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CNN Saturday Morning News

Eyewitnesses Give Accounts of Empire State Building Shootings; Projections For Hurricane Isaac; Romney and Ryan Campaigning in Ohio; Projections for Presidential Race; Mexican Police Shooting of U.S. Embassy Officials; Handcuffed Man's Death Ruled Suicide; Armstrong Banned from Cycling for Life; Apple Wants More than Money

Aired August 25, 2012 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning everyone. I'm Randi Kaye. It's 8:00 a.m. on the East Coast, 5:00 a.m. out west. Thanks so much for waking up with us.

This morning we're learning about the office grudge that led to the deadly gun battle outside the Empire State building. It left two dead, including the gunman and nine others injured. We're about to show you now some video that you may find disturbing, but we're showing it to you so you can see how the chaos unfolded.

Here is CNN's Poppy Harlow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Morning rush hour in New York City, unexpected gunfire and mayhem led to what's seen here, amateur video obtained by CNN revealing police standing over a man suspected of murdering his former co-worker seen shortly before he himself died.

REBECCA FOX, SHOOTING WITNESS: All of a sudden there's just cops running down and people are taping off scenes. It was just like kind of a scene out of "CSI," honestly, but it was real.

HARLOW: Shaken and terrified as she was heading to work, 27-year old Rebecca Fox watched a deadly shooting unfold in front of the Empire State building.

FOX: When I walked across the street, I saw a woman had been shot in the foot. She was just in shock sitting there. I looked down and I saw another man had been laying on the ground and he wasn't moving.

HARLOW: Anika Basu witnessed the scene from a city bus as she was on her way to work.

ANIKA BASU, SHOOTING WITNESS: I heard the gunshots and we looked towards the left and saw three people fall or three or four people fall. Like I said the whole entire crosswalk emptied and people were running.

HARLOW: Witnesses say they saw blood on the sidewalk, coffee cups strewn about and people running frantically. Police described the suspected shooter, Jeffrey Johnson of Manhattan as a disgruntled employee laid off from Hazan Import here in New York's garment district about a year ago. They say the man he shot and killed was a former co-worker who he was feuding with over alleged workplace harassment.

COMMISSIONER RAY KELLY, NEW YORK POLICE: And a dispute with one of the former employees of Hazan in front of the building. Johnson produced a pistol and fired at close range striking his 41-year-old victim in the head.

HARLOW: Eight others were shot. A nearby construction worker notified two on duty police officers who then fired 14 rounds, killing Johnson in the process. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg says wounded victims may have been inadvertently shot by police.

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: The tape clearly shows the guy has the gun out and trying to kill the police officers. He is dead. The perpetrator is dead.

HARLOW: Police say the 58-year-old suspected shooter was wearing a suit and tie. At 9:00 a.m. rush hour, he would have blended in with a lot of folks going to work here. But in one hand he had a .45 caliber pistol, in the another, a bag with an additional magazine in it. Johnson's superintendent says he lived alone on the second floor of this building. He saw him leave after 8:00 a.m. wearing the same suit he usually did. His neighbor, stunned.

GISELA CASELLA, SUSPECT'S NEIGHBOR: I'm in shock. I can't believe that. He was the nicest guy. I think he snapped or something. I don't know.

HARLOW: Law enforcement tells CNN there's no indication of any terrorism connection. Mayor Bloomberg though has long called for stricter gun legislation.

BLOOMBERG: We are not immune to the national problem of gun violence.

BASU: You know, a couple of things can change in your day. And some days I walk to work and that could have been me easily.

HARLOW: Poppy Harlow, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: So what were police thinking when this was all happening? Security director and former police investigator Lou Palumbo helps us break it down later this hour.

Tropical storm Isaac is on course for Cuba and then maybe west Florida and the Gulf coast. Haiti already got a taste of Isaac's drenching rains. CNN's Martin Savidge is in Jacmel in southern Haiti.

Martin, it looks pretty rough there. Forecasters are saying the worst may not be over yet. But if the rains continue, it looks like a pretty bad situation for you. MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Randi. I should tell you right now, the storm seems to be kicking up once again. It has been like this on the southern coast of Haiti every since 11:00 last night and the beating has not let up. On top of the very heavy winds, I guess they are not hurricane-force winds, but definitely very strong tropical force winds, we are getting the rain and it is the rain.

That's the worry in this country because of the fact that so many people, hundreds of thousands of them are living in either tent cities or very minimal sort of housing. Then on top of that you're talking about a very mountainous country, lots of water pouring down the mountain sides, flooding and racing into neighborhoods.

