Return to Transcripts main page
State of the Union
"The Last Word": Senator Carl Levin
Aired September 20, 2009 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: We'd like to welcome back our international viewers for this hour. I'm John King. This is STATE OF THE UNION.
KING (voice-over): One-on-one with President Obama.
OBAMA: I don't think that illegal immigrants should be covered under this health care plan.
KING: Our sit-down interview, the president discusses the signature issues facing the nation, from health care to the economy and the U.S. mission in Afghanistan. And we put your questions to the president.
Then, reaction from the top Republican in Congress, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.
And he says this is no time to send more U.S. troops to Afghanistan. The powerful chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Democrat Carl Levin, gets "The Last Word."
And our "American Dispatch" from Connecticut, where fears of a possible H1N1 flu pandemic have campuses on high alert and vaccine- makers in a rush.
This is the STATE OF THE UNION report for Sunday, September 20th.
KING: It is eight months to the day since Barack Obama made history. He took office as the 44th president of the United States. From day one, enormous challenges. An economy in collapse. Two difficult wars overseas. The daunting math of matching health care reform and other ambitious campaign promises up against the rising red ink of deficit spending. On this, day 244 of the Obama presidency, the challenges are just as many and dealing with them complicated by a political climate here in Washington and across the country that has turned raw and contentious, in part some believe because the president is African- American.
A lot to talk about as I sat down with the president in the Roosevelt Room at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KING: Mr. President, thank you for joining us.
OBAMA: Great to see you.
KING: I want to begin with the economy. I get out of Washington every week for the show, I was in Connecticut and Rhode Island this week. And I knew I was going to be seeing you, so I asked 20 people: "What would you ask if you had the privilege that I have at this moment?" Eighteen of the twenty, eighteen, asked a variation of...
KING: ... where are the jobs? When are they coming back?
OBAMA: Yes. Well, look, the -- this is something that I ask every single one of my economic advisers every single day, because I know that ultimately the measure of an economy is, is it producing jobs that help people support families, send their kids to college? That's the single most important thing we can do. What we've done, I think, in the first eight months is to stop the bleeding. We've...
KING: Is the recession over?
OBAMA: Well, you know, I'll leave that up to the Fed chairman to pronounce whether it's officially over or not. I think what's absolutely clear is that -- that the financial markets are working again, that we even saw manufacturing tick up, in terms of production, last month. So all of the signs are that the economy is going to start growing again.
But here's -- here's the challenge, that not only are usually jobs figures the last to catch up, they're the lagging indicator, but the other problem is, we lost so many jobs that making up for those that have already been lost is going to require really high growth rates.
And so what we're focused right now on is, how can we make sure that businesses are investing again? How can we make sure that certain industries that were really important, like housing, are stabilized? How can we expand our export markets? And that's part of what the G-20 meeting in Pittsburgh is going to be about, making sure that there's a more balanced economy.
We can't go back to the era where the Chinese or the Germans or other countries just are selling everything to us, we're taking out a bunch of credit card debt or home equity loans, but we're not selling anything to them.
So that's how all this is going to fit together. But I want to be clear that probably the jobs picture is not going to improve considerably -- and it could even get a little bit worse -- over the next couple of months. And we're probably not going to start seeing enough job creation to deal with the -- you know, a rising population until some time next year.
KING: Do you think jobs will not grow -- you will not be adding jobs until some time next year, or maybe...
OBAMA: No, I think -- I think we'll be adding jobs, but you need 150,000 additional jobs each month just to keep pace with a growing population. So if we're only adding 50,000 jobs, that's a great reversal from losing 700,000 jobs early this year, but, you know, it means that we've still got a ways to go.
KING: Let's talk health care. The Senate Finance Committee finally has a proposal before it by the chairman, Max Baucus. It's getting some criticism from the left, some criticism from the right. I want to get to the details of it in a minute. It's also getting some important praise from the middle. I want to break down some of the details in a minute.
But if the Baucus bill made it to your desk as is, would you sign it? Does it meet your goals?
OBAMA: Well, that's such a hypothetical, since it won't get there as is, that I'm not going to answer that question. But can I say that it does meet some broad goals that all the bills that have been introduced meet...
KING: Is it better than the others?
