groped by the security apparatus. Because knowing, personally, what that would be like to undergo but also the shame associated with that in that culture.
And so even today, we're not seeing a lot of women. We're seeing, as Isha was saying, people on every walk of life, but really for the most part only one gender. Women have contributed to these by throwing things at police from their windows, apparently, from stories above.
SESAY: Absolutely. Onions and bottles of water.
KAYE: Right. Sort of behind the scenes.
MANN: But it's really an all-male affair for the most part.
KAYE: All right. Let's leave it here for a moment, Jonathan, Isha. We're going to continue to check back with you and lean on your expertise and experience in this area throughout the next several hours.
The civil unrest in Egypt presents a huge test for U.S. diplomacy. We'll talk live one on one with a former U.S. ambassador to the Middle East and find out what he thinks should be the United States' next step. We are back in just 90 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAYE: Welcome back to both our U.S. and international audiences.
Our top story this morning, Egyptian street protests now enter a fifth day. Egypt has been a long-time American ally and a political power keg known as the Middle East. A toppled Egyptian government would mean a lot of uncertainty and probably some major worries for U.S. diplomats.
Let's discuss some of those finer points with former U.S. ambassador Edward Djerejian. He is currently the director of the Baker Institute at Houston's Rice University and that's where he joins us live from there this morning.
Good to see you. Tell us -
EDWARD DJEREJIAN, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Good morning.
KAYE: Tell, us, Mr. Ambassador, what would you say, what diplomatic challenges does the U.S. relationship with Egypt present to the U.S. government?
DJEREJIAN: Well, first, Egypt is the single most important Arab country in the Middle East. The population of 80 million. A major military power in the region. The country that first has made peace with Israel in the famous 1979 peace agreement. So, therefore, Egypt is really the pillar of the Arab-Israeli peace context.
It straddles geopolitically the Suez Canal, a major transit point in the world, and culturally, Egypt is one the most important countries in the whole Muslim world. So this is indeed one of our most important bilateral relationships. We've had a very close relationship with Egypt over the years. We've had our ups and downs. So the challenge to American foreign policy interest in the Middle East is huge. And whatever happens in Egypt is going to affect us.
MANN: Ambassador, this is Jonathan Mann at CNN Center. The United States has given billions of dollars in military aid to Egypt over the years. The Egyptian chief of the military staff was actually in Washington when all of these started. How important now, given the uncertainty of Hosni Mubarak's future, is the conversation between Washington and the Egyptian military?
DJEREJIAN: Well, I think that conversation, Jonathan is critical because if you look at the scenarios of what might happen in Egypt, and believe me, nobody can predict what's going to happen, but the military is the pillar of the regime. It has, as you know, been the pillar of the regime since the Gamal Abdel Nasser coup in the 1950s. Every Egyptian president has been a man from the military, including Mubarak.
So the military is the mainstay of the regime. Therefore, it is very important that we maintain a very effective relationship with the military. I think that what's going to happen in Egypt, if one can venture to predict, is that either things will unravel in a very chaotic situation, which will be in no one's interest, or Mubarak will try to get the military to, how shall we say it? Impose an enforced calm for a period of transition.
The military is the only agency of the Egyptian government that can succeed to do it. We've seen what's happened with the police services. But, therefore, to answer your question, those conversations are critical.
SESAY: Mr. Ambassador, it's Isha Sesay here, also at CNN's Center in Atlanta. Speaking to your point, of the different options that exist in the future for the way this could go. What level of influences does the U.S. really have in all of these? I want to get your assessment of that because those who feel that U.S. is really caught flat-footed here.
DJEREJIAN: Well, I don't think we've been caught flat-footed as a country. We've had this relationship with Egypt. Democratic and Republican administrations have been urging privately, not so much publicly, reform. Political and economic reforms on the Egyptian regime as well as other Arab regimes that have autocratic systems.
