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State of the Union

The Last Word: Congressman Patrick Murphy

Aired July 12, 2009 - 12:00   ET


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: We'd like to welcome our international viewers to our "State of the Union" report this Sunday, July 12th. I'm Wolf Blitzer in for John King.

President Obama wants Congress to deliver a health care reform bill for him to sign this year. But a key question remains, can the United States afford to implement ambitious and expensive changes with an ailing economy? The Health Secretary Kathleen Sebelius is here to lay out the Obama administration's case.

The grilling begins tomorrow for Judge Sonia Sotomayor. What can the Supreme Court nominee expect from the Senate Judiciary Committee, and then the full Senate? Four key senators are here to preview her confirmation hearings, weigh in on the health care debate and talk about whether there's a need for a second economic stimulus.

And he's pushing a new plan to try to get gays and lesbians to be able to serve openly in the United States military. Democratic Congressman Patrick Murphy of Pennsylvania.

(AUDIO GAP) to deliver a health care reform bill for him to sign this year. But a key question remains, can the United States afford to implement ambitious and expensive changes within an ailing economy?

The health secretary, Kathleen Sebelius, is here to lay out the Obama administration's case.

The grilling begins tomorrow for Judge Sonia Sotomayor. What can the Supreme Court nominee expect from the Senate Judiciary Committee, and then the full Senate? Four key senators are here to preview her confirmation hearings, weigh in on the health care reform debate, and talk about whether there's a need for another economic stimulus package.

And he's pushing a new plan to try to get gays and lesbians to be able to serve openly in the United States military. Democratic Congressman Patrick Murphy of Pennsylvania gets "The Last Word."

That's all ahead in this hour of STATE OF THE UNION.

A beautiful Sunday here in the nation's capital, up on the other end of Pennsylvania, Capitol Hill, the U.S. Congress, where they're debating health care reform. While President Obama spent the past week overseas tending to global matters, his administration pressed ahead with its effort to revamp the U.S. health care system. The vice president, Joe Biden, announced a new agreement with the hospital industry to help pay for reforms, but there are still major issues to resolve, including whether to tax health care benefits in order to finance a final reform plan. Here to outline the Obama administration's view is the health and human services secretary, Kathleen Sebelius.

BLITZER: Madam Secretary, thanks very much for joining us.

SEBELIUS: Great to be with you.

BLITZER: How are you going to pay for $1 trillion, if not more, for this health care reform over 10 years?

SEBELIUS: Well, President Obama has outlined his preferred payment plans, about $660 billion in savings out of the existing system. So money that's already in the system that's not making us healthier and going to procedures and practices that work very well.

And about $330 billion in a proposal that would cap the itemized deductions that the wealthiest Americans take. Return them to the level where they were in President Reagan's days. The House and the Senate have slightly different variations, a lot of the same savings and they're looking at different funding...

BLITZER: Because the House version that Charlie Rangel, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, announced on Friday would tax the wealthiest Americans, additional tax to help pay for the hundreds of billions of dollars that would still be needed; if you make more than $300,000 a year or $400,000 a year, and make more than $1 million, you're going to be paying a lot more taxes in the years to come.

SEBELIUS: Well, the House has a version, there are a couple of different proposals being worked on in the Senate. BLITZER: You like the House version?

SEBELIUS: I think that it's one of the ideas that will be discussed in the long run. I prefer the president's version, I think it makes good sense that, again, the wealthiest Americans pay...

BLITZER: But you're open to the version of increasing taxes on richest -- the richest Americans to pay for health care for everyone else?

SEBELIUS: Well, I think the bottom line is, it has got to be paid for. And we all have a shared responsibility that we all need to play a role. The House and Senate version also have employers included, and individuals included.

And what has been remarkable, Wolf, is the stakeholders who, in the early '90s, were the most vocal opponents of anything changing in the health care system are really at the table with their own suggestions of how to pay for...

BLITZER: Well, just to be precise, you're open to Charlie Rangel's proposal.

SEBELIUS: Well, I think everything is on the table and discussions are under way.

BLITZER: Are you also open to taxing health care benefits that employers provide their workers?

SEBELIUS: Well, I think, again, the president has made it pretty clear from the beginning, certainly during the course of the campaign and since then that that proposal may well dismantle the current employer-based system.

He has always suggested that we want to build on the current system, 180 million people have insurance provided by employers. What we don't want to do is discourage employers from offering coverage.

BLITZER: But this is what he said back when he was a candidate in September of 2008. I'm going to play this little clip.



BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THEN-CANDIDATE: Everyone in America, everyone, will pay lower taxes than they paid in the 1990s under Bill Clinton at a time when the economy was growing and we produced 22 million new jobs.