OBAMA: It provides health insurance to people who don't have it at affordable prices. I'd like to make sure that we've got that affordability really buttoned down, because I think that's one of the most important things is that if we're offering people health insurance and we're saying that people have to get health insurance if it's affordable, we've got to make sure it's affordable.
We're helping people who have health insurance with the -- with knowing that, if they're paying their premiums, they're actually getting what they pay for, and that has been a huge problem, the people not able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions, being surprised because some fine print says that they've got to pay huge out-of-pocket expenses or they hit a lifetime cap. All of those reforms are in there, and that's really important.
Deficit neutrality, very important. Bending the cost curve, reducing health care inflation over time, part of the reason that's so important, there was just a report that came out last week. Kaiser Family Foundation said, if you've got health insurance, last year, your premiums went up 5.5 percent, 5.5 percent. This is despite the fact that inflation was negative on everything else.
And that has been true almost every year. Premiums have doubled, gone up over 130 percent over the last 10 years. That's the direction we're heading. More and more people are finding that their employers are dropping their coverage, because it's getting too expensive, so making sure that we're controlling the long-term costs by improving the delivery systems, all of that is in the bill.
Now, there are a whole bunch of details that still have to get worked out. I suspect you'll have one or two questions about them. But what I'll say is, is that right now I'm pleased that, basically, we've got 80 percent agreement, we've got to really work on that next 20 percent over the last few weeks.
KING: One of the issues is how to pay for it. And one of the things Chairman Baucus does -- and you have endorsed, at least in concept -- is putting a fee, slapping a fee on these so-called "Cadillac" insurance plans. And the fee would go on the insurance company, not on the individual.
KING: But as you know, many of your allies, Senator Rockefeller, other Democrats, and many union presidents who have helped you in this fight, say, you know what? That insurance company will pass that on to the consumer, and they think it's a backdoor way potentially of violating your promise during the campaign to not raise taxes, not hurt middle-class Americans, because that will be passed back on through the back door.
OBAMA: Keep in mind that the average insurance plan, I think, is about $13,000, a little -- maybe a little more than that, because of health care inflation. Even the health care plan that members of Congress get is, you know, in that range of the teens. And so people would be, for the most part, completely unaffected by this.
You do have some Cadillac plans -- I mean, you know, the CEOs of Goldman, I think, published what their plans were worth. They were worth $40,000 or something like that. That's probably leading to...
KING: Would you make sure...
OBAMA: ... some waste...
KING: I hate to interrupt, but would you make sure that -- some of these unions have negotiated pretty good plans, too. Would you...
OBAMA: Oh, absolutely.
KING: ... make sure theirs are carved out, or should some of them be subject to that?
OBAMA: Well, this is a very important issue. I've been talking to the unions about it. I've been honest with them about it. What I've said is, is that the -- we want to make sure that guys are protected, guys and gals who have got a good benefit, that they are protected, but we also want to make sure that we're using our health dollars wisely.
And I -- I do think that giving a disincentive to insurance companies to offer Cadillac plans that don't make people healthier is part of the way that we're going to bring down health care costs for everybody over the long term.
KING: It is not one of the central issues, but it has become one of the emotional flashpoints, and that is coverage of illegal immigrants. The Finance Committee plan is the only one in Congress right now that has specific language that says an illegal immigrant cannot go to one of these new health insurance exchanges. It requires documentation.
Would you sign a bill without that documentation? Or is that an adamant red line for you?
OBAMA: Let me be clear. I think that, if I'm not mistaken, almost all of the plans had specific language saying that illegal immigrants would not be covered. The question really was, was the enforcement mechanism strong enough?
Here's what I've said, and I will repeat: I don't think that illegal immigrants should be covered under this health care plan. There should be a verification mechanism in place. We do that for a whole range of existing social programs. And I think that's a pretty straightforward principle that will be met.
KING: Mitch McConnell told a conservative group: "We're winning the health care debate." What do you think of that?
OBAMA: Well, you know, they -- they were saying they were winning during the election, too.
KING: Up next, we turn to global challenges, wrestling with sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, and a headline from former President Bill Clinton's trip to North Korea. Much more with President Obama, next.
KING: Afghanistan is now often referred to as Obama's war and the strategy and decisions he faces in the coming weeks could well define his presidency. The American people have deep doubts about the mission and some of the president's fellow Democrats see eerily parallels to Iraq in Afghanistan's failure to build a more capable army and its government corruption and dysfunction. Defining the mission is perhaps the president's biggest challenge.
