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State of the Union

Trump's Mixed Signals on Immigration; Interview With Vice Presidential Candidate Mike Pence; New Details On The Clinton Foundation; Trump Campaign Manager Accused of Anti-Semitism; Donald Trump's Tweets On Dwyane Wade's Cousin's Death. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired August 28, 2016 - 09:00   ET




JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Mixed signals.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No path to legalization unless they leave the country and come back.

TRUMP: Did Donald Trump reverse, then re-reverse a key part of his illegal immigration proposal, the cornerstone issue of his entire unprecedented battering ram of a campaign? We will ask his running mate, Governor Mike Pence, where Trump stands in an exclusive interview.

Plus: race and the race.

TRUMP: Hillary Clinton is a bigot.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There has been a steady stream of bigotry coming from him.

TAPPER: With the civility and restraint of a Facebook comment section, the accusations hit a fever pitch on the campaign trail. Is this the election's most ugly turn yet? Is any of it fair game?

And chief distraction? Donald Trump's brand-new campaign CEO now accused of anti-Semitism. Is the guy brought in to stop the distractions on his way to becoming an even bigger one?

Plus, the best political minds will be here with insights from the campaign trail.


TAPPER: Hello. I am Jake Tapper in Washington, where the state of our union is softening, or maybe it's hardening. It's tough to tell.

The "Stairway to Heaven" of Donald Trump's campaign, his biggest identifiable hit with the his fans, his unapologetic, non-negotiable stance on undocumented immigrants needing to leave this country, well, this week, Mr. Trump suggested it now might be negotiable? That's at least how many took it, including conservative supporters. Asked about those in the United States illegally who contribute to society, have kids here and who are otherwise law-abiding, Mr. Trump said this:


TRUMP: There certainly can be a softening, because we are not looking to hurt people. We want people. We have some great people in this country. We have some great, great people in this country.


TAPPER: This left many asking if Mr. Trump had changed his position on the biggest issue of his campaign, arguably, his insistence during the primaries that all 11 million undocumented immigrants would be forced to leave or removed from the U.S.

Was he now suggesting some might be able to stay? Well, he told CNN this:


TRUMP: There is no path to legalization, unless they leave the country and come back.


TAPPER: Yesterday in Iowa, Mr. Trump skirted the issue and focused directly on people here illegally who have committed other crimes.


TRUMP: On day one, I'm going to begin swiftly removing criminal illegal immigrants from this country...


TRUMP: ... including removing the hundreds and thousands of criminal illegal immigrants that have been released into the United States.


TAPPER: So, what does this all mean?

Let's get some clarity.

Joining me now for an exclusive interview is Donald Trump's running mate, Indiana Governor Mike Pence.

Governor Pence, good to see you again.


TAPPER: So, let's start with this issue, the estimated 11 or so million undocumented immigrants currently in the United States. This is what Mr. Trump promised back in November. Take a listen.


TRUMP: We're going to have a deportation force. And you're going to do it humanely.

QUESTION: Are they going to be ripped out of their homes? How?

TRUMP: Can I tell you? They're going back where they came. If they came from a certain country, they are going to be brought back to their country. That's the way it's supposed to be.


TAPPER: So, Mr. Trump has been saying that on, day one, the violent undocumented immigrants will be -- will leave the country. But what about the rest? What happens to the other 11 or so million, however many there are? Will there be a deportation force removing these individuals from the United States?

PENCE: Well, first off, let's be very clear first off. Nothing has changed about Donald Trump's position on dealing with illegal immigration.

He put this issue at the center of this presidential campaign in the Republican primaries. And his position and his principles have been absolutely consistent. We're going to secure the border. We're going to build a wall, have a physical barrier. We're going to enforce the laws of this country, end sanctuary cities, implement E-Verify.

And we will have a mechanism for dealing with people in this country that -- you heard the word humanely again. It is going to be fair. It is going to be tough. But there will be no path to legalization, no path to citizenship unless people leave the country. He has said that very consistently, the contrast with Hillary Clinton, who supports amnesty, open borders, who wants to implement executive amnesty again on day one, even though the Supreme Court of the United States rejected it, and Hillary Clinton, who wants to increase refugees from the terrorist-torn country of Syria by 550 percent.