When I was assistant secretary of state for (INAUDIBLE) in 1992 we embarked on a policy of urging political and economic reforms on these Arab countries with the great, great concern that if change, radical change came from with these countries what could the United States do? What good is our military? What good is our fifth fleet? So we've been involved in urging these countries to impose, if you will, effective reforms, but mostly we've been talking the talk and not walking the walk. We haven't made political and economic reforms in the central part of our bilateral relationship. We haven't been, I believe, assertive enough, throughout various American administrations.
So no one is caught flat-footed, I think, in Washington, but it's now can we respond to this? I think our influence at this point, this is really in the hands of the Egyptian people now, the various civil society, political parties and Hosni Mubarak. What I would hope for in this circumstance, and it's all about President Mubarak's regime.
It's not so much about the government that he had resigned. It's about his regime. It's that he can possibly make a speech. It was not last night's speech, but make a speech in which he tells the Egyptian people, "I hear you. I hear your frustrations. We are going to have presidential elections later this year. I am going to assure open political participation, opposition parties, all facets of Egyptian society to participate, and choose the next leadership of Egypt."
That, I think, might have some chance of assuring a peaceful transition, but I'm not sure that will happen.
KAYE: Ambassador, we've been focusing quite a bit on Egypt this morning, but when you look at the whole region and you talk about what some are calling the Tunisian effect, as we looked at what happened in Tunisia, how do we stop this violence and the energized protesters from spreading across the region?
DJEREJIAN: I think our influence is very limited. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's very difficult for the United States to take specific measures that can really stop it. This is really -
KAYE: But you agree it's critical to stop?
DJEREJIAN: Not fully in the court of - oh, yes. I mean, well, what I think is that if the - look. If the situation in Egypt unravels and there's chaos, and/or radical groups take over the Egyptian government, American foreign policy and national security interests in the whole Middle East will be at risk. Not only the Arab-Israeli context, I'm sure that the leaders in Israel are watching this with great concern, but every other Arab country, every other Arab leader and regime is watching the events in Egypt with great concern, and immediately assessing their own situation.
What started in Tunisia and has really caught fire in the most important country in the Arab world has vast implications for the whole Middle East. But let me say one other thing, because I've heard a lot of commentary on the airwaves that the Muslim Brotherhood, if that is the choice between the Mubarak regime and the Muslim Brotherhood, we shouldn't jump to that conclusion.
I think in any political transition, if it is peaceful, the Muslim Brotherhood will play a role but we should not jump to the conclusion that it's going to be sort of like Iran where the mullahs and the ayatollahs take over. Egypt is a very complex society. Jonathan, you know that it has a strong middle class. It has professional associations. You have people like Mohamed ElBaradei. So we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that the Muslim brotherhood that takes over.
KAYE: All right. We will leave it there. Former U.S. ambassador Edward Djerejian. Thank you so much for your time this morning. Jonathan.
MANN: The prime minister and cabinet are out but President Hosni Mubarak is still in, and protesters are still crowding into the streets. We'll tell you what they're so angry about, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SESAY: Welcome back, everyone.
The unrest in Egypt isn't isolated. Over the past weeks, we've seen turmoil in several neighboring countries including Tunisia and Yemen.
Now these places have plenty in common, including a young population and high unemployment, but does that mean these protests are all about the same things? CNN Josh Levs joins me this morning to explain -- Josh.
JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Isha, as you know, I mean, look we can talk how this whole thing began in a way. A big piece of what instigated all this. One young man in Tunisia, 26 years old who is unemployed set up a fruit car and was told he didn't have a permit and ultimately had to deal with police and authorities have said, some human rights groups said he was mistreated. His anger, his frustration when he went and ultimately set himself on fire is and what has in so many ways spread throughout the region and the reason is that he is than situation was emblematic of so much of the population in that region. You have all of these countries that we're talking about, large populations, under the age of 30.
You have high unemployment. And there's a term that I've been learning, as we're following all these protests, it's called the blocked elite. You have large populations of the blocked elite. These are people who are educated, who have every reason to believe that they should be getting more elite jobs, be a part of the society. And a lot are frustrated when they look at the government and say, here they have this education, they know how to contribute and get much better paying jobs and then getting them. They feel that in many ways, and analysts are telling me that they're frustrated with totalitarian aspects to these societies.