BLITZER: All right, so just to be precise, you're rejecting a proposal to tax health care benefits that employees get from their employers?

SEBELIUS: Again, Wolf, the House and Senate are busily at work and I think the president continues to reemphasize that he has opposed the notion that we would tax health care benefits, continues to think that is not the best strategy to go forward.

If at the end of the day that's the chosen way, I mean, the House clearly doesn't have it in, the HELP Committee doesn't have taxing benefits as part of the proposal. We're waiting to see what Finance comes up with. But he continues to work with the Finance Committee saying this is not the preferred strategy.

BLITZER: Not the preferred, but it's not necessarily completely being ruled out?

SEBELIUS: Well, no lines in the sand at this point. The most important thing is a health care reform bill passed this year, comprehensive reform because we can't afford to pay what we're paying right now. We're paying twice as much as any nation on earth, living sicker, dying younger, and that isn't good for any American.

BLITZER: Will the president accept health care reform that does not include a public option? In other words, public government-run health insurance companies competing with the private health insurance companies?

SEBELIUS: Again, he has said consistently and very strongly a public option is one of the strategies that will help lower costs, provide some competition for private insurers, and make sure that consumers in many parts of the country have a choice. Absent that, you won't have cost competition and you won't have choice. BLITZER: So be precise, is the president going to reject any -- if the House and Senate says, you know what, we can do this with co- ops, we can do this with other ways, but there's not going to be a public government-run health insurance system, is the president going to accept this?

SEBELIUS: Well, I think you're going to hear from senators in a little while about a variety of strategies to get to a public option. There isn't one size fits all. So he -- I think, the president has said we can have competition -- the issues are competition and choice and how you bring that into the private marketplace. There probably are a variety of strategies, all of which are on the table.

The good news is that Congress is hard at work. We've got Republican senators working day in and day out with Democratic senators trying to figure out how to make sure reform happens this year. And they're working really hard.

BLITZER: When is the president going to say, you know what, enough, the House and the Senate, they have got their own versions, I'm going to come up with a Barack Obama version that I want you guys to pass?

SEBELIUS: Well, everybody assumed that I had the 1,000-page plan in my purse as I traveled through the Senate for my pre-confirmation hearings. What the president understands is that this package of legislation, this very comprehensive bill needs to be a bipartisan approach. It needs to be owned by the House and the Senate with lots of input from the administration.

That's exactly what's going on now. Progress is happening day in and day out, people are at the table, Senator Grassley is working hard with Senator Baucus and Senator Conrad and others.

I think we're going to have a bipartisan bill with not only votes from Republicans and Democrats, but lots of ideas from Republicans and Democrats to reform the health care system.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the swine flu. You're getting ready to...


BLITZER: Flu season is going to be starting in the fall here in the Northern Hemisphere. It's going pretty wild right now in the Southern Hemisphere. Will there be a vaccine that will be ready when the flu season starts in the United States?

SEBELIUS: By mid-October, we will have a vaccination ready. When exactly the flu season starts, we can't predict, but... BLITZER: Because millions of people, potentially, are at risk in the United States.

SEBELIUS: Well, we have about a million cases of H1N1 right now in the United...

BLITZER: Around the world?

SEBELIUS: No, in the United States right now.

BLITZER: In the United States alone?

SEBELIUS: Yes. And 102 countries are seeing presentations of this disease. The good news is that it's not terribly lethal right now. We've had about 170 deaths, that's too many, but we know 36,000 people die every year with seasonal flu.

So we're watching Southern Hemisphere, no vaccine, H1N1 mixing with flu right now. We'll know a lot more as we move toward the fall, but we are preparing to keep Americans safe and secure.

BLITZER: Give us a preview of the announcement you're going to make tomorrow on vaccines.

SEBELIUS: Well, there will be another billion dollars worth of orders placed to get the bulk ingredients for an H1N1 vaccination. Congress has agreed with the president that this is the number one priority, keeping Americans safe and secure.

BLITZER: Madam Secretary, thanks very much for coming in, good luck.

SEBELIUS: Thank you, great to see you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

President Obama even sees a health care bill -- says he wants to see a health care bill on his desk by the end of this year. Lawmakers on Capitol Hill have to agree on what goes into it. Up next, four key U.S. senators break down what needs to be done to reach a bipartisan agreement.

Also, Anderson Cooper's exclusive interview with President Obama in Africa. It's a remarkable interview from the exact location where millions of Africans were sold into slavery. You're going to see it right here on "State of the Union."