PENCE: The choice couldn't be more clear for the American people. Donald Trump has been completely consistent in his positions, Jake.

TAPPER: Except on this issue. I understand everything you're saying there. But the one issue that you didn't really address is whether or not the 11 or 12 million undocumented immigrants will be removed by a deportation force, as you heard Mr. Trump say in that clip from November of last year.

Is that policy still operative?

PENCE: Well, what you heard him describe there, in his usual plainspoken, American way, was a mechanism, not a policy.

I mean, you're going to hear more detail in next two weeks that lays out all the policies. But there will be no change in the principle here that Donald Trump wants to make it clear to the American people that, while Hillary Clinton is committed to open borders, and amnesty, and executive amnesty, and more of the same that has really harmed our economy, and, frankly, as he said, with regard to dangerous individuals in this country, has cost American lives.

I -- when I was in Iowa, I met with Sarah Root's family. The heartbreak of Sarah Root's story and other stories of families whose children have lost their lives to people who are in this country, dangerous individuals who are caught up in this broken system and then escape justice, as the man that claimed her life did, it's going to end under an administration of Donald Trump.

TAPPER: I get that that the violent illegal immigrants will be removed from the country. But what I am not hearing and I am wondering, for people out there -- and, look, it's not just the liberal media, right?

It's also conservatives. It's Rush Limbaugh. It's Governor Sarah Palin. It's other people who want Donald Trump to win who are saying, wow, it sounds like he is really backing away from this deportation force...

PENCE: Right.

TAPPER: ... removing 11 million.

And you're not saying -- right now, Governor, you're not saying, you're not pledging that there will be a removal of all undocumented immigrants. You are not saying that.


What I am saying, Jake, and what I have said to you a minute ago -- and I want to be very clear -- there will be no path to legalization.

TAPPER: Right.

PENCE: No path to citizenship. People that want to gain legal status, you heard Donald Trump say again and again, will have to leave the country.


TAPPER: Right, but what about the millions in this country right now? What happens to them?

PENCE: Well, I think Donald Trump will articulate what we do with the people who are here. But I promise you...

TAPPER: Well, he already has articulated it.

PENCE: ... Donald Trump is more concerned about the American people, American citizens, people who are here legally, people that are struggling in this economy.

You got a family in Ohio, that the dad is working two jobs and mom has a side job and they're trying to make ends meet. They haven't seen their real personal income go up in 10 to 15 years. And this flood of illegal immigration has contributed mightily to depressing wages in this country and denying jobs and opportunities to Americans.

TAPPER: That's why I am asking.

PENCE: And Donald Trump is going to focus -- I know the media wants to focus on that one issue. Donald Trump will articulate a policy about how we deal with that population.

But I promise you, he is going to remain completely focused on American citizens...

TAPPER: Well...

PENCE: ... and people who are here legally, and how we get this country working for people who play by the rules.

TAPPER: I don't understand why -- I don't understand why it's the fault of the media for focusing on an issue that you're crediting Donald Trump for bringing to the fore.


TAPPER: The idea is, Mr. Trump won the primaries in no small way because he had this very forceful position, saying all 11 or 12 million undocumented immigrants will be forced to leave the country.

Now you, right this minute, are not saying that that's the policy. You're saying he's going to unveiling it in the next few weeks. It's 72 days until the election.


PENCE: Well, I -- you -- the way you characterize his position is one thing. I think he has been completely...

TAPPER: I just -- we just ran the clip.

PENCE: Look, Jake, he has been completely consistent in the principles that he has articulated.

Nobody was talking about illegal immigration when Donald Trump entered this campaign. He was attacked from day one for putting the whole issue of the violence that is derived from certain individuals that come into this country illegally on the table.

He has made it clear we are going to secure our borders, we're going to build a wall, we're going to enforce the laws of this country, stand up and uphold the Constitution of the United States of America.

But what you see going on right now -- and I think, at a certain level, it's very refreshing, because it's the Donald Trump that I see every day -- is, you see a CEO at work. You see someone who is engaging the American people, listening to the American people.

He is hearing from all sides. But I promise you, he is a decisive leader. He will stand on the principles that have underpinned his commitment to end illegal immigration in this country. And that's what people will learn more about in the days ahead.