So when you look at all these countries, you see some specifics in each country that can change the protests, but the way they play out, that's where it gets similar. So yes, you can look, for example, at Yemen. You can look at Algeria. They both have these histories of civil wars, of major internal strife. That changes the way that these protests will play out in that country. In Tunisia, you have a more homogeneous population. That changes what happens there. And in Egypt, you have everything that we're seeing here. But in the end, the big picture, all the analysts in the region, I saw it too, are pretty much saying the same thing. That it is clear when it comes down to what they want, where they're coming from and what it is that they are hoping, these fights - remember even revolutions, they want to - ultimately achieve it's pretty much across the board, Isha.
SESAY: And Josh, talk to me about the fact these countries have Islamic movements with their borders. I mean, what role are they playing in all of this, if any? Explain that for our viewers.
LEVS: Yes, it's so interesting to look at that because we follow the Islamist movements in general, it's something we cover, the way that they are changing, some of these societies, especially in Yemen, the last couple of years, we've had reason to follow that. But what you're seeing, all analysts, again, I talk to, say if you look at these countries, Algeria, Yemen and Egypt and general, when we're seeing these fights, they are not coming from Islamist movements, they're generally coming from moderate groups and along with secular groups that are coming together to express the frustration that they share -- Isha.
SESAY: Josh Levs breaking it all down for us, we appreciate it. Thank you.
LEVS: You got it.
MANN: Well, Cairo has been the center of the protests in Egypt, there have been demonstrations in cities across the country. Alexandria is one example on Mediterranean coast. As we mentioned, the curfew went into effect about 30 minutes ago. Al Jazeera reports that 20 people have been killed in protests in Alexandria.
Joining us now, on the line, is CNN producer, Saad Abedine.
Saad, what's going on around you now?
SAAD ABEDINE, CNN PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, hi. Well, as you know I'm right here in the middle of the demonstration in Alexandria. The crowd is headed toward the Machias (ph) public square. I see armored -- military armed vehicles, and believe it or now, they have the crowds roped on the vehicle, on the military vehicle "down with Mubarak, down with the regime" and the people and the military are one face in the tyranny, no to the tirade (ph). I mean, this is incredible. I've never seen anything like this. They're writing this on the military vehicle, and you know Mubarak is the head of the military, right here in Egypt. He is not just the president, but he is also (INAUDIBLE) of the military -- so, it's just amazing watching the crowd trying to shout all the time, "peaceful, peaceful, keep it peaceful," and "down with regime, down with Mubarak."
MANN: Now, just to make this point again, for people who haven't been following this that closely, and especially events in Alexandria. This is a complete turnaround from what, 24 hours ago when they were fighting pitched battles?
ABEDINE: Yes, well here's the thing. What happens right here is that yesterday they were facing the riot police and the Ministry of Interior and there were clashes, tear gas, they were beating (ph) them. As you know, there's a history. Egypt has a history of police brutality and this is what they were against. This is what the demonstrators wanted, they wanted the whole government, the ministers of the interior to step down, the president to step down because of the torture cases, because of the police brutality and everything else.
But today there's no sign of one single policemen on the ground, right here in (INAUDIBLE), there is not even one person, no riot police, nobody, just the military. And the military is keeping it very, very simple. They're here, they're saying that they're here to protect the people, they're not clashing with the people. They're allowing the people to demonstrate in a peaceful manner. They shout "down with the regime" right in front of military of the regime.
MANN: Now, there has still been enormous anger across Egypt, that didn't dissipate overnight or in the last few days. Egyptians in Cairo have been setting symbols of the regime afire. Are they continuing to loot and attack government and police buildings in Alexandria?
ABEDINE: No, we don't see that right now. We don't see it in our area at all. All what we see is that people -- I personally believe, and that's what I feel, that's what I heard from so many people here on the ground from everybody that I talked to, they believe that they accomplished something when they pushed the president to ask the government to resign, but they want more. They feel they can accomplish so much more than just bringing down his government. They want to bring down the entire regime, the whole system and they want to start fresh. They want new elections, they asking for social justice, for freedom, new elections, new leaders and they just want to start all over. I mean, one -- I saw on one of the burned police stations from yesterday was half a century, "a quarter century is more than enough for you," in reference to, you know, the 30 years that Mubarak came in power.