KING: Let me move on to the world stage. You face a very tough decision in the weeks ahead about Afghanistan. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, says she has been told that General McChrystal has finished his report and his recommendation to you, but he has been told, "Don't call us; we'll call you. Hold it."
Are you or someone working for you asking him to sit on that at the moment because of the dicey politics of this?
OBAMA: No, no, no, no. Let -- let me describe the process from start to where we are now. When we came in, I think everybody understood that our Afghanistan strategy was somewhat adrift, despite the extraordinary valor of the young women -- men and women who are -- who are fighting there.
So what we said was, let's do a soup-to-nuts re-evaluation, focusing on what our original goal was, which was to get Al Qaida, the people who killed 3,000 Americans.
To the extent that our strategy in Afghanistan is serving that goal, then we're on the right track. If it starts drifting away from that goal, then we may have a problem.
What I also said was, we've got an election coming up. I ordered 21,000 troops in to secure that election. But I said, after the election's over, we've got to review it, because we've got to figure out, what kind of partner do we have in Afghanistan? Are they willing to make the commitment to build their capacity to secure their own country?
We are in the process of working through that strategy. The only thing I've said to my folks is, A, I want an unvarnished assessment, but, B, I don't want to put the resource question before the strategy question. You know, the -- because there is a natural inclination to say, if I get more, then I can do more. But right now, the question is, the first question is, are we doing the right thing? Are we pursuing the right strategy?
And -- and once I have that clarity from the commanders on the ground, Secretary Gates, my national security adviser, Jim Jones, and others, when we have clarity on that, then the question is, OK, how do we resource it? And that's -- what I will say to the American public is not going to be driven by the politics of the moment. It's going to be driven by the fact that, A, my most important job is to keep us safe -- and Al Qaida's still trying to do us harm -- but, B, every time I sign an order, you know, I'm answerable to the parents of those young men and women who I'm sending over there, and I want to make sure that it's for the right reason.
KING: On that point, about a month before the election, you promised a re-focused national security strategy. And you said, quote, "We will kill bin Laden. We will crush Al Qaida." As president, commander-in-chief, are you finding it's harder to find him than you thought it might have been as a candidate?
OBAMA: Oh, I think as a candidate I knew I was -- it was going to be hard. I don't doubt the interest and the desire of the previous administration to find him and kill him. But I do think that, if we have a overarching strategy that reminds us every day that that's our focus, that we have a better chance of capturing and killing him and certainly keeping Al Qaida on the run than if we start drifting into a whole bunch of other missions that really aren't related to what is our essential strategic problem and rationale for being there.
KING: It is a small number, but a growing number of Democrats in the Congress who say they want a timeline, they want a time limit on U.S. troop commitments in Afghanistan. You thought that was a good idea when it came to Iraq. Is it a good idea for Afghanistan?
OBAMA: You know, I think that what we have to do is get the right strategy, and then I think we've got to have some clear benchmarks, matrix of progress. That's part of the reason why I said, even after six months, I wanted us to re-evaluate. You know...
KING: What would you say to the American who says you've been president for eight months, why are you still looking for a strategy?
OBAMA: Well, no, no, no. Keep in mind that we have a -- we put a strategy in place, clarified our goals, but what the election has shown, as well as changing circumstances in Pakistan, is that, you know, this is going to be a very difficult operation, and we've got to make sure that we're constantly refining it to keep our focus on what our primary goals are.
KING: Do you think President Karzai stole the election?
OBAMA: You know, I don't think that, you know, I'm going to make comments on the election until after everything has been certified. I think there is no doubt that there were reports of fraud out there that at first glance look pretty serious. They're being investigated. They're going through the -- the normal processes.
How much fraud took place and whether that had a substantial effect on the results of the election, I think that is something that we're going to have to wait and see in the next few weeks.
KING: A couple other quick security questions, and then I want to bring it back home. You recently had lunch with President Clinton. He went to North Korea to help facilitate the release of those American journalists. What is the most interesting thing he told you about Kim Jong-il?
OBAMA: You know, I think President Clinton's assessment was that he's -- he's pretty healthy and in control. And that's important to know, because we don't have a lot of interaction with the North Koreans. And, you know, President Clinton had a chance to see him close up and have conversations with him.