But let's be clear.


PENCE: Hillary Clinton supports open borders, amnesty and even wants to increase Syrian refugees to this country by 550 percent.


PENCE: You couldn't have a more clear choice between Donald Trump and I, who will end illegal immigration in this country, and -- and Hillary Clinton, who will pursue more of the same, executive amnesty, open borders, which the American people are sick and tired of.


TAPPER: To be clear, you did not address the issue about whether or not there will be a deportation force removing the 11 or 12 million. But I don't want to spend the entire interview on that one subject.

Let's turn to the children born in the United States to undocumented immigrants. Donald Trump said last year that these children -- it's about 4.5 million of them -- are not citizens. Take a listen.


TRUMP: I don't think they have American citizenship. We have to start a process where we take back our country. Our country is going to hell.


TAPPER: Is it still the position of the Trump/Pence campaign that children born in this country, in this country, to undocumented immigrants are not U.S. citizens?

PENCE: Well, I think the whole question of anchor babies, as it's known, the whole question of citizenship, of natural-born Americans is a subject for the future.

I think the American people ought to ask it. We look at our whole immigration system and see whether that works and makes sense. But under the laws today in the United States of America -- I think what Donald Trump was referring to is, this is part of the issue that we need to deal with in this country.

But, look, I have to tell you, he is a -- he is a man who speaks his mind. And he has put this issue front and center with the American people. And I have to tell you, I -- I know how the media loves to come in and loves to, you know, divide the issues and -- and, frankly, I think, not you personally, Jake, but a lot like to see if they can drive wedges between people that support Donald Trump.


PENCE: The truth of the matter is, as I am traveling across the country, and -- and with Donald Trump and for Donald Trump, the American people hear him loud and clear.

Hillary Clinton is committed to amnesty and open borders and more of the policies that have harmed our economy, harmed American families and, in some cases, resulted in tragedy. Donald Trump is absolutely committed to securing our borders, having E-Verify system, standing by the Constitution, and reforming the immigration system in a way that works for American family.

TAPPER: I want to turn to Hillary Clinton and some of the really tough charges going back and forth between your campaign and her campaign.

She said this week Donald Trump is helping a radical fringe take over the Republican Party.

And take a listen to what your counterpart, Senator Tim Kaine, had to say just on Friday.


SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ku Klux Klan values, David Duke values, Donald Trump values are not American values.


TAPPER: What's your response to Senator Kaine?

PENCE: I think Senator Kaine's comments, Hillary Clinton's comments on Thursday night sound desperate to me, I mean, to be honest with you.

I don't talk a lot about the polls, Jake, but I know the polls are all closing up. And the fact that you see Democrats and Hillary Clinton and her running mate rolling out the same old playbook of racial divisiveness sounds a little bit to me like an act of desperation.

I mean, look, the -- the American people are sick and tired of politicians who seek to divide the people of this country to unite their supporters. And Donald Trump is reaching out.

TAPPER: Donald Trump called Hillary -- he called Hillary Clinton a bigot.

PENCE: Donald Trump has been reaching out...


TAPPER: Well, you just -- you just accused her of dividing people. He accused her of being a bigot. PENCE: Well, look, and that was on the day that Hillary Clinton

literally condemned not just Donald Trump, by the same terms, but also millions of Americans who long for a better future.

TAPPER: You think she was calling all Trump supporters racists?

PENCE: I think she was calling millions of Americans around this country who believe we can make America great again, who believe that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's policies have weakened America's place in the world and stifled America's economy, he -- she has put some sort of racist intention on those Americans.

I think that's deeply offensive. But here's the thing. The American people see right through it these days. And what you have in Donald Trump is someone who is reaching out, speaking boldly from the party of Lincoln, particularly to African-Americans and Latinos in this country, and saying, it doesn't have to be this way. It can be better.

I mean, think of the heartbreak in these communities...

TAPPER: But is...

PENCE: ... to be living in our inner cities, which -- which, in many African-American families, for now, generations have been in neighborhoods with failing schools, unsafe streets, no jobs and opportunities.