BLITZER: Well, we just heard the Obama administration's view of health care reform, now let's turn to four U.S. senators who are playing a key role in crafting a plan. In his home state of New Hampshire, Republican Judd Gregg. And from her home state of Michigan, Democratic Senator Debbie Stabenow. Here with me in Washington, Republican Lamar Alexander of Tennessee, and Democrat Kent Conrad of North Dakota. Senator Conrad, let me start with you. You just heard Kathleen Sebelius, the secretary of Health and Human Services say the Obama White House is open to this House proposal that Charlie Rangel, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee has put forward to put additional taxes on the richest American families to pay for health care reform for everybody else who doesn't have it yet. Is that a good idea?

CONRAD: Look, everything does have to be on the table. You can't negotiate properly without that rule in place. But I don't think the House proposal as I've heard it will be what's part of the final package. I think there may be some request from those of us who at the highest levels of income this country to pay a bit more. But there will be a much broader package of revenue as well as spending reductions in order to make this package work.

BLITZER: Yeah, are you open to the House version to consider a tax on people making more than let's say $250,000 or $300,000 or $350,000 a year at 1 percent or 2 percent additional tax on their gross income to pay for health care reform?

ALEXANDER: That's a bad idea, Wolf. What is on the table seems to be taxes like that more state taxes to support Medicaid, more cuts in Medicare, more employer taxes. What should be on the table and more government programs. What should be on the table are more proposals like the one Senator Gregg has made or Senator Burr, Senator Coburn. There are 14 of us, Democrats and Republicans, who support the Wyden-Bennett plan, and that would give every American dollars with which to buy their own health insurance and could be done without adding a penny to the debt.

BLITZER: You want to tax benefits, health care benefits that employers provide to their employees as income?

ALEXANDER: I'm willing to stop giving tax deductions to people for Cadillac health insurance plans in order to give everybody a chance to buy their own health care insurance and not add a penny to the debt. I think that would be a good way.

BLITZER: No matter what their income.

ALEXANDER: No matter --

BLITZER: No matter what the income?

ALEXANDER: What it means is if we've got a Cadillac insurance plan and your employer gives you that, then some of it's going to be taxed. That money will be used to make sure we do -- we can't keep adding to the debt in the way we are.

BLITZER: Senator Stabenow, is that OK with you?

STABENOW: Well, Wolf, I think realistically, the one thing that is off the table is taxing employee benefits. I think we'll see some other combination of things. But employees don't determine what insurance companies are going to charge them for their health care for their family. And I think that's pretty much off the table. What's most important --

BLITZER: Senator Alexander says it should be on the table.

STABENOW: Well that may be his view. I respect that. But it is not I believe the majority opinion. But I think what's also very important in this discussion is that over half of the cost of reforming and changing the health care system is going to come with greater efficiencies, it's going to come with changing from quantity of tests to paying for quality, paying for health care not sick care.

BLITZER: But hundreds of billions of dollars, Senator Stabenow, are still going to be required and that money according to President Obama, he wants a deficit neutral plan, doesn't want the taxpayers to be burdened with additional costs. That's going to have to come from somewhere, and that's what I hear you saying is you don't want it to come from taxing health insurance benefits. Let me ask Senator Gregg what he thinks.

STABENOW: That's correct.

GREGG: What do I think about that issue? Well, I think the UAW is calling the shots there, and that's why it's not on the table because they've got some very high-end health policies, and they don't want them to, their union members to have to reduce those health policies.

Why don't we look at trying to control the rate of spending by looking at better quality delivery systems, which are more affordable? We've got a lot of excellent studies that tell us you can deliver a lot better health care at a lot less cost if you give people incentives to go out and buy health care intelligently, if you give the employers capacity to reward people for purchasing health care intelligently and giving up lifestyles which are basically counterproductive such as smoking.

BLITZER: Quickly, Senator Gregg, would you support, could you see yourself voting in favor of health care reform legislation that includes this public option, a public government-run insurance company to compete with the private insurance companies like Blue Cross and Blue Shield or United Health Care or some of these others?

GREGG: No. We do not want to go down the road that basically undermines our fundamental health care delivery by creating a state- run government system in this country and that's what a public plan is, it's a stocking horse for a single payer system.

BLITZER: Because Senator Conrad, you're not convinced that a public option would necessarily pass, that's why you've come up with your own compromise version of co-ops. Having these co-ops that wouldn't necessarily be completely public or private, it would be somewhere in the middle. You think that's passive?

CONRAD: I do. And really just to be clear, the cooperative plan is something that we see across many business lines in the country, very successful. The "Associated Press" is a co-op, we've got Ace Hardware as a co-op, Land O'Lakes, a $9 billion entity is a co-op. The beauty of it is that it does provide competition for insurance companies. But it is not government-run, government-controlled, it's membership-run, membership-controlled.