I won't go into any more details than that. But there's no doubt that this is somebody who, you know, I think for a while people thought was slipping away. He's reasserted himself. It does appear that he's concerned about -- he was more concerned about succession when he was -- succession when he was sick, maybe less so now that he's well.
But our -- but our main focus on North Korea -- and I'm very -- actually, this is a success story so far, and that is that we have been able to hold together a coalition that includes the Chinese and the Russians to really apply some of the toughest sanctions we've seen, and it's having an impact.
OBAMA: And I think that North Korea is saying to itself, you know, we can't just bang our spoon on the table and somehow think that the world is going to react positively. We've got to start behaving responsibly. So hopefully, we'll start seeing some progress on that front.
KING: Seven former directors of central intelligence have sent you a letter saying, please invoke your authority to stop the attorney general's investigation of the Bush-era interrogation tactics. Will you do that?
OBAMA: You know, first of all, I respect all seven of them. And as importantly or more importantly, I have absolute respect and have reliance upon a robust CIA.
And I've said before, I want to look forward and not backwards on this issue. On the other hand, I've also said nobody is above the law. And I don't want to start getting into the business of squelching, you know, investigations that are being conducted.
Now, it's not a criminal investigation as yet, my understanding. I trust career prosecutors to be judicious. I've made clear both publicly and privately that I have no interest in witch hunts. But, ultimately, the law is the law, and we don't go around sort of picking and choosing how we approach it.
KING: Ahead, angry outbursts and disturbing images in recent weeks have some on the left suggesting racism motivates some Obama critics. Does the president see race as the issue? I'll ask him next.
KING: How much, if at all, does our first African-American president believe race motivates his critics? Back to our conversation in the Roosevelt Room.
KING: It's a tough business, as you know. But in recent weeks, people have raised some pretty serious questions. The big rally in town, signs talking about "Afro-socialism," swastikas with your name and your picture on them; "You lie" shouted at you during a nationally televised addressed. And former President Carter says he sees racism in some of this. Do you?
OBAMA: You know, as I've said in the past, you know, are there people out there who don't like me because of race? I'm sure there are. That's not the overriding issue here. I think there are people who are anti-government.
I think that there are -- there has been a longstanding debate in this country that is usually that much more fierce during times of transition or when presidents are trying to bring about big changes.
I mean, the things that were said about FDR are pretty similar to the things that were said about me, that he was a communist, he was a socialist. Things that were said about Ronald Reagan when he was trying to reverse some of the New Deal programs, you know, were -- were pretty vicious, as well.
The only thing I'd just hope is, is that people -- you know, I think we can have a strong disagreement, passionate disagreements about issues without -- without resorting to name-calling. We can maintain civility. We can give other people the benefit of the doubt that -- that they want what is best for this country.
KING: But the speaker says it reminds her of the hateful anti- gay language in San Francisco that led to deadly violence. Jim Clyburn, who's the highest-ranking African-American in Congress, says he thinks people are trying to de-legitimize you. Did you see it as that worrisome?
OBAMA: You know, I've got to tell you that, as I said before, you know, yelling at politicians is as American as apple pie. I mean, that's -- that's in our DNA. We -- I said this in the speech to the joint session, that we have a long tradition of being skeptical of government.
I do think that it's important for us, again, to remind ourselves that all of us are Americans who love this country. I think it's important not to exaggerate or provide just rank misinformation about each other.
You know, I'm amused. I can't tell you how many foreign leaders who are heads of center-right governments say to me, I don't understand why people would call you socialist, in my country, you'd be considered a conservative.
You know, and the other thing I've got to say is, is that I think it's important for the media -- you know, not to do any media-bashing here -- to recognize that right now, in this 24-hour news cycle, the easiest way to get on CNN or FOX or any of the other stations -- MSNBC -- is to just say something rude and outrageous.
If you're civil, and polite, and you're sensible, and you don't exaggerate the -- the bad things about your opponent, and, you know, you might maybe get on one of the Sunday morning shows, but -- but you're not going to -- you're not going to be on the loop. And, you know, part of what I'd like to see is -- is all of us reward decency and civility in our political discourse. That doesn't mean you can't be passionate, and that doesn't mean that you can't speak your mind. But I think we can all sort of take a step back here and remind ourselves who we are as a people.