In this immediate area, this is all we can talk about, there's moderate damage to house and structures and I'm talking major structures, cement buildings, roofs off, power lines down, major trees down. There is no traffic out on the streets. There's no power in the area. What power we have is done by a generator. But beyond that there is some cell phone service but it's very spotty.

It's the wind that continues to hammer and the trees now beginning to get uprooted because of all the water that has soaked the ground. As far as injuries, loss of life, no way to tell. Emergency officials we have not been able to get in contact with. Right now it is still a very difficult situation on the southern coast of Haiti. Isaac is not leaving apparently -- Randi.

KAYE: Martin, give us an idea of the danger of these mudslides and the force and who might be in their path?

SAVIDGE: Well, these would be huge landslides. Not necessarily those that just block a road and become an inconvenience, but the ability to cause the side of a mountain to give way. A lot of the trees here have been cut down. People use it for building material. People use it for heating and cooking. So as a result you know what that does, the mudslides come down, inundate communities. That's the real fear.

We pass through the mountains yesterday on our way to get here. They were already trying to shore up the roads up there and the land was beginning to give way even before the rain started. So it's hard to imagine what they are facing now. That is the flash flooding. In this community, Jacmel, it's a very serious thing. It killed hundreds of people eight years ago. They are hoping they don't see a repeat of that.

KAYE: And we mentioned these tent camps. Nearly a quarter million people living still in these tent camps in Haiti since the quake. In 2010 there were deaths and damage in Jacmel. Has the town recovered and now to see them get hit with this, where do they go from here?

SAVIDGE: I talked to the mayor yesterday and he was like what have we done that God is so angry? What he meant by that was the fact that, here they are in the recovery effort and now this storms come in.

The recovery work they were doing was to rework all of their storm sewers to do away with the flooding problem that they historically have. They got caught right in the middle of it which means that the situation is only worse, not made better. That's on top of now whatever wind damage they are getting. It's really hard to say how much people have suffered in this part of the country for so long.

KAYE: Mark Savidge there in Jacmel, Haiti and our thanks for your photographer as well for continuing to wipe that lens so we can see you and what's happening there.

This just in to CNN, National Hurricane Center is issuing some new guidance on tropical storm Isaac. Let's bring in meteorologist Bonnie Schneider.

Bonnie, what can you tell us?

BONNIE SCHNEIDER, CNN METEOROLOGIST: The latest position statement Randi just came in right now, the center of circulation with Isaac is 95 miles east southeast of Guantanamo, Cuba. You saw where Martin was reporting. That's down here in the southern coast of Haiti. Look at the convection that's really hammering Haiti right now. There's a lot more to come. There's also a band of thunderstorms hitting south Florida at this hour. So even well in advance of the storm, we're going to start feeling the brutal impact of Isaac in Florida over the next 24 to 48 hours. That is why we have a hurricane warning now in effect for parts of south Florida, including the Florida Keys.

So you can see it does become a category one storm by the time we get to Sunday, possibly and possibly even into Monday, we'll be tracking it Tuesday into the Gulf of Mexico. When the storm comes over the warmer waters of the Gulf of Mexico, we can't rule out further intensification. But right now, that cone (ph) of uncertainty is showing the landfall somewhere along the Gulf coast, so a little bit further west than originally.

Remember that these patterns can shift. We're likely to see some fluctuations in the track as we go through the next few days. This is something we're monitoring very closely here in the CNN weather center. Keep in mind Randi with the hurricane warnings in place, it's time to make those preparations if you haven't already done them for yourself and for your family.

KAYE: Good advice, Bonnie, as always. Thank you.

SCHNEIDER: Sure.

KAYE: To politics now. The Republicans are getting closer to party time, of course talking about next week's Republican convention in Tampa, Florida. But today the focus is on Ohio. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are there today trying to get back on message after a tough week of distractions. We had that Todd Akin controversy over what he called legitimate rape and we also had that joke yesterday by Romney talking about birth certificates.

CNN political editor Paul Steinhauser is in Powell, Ohio, right now where Romney and Ryan will be speaking in just about an hour or so.

How important, Paul, is today's rally? PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN POLITICAL EDITOR: It's a big rally Randi, a little over an hour until they speak. This is the last time you're going to see Ryan and Romney together until Thursday night when Romney is nominated as the Republican presidential nominee at t the convention in Tampa. They want to get back on message, you're absolutely right. They want to talk about the economy and they want to criticize President Obama as they do that.