MANN: Help us with something, because inevitably in all of our reporting we keep talking about "they," the people on the streets. Who are "they?" Is there anyone in charge? Is there any political organization any religious organization, any group at all directing this extraordinary upheaval?
ABEDINE: No, to be honest with you, I talked to people, and believe it or not, even when I was listening to the Imam in a mosque nearby, he said the young people on Facebook -- I couldn't believe hearing it from a sheikh, from a masque saying the people, the young men on Facebook, they believe this is a very popular movement, it has nothing to do with any political group. People just believe that they just had it, everybody saying enough is enough, it's time to move on, it's time to have a new Egypt, and they just wanted him out, the entire regime to go away. So, we didn't see any looting, we didn't see anything -- today, it's just peaceful demonstration by young men and women, old men, old women, some people are (INAUDIBLE) some people are not. I mean, it's just amazing. People from all walks of life walking down the street and shouting, "Down with Mubarak."
MANN: I've come back to what you just said. It's extraordinary, in Egypt, a country that has been a historic home of Islam, a cleric signaling the leadership of Facebook at this moment. This is extraordinary. How many of the people you're seeing that are in their 20s, in their teens? How many young people are among these crowds?
ABEDINE: I talked to so many people yesterday who are 19 years old, 20 years old and older people. A 19 years old students, told me yesterday, we're not happy with just him saying you know, (INAUDIBLE) just push the government to resign, we want (INAUDIBLE), we him also be tried, that's what everybody is saying. They don't want him just to flee to Saudi Arabians. (INAUDIBLE) over here saying, "Saudi Arabia is waiting for you, Mubarak," they want him to be tried for everything that he has committed. They accuse him of all the torture against people, they accuse him of corruption, they accused -- I mean, (INAUDIBLE) that I hear over and over it's kind of funny, you've got to love them and enjoy the Egyptian sense of humor, everybody is shouting, "(INAUDIBLE) Mubarak, tell your father that we don't love him, we don't like him." I mean, this is (INAUDIBLE).
MANN: We're getting some interference on the phone line. I apologize to the viewers. But, Saab Abedine in Alexandria. What you have to notice is people have been frustrated and angry for years, for decades in Egypt. The sense I'm getting from you is that what's changed is they feel brave? They feel emboldened?
ABEDINE: Yes, definitely. I mean, they feel they that they have accomplished so much. I'm sorry, guys we are in the middle of the demonstration. That's why you hear all the noise.
I just want to let you know what is going on, they feel they accomplished so much by bringing down the government and they feel they want more. They're not going to stop. Everybody is saying, one of the slogans that I saw over here, "Mubarak, it's a wakeup call, today is your last day." They want this to be the last days of Mubarak's rule. So, they're not stopping just brining down one government, they want everything.
MANN: Saab Abedine, reporting live from Alexandria, where, as he tells us, they are not stopping -- Randi.
KAYE: All right, let's continue now. On the line we have Ian Lee, he is live in Cairo for us.
And Ian, if I understand this correctly, you witnessed this morning's firefight at the Interior Ministry. Can you tell us what you saw?
IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Actually, right now I'm standing in front of a guy who looks like he's been shot in the head, maybe a graze -- it looks like he's, (INAUDIBLE) spitting out blood, maybe a bit more than a graze, but there's a firefight right now going on around the ministry. We're seeing people dragged away, and we're seeing the surge, protesters keep surging the ministry.
KAYE: All morning we've been saying how these protests have been much more peaceful than yesterday. Can you take us back and tell us how this turned so ugly?
LEE: Well, the protesters, by and large, have been peaceful, when the police aren't around, but right now the Ministry of Interior is kind of like an Alamo and the police have it surrounded. That's their last stand, so the protesters see them as representing the government and are trying to push towards the Interior Ministry.