KING: I'm over my time. If I can, I want to ask you one question as a parent, not as a president. I was on a college campus this week and at a lab where they're trying to make an H1N1 vaccine.
As a parent with two daughters in school, how are you dealing with this? And does the Obama family plan include a vaccine for you?
OBAMA: Well, the -- here's the Obama family plan, is to call up my HHS secretary, Kathleen Sebelius, and my CDC director and just ask them, "What's your recommendation?" And whatever they tell me to do, I will do. My understanding, at this point, is that the high-risk populations are going to be first with the vaccine, and that means not only health care workers, but particularly children with underlying neurological vulnerabilities. And so we've got to make sure that those vaccines go to them first.
OBAMA: I'm assuming -- and pregnant women, by the way -- after that, I think you're looking at kids, and so Malia and Sasha would fall into that category. I suspect that I may come fairly far down the line, so we're not going to -- here's what I guarantee you. We want to get vaccinated. We think it's the right thing to do. We will stand in line like everybody else. And when folks say it's our turn, that's when we'll get it.
KING: Mr. President, thank you for your time.
OBAMA: Thank you so much.
KING: Thank you.
OBAMA: Appreciated it.
KING: Joining us now to offer his perspective on health care, Afghanistan, and more, is the top Republican in Congress, the Senate minority leader, Mitchell McConnell of Kentucky. Senator McConnell, let me ask you an open-ended question. You just listened to 20 minutes there of the president of the United States. What most jumped out at you?
MCCONNELL: Well, I certainly agree with the president and disagree with President Carter that this great national debate we're having right now has anything whatsoever to do with race. The American people are concerned when they see the government running banks and insurance companies and car companies and now want to, in effect, take over almost 20 percent of our economy, our health care. These are the kinds of things about which there ought to be a very spirited debate and we're in the process of having that here in this country.
KING: Well, I want you to listen, not to the president, but I want you to listen to your own voice. You spoke here in Washington on Friday to a conservative gathering about the health care debate and you voiced quiet confidence about the Republican position. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCONNELL: We're seeing it today in the debate over health care. Ordinary Americans speaking their minds, dismissed and ridiculed by people in power. The reason they are doing this is clear, because we're winning the argument.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: Define "winning" for me. Is winning blocking the Democratic plans and ending this year without a health care reform bill reaching the president's desk?
MCCONNELL: No, winning is stopping and starting over and getting it right. I don't know anybody in my Republican conference in the Senate who's in favor of doing nothing on health care. We obviously have a cost problem and we have an access problem.
But there's a very big difference about whether or not it's appropriate to have a major rewrite of about one sixth of our economy in the process. My members just don't think that's the right way to go. We want to fix the health care system, but we don't want to do or have a $1 trillion over 10-year cut in Medicare, not to make Medicare more sustainable, but to start a new program for others.
We don't think it's a good idea to raise taxes on small businesses and on individuals in the heart of a recession. There are some serious differences about what ought to be done. KING: I saw your speech just before I went over to see the president. So I asked him about it. Listen to this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Mitch McConnell told the conservative group, we're winning the health care debate. What do you think of that?
OBAMA: Well, you know, they were saying they were winning during the election too. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: A confident president there, saying he will get health care. He also said in an interview with Univision that's airing this morning that he would love Republican votes, but I don't count on them. I don't count on them. Mr. Leader, let me ask you, if they go forward and they do this with all Democrats, what does that do to the environment down the road? Some Republicans have said well then don't expect our cooperation on financial reform. Don't expect our cooperation on Afghanistan. Is this one issue health care, or could it poison the well?
MCCONNELL: Look, it's not about winning or losing, it's not about the president, it's about American health care and getting it right. And if they try to use this legislative loophole called reconciliation, what they'll be doing, in effect, is jamming through a proposal to rewrite the economy with about 24 hours of debate.
Basically, a legislative loophole to do a massive rewrite of one sixth of our economy. I think that that will produce a very, very severe reaction among the American people, who are already, according to the Gallup poll, not in favor of the direction we're taking on this very important issue. KING: Help me understand if there's a gap between the audience in the sense that you say here, it's not about winning or losing, but you were very clear to that conservative group, we're winning the argument.
MCCONNELL: Well, by winning, the definition of winning is to stop and start over and do it right.