BLITZER: Could you support that Senator Alexander, the cooperatives?

ALEXANDER: Well, it all depends. I mean, Blue Cross could probably fit under his definition of a co-op. The problem with a government-run plan would be something like this. Say the president said let's buy the rest of General Motors to keep the Ford Motor Company honest. And that wouldn't matter unless he gave the government car some advantage.

So he might say, well, all your repairs are going to be at a very low cost, but all of the mechanics might say, we're not going to -- we're not going to work on the government car. That's what you have with a government plan today with Medicaid, 40 percent of the doctors won't serve Medicaid patients because of the low service and it's the only option --

BLITZER: I want to ask Senator Stabenow, I'll rephrase the question for Senator Stabenow. Could you support health care reform that does not include a public option?

STABENOW: Well, my first choice and very strong choice is a public option. And I have to say, Wolf, that what my friends are saying, Senator Gregg and Senator Alexander really are scare tactics that have been put forward by folks that don't want to change the system because they make a lot of money off the current system right now.

BLITZER: Very quickly, all four of you, if you can give me a yes or no answer, I'm going to play a clip of what the president of the United States said in an exchange with a reporter in Italy on Friday. And I want your answer, listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it a pretty much a do or die by the August recess?

OBAMA: I never believe anything is a do or die. But I really want to get it done by the August recess.


BLITZER: Will there be legislation on the president's desk, Senator Gregg, by the August recess?

GREGG: On health care, I think that's highly unlikely since the Finance Committee doesn't even have a bill drafted yet. And we're in the middle of the Sotomayor hearings for this week and then we're going to be debating her nomination for a week before we adjourn for the August recess.

BLITZER: Let me ask the chairman. What do you think? CONRAD: I think we'll be through the Finance Committee by the August recess and I think that's a realistic goal. You know, there really is plenty of time. Congress is going to be in session until Christmas Eve.

BLITZER: What do you think?

ALEXANDER: No, there's no reason to rush. We need to get it right, not add debt, not have a Washington takeover.

BLITZER: Is the president going to be disappointed, Senator Stabenow?

STABENOW: Well, I think he's going to be very pleased with the progress we're making. I believe we're going to move this through the Finance Committee. We're going to get it done as quickly as possible. The most important thing is to get it right. The American people have waited for a long time.

BLITZER: I want all of you to stand by because we have a lot more to discuss. We're coming back with the senators. Also, word that the CIA withheld information about a secret counter-terrorism program from Congress on direct orders from then Vice President Dick Cheney.

Plus, we'll bring you Anderson Cooper's exclusive interview with President Obama recorded only hours before the president left Africa. It's a remarkable interview done in the Gulf Coast castle. That was a prison where Africans were held before being sold into slavery. You're going to want to see it and hear it right here on "State of the Union."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: We're back with four U.S. senators, Republican Judd Gregg and Democrat Debbie Stabenow. And here in Washington, Republican Lamar Alexander and Democrat Kent Conrad.

Senator Alexander, the stories in the "New York Times," we've confirmed it that the former Vice President Dick Cheney over nearly eight years told the CIA on one very sensitive piece of intelligence, and we don't know what that piece of intelligence is, do not share that information with the U.S. House of Representatives or the Senate. Is that appropriate?

ALEXANDER: Well, let's -- we don't know whether it was appropriate. The CIA is in the secrecy business. And what I hear from the Democratic members of Congress is they want the CIA to tell more of them what's going on. The best way to ruin a secrecy business is to tell --

BLITZER: Even if you just tell the leaders, if you tell eight leaders, four in the House and four in the Senate, the majority leader, the minority leader, and the chairman and the ranking member of the two intelligence committees.

ALEXANDER: That is appropriate. BLITZER: Because that's the tradition, you tell the eight or so- called gang of eight.

ALEXANDER: But what I'm hearing from the Democratic members of the House is tell us all, tell more of us about it. If the eight leaders think what Vice President Cheney did was inappropriate, they should sit down with the new president and the new CIA director and say we'd like to know more. That's the way to fix that problem. I have no way of knowing -- nor do or anybody else.

BLITZER: No because presumably, Senator Conrad, even these eight leaders who traditionally are informed I think of almost everything, they were told by the vice president if you believe this story, don't even tell them about this program.

CONRAD: That's a serious breach. Look, you can't gloss over it. It has nothing to do with what the House is asking going forward. This is a question of whether something was not given the elected leaders of the Congress, which is required by law. That's a serious matter.