But you mentioned what happened yesterday in Michigan. And just now a few minutes ago in fact this plane right now is still flying above us, a plane with a sign that says, America is better than birthers. And so I guess you can say pretty crazy distractions still continue.

But Randi, listen, Ohio so important, battleground state, 18 electoral votes at stake. This is a state that Mitt Romney really wants to win if he can take the White House in November. This is his eighth trip here since April when he won the nomination. President Obama has been here seven times since April, Randi.

KAYE: Getting close, getting pretty tight there. Paul Steinhauser, thank you very much.

Be sure to stay with CNN for complete coverage of the Republican National Convention. Tomorrow we have a special look at Mitt Romney, followed by a preview of the convention and then on Monday night 7:00 p.m. Eastern the convention begins.

And here is what's coming up this hour.

It's supposed to represent the party, but for Mitt Romney is it a help or an inconvenience? All morning we're putting the Republican platform in focus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four or five people got shot in that corner. They were just stray bullets this hit them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: And new video from the scene of the Empire State building shooting. Now some are criticizing police for opening fire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Wondering why it's a big deal that the Republican convention is in Florida this year? Check out our CNN electoral map. In a tight presidential race, Florida there in yellow could go to Mitt Romney or President Obama and it is worth 29 electoral votes. That's big, more than other toss-up states like Colorado and Ohio combined. It also has a history of deciding elections. Yes, remember 2000? President Bush needed the sunshine state to win the election and President Obama also took Florida his last go-round.

Florida RNC Chairman Lenny Curry is joining us this morning, making time in his busy schedule. First, congratulations on the big week ahead, Lenny.

LENNY CURRY, CHAIRMAN, FLORIDA GOP: Good morning. Thanks. It's good to be with you.

KAYE: Of course you want Mitt Romney to take Florida. Will he and what will make the difference?

CURRY: It's going to be a close race. We've said that all along. I don't see either candidate pulling into a big lead. It's going to come down to the ground game, who can energize and turn out their base and then whichever candidate's message connects with the independents. I believe that we're going to do that. Mitt Romney and Republicans in Florida are going to do that.

KAYE: According to a new Quinnipiac University CBS News "New York Times" poll, the three most important issues to Florida voters are the economy, health care and Medicare. What specifically about these issues do you think will put Romney on top?

CURRY: Well, the economy, President Obama has failed us on the economy. He was elected on a message of hope and change. He controlled the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate and he did nothing to focus on job creation and turn the economy around. He in fact, focused on health care, unpopular, which resulted in a tax increase. If you look on the other hand what we're doing in Florida, Governor Scott and the Republican legislature have begun to turn the economy around here. We'd be in much better shape if we had some help out of Washington, DC and Floridians recognize that.

KAYE: I know you said that the president did nothing to help the economy, but if I can quote a Pew survey here, 56 percent majority including 44 percent of the Republicans now say that the auto bailout was mostly good for the economy. So what's your response to that?

CURRY: This is a slippery slope. At what point do, every time there's a problem do we rely on the government to throw more money at it, incur more debt, $15 trillion in debt right now, $5 trillion incurred since President Obama is in office. If we continue to hand out money to corporations or individuals, our children are going to be straddled with this. It's immoral and it's wrong. We're going to have to make that case.

KAYE: So in Florida the economy has seen somewhat of a pick up recently. Who is going to get the credit there, the Republicans or the Democrats?

CURRY: Governor Rick Scott and the Florida legislature. We're going to beat that message and beat that drum every day. The point is, we would be in much better shape if we had a partner in Washington, DC.

KAYE: You're saying Rick Scott, the governor there, should get all the credit for the state's economic boom? We've heard this before from other battleground states that have seen the economic turnaround, Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, that Obama has done nothing to help the economy and the Republican governor has. But is this really the case? Is it possible that this is the case in every instance?

CURRY: If you look at the four years preceding Governor Scott, we had the second highest increase in unemployment. We have the largest drop in unemployment since December of 2010. We'd be in even much better shape if we had someone, if we had Governor Romney in the White House right now.

KAYE: So why then, if the president's policies have done nothing or been so bad, why is Mitt Romney trailing in the Florida polls?

CURRY: It's very difficult to beat an incumbent. When people think about making a change, it's a risk. So right now they are evaluating the two candidates. Look, Governor Romney has a record of creating jobs. He did good things when he was at Bain Capital. He is a problem solver. We saw what he did with the Olympics in Salt Lake City. President Obama again, I want to remind folks. He had the House and the Senate for two years. He could have accomplished anything that he wanted to and he did not focus on job creation.