KING: Let me move you to the world stage. One of the things that struck me is when I asked the president about Afghanistan, our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr says General McChrystal's ready to send his recommendation, his report to the president, but he has been told just wait a little bit, they want to discuss some other things first. And the president said, he explained that and said well, we have this big strategy we have to work through, other questions first about the election, about the political situation, and I don't want to put the resource question ahead of those other things. The president's answer make sense to you on that?
MCCONNELL: Well, I mean the president enjoys very strong support among Republicans in the Senate for what he's doing in Afghanistan. We are, however, disturbed by reports from your network, CNN, that he was, in effect, asking General McChrystal to delay his recommendation.
We think it is time to receive the recommendation. We would like to see General McChrystal and General Petraeus come up to Congress, like they did during the Iraq surge and give us the information about what they're recommending.
We think the time for decision is now. As Senator McCain has pointed out, when you delay a decision like this, you, arguably, maybe, unnecessarily endanger the lives of our soldiers. If we need to change strategy, if we need to increase the troop strength there, I think the president will enjoy a lot of support among Senate Republicans.
KING: And do you believe, sir, that we need more troops in Afghanistan?
MCCONNELL: I think he ought to rely on the -- look, General Petraeus did a great job with the surge in Iraq. I think he knows what he's doing. General McChrystal is a part of that. We have a lot of confidence in those two generals. I think the president does as well. I think he ought to follow his advice.
KING: Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell. As always sir, we appreciate your time here on "State of the Union."
MCCONNELL: Thank you, John. (END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And coming up, an exclusive interview with the Armed Service Committee chairman about his concerns with President Obama's Afghanistan strategy. But straight ahead, a look at stories breaking this Sunday. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: I'm John King and this is "State of the Union." Here are stories breaking this Sunday. Federal agents have arrested three men and the Justice Department says more arrests are possible as they probe an alleged plot to set off bombs in the United States. Najibullah Zazi and his father were taken into custody last night outside of Denver. Another man was arrested in Queens, New York. The three are charged with making false statements to investigators. The death toll from a car bombing in Afghanistan has risen to 26. The explosion Thursday targeted a residential area in the Supreme Court in Kabul. The death included six Italian soldiers. Their flag- draped coffins were returned to Italy today.
Those are your top stories here on "State of the Union."
KING: And don't forget, coming up right at the top of the hour, 1 p.m. Eastern, "Fareed Zakaria: GPS." This week, Fareed gets a rare sit-down with the Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSSIAN PRESIDENT DMITRY MEDVEDEV (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Air defense issues should not be dealt with in isolation by two or three countries only. These questions are of global importance.
There are problems of Middle East; then there are problems of North Korea, and several other problems.
Therefore, this protection, this shield, should be of global importance, not boiled down to a few missiles which primarily would reach our territory, and it will not cover other distances.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Stay tuned. "Fareed Zakaria: GPS," coming up at the top of the hour, only here on CNN.
President Obama faces some tough choices on U.S. you troop levels in an Afghanistan. And one powerful Democratic senator, just back from the region, says he needs to see progress before he could support more troops.
Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, his advice to the president, the last word, next.
KING: Twelve newsmakers, analysts and reporters, including the president of the United States, were out on the Sunday morning talk shows, but only one gets the last word.
That honor today goes to Democratic Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, who is the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Mr. Chairman, thanks for joining us.
A lot of talk about Afghanistan today, including from the president of the United States. One thing we have learned here at CNN is that General McChrystal, the commander of U.S. forces there, has his report and his recommendations ready. The administration wants some answers first about the election and the fraud -- alleged fraud and the political situation before it considers that report.
Is that acceptable to you? If the general's report is ready, should it be sent to Congress, to your committee, as well as to the White House?
LEVIN: Well, first, it ought to be sent up the chain of command, up to Petraeus, up to Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, up to the secretary of defense, Secretary Gates.
The president obviously wants advice from his commander, and it's important that he get it. But it's also important that he get advice from the secretary of defense and from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the chiefs themselves. So it's perfectly appropriate.
And I think what's going on here is that there is a number of questions which are being asked to General McChrystal about some of the assumptions which have been previously made in the strategy, including that there would be an election which would be a stabilizing influence instead of a destabilizing influence.
I'm sure there's questions being made -- being asked about McChrystal, about the effect of a NATO response, about an increased -- in equipment, if they could get a much greater number of pieces of equipment to the Afghan army, what effect that might have on his recommendation.