BLITZER: If the current vice president, Senator Gregg, told the CIA, you know what, there's a really sensitive program, I don't want you to tell these eight leaders of the House and Senate what's going on, would that be appropriate?

GREGG: No. But let's -- there's no question that's not appropriate. But the problem here is different than that in my opinion. This continued attack on the CIA and our intelligence gathering organizations is undermining the morale and the capacity of those organizations to gather intelligence. The war we're in today is a war of intelligence. The only way we're going to stop a terrorist from using a weapon of mass destruction on us is to find out who that terrorist is and what they have before they attack us. The only way we're going to get that information is through intelligence gathering. We have to have an extraordinarily robust and strong CIA, an extraordinarily and robust intelligence gathering organization. And this national attempt by some of our colleagues on the other side of the aisle to basically undermine the capacity to protect and develop intelligence is, I think, going to harm us in the long run. (CROSSTALK) GREGG: Yes, this is wrong. If somebody told the CIA not to inform the appropriate members of Congress on information they should be informed on, that's wrong, but that isn't -- that isn't reason to disassemble the CIA and make them a whipping child in the middle of the public opinion, which undermines the morality of the whole agency. BLITZER: Senator Gregg, no one wants dismantle the CIA, at least no one in a serious position. But if the former vice president, Dick Cheney -- and I want to pin you down on this -- if he did tell the CIA, "Don't share this information with the House and the Senate -- if he did say that, would he have been wrong? GREGG: Yes, if that information was correctly -- it should have been shared. I mean, I don't know what the information was; you don't know what it was. And there are instances, I presume, where something is so sensitive that it can't be released. But as a very practical matter, if it should have been shared, it should have been shared. BLITZER: Because I went back and looked back at the legislation, at the law, of the 1947 law, Senator Stabenow, and it does leave a loophole there for the executive branch of the U.S. government not to share certain intelligence information with the legislative branch of the U.S. government. It says that the congressional intelligence committees should be fully and currently informed of all intelligence activities, but it does say this, "to the extent consistent with due regard for the protection from unauthorized disclosure of classified information relating to sensitive intelligence, sources, and methods or other exceptionally sensitive matters." So, presumably, the former vice president could have determined this was such an exceptionally sensitive matter, it would fall into that loophole. STABENOW: Well, I would be extremely surprised if that was the case, Wolf. I think the person who's been undermining the credibility of the CIA is the former vice president, by his actions, if, in fact, this is true. BLITZER: Very quickly. CONRAD: ... just make this point? Look, I've had close relatives in the CIA. I've got profound respect for what they do. Senator Gregg is entirely correct. We absolutely are in a war of intelligence. It's critically important we're the best at it. But this story in the "New York Times" has nothing to do with an attack on the CIA. This is a question of whether the former vice president of the United States denied certain sensitive information to the intelligence leaders in Congress. That is not acceptable.

BLITZER: Well, I'm sure there's going to be a lot more on this coming up, but I want to thank all four of the senators for joining us here on "State of the Union." Thanks so much.


BLITZER: Thank you. And President Obama's back home from an overseas trip, including a visit to Ghana. CNN's Anderson Cooper was in the African nation and spoke with the president. We're going to bring you some of Anderson's exclusive interview. That's ahead on "State of the Union."


BLITZER: I'm Wolf Blitzer, and this is "State of the Union." John King is off today. Here are the stories breaking this Sunday morning.

Four U.S. Marines have been killed in Afghanistan's dangerous Helmand province. Military officials say the Marines died yesterday in two separate bombings. A fifth U.S. servicemember died in the United States from wounds suffered in an attack last month. That brings the number of U.S. troops killed this year in Afghanistan to 106. That's a record pace.

Sources confirming to CNN that the CIA withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress on direct orders from then- Vice President Dick Cheney. The sources say the CIA director, Leon Panetta, has informed lawmakers about Cheney's role and has stopped the program. Efforts to contact Cheney for reaction have so far been unsuccessful.

NASA has given the green light to tonight's planned launch of the Space Shuttle Endeavor. Fueling began a couple of hours ago. Liftoff is now set for 7:13 p.m. Eastern. CNN will bring it to you live. NASA scrubbed last month's launch after several lightning strikes near the launch pad.

Those are the headlines on "State of the Union."

After a week of international travel, President Obama and his family arrived back at the White House just after midnight. Before he left his final stop in Accra, Ghana, he sat down with CNN's Anderson Cooper for an exclusive interview. You can see, by the way, the full interview tomorrow, Monday night, on "AC360."

But here are some of the highlights. The number one topic, as it was for most of us, the U.S. economy.


COOPER: Vice President Biden said that you misread the economy. You said no, no, no, we had incomplete information, and nevertheless you said that you would not have done anything differently.