KAYE: The same Quinnipiac University CBS News "New York Times" poll that I mentioned earlier gives President Obama a 3 percent lead over Romney, though, with a sampling error of 2.8 percent. Do you think he can overcome that?

CURRY: Yes, it's the margin of error. It's going to be a ground game. We're going to connect and turn our voters out. They are going to try to do the same thing and then the I-4 corridor, we're going to have to take the message that we're the party of opportunity. We're the party that believes. When I was a child I believed that I could grow up and be anything, go anywhere that I wanted to be. Our culture is losing that. I believe that President Obama is contributing to losing that.

KAYE: What's going to happen between now and November that's going to change things? What have you not told voters, even independents about Mitt Romney that's going to turn things around?

CURRY: You're going to see -- when we get past Labor Day, you're going to see if people think their airwaves have been full of ads up to this point, it's going to be really crazy after Labor Day. So television advertising - Florida is a big state - we're knocking on doors, we're making phone calls, we're talking to voters. It's back to talking about -- the Republican party right now is a party of ideas, it's a party about vision, it's a party about opportunity. It's about regardless of your socioeconomic background, regardless of your ethnicity, each generation wants their children to get a good education and go on and be able to get a job and pursue their hopes and dreams and believe, again really believe they can be anything in the United States of America. That's our message.

KAYE: Do I hear you saying that despite where voters disagree with the Romney/Ryan ticket on social issues like gay marriage and abortion, that they will vote Republican only because of the issue of jobs?

CURRY: Jobs and debt. Look, we right now are on a fiscal cliff. President Obama said he was going to cut the deficit in half. He didn't do that. We have to fix the fiscal problems in this United States. We're straddling our children with debt. The social issues matter. They matter to me. They matter to a lot of people. People have very passionate opinions on them. But let's fix this economy. Let's make sure people can pursue their dreams, get a job, educate their kids and then we can fight these other battles.

KAYE: When the Congressional Budget Office came out and said that we are at risk of a recession because we're at risk of going over the fiscal cliff, Mitt Romney responded saying that was unacceptable. But what is his plan then? What would he do differently?

CURRY: One thing is he doesn't believe in the big nanny government state that throws dollars, that prints money and just throws dollars at every problem and incurs more debt. This is a simple -- anybody in a small business knows this. If you borrow without a plan to grow your revenue base, you're going to fail.

KAYE: So how will -- final question to you. How will the RNC do you think combat the boon in polls that we'll likely see after the DNC convention?

CURRY: It's going to come down. Both parties after the conventions and the boon in the polls, it's going to come down to the ground game, the blocking and the tackling, the energy and what I see on the ground right now, Mitt Romney/Ryan rallies that I've attended, Republicans are energized. They want to get out and make sure that we put a Republican in the White House.

And I believe again, our message is going to resonate with independents. I'm not a Republican because I think the Republican Party is perfect. I'm a Republican because I believe that we're the party that's closest to allowing people to pursue their hopes and dreams. While Republicans certainly made mistakes in years gone by where we spent too much money, we made mistakes. We got caught up in thats culture, this big government, big spending is an ideology for the Democratic Party. They are committed to it.

KAYE: Lenny Curry, as I said, I know you have a very busy schedule these days so thank you for your time. Appreciate it.

CURRY: Pleasure. Thank you.

KAYE: We've covered jobs, money and social issues. At 10:15 Eastern time, we'll go in focus on where each candidate stands on the war in Afghanistan where thousands of our troops are serving today.

A really cool home coming surprise on the battlefield. A staff sergeant returns from Afghanistan to surprise his unsuspecting mom. Wait until you see how creative he was and her reaction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: In an embarrassing and dangerous incident for Mexican Federales , police officers opened fire on a U.S. embassy vehicle yesterday just south of Mexico City, shooting and wounding two Americans.

Nick Valencia is here to tell us more about this. Let me understand what's happening here Nick.

You have these guys, they're in this marked car, right. So why did they open fire?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's the question everybody wants the answer to right now Randi. It's why did this happen? How could this happen in a clearly marked Toyota vehicle. They had the Toyota SUV with diplomatic plates. Mexican Federal Police intercept this vehicle. What we understand is that this U.S. embassy vehicle was leaving Mexico City yesterday morning for Cuernavaca, which is about 50 miles south of the capital when they were intercepted by Federal police who were in the area doing crime detail and mistook this car, if you can believe it, clearly marked car for criminal organization or elements of criminal enterprise.