I mean, we're -- we're standing today on the 53rd anniversary of the "I Have a Dream" speech. And Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was one of the heroes of my youth. I walked across the Edmund Pettus Bridge with John Lewis on the 45th anniversary of Bloody Sunday. I think the progress in the civil rights movements is one of the great, great accomplishments in America.

TAPPER: That said, so, I understand that that means a lot to you, but the reason...

PENCE: But look at the reality -- look at the reality in the minority community today in many of our cities.

I was walking through neighborhoods in Indianapolis just a few short weeks ago, before this opportunity came into my life with Reverend Charles Harrison, part of a 10-point coalition. You stand with families on their front porches, they will tell you the schools are failing, and they won't give us educational choice. The streets aren't safe, and we get no change. And there's no jobs.


Donald Trump believes we can make America great again for every American, regardless of race or creed or color. And the only answer Hillary Clinton and her running mate have is more of the same kind of racial divisiveness and racial attacks. And I really think it's beneath the dignity...


TAPPER: With all due respect, sir, the reason that Tim Kaine said what he said is because David Duke is supporting your campaign. Take a listen.


DAVID DUKE, FORMER IMPERIAL WIZARD OF THE KU KLUX KLAN: I am overjoyed to see Donald Trump and most Americans embrace most of the issues that I have championed for years.


TAPPER: That must really bother you.

PENCE: It does really bother me.

And Donald Trump made it clear repeatedly in this week that not only does he denounce David Duke, but we don't want the support of people who think like David Duke.

But, look, look, people see the choreography, Jake. You and I have known each other a while. Hillary Clinton, not on that, but on the two speeches...


PENCE: Hillary Clinton has a really tough week, right, 15,000 e-mails coming out...

TAPPER: Bad week, sure.

PENCE: I mean, you have the Clinton Foundation, the -- more and more of the cascade of controversies coming out of here with the Clintons, you know, ducking and weaving, and not answering questions, more than 250 days since a press conference.

So, all of a sudden, here it comes. They roll out the politics of division with a speech Thursday night, and then her running mate comes out with those outrageous charges.

That -- I mean, the fact that -- that -- that an individual, a contemptible individual like that supports my running mate is no more relevant than the fact that the father of a man who killed 49 people in Orlando, Florida, was cheering Hillary Clinton at one of her rallies.

TAPPER: I know you want to talk about the Clinton Foundation. Let's take a very quick break. We will come back and then we will talk about that. I know you have some issues you want to discuss.

Stay with us.



NARRATOR: Hillary Clinton's corruption has been exposed again. Her Clinton Foundation slush fund sold access to the State Department.


TAPPER: A new Web ad from the Trump/Pence campaign.

And here to talk about it and much more is Governor Mike Pence of Indiana, Donald Trump's running mate.

What's the point exactly you're trying to make about the Clinton Foundation? And can you point to any actual evidence that, as secretary of state, she actually changed a policy because of this access that donors allegedly had?

PENCE: Well, it's a fair question.

But access is also very valuable. And this week, we learned from the Associated Press that more than half of the individual meetings that secretary of state granted during her tenure...

TAPPER: Not including government officials or foreign officials.

PENCE: Well, of course not.

TAPPER: Yes. Yes.

PENCE: These are individual meetings that she has discretion over.

More than half of those meetings were granted to individuals who contributed tens of millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation.

Look, you know, this has been unfurling in front of the American people, particularly over the last few weeks. This week, we found out 15,000 e-mails she didn't turn over. We also learned from a congressional investigation that these so-called e-mails on wedding plans and yoga, she eradicated with some high-tech software called BleachBit, which completely eliminates the capacity in most cases to recover them.

The simple fact is, this is becoming more and more clear through direct evidence in these e-mails that State Department officials under Secretary of State Clinton were extending access and special favors to major donors of the Clinton Foundation.

TAPPER: Can you point to any favors, though?

PENCE: Foreign -- foreign donors of the Clinton Foundation and major corporations. And your viewers should be reminded here that foreign donors cannot contribute to presidential...


PENCE: ... or federal campaigns. And so this becomes a conduit for people to gain access. And gaining access is a favor, Jake.

TAPPER: Mr. Trump's foundation gave $100,000 or so to the Clinton Foundation. Was he trying to gain access? Was he trying to gain a favor?