That seems contradictory. How can you say that, if you had known unemployment would go to 9.5 percent, would you -- wouldn't you have asked for more money in the stimulus?

OBAMA: No, it's not contradictory. Keep in mind that we got an $800 billion stimulus package, by far the largest stimulus package ever approved by a United States Congress.

And the stimulus package is working exactly as we had anticipated. We gave out tax cuts early so that consumers could start spending or at least pay down debts so they could, at a later date, start spending. We put in $144 billion to states so that they wouldn't have to cut teachers and police officers and, you know, other social services that are vital, particularly at a time of recession.

And we always anticipated that a big chunk of that money then would be spent not only in the second half of the year, but also next year. This was designed to be a two-year plan and not a six-month plan.

Now, it may turn out that the enormous loss of wealth, the depth of the recession that's occurred requires us to reevaluate and see what else we can do in combination with the...

COOPER: A second stimulus?

OBAMA: Well, there are a whole range of things, Anderson, that we've done. The banks have stabilized much more quickly than we had anticipated. They're not all the way to where we'd like them to, but we've seen significant progress.

COOPER: Do you still see glimmers of hope?

OBAMA: If you look at both the financial sectors, the ability of the businesses to get loans, the drop off of volatility that's taken place, the general trajectory is in the right direction. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Anderson also asked the president about a story that broke last week, a possible war crime committed by an ally of the United States during the 2001 war in Afghanistan.


COOPER: It now seems clear that the Bush administration resisted efforts to pursue investigations of an Afghan warlord named General Dostum who was on the CIA payroll. It's now come out there were hundreds of Taliban prisoners under his care who got killed. Some were suffocated in a steel container. Others were shot, possibly buried in mass graves.

Would you support, would you call for an investigation into possible war crimes in Afghanistan?

OBAMA: The indications that this had not been properly investigated just recently was brought to my attention. So what I've asked my national security team to do is to collect the facts for me that are known and we'll probably make a decision in terms of how to approach it once we have all of the facts gathered up.

COOPER: But you wouldn't resist, categorically, an investigation?

OBAMA: I think that, you know, there are responsibilities that all nations have, even in war. And if it appears that our conduct in some way supported violations of the laws of war, then I think that, you know, we have to know about that.


BLITZER: Finally, the president spoke of how he was personally and deeply affected by the tour he took with his family, visiting the Cape Coast castle, a prison where enslaved Africans were held before being sold and shipped overseas. Anderson spoke to the president during that tour.


COOPER: You think what happened here still has resonance in America, that the slave experience still is something that should be talked about and should be remembered and should be present in everyday life?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I think that the experience of slavery is like the experience of the Holocaust. I think it's one of those things you don't forget about. I think it's important that the way we think about it and the way it's taught is not one in which there's simply a victim and a victimizer and that's the end of the story.

I think the way it has to be thought about, the reason it's relevant is because, whether it's what's happening in Darfur or what's happening in the Congo or what's happening in too many places around the world, you know, the capacity for cruelty still exists.


BLITZER: And don't forget, you can see Anderson's interview with the president tomorrow night, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN.

BLITZER: He says it's time for gays and lesbians to be able to serve openly in the United States military, and is heading a new effort to try to make that happen, the Iraq War veteran, Pennsylvania Democratic Congressman Patrick Murphy, he gets "The Last Word" when STATE OF THE UNION returns.


BLITZER: Twenty-four newsmakers, analysts, and reporters were out there on the Sunday morning talk shows, but only one gets "The Last Word." That honor today goes to Democratic Congressman Patrick Murphy from Pennsylvania. He is joining us from Philadelphia.

Congressman, thanks for coming in.

MURPHY: Great to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: If it's true that the former vice president of the United States, Dick Cheney, ordered the CIA not to share with leaders in the House and Senate some sort of classified intelligence program that was under way, we don't know what it was, would that be appropriate under some circumstances?

MURPHY: Absolutely not, Wolf. I mean, there is a reason why we have three branches of government that are co-equal branches of government. And the fact he, you know, really put the CIA in a bad position saying, don't tell the Congress, even those "Gang of Eight," those select few members of Congress that really should know what's going on, it's disturbing.

You know, when it comes to national security, Wolf, you know that politics should always stop at the water's edge. And I really think that the vice president put the CIA in a bad position here. These CIA personnel, they're just trying to do their job to keep our families safe.

BLITZER: You're on the House Intelligence Committee. And do you know what this program was, this controversial program that apparently the vice president thought was so secret, so important, it shouldn't be shared, the details should not be shared with the House and Senate intelligence committees?