KAYE: So should the U.S. vehicle have stopped?

VALENCIA: What you have to understand, Randi, there's precedent set here as well. There's been narco blockades. There's been missionaries attacked, Mormon missionaries attacked in northern Mexico. I'm sure you remember the ICE agents in (INAUDIBLE) but those who were attacked on that highway there. There was precedent set for this vehicle to be suspicious when these Federal police brandished their weapons, tried to maneuver around them. That's when we understand that this vehicle was attacked by the Federal police. Fortunately it wasn't a fatal mistake but you mentioned that embarrassing. It's a very embarrassing incident.

KAYE: And so somebody inside was able to radio for help.

VALENCIA: That's right. There was a captain from the Mexican Navy that was accompanying two Americans from the U.S. embassy. He radioed for help as soon as the attack was under way. If it wasn't for him radioing into that military installation that they were on their way to, who knows what would have happened.

KAYE: What are the Federales saying about it?

VALENCIA: As you can imagine, it's pretty embarrassing for them. They are not saying much. We tried repeatedly yesterday to get a hold of the Mexican Federal police spokesman; he's not saying much. But the Mexican Federal government did release a statement. They said that the Federal police involved in this incident, who participated in these events, they will appear before the public Federal prosecutor to establish the facts, where appropriate, to determine responsibilities if there's going to be prosecution at all against these Federal police.

KAYE: Is the State Department weighing in at all in a case like this?

VALENCIA: We talked to them on background, on deep background yesterday and they said this is going to unfold and all signs point to nothing sinister here. This is just a mistake on the part of the Federal police. It's just another black eye. Earlier this summer in late June, Federal police opened fire against each other in the Mexico City airport. KAYE: Right in the airport.

VALENCIA: Right in -- Latin America's busiest airport in Mexico City. This is just another incident, already strained diplomatic relations between the United States and Mexico. This further strains, that makes a delicate situation all the more delicate.

KAYE: Luckily everyone did survive this one. Nick Valencia, thank you for the update.

Should the U.S. Justice Department investigate the shooting of an Arkansas man who was handcuffed in the back seat of a police car? That is what the Reverend Jesse Jackson is calling for. We're examining the legal aspects of this case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Welcome back everyone. I'm Randi Kaye, 32 minutes past the hour. I'm so glad you're starting your day with us.

A shoot-out on the streets of New York City leaves two people dead, including a gunman who has been described as a disgruntled former apparel designer. 58-year-old Jeffrey Johnson shot and killed a former co-worker before engaging in a gun battle with police.

Officers returned fire killing Johnson and injuring some bystanders who were hit by bullets. An investigation is under way.

To Florida now where the countdown is on to the Republican National Convention, 50,000 people expected to descend on Tampa for four days of speeches, rallies and, of course, parties. It all leads up to the formal nomination for Mitt Romney for President on Thursday night.

Apple has won a major victory in federal court, the jury hearing the copyright infringement case ruled that Samsung has to pay Apple more than $1 billion in damages. They said Samsung wilfully violated Apple's patents in developing their own mobile product. Samsung says it will appeal.

We'll have much more on this story in just a little bit.

Now to the controversial shooting of a handcuffed man in Arkansas, 21- year-old Chavis Carter was shot in the head in the back seat of a police car last month. Police say he committed suicide. His family contends police are responsible for his death.

Jonesboro police say Carter's girlfriend told them she received a call from Carter saying he had a gun and was scared and also say that phone records show Carter made at least one call from the back of that patrol car.

The medical examiner has ruled the incident a suicide stating, quote, "At the time of the discharge the muzzle of the gun was placed against the right temporal scalp."

Now, take a look at this re-enactment video released by police illustrating such a scenario. We have shown this to you before but it is definitely worth showing to you again. Here police are trying to prove how easy it is for someone flexible enough to fire a weapon while handcuffed from behind and seated. You can see he pulls it out there from behind him in the back of that patrol car. The Reverend Jesse Jackson is calling for the Justice Department to investigate the shooting and Carter's family is disturbed investigators have not conducted a gun residue test on anyone at the scene.

A lot to process here so let's talk about it with CNN legal contributor, Paul Callan. Paul, good morning.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Good morning, Randi.

KAYE: Why didn't anyone test for gun residue at the scene? I mean what is the consequence of not doing so?