So this is an ongoing request, I think, from McChrystal, for additional information on different kinds of assumptions which now are perhaps more true than they were when the original request with was made. But that is it a very normal kind of a conversation.
Everyone should want the benefit of General McChrystal's comments and recommendations, but with two caveats, here.
Number one, he's just in the chain of command, and there's higher-ups. This is not a situation like General Petraeus in Iraq, when the president basically said, whatever the commander in Iraq wants, he's going to get. This is not that situation.
That delegation of responsibility from the commander in chief to the commander in the field has not been made by the president, and I don't think it should be made. He should want the recommendations of the higher-ups in the chain, as well as, obviously, the commander in the field.
KING: Well, then let me come in on that point. During the Iraq war, when Republicans ran the United States Senate for most of it, you were highly critical of what you thought was a lack of tough, honest, critical congressional oversight.
Has this administration promised you that, after that report is submitted, no matter how long it takes, that you will get a chance at General McChrystal, that he will come up and testify?
LEVIN: Well, they don't have to promise. When we have a recommendation that is made to the president, and when the president makes his decision, we will, at that point, have General McChrystal and General Petraeus come up, and we will ask them questions about whether or not they agree with whatever the decision is.
But to inject them -- interject them now, in the middle of this kind of iterative conversation, where there's a back-and-forth, asking, well, would your recommendation be different if, and then talk about what about the election; will that be a stable outcome; what about equipment -- we have not sent nearly enough equipment yet.
And I've been recommending to the president that, first of all, before any consideration is made of additional combat forces, that we get the Afghan army bigger, better equipped. We should not delay in that. We ought to do those things right away. We know those things are going to be part of any decision and any recommendation. And I think they're overdue.
KING: Well, on that very point, I've moved over to our magic wall. Because I want to show our viewers a map of the region. You were just in the region and you've been there many times. But I also want to just show them some of the facts, here, some of the numbers: $223 billion or more allocated to Afghanistan since the beginning of the war nearly eight years ago; roughly 62,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan now. Over $38 billion in aid has been spent there for reconstruction.
And yet you say, rightly so, Afghan security forces, the army, not up to speed as yet. The government has corruption issues. It is viewed as ineffective.
Many -- Senator, that sounds eerily familiar to the complaints after billions and billions and years were spent in Iraq, that -- where's their own army; where's their own security; and where's their government?
LEVIN: Well, I'll tell you where their army is. Their army is first in the hearts of their countrymen. The Afghan people like their army, respect their army. It's the most favorite institution in the nation. And the Afghan people are very much opposed to the Taliban.
You put those two facts together, and if we can get the Afghan army much larger, much better equipped, and if we can also get a plan, finally, for co-opting or reintegrating those lower-level Taliban people, the way we did in Iraq -- if we can get that in motion, that hopefully will have an effect on how many additional troops we need to go to Afghanistan.
KING: I want you to listen to one of your colleagues, Senator John McCain, who has listened to your call on the president to wait before sending more troops. Senator McCain doesn't like it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZ.: Despite our successes in Iraq and the hard-won understanding we have gained about what it takes to defeat an insurgency, it seems we now regrettably must have the same debate again today with respect to Afghanistan.
In all due respect, Senator Levin, I've seen that movie before. (END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: I'll give you a chance to fire back.
LEVIN: Sure. It's a very different movie.
LEVIN: In Iraq, the reason that we succeeded finally in turning things around there so that there's a better chance of success is that we finally were able to get the Sunni lower level folks who had been attacking us to switch sides. That's what we need to do also in Afghanistan. That is a very big difference.
Secondly, there was a change in strategy finally in Iraq so that instead of trying to just attack the insurgents, we were protecting the population. That new strategy is now in place in Afghanistan. So this is very different movie from Iraq. They are two very different places.
The Iraq army did not have that much confidence on the part of the Iraq people. The Afghan army has huge confidence from the people of Afghanistan.
KING: Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Carl Levin.
Senator, thanks for your time today.
LEVIN: Thank you, John.
KING: Take care, sir.
Up next, the growing challenge of containing the H1N1 flu virus. We'll take you to a campus on high alert, and to lab that hopes to win government approval for its version of an H1N1 vaccine.