KAYE: And who's inside the building and who's outside the building?
LEE: Well, right now they have an area cordoned off around the Interior Ministry. You can only get about as far as maybe a block, or as close as a block away. They have -- they have people shooting down the side streets, so we are unable to get any closer without the threat of being shot ourselves. But --
KAYE: Who is actually doing the shooting? Who's armed?
LEE: it is the police, the Ministry of Interior, the police. The army has taken control of the city, but the police are still surrounding the Ministry of Interior, now.
KAYE: And does it seems as though the protesters in the crowd, were they given any warning? From what we understand, anyone who is still on the street after the curfew is going to be treated as a criminal. Was there any warning that went out?
LEE: Well, I can tell you this -- there's tens of thousands, maybe even 100,000 people on the street, right now, so I don't think they can really enforce that curfew, but I can tell you the Ministry of Interior, I've been around there almost all day off and on, and protesters have tried to charge multiple times. Actually this morning at 8:30 we heard (INAUDIBLE) and tear gas being fired at protesters, made our way over there, and even early this morning, they were still making runs at the Interior Ministry.
KAYE: Do the protesters, as we look at the picture, there, they're holding up signs saying, "Mubarak leave," they're lighting pictures on fire, do they seem more emboldened to you, today?
LEE: Oh definitely, today is the largest demonstration, largest protest. The most people I've seen in the streets, so far. You know, starting from the 25th every day it just seems like it grew larger and larger, and you know, there's rumors flying around that Mubarak is going to leave soon, rumors are flying around about the National Democratic Party, so that's definitely emboldening the protesters. They definitely feel like they are making ground.
KAYE: And certainly not listening to the curfew. I believe you just said, tens of thousands on the street, can you compare today's crowd to yesterday's? LEE: Oh, today's crowd is by far larger than yesterday's. I'm down in Tahrir, I've been in Tahrir, now at the Ministry of Interior and it's just packed everywhere, it's just packed with people, there. Yes, it's definitely more people today than yesterday.
KAYE: And is there any satisfaction? I know many still disappointed with the fact that Mubarak is still there and in power, or at least seems to be in power, any satisfaction in the fact that the cabinet resigned?
LEE: Well, you know, actually, I saw a man holding a sign that said, "We want the regime to leave, not the government," so, you know, definitely anyone who's associated with the National Democratic Party, they don't want them around anymore. And -- sorry?
KAYE: No, go on.
LEE: And definitely the protesters, you know, feel that they'll be satisfied once every member of the National Democratic Party has left.
KAYE: And is this group of protesters, tens of thousands in numbers, are they moving or are they staying right where they are, there, even given the danger?
LEE: Well, right now we have, the tens of thousands kind of make up this whole area, and in Tahrir they're kind of staying put, they're chanting slogans, "Down with Mubarak," but near the Ministry of Interior, we have, you know, at itself, we have a few thousand who are away from the bigger mob, but you know, these areas are very close, and that mob is making up close, continuing, pushing towards the Ministry of Interior, even though there seems to be live fire shot at them.
KAYE: And as we've been on the air, have you been, as you've been talking with us, have you heard anymore gunfire?
LEE: Oh, yes. I'm surprised you can't even hear -- you can't hear it, because it's so loud and so frequent. You're hearing it continuously in the background, the thud of gunshots and of tear gas.
KAYE: And are people screaming? I mean, can you just take us there a little bit closer? I mean, if you can tell us sort of what the scene is. I mean is anybody else being shot? You described that one man who it looked like, you said, had been grazed in the head and was even spitting up blood?
LEE: Yes, actually, since I told you that I saw another man who was also spitting up blood as he was being dragged away. The protesters are shouting, they're walking towards the Ministry of Interior, they're staying a certain distance. They keep pushing, surging forward, but they're yelling and you know, they're not backing down by any means.
KAYE: And do the protesters seemed armed, or is it still just the police firing, as you said? And if so, how are the police able to maintain their presence there if the military has taken over?