CALLAN: It's a glaring omission I think in terms of the ability to properly investigate the crime. Obviously you want to know if there was gunshot residue on Chavis Carter's hands. Did he have the gun in his hand when the shot was fired or were the police officers -- did they have gunshot residue on their hands?

Now, Jonesboro police have said they -- there was a policy memo that they were in compliance with -- I have not seen this memo but I'm somewhat mystified as to why you would not test for it. It's an important element in most investigations.

KAYE: Yes. It seems like that's sort of police work 101.

CALLAN: Yes.

KAYE: The girlfriend's account though of the phone call and the gun, telling police that Carter was scared. Does that speak to his state of mind do you think and make the case that he was possibly so scared that he killed himself?

CALLAN: Well, it's always hard to say that somebody is actually going to kill themselves you know on the basis of something they say on the phone. But this is what we know, based on the autopsy and the telephone call. Arkansas police say that he had drugs in his system. He had amphetamines in his system, marijuana and benzodiazepines in his system, enough to affect his behavior.

The girlfriend indicates that a call was made and that he indicated that he was afraid. So we have those two things. And of course, you know, the autopsy makes some findings that the police will think are very helpful to their position.

KAYE: Do you think the U.S. Justice Department should conduct an independent investigation to avoid any appearance of -- of any wrongdoing here?

CALLAN: I frankly don't see the basis for a federal investigation here and I know the Reverend Jackson has called for one. However, the autopsy in the case shows powder burns, what they described as a dense soot deposition on the right temple area of Chavis Carter's head. That would be consistent with a self-inflicted gunshot wounds.

It also there's a little thing in the autopsy also, he red marks high up on his right arm. Now if you remember that video we look at, the handcuffs ride up when you're trying to get that gun up to the right temple. Now that finding would be consistent with a self-inflicted wound.

And of course the third thing, Randi and I know you've been following this case very closely, I know you actually you went down to Arkansas and spoke to many of the witnesses. The thing that I was impressed by was there was an African-American woman who said that both officers were outside of the vehicle and it appear that the doors and windows were closed in the police vehicle --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Right.

CALLAN: -- when she heard a pop.

Now, if that's the case, I just don't see it as a civil rights case or as a federal case. I think it's a difficult, horrible situation for the family. But the evidence seems to be pointing to suicide at this point.

KAYE: Yes you know a lot of people, as we've been covering this, a lot of people have been wondering and tweeting me about a civil suit. Do you think that the family would file a civil suit in this case? I mean, what would that look like?

CALLAN: They probably will take a shot at a civil suit. But the basis of the civil suit would be that the police had an obligation to protect Chavis Carter and they didn't protect him.

But are you going to win a case like that? Because you know they are going to be saying to a jury, they're going to be saying, you know, they had an obligation to protect him from himself because it was his own gun that they will allege that he shot himself with.

So can the police be sued when the bad guy kills himself with his own gun? You can make that theory but I wouldn't give it much of a chance with an Arkansas jury. And you know one other thing. In doing some research on this the Department of Justice did an extensive study, a three year study of deaths in police custody.

And it showed there were a lot of deaths in police custody over a three year period, over 2000 in fact. But of those deaths, approximately 12 percent were suicides.

So this does happen and it's statistically been demonstrated in the past. So as tragic as it is for the family and all concerned, there is a history of this sort of thing in the past.

KAYE: Yes as the chief told me when I went down there, it's incredibly easy to maneuver those handcuffs he said. So Paul Callan --

CALLAN: Yes I was skeptical --

KAYE: You were skeptical.

CALLAN: Yes, OK, I was skeptical when I saw those -- well, that video. I thought it was -- you know but now that the autopsy is in, I'm a lot less skeptical than I was, Randi.

KAYE: Yes.

CALLAN: Yes.

KAYE: Well Paul, do us a favor. Stay right there. Because when we come back, I want to talk to you about the famous cyclist Lance Armstrong, charges of illegal doping and the legal case that he is choosing not to fight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: He is a seven time Tour de France super star cyclist. But Lance Armstrong could lose all seven titles. He's already been slapped with a lifetime ban from cycling competition over charges of illegal doping. The question is whether he will also be stripped of all his Tour de France titles and his championship legacy.

CNN legal contributor Paul Callan is back with us again. Paul does the anti doping agency actually have the power to take away all seven titles?