MURPHY: I have been briefed by Director Panetta as a member of the Intelligence Committee. And obviously, Wolf, I can't talk about it on TV or even in private because it is classified. But I will say that it's a program that, to Director Panetta's credit, he stopped it immediately as new CIA director. And he went immediately to the Congress, came and brought us together -- there was only a few of us that are on the intelligence committees in the House and the Senate. He brought us together and said, listen, I just found out about this, I want to be straight with you. And we want to work, you know, with the executive branch, we want to work with these heroes in the CIA because, listen, they're trying to keep us safe. But we cannot allow folks that take an oath to support and defend the Constitution to really disregard a co-equal branch of government.

BLITZER: Should the attorney general of the United States, Eric Holder, ask for a special prosecutor or a special counsel to investigate the Bush administration's behavior in some of these areas, especially the enhanced interrogation techniques?

MURPHY: Well, listen, I'm not going to tell Attorney General Holder how to do this job, but I will tell in you that my job as a member of the Intelligence Committee, we're getting after this, and we're going to find out what was said, what was known, what happened, because it is disturbing, no doubt about it.

Listen, I came back from 7:30 Mass this morning and I read The New York Times on what happened, and I tell you, I was pretty upset, and I'm upset with the facts as they came out as related to me by the director of the CIA, Leon Panetta.

BLITZER: Now you're taking a leadership role now in trying to get the U.S. military to move away from the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that bars homosexuals from serving openly in the United States military.

You're a veteran of the Iraq War, you've served in the military. Why now, in the middle of two wars, do you think it's a good time to move away from the "don't ask, don't tell" policy?

MURPHY: It's actually the best time to move away from it, Wolf, because we've discharged over 13,000 troops, that's over three-and-a- half combat brigades, not for any type of sexual misconduct. If it's sexual misconduct, they should be thrown out. But just because of their orientation, just because they're gay, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Listen, when you're a paratrooper like I was in the 82nd Airborne Division, you don't care whether -- what race someone is or color or creed, you don't care what their orientation is. You care if they can fire an M-4 assault rifle, whether they can kick down a door in Baghdad or Kabul, and whether they can do their job. That's what you care about, and whether or not you can all make it home alive to see your families.

BLITZER: Thirteen thousand have been discharged since 1993 when the "don't ask, don't tell" policy was brought into line. Those who say, you know what, it has served pretty well and it's good for unit cohesion and morale for the troops, that -- what do you say to those people who say, you know what, this is a good idea, keep it going the way it is?

MURPHY: Wolf, I asked those people why don't they think our young men and women here in America are professional soldiers, are as professional as the 24 other countries that allow our troops to serve openly? Even our strongest allies, Great Britain and Israel, allow their troops to serve openly.

It will not affect unit cohesion. Listen, these troopers, these heroes that are 18, 19, 20, 22 years old, they don't care about this. They care whether or not they can get the job done. And I tell you, it's disheartening when I hear them question the professionalism of our men and women in uniform.

BLITZER: Do you have any reason to believe that the president of the United States, who, during the campaign, since the campaign has said, you know what, I think it's time to move beyond "don't ask, don't tell," but he -- so far he hasn't done it. Do you have any reason to believe he will take the first steps necessary to remove this policy?

MURPHY: Absolutely. Wolf, in fact, he has -- already has done that. He talked a week ago to the secretary of defense and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and said, listen, be ready to implement a change in the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

He went and now it's our job as the Congress to overturn that policy. What the president -- President Obama does, he understands and he has a healthy respect for a co-equal branch of government.

And he's not saying to his military, well, disregard what the Congress passed 16 years ago, no matter how wrong it might be. It was an act of Congress, Wolf, that put this law into place -- the discriminatory law into place. It will take an act of Congress to repeal it.

BLITZER: Do you have the votes?

MURPHY: And then -- we're going to have the votes when it comes to vote, Wolf. And that's my job, to quarterback this through the House and get it to the president's desk after it gets through the Senate to overturn and to change this wrongful policy.

BLITZER: Patrick Murphy is the Democratic congressman from Pennsylvania. Congressman, thanks for coming in.

MURPHY: Thanks, Wolf. I appreciate it.

BLITZER: And don't forget, coming up right at 1:00 p.m. Eastern, at the top of the hour, "FAREED ZAKARA: GPS," takes a comprehensive look at international affairs with world leaders, policy experts, and journalists.

This week Fareed speaks with the treasury secretary, Timothy Geithner, in an exclusive interview.


SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY TIMOTHY F. GEITHNER: I mean, if you just look at the response of the (inaudible) as we go through this period of time, when people are most concerned about risk, generally they want to be investing in the most liquid, safest market in the world, which is still the market for our Treasury bills. And I think you've seen that pattern consistently over a period of time, and we want to make sure that we can sustain that basic response.