LEE: Well, the protesters aren't armed, maybe with rocks and sticks, but definitely not with any firearms. But then we have, you know -- the army has taken control of the city, but really, the Interior Ministry is still controlled by the police. That is their headquarters. If that falls, then you know, as many protesters here would say, that would be like a checkmate. That is the last, almost outpost of the police presence in Cairo.
KAYE: And does the situation seem to be worsening? I can hear the shouting behind you. Where are you in relation to the crowd and the Interior Ministry?
LEE: Hold on a second. We're surging away. I'm -- running away. It looks like the police are making a surge, and protesters are scattering everywhere. I'm sorry. Had was your question?
KAYE: Where are you running to? And I was going to ask you if the situation seems to be getting worse? It sounds like yes.
LEE: Yes, the situation is getting worse. It looks like they fired, but the protesters, they scattered, regrouped and now are pushing back.
MANN: Forgive me for interrupting, but I'm hoping you can make a point for as many viewers in the United States, they know about the Department of the Interior in this country and its responsibilities. The Ministry of the Interior in a place like Egypt, I mean, it's the police headquarters of a police state. It's not just a symbolic building, but there's an awful lot in there that people want to know presumably and would want to destroy.
LEE: Oh, yes. You know, a lot of the anger that we've seen has been directed towards the police, and you're correct, the Interior Ministry is different than in the United States where here it's the -- the secret police are -- come out of here, all the different security services of that run Egypt internally are basically based out of the Interior Ministry. So, this is a huge symbol for people.
And Egypt has been under emergency rule for the last, almost 30 years now, and the police have been able to do basically whatever they would like without consequence, and so, you know, the people are now responding to that, and are trying to challenge that last stronghold of that -- that emergency law.
MANN: I'm getting a sense from the reporting we're seeing and dispatches from the scene that in fact, though the authorities have let crowds control the streets, there are some things the regime is defending, there are red lines that the protesters in Cairo are not being allowed to cross, presumably the Interior of Ministry is not the only one?
LEE: Yes, you're correct. The army has surrounded several important buildings, for instance, the Foreign Ministry, the Ministry of Information and also the Parliament. The army is taking control of all the other public buildings, but it is the Ministry of Interior which is the last police presence on the street.
SESAY: Ian, it's Isha Sesay here, in Atlanta, also. And one thing I'm intrigued by is whether in all this chanting, we know that the crowds there want to see Mubarak and his regime go, but are we hearing anything about Mohamed ElBaradei?
LEE: You know, actually, I just talked to a protester a little while ago about Mohamed ElBaradei and they -- you know, a lot of people will say, you know, will asked where was he when everything was happening in Egypt, a lot of them you know, don't -- don't see him as a legitimate leader, because he hasn't been in Egypt long enough. A lot of them will tell you that he's always traveling and so they don't see him necessarily as someone who will lead. Now, you know, there are -- but you know, there are some people who do see him as a legitimate leader, but by and large, a lot of the people I talked to are bringing up other names for leaders, and -- instead of ElBaradei.
SESAY: The follow up question to that, Ian, is this issue of the Muslim brotherhood, the opposition voice, the largest and best organized there in Egypt, I'm wondering what difference it has made to these protest, the fact that they called for protesters to join those on the streets on Friday. Has that increased the intensity of what we're looking at?
LEE: You know, I would think that we would have seen a large protest on the street Friday, one way or another. The 25th was really the day that kicked everything off, and it really -- it started a lot through Facebook. People are calling it here the Facebook Revolution, and that organize it. And people saw the momentum of the 25th, that carried over and then as it was announced coming out on Friday, there was more people who were called out Friday, as well, and definitely more opposition groups are playing a key role, a big role, but to say that today, or yesterday and today wouldn't be as large because of them. I think -- I think these people would have been out in the street, anyway.
SESAY: All right, Ian, I'm going to ask you to stand by for us, because we want to update our viewers, if they're just joining us on what exactly is taking place in Egypt. Let's bring them up to speed what is happening. Ian Lee joining us from the streets of Cairo around the Interior Ministry where crowds are indeed gathered.
Now, let me tell you what state run TV is saying. They are telling us that 38 people have died in the unrest and that includes 10 members of the country's security forces. Al Jazeera is reporting that at least 40 people have died.