CALLAN: Well, this is such a complicated area. You know it actually it reminds me of boxing in the old days. You know there are all of these agencies, when you try to figure out who is the heavyweight champion of the world is? Who's certified by the right agency?

It's kind of a similar thing in cycling. There's an international cycling agency, there's a U.S. cycling agency and there is this a U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, which is the subject of our discussion today.

And Lance Armstrong has said they don't have jurisdiction over him. They don't even have the right to hear this case and that their findings will not be recognized on a worldwide level. That's essentially his position.

And of course the agency, which is a federal agency, a quasi federal agency differs very strongly.

KAYE: Armstrong, of course, has consistently denied allegations of illegal doping we should point out, but has decided to stop battling the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency after losing his legal bid to stop the probe saying he just didn't think it was a fair setting, to make his case calling the process quote, "one-sided". Does this imply guilt?

CALLAN: It does in the sense that if you -- I mean, if you thought you were going to get into court and win, why wouldn't you go into court and win. Now he went to a Texas judge, Judge Sparks, a federal judge, with a very confident lawyer representing him. And they tried to convince the federal judge to dismiss the case saying "The U.S. Anti- Doping Agency has no jurisdiction here." And the judge was highly critical of Armstrong's complaints saying it was nothing but a glorified press release.

But in fairness, he also -- the judge was highly critical of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency saying what are they doing investigating allegations that are 14 years old in some cases. The statute of limitations only goes back eight years.

But in the end the judge said, you know something, Armstrong agreed to be governed by an arbitration procedure of this organization and he has an obligation to go through the arbitration. And Armstrong has responded to that by walking away saying --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Yes.

CALLAN: -- you know something I'm not going to submit my evidence. This is a kangaroo court they've made up their mind, I'm just walking away from it. So --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Yes.

CALLAN: Does it imply guilt? I -- a lot of people would say yes it does. Others would say he's just had enough. So it depends where you stand on Lance Armstrong.

KAYE: He has said though that he's taken something like 500 or 600 tests and all of them were clean. So from a legal standpoint, I mean doesn't that mean something?

CALLAN: Well, he has made that claim. However, the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency says that they examined as part of their investigation a number of blood samples taken from him in recent years which they describe as -- and watch the wording here -- they say not inconsistent with doping.

They don't say that they actually found chemicals that were indicative that something was in his blood stream but that the results were consistent with the use of doping drugs. Now this would have to do with how many red cells are present in the blood.

So they would disagree with his conclusion he tested negative on all these occasions. They also said they have testimony from fellow riders who say that he did dope himself.

But Armstrong says, you know what, these are secret witnesses. They were given immunity for their testimony. It's an unfair procedure. You can't trust it. That's what he and his lawyers say.

KAYE: What about his legacy some what happens to that?

CALLAN: I think his legacy will be seriously damaged by this. You know, if you look, for instance, what happened to Barry Bonds in baseball and Mark Maguire, you know, all of these athletes who have faced serious claims of the use of illegal banned drugs have really sustained extreme damage to their long-term reputation. So, you know, unless he fights and wins in court, I think his reputation has really, really been hurt.

I mean look at Roger Clemens as an example, as a difference. A lot of people said he was crazy to fight the case against him. It was a very, very strong case against him. And you know something, he fought and in the end he was exonerated. So I think he saved a little bit of his legacy.

But it's going to be hard for Lance Armstrong to save his given what's going on.

KAYE: Paul Callan, thank you for your time on two very important and interesting topics this morning. Appreciate it.

CALLAN: Thank you, Randi.

KAYE: A veteran New York police officers looks at yesterday's shooting outside the Empire State Building and how police handled the situation amid all the chaos.

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KAYE: The man suspected of killing his former co-worker was killed in a shoot-out with police yesterday. And New York police officers and others are praising the police for their quick response.

Joining us now from New York -- retired police officer and security director Lou Palumbo. Lou, good morning. Let's talk about how police handled this. Several people injured by shrapnel in the shoot-out. What else could police have done. Did they follow proper procedure here?

LOU PALUMBO, RETIRED POLICE OFFICER: Absolutely. They were procedurally sound. What they stumbled upon as a result of being alerted by a construction worker was what we call an active shooter. And in this type scenario, you don't really have any option but to engage them.

I think the difficult part right now that the public is dealing is this notion of collateral damage. We have been traditionally lucky in New York in particular with not having too many issues involving collateral damage. This one, as we now know, a number people might have been injured as a result of some of the errant shots that were fired by this law enforcement agency, New York City police.