BLITZER: Stay tuned for "Fareed Zakaria: GPS," that comes up right at the top of the hour.

Up next, the challenges that come with rural health care. The nearest hospital is often miles and miles away. And many avoid getting even the most basic care because they can't afford it.


BLITZER: Welcome back to "State of the Union." I'm Wolf Blitzer, sitting in for John King.

Every week, John likes to get outside of Washington and speak with you about the issues being debated right here in Washington. In John's American dispatch this week, an up-close look at how many in rural America worry their unique concerns and challenges might not fit with Washington's debate over accessible and affordable health care.


JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Clay, West Virginia, is tucked into the remote, rolling hills of coal country. The nearest hospital is 50 miles away on these winding, rural roads. With the poverty rate approaching 30 percent, many here could barely afford the drive, yet alone the care, like Carl and Elizabeth Walls.

CARL WALLS, CLAY, WEST VIRGINIA: If life and death depended on money, I'd just have to die.

ELIZABETH WALLS, CLAY, WEST VIRGINIA: You would be dead right now.

C. WALLS: I'd have been dead right now. KING: Carl had a massive heart attack a little more than a month ago. First, a long ambulance ride and blood thinners at a rural hospital, then an emergency Medevac to Charleston.

C. WALLS: (inaudible) with dignity with every (inaudible) that you could ask. And in spite of me not having any money, I'm treated as if I were a king, you know?

KING: Most of their life savings went to paying for back surgery and other health issues Elizabeth had a few years back. She has diabetes and is legally blind.

(on camera): Why won't you go to the doctor?

E. WALLS: Because I can't pay for him. And I -- you know, I could go and I get bills and I can't pay those bills, so.

C. WALLS: We have got thousands and thousands of dollars worth of bills come in and what can you do about them?

KING: But so you'd rather not go to the doctor than to have a bill come that you can't pay?

E. WALLS: Right.

(UNKNOWN): Did you get in touch with her regarding that repeat on the mammo?

KING (voice-over): It is the dilemma Dr. Sarah Chouinard faces every day, trying to convince the uninsured not to wait for the heart attack, cancer diagnosis, or some other major problem to seek medical care.

DR. SARAH CHOUINARD, CLAY PRIMARY HEALTH CARE CENTER: We offer sliding fee payment scales. If they're at 100 percent federal poverty level or worse, then they owe us $5 only and the rest of their care is waived. Thirty-five percent of our patients are uninsured and so we have to come up ways to deliver health care at low cost and try to figure out what to do with their health care once they are outside of these walls.

KING: The urgent focus here is preventive care because it's the right medical approach and because Dr. Chouinard and her colleagues know many of their poor and uninsured patients will ignore suggestions to see expensive specialists.

CHOUINARD: We see a large portion of diabetics, hypertensive and hypercholesterolemic patients. Our hope is that we keep people away from needing expensive health care services. So our role in a rural setting is key.

The question is, how do we keep paying for it? How do we keep giving discounted care? How do we afford to keep the doors open?

KING: A big chunk of the clinic's budget comes from federal grants. And Dr. Chouinard says she hasn't heard much talks during the reform debate in Washington about how to protect places like this in small town America.

CHOUINARD: It will be interesting to see what happens if they come up with universal coverage, what will our role as a federally- qualified health center be?

How is our role defined after that?

I worry that we have patients here who will maybe not fall into some category and somehow slip through the cracks.

KING: Carl and Elizabeth Walls share that concern. They sold two small businesses, watched the money go to health care bill, and now have thousands of dollars more because of Carl's heart attack.

E. WALLS: You know, we have worked all of our life and tried and we can't seem to get any programs that work for us. KING: It's not that the Walls or Dr. Chouinard oppose the idea of universal coverage. To the contrary, it's just the sense that when there is talk of big change, people like them and places like this so often get left behind.


BLITZER: John King, reporting.

We're just getting this in from the White House. The president, this morning, was in the Oval Office, and he phoned Sonia Sotomayor, his Supreme Court justice nominee, to wish her good luck as she completed preparations for the confirmation hearings that begin tomorrow morning. He complimented her for making courtesy calls to 89 senators in the course of this -- the past several weeks.

Remember, our special coverage tomorrow will begin at 10:00 a.m. Eastern for Judge Sotomayor's confirmation hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee. We'll have extensive coverage throughout the week.

If you missed any part of "State of the Union," tune in tonight, 8:00 p.m. Eastern. We'll showcase the best of today's program.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. John King will be back next Sunday.