KING: When a parent drops off a child at college, the usual worries, adjusting to dorm life, keeping the grades up. This fall, add in fear of the H1N1 flu virus and questions about how the government and schools, like the University of Connecticut, are preparing. Let's take a look at some of the numbers.
Nearly 48,000 probable H1N1 cases in the United States so far in 2009. Just shy of 50,000 there. Nearly 300,000 H1N1 cases confirmed worldwide. One of the reasons why the government -- the United States government, has ordered -- not yet ready but has ordered 195 million doses of the new vaccine.
So in our "American Dispatch" this week, we went to Connecticut for two glimpses at the H1N1 challenge, a nervous campus and a high- tech lab that wants a role in the global fight against the virus. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): The transition of summer to fall is one of New England's great treats. Mid-September, usually a peaceful break before the worries of winter. Usually.
An early flu season and fears of a possible H1N1 flu pandemic has college campuses across the country on alert. So far so good is the early assessment at the University of Connecticut. One confirmed and two probable cases two weeks into the school year.
There are warnings, advice, and hand sanitizer everywhere, yet Director of Student Health Services Mike Kurland assumes his luck will eventually run out.
MIKE KURLAND, UCONN STUDENT HEALTH DIR.: We have approximately 20,000 students here in Storrs. The amount that we'll see is the unknown. So we're making preparations for whatever might happen, but we do anticipate an outbreak of H1N1 virus or influenza-like illness.
KING: Constant calls with state and federal officials. Constant preparation.
KURLAND: We purchased large numbers of supplies, 15,000 surgical masks for patients who might be infected, 28,000 doses of Advil, 28,000 doses of Tylenol, 10,000 fever thermometers, thousands of hand sanitizer bottles.
KING: The seasonal flu shot is available for free, but like everyone else, UConn is in a long line waiting for the H1N1 vaccine.
KURLAND: All we know is that distribution will begin in October at some point. We have put in for 20,000 doses. There will be a small amount initially and then each week more will come through.
KING (on camera): Is it frustrating at all that you have a ballpark date, but you don't have a date?
KURLAND: It's very frustrating.
KING (voice-over): In this lab, 45 miles from the UConn campus, tests on a seasonal flu vaccine awaiting federal government approval, and in this refrigerator, an H1N1 vaccine its makers hope is on the market soon.
CLIFTON MCPHERSON, PROTEIN SCIENCES QUALITY CONTROL DIR.: This is a sample of what was actually sent to Australia for the clinical trial. It's just one of the remain -- the vials that was here for testing.
We're going to be starting production again next week of H1N1 so we can ramp up very fast.
KING: Protein Sciences Quality Control Director Clifton McPherson says the process here is different than most influenza vaccines. Traditional flu shots are made using eggs infected with the virus. Protein Sciences splices protein from the virus into caterpillar cells.
MCPHERSON: So we never have to handle live flu virus. We use the insect cells basically as protein factories and then we purify that protein from the insect cells, and that purified protein is then our vaccine.
KING: CEO Dan Adams says the Australian trials are going extremely well, that he's negotiating to sell H1N1 vaccines to Australia, China, South Korea, Mexico, and others.
DANIEL ADAMS, PROTEIN SCIENCES PRESIDENT: And so each one of those countries is free to approve our vaccine based on their own standards and...
KING: But in the United States...
ADAMS: We're not a licensed manufacturer yet.
We definitely are plan B.
KING: Plan B, because unless the FDA granted Protein Sciences emergency authority to market here in the United States, it could be months or longer before Washington passes judgment on the safety and effectiveness of this particular H1N1 vaccine.
ADAMS: When you're talking about the U.S. government and the FDA, you really don't want to do any harm. That's your first rule. So they're looking at safety. We certainly would like to see them move faster. I think the HHS is in many ways overwhelmed by the task of evaluating the safety and effectiveness of various H1N1 vaccines.
Again, you don't want to do harm.
KING: Fascinating lab there. Can't say I was the best at science. We'll be here again next Sunday and every Sunday at 9:00 a.m. Eastern for the first and last word in Sunday talk. If you missed any part of our program, tune in tonight 8:00 p.m. Eastern, we'll replay my entire interview with President Obama.
Until then, I'm John King in Washington. Have a great Sunday. Take care now.
For our international viewers, "AFRICAN VOICES" is next, for everyone else, "FAREED ZAKARIA: GPS" starts right now.