Now, tanks have begun rolling into Cairo surrounding Tahrir Square, the focal point of the demonstration. Now, it is the first time in more than 20 years the army has been deployed in the country. Well, President Mubarak has not been seen in public for some time. Now, he of course, made that televised speech yesterday, but gave no indications that he intends to step down. A summary of what's taking place in Egypt, if you are just joining us.
KAYE: And once again we want to bring back in Ian Lee, who we were just speaking to, who is live for us on the streets of Cairo where he has been witnessing a firefight, gunfire outside the Interior Ministry, there, between police and the protesters.
Ian, if you could, tell us where you are now, have you been pushed back? And what you're seeing.
LEE: Well, we're still at the same place. Basically the police have kind of this area cordoned off around the Interior Ministry. The alleys are basically shooting galleries where you can't really push down. If you go any further, you will be either shot or gassed, so right now the police just fired, sent the protesters running. But yes, we're about as close as you can get without really being in the line of fire, with the risk of being shot.
KAYE: And as you told us just a moment ago, you've now witnessed now two people shot. Can you take us back through how that unfolded?
LEE: Yes. I'm at this cordon, and I saw one man being dragged away, he was covering his head and he was spitting out blood. His friend was taking him away. He didn't look very conscious, he was being dragged away. I saw another man just right after that also spitting out blood. He would seem to be able to walk a little bit, but definitely looked like they were hit by something.
KAYE: And does it seem as though the protesters from your vantage point are backing down or backing away as you talk about these police firing shots into these crowds?
LEE: You know, it really is a fluid situation. You'll have the protesters charged, the police will look like -- will open fire, it will scatter the protesters, they will regroup and then they will charge again.
KAYE: What are the protesters saying? Are they chanting, are they shouting? Are they egging the police on? Or what is the scene?
LEE: They're definitely chanting, you know, anti-government slogans, but also, you know, they're shouting insults at the police down at the other end.
KAYE: And has the crowd -- about how large is this crowd now and is it growing or shrinking?
LEE: The crowd is -- there's probably around a thousand people around, and it definitely is about staying the same. You'll have people come here, having people leave. It's staying the same. But right now I'm actually seeing thick, black smoke coming out of a building. I can't tell where it is. It's closer to us than the Interior Ministry, but there's a huge fire now between the protesters and the police, it looks like.
KAYE: Is the Interior Ministry on fire or what buildings are you on fire that you can tell?
LEE: It doesn't look like -- no, this isn't the Interior Ministry. This is closer to me than the Interior Ministry. But it definitely looks like a building, maybe, I would say probably 100 yards, 200 yards from the Interior Ministry is on fire.
KAYE: Can you describe the crowd, Ian, for us?
LEE: Yes, well, the crowd is made up of younger males, and you know, roughly in their 20s and 30s. You know, there's definitely some elderly here, older gentlemen, but definitely the young people who are leading this assault.
KAYE: And does it seem as though the anger is still directed at Mubarak and the Egyptian government or are you hearing any anti-U.S. sentiment?
LEE: You know, that's interesting, because I have -- I have heard of some anti-U.S. sentiment, especially because the tear gas canisters on them that are shot at the protesters say "Made in the USA" and the shotgun shells that we're seeing, the cartridges also say "Made in the USA." a lot of the protesters are coming up to us saying, look, "made in the USA," so a lot of protesters are coming up to us and saying, look, "Made in the USA," and you know, they're saying you know, there's chants that Mubarak was a puppet of America, a lot of people.
But there's one thing that I thought was really interesting. A man had a sign that said, "President Obama, don't support Mubarak. We don't want to hate the USA." And so really, it's -- though a lot of people are saying the U.S.' support for Mubarak is the main reason why the people are angry at the United States.
KAYE: All right, Ian Lee, I know this is a very fluid situation, there in Cairo. I want you to stay there for us, if you can. We will check back with you. In the meantime, we're going to take a very quick break. Our special coverage of the crisis in Egypt continues right after this.
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