PENCE: I think Donald Trump has made it very clear that, through the course of his career, he has supported a broad range of initiatives and policies.

Just this last week, he contributed $100,000 to a little church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. He didn't do it publicly. You people found out about it. But when we were down there visiting families a little more than a week ago, he was impressed with the work that that church was doing, that Reverend Franklin Graham was doing.

TAPPER: Right, but why did he give money to the Clinton Foundation?

PENCE: And he just very quietly in the car said, "I am going to send $100,000."

TAPPER: But you're not comparing that to Mr. Trump's foundation -- giving money to the Clinton Foundation?

PENCE: Well, I'm just saying Donald Trump -- I know -- I know we want to make Donald Trump the issue on every issue.


TAPPER: No, you're making -- you're talking about the Clinton Foundation. I'm talking about the Clinton Foundation.

PENCE: I'm talking about foreign donors and corporate donors to the Clinton Foundation who the Associated Press this week was able to confirm were -- were more than half of the meetings, private meetings the secretary of state granted during her tenure.

And then we found out this week, remarkably -- and this is -- this just, I think, is -- is incredibly troubling to the American people. We found out the State Department now, even though they have been ordered to do it, will not provide the balance of her calendar until after the election.

You know, this is -- this is a -- this is an example of pay-to-play politics the American people are sick and tired of. And it's what Donald Trump and I are going to bring to a crashing end when he becomes president.

TAPPER: But you -- but you can't point to any policy change. You said access is the important thing.

PENCE: Well, I think that's the reason why we need to -- we need to have an independent special prosecutor in this case.

TAPPER: You were talking...

PENCE: The FBI, you know -- you know, a couple of months ago, the FBI wanted to initiate a public corruption investigation into the Clinton Foundation. And senior officials at the Obama Justice Department shut it down.

TAPPER: They said they had looked into it a year before and that there wasn't enough there.

PENCE: Well, they -- we heard -- it was reported publicly the FBI thought about opening a public corruption...

TAPPER: Yes, CNN broke the story.

PENCE: And I commend you for that.

But my point is that now this is exactly what the independent special prosecutor statute is for.


PENCE: The administration should appoint a special prosecutor.


And, frankly, one other thing on this. For the Clintons to say that, if she's elected president, they would recognize a conflict of interests in the Clinton Foundation, and so would be stepping away from it, former President Clinton, if -- if it would be a conflict of interests when she is president of the United States, why wasn't raising money from foreign donors a conflict of interests when she was secretary of state of the United States of America?

I mean, this -- the American people...


PENCE: ... see what's coming here.

TAPPER: I want to...

PENCE: And they're going to get more of the same if Hillary Clinton is elected president of the United States.

TAPPER: I want to ask you a few questions.

One is, you talked about the inner cities. There was a tragedy in Chicago on Friday. Nykea Aldridge, the cousin of NBA star Dwyane Wade, was shot and killed while pushing her instant child in a stroller.

Donald Trump's reaction to the news was this tweet: "Dwyane Wade's cousin was just shot and killed walking her baby in Chicago. Just what I have been saying. African-Americans will vote Trump, will vote Trump."

I know that, since then, he's made an effort to express sympathy and empathy.

But that initial tweet, do you think that was a presidential reaction to a tragedy?

PENCE: Well, right after that, he issued his -- a tweet expressing his prayers and his thoughts and his condolences.


TAPPER: But this is a pattern. When there is a tragedy, he sends a tweet talking about how this is going to help his campaign.

PENCE: Well, look, can I -- can I just make the point?

A lot of you people in the media spend more time talking about what Donald Trump said and tweeted in the last three days than you do focusing on what the Clintons have been up to for the last 30 years. So, that -- let me just stipulate to that.

On this, look, the -- Donald Trump has a plainspoken way about him. And -- and the -- the tragedy of a mother pushing her child on -- on the streets of Chicago, being shot and killed, as Nykea Aldridge was, just breaks my heart.

You have got a little one at home. We -- we have raised three kids. It's just unimaginable. But it's on top of the more than 2,700 shootings in Chicago...


TAPPER: Right, which is why so many people were offended when his action was: Vote Trump.

PENCE: Well, I don't -- the point Donald Trump is making is that we have a choice to make this fall.

You can go with the party that's been responsible for the liberal policies that apparently have been content with unsafe streets in Barack Obama's hometown of Chicago, where 2,700 people have been shot this calendar year alone.


TAPPER: Law enforcement in Chicago says a lot of those guns come from your home state.

PENCE: You have failing schools.

Well, you have tremendous gun control in Chicago. Let's be clear.

TAPPER: But not in Indiana, and a lot of them come over the border. That's what Chicago police say.

PENCE: OK. I -- in Indiana, we know what most Americans know, is that law -- that firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens makes our communities more safe, not less safe.

TAPPER: Not those guns that go over the border.

PENCE: I know the -- I know the president wanted to -- wants to blame-shift to Second Amendment rights.

TAPPER: I am just saying what Chicago police say.

But I want to ask you a question.

PENCE: The truth of the matter is, Donald Trump is laying out in that tweet, in short form -- and there's, what, 140 characters -- that we have a choice to make as a country.

We can continue with the leadership that's left us with dangerous streets in our cities, failing schools, no jobs, or we can -- we can go with someone who is committed to educational choice, for minority families and families all across this country...

TAPPER: Right.

PENCE: ... for a commitment to law and order and standing by our law enforcement community, committed to bringing jobs and opportunity and hope to every American, regardless of race and creed and color.

TAPPER: Governor, I need to ask you.

Your newly installed campaign CEO, Steve Bannon, is coming under a lot of scrutiny. There have been questions about a domestic violence arrest. There's been questions about accusations from his ex-wife of anti-Semitism.

Did you know any of this when he was hired?

PENCE: Well, I know -- I know Steve, Steve Bannon, has denied those charges.

I know he enjoys a very strong relationship with his ex-wife and their two wonderful kids. So -- and -- and...


TAPPER: Does it bother you at all, those charges?

PENCE: Well, I also know one other thing, is, I know the media loves to chase after these process stories, these staff stories.

But when I am traveling across the country, the American people are focused on their future. They're focused on the fact that this economy, we just rounded down the last quarter's economic numbers to 1.1 percent.

Real Americans haven't seen an increase in their wages in real terms for 10 to 15 years. I mean, I have to be honest with you. As I am traveling all over the country, people are coming up to me. They are responding to Donald Trump's broad-shouldered, plainspoken leadership that we can make America great again, we can be strong on the world stage, we can have an economy that works for every American.

And I think -- I think all of these process stories go by the wayside. And this election is going to be decided on... TAPPER: One more.

PENCE: ... whether we go with the status quo and failed policies, or whether we embrace real change and a stronger America.

TAPPER: One more process question, although I think you might enjoy this one more.

Debates are coming up.


TAPPER: Are you preparing for them?


TAPPER: Other than going on this show this morning, are you preparing...


TAPPER: Are you preparing for a rigorous discussion of issues and other issues, and other things?

PENCE: We are.


TAPPER: How are you doing that?

PENCE: We are.

Well, we just -- you know --

TAPPER: Get somebody playing Tim Kaine?

PENCE: We are talk to some people about doing that. And we'll be doing probably practice debates in about three or four weeks. But for now it's just a lot of -- a lot of cracking the books.

You know, I spent 12 years in Congress

TAPPER: Yes, I know.

PENCE: You know, it seemed longer. But I spent 12 years in Congress.

But, you know, refreshing and returning to those issues because I have been focused on leading the great state of Indiana the last four years. But also just, you know, preparing ourselves to take that opportunity to lay out Donald Trump's vision for this country.

It's a -- it is a positive vision, it's a broad-shouldered, optimistic vision and I look forward to being able to share the stage with Senate Kaine to do just that.

TAPPER: You've been very generous with your time. And we appreciate it. And thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Have fun out there on the campaign trail...

PENCE: Thanks (ph).

TAPPER: ... and good luck.

Coming up next, new details about the Clinton Foundation's future. Can it avoid conflicts of interest if its name sake retakes the White House?




CLINTON: I have been asked many, many questions in the past year about emails. And what I've learned is that, when I try to explain what happened, it can sound like I am trying to excuse what I did. And there are no excuses. I know there is a lot of smoke, and there's no fire.


TAPPER: Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton talking about her family's charitable foundation and emails and more amidst charges the donors to the foundation received preferential treatment from her state department. Now Mrs. Clinton says the foundation will be looking for partners to separate its work from her potential work in the White House.

Joining me now to talk about all of this is Corey Lewandowski, former Trump campaign manager and CNN commentator who we should know is still receiving severance payments from the Trump campaign. Antonio Villaraigosa, former Los Angeles mayor, a Hillary Clinton supporter. Matt Bai, political columnist for "Yahoo News," and Abby Phillip, political reporter for the "Washington Post." Thank one and all for being here.

First of all, Mr. Mayor, let me just say there's a lot of smoke but no fire? That sounds like there is a lot of appearance of conflict of interest but there is no actually -- and no actual conflict of interest. That's not like a good bumper sticker for her.

ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA (D), FORMER MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES: I heard you interview Governor Pence for, what, a half hour, and he acknowledged that there is no fire there, that there is no quid pro quo, that there have been meetings, yes, and nothing more. And it's as simple as that.

TAPPER: Corey.

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think, what we see in the latest round of emails and ABC reported on this last night is that Doug Band of the foundation had asked specifically that major donors be given either access specifically a sit at the vice president's table, in a particular dinner in January of 2011 -- TAPPER: Yes, Judith Rodin of the Rockefeller Foundation.

LEWANDOWSKI: Yes, that's right. Or that a message be passed on to an ambassador to Malta, that's very specific. Those are specific action items that a person who is not giving to the foundation (INAUDIBLE) have access to the secretary of state for. So that seems to be very much to me like quid pro quo.

TAPPER: Well, you know what I can't find in the "ABC News" story by my good friend David Muir (ph) is evidence that any of this stuff was actually carried out. That's not to say it wasn't but I couldn't find evidence that it was.

ABBY PHILLIP, WASHINGTON POST NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Right and I think that's, by and large, what we have seen from a lot of the emails.

There were a lot of the requests made many of them were ignored or blown off or whom (INAUDIBLE) Clinton (INAUDIBLE) said, I'll look into it, and then she never did. But at the same time it showed that there was an effort being made to do some of these things.

And, you know, I think the Clinton campaign focuses a lot about did she get gain, financial gain, did they get financial gain, did donors get financial gain? But that's not the only way that you throw around influence in this town. It's not just about money. It's also about can you sit next to the vice president. It's clear that some of these donors did want some of that kind of access.

TAPPER: Matt, look at this q-poll we're (ph) about to pull up there, 60 percent of likely voters say Hillary believes that the rules do not apply to her -- is a problem for her campaign.

MATT BAI, YAHOO NEWS NATIONAL POLITICAL COLUMNIST: It is. And if you are a Republican operative, you've got to want to put your head through a wall right now, Jake. Because this election really should be a referendum on the party in power, and she has the burdens of incumbency -- the referendum on her and her trustworthiness and of course generally not. Somehow Donald Trump has managed to make this a referendum every day or every week, on his fitness to serve. And it's -- it's -- it's -- you know, you see the problems (ph) she (ph) has (ph). It's a winnable election for the Republicans.

TAPPER: What do you say to that, Corey?

LEWANDOWSKI: Here's what I think. I think if you look at it, including Democrats and one of the most recent polls, is the NBC polls, 11 percent of the American people think she is honest and trustworthy. That's the same amount of the American people who think Congress is actually doing a good job.

I mean, Congress is fundamentally broken. The people including Democrats who think Hillary Clinton is honest and trustworthy is 11 percent. Is that the leader that we want for our country is someone who cannot be trusted? TAPPER: Is it enough, Mr. Mayor, for Hillary Clinton to keep changing the subject back to Donald Trump? Does she not need to do more to reassure voters that they can trust her?

VILLARAIGOSA: Well, of course she needs to do more and is doing more. I trust her. I know her. I am part of that 40 percent.

When you look at Mr. Trump, what "Washington Post," political facts say 75 percent -- upwards of 70 percent of what comes out of his mouth is either a lie or misrepresentation of fact. It's hard to trust someone like that. And so certainly the issue of trust is going to be front and center in this campaign. She is