A few weeks ago we had an incident where there was an individual -- homeless man with a knife that was fired at 46 times. In the interview I did with Anderson Cooper, one of the things I pointed out, every time you discharge a weapon in the course of your duty, you have to account for where those bullets are going. So, you know, they absolutely were procedurally sound. They had no choice but to engage him. Unfortunately we had collateral damage.

KAYE: Is lethal force, I mean is that the only way? I mean how do you make that decision in such a chaotic moment?

PALUMBO: Well, really, what we're talking about is spontaneity. That's what they were handed. They came into the situation spontaneously. They had to assess what they had. They realized immediately that he was armed with a deadly weapon and their life was in imminent danger and so were the lives of other people in their proximity. And that's the justification for the use of deadly physical force per the penal law in the state of New York. So they were clearly within their right to use deadly force as per the law being written.

KAYE: What about a taser in a situation like that?

PALUMBO: Taser, you know, honestly, there's an expression, I don't mean to be cute about this. They say never bring a knife to a gunfight. A taser is not an appropriate means of response to someone who is armed with a .45 caliber semiautomatic pistol. A taser is used for someone who might be emotionally disturbed or an individual who is rowdy but unarmed.

This individual had a .45 caliber pistol. He could have gone through reflex reaction if you tasered him, still discharging the weapon. The taser sounds like it might have been a remedy but in reality it wasn't.

And the reality of the situation is the New York City Police Department does not arm police officers with tasers, only the supervisor. You would have had to have a supervisor on scene at the moment they engaged this active shooter, which they did not have. This happened very, very quickly. These police officers responded, I'm going to say, as close to text book as you possibly could.

And considering all of the denominators of that morning, the fact that no one else was killed, we're just lucky. The rest of it we're going to sort out through the courts probably because I'm sure there will be litigations as a result of these injuries sustained as a result of collateral damage.

KAYE: Could they have just shot once to take him down and maybe not opened fire as they did?

PALUMBO: You know, Randi, that's another interesting discussion. You know people will come out and say why didn't you shoot him in the leg? Why didn't you shoot him in the arm? To be very candid with you, with the amount of stress and tension that falls upon you and in this instance, spontaneously, you're lucky you hit him at all.

As we're finding out, they fired approximately 16 shots. Seven of them struck him, which is actually a fairly high ration because the hit ratio at one time was one strike for every 15 rounds fired. People have to realize these are young men and women. They have children, families, mothers and fathers. They are trying to go home. There's an immense amount of pressure on you as you're involved in these situations. The spontaneity of the situation, they performed -- I have to tell you, I've been around this community -- I've been a law enforcement agent. I've been in this community 39 years.

These two young men, these two people reacted as perfectly, in my opinion, as they possibly could have.

KAYE: Lou Palumbo, always nice to have you on the program. Thank you.

PALUMBO: Thank you.

KAYE: Apple wins a major victory over Samsung in federal court. Next a look at why a jury ruled in Apple's favor.

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KAYE: Welcome back.

Apple is applauding a federal jury's decision on a major copyright case. They may not be content with just a billion dollars they're getting in damages. Our Dan Simon has more.

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DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The jury of seven men and two women sided with Apple on almost all of its claims, certainly the most important ones. It found that Samsung essentially copied the iPhone from its iconic design to its unique software features. Samsung is now ordered to pay Apple more than a billion dollars, that's less from the $2.7 that it wanted.

For Apple, the most valuable company in the world, this was more about sending a message that it will do anything to protect innovation. The immediate impact isn't yet clear. Apple wants Samsung's infringed products removed from stores. In a statement Samsung wrote, "Today's verdict should not be viewed as a win for Apple but as a loss for the American consumer. It will lead to fewer choices, less innovation and potentially higher prices" -- signaling that indeed certain products will, in fact, be removed from American stores."

As for Apple, it says, quote, "We applaud the court for finding Samsung's behavior wilful and for sending a loud and clear message that stealing isn't right."

If there was one bright spot for Samsung, the jury found that didn't copy the iPad for its own competing products but Samsung will likely appeal this verdict. Some of the same issues will be fought in courtrooms and tribunals all over the world.

Dan Simon, CNN, San Jose, California.

KAYE: And we want to let you know that we're keeping an eye on the Mitt Romney/Paul Ryan rally under way in Howell, Ohio. We have our post Steinhauser there as well; will check in with him at some point to see how this is going. This the eighth trip for mitt Romney to Ohio, very important state, very important swing state. We'll keep an eye on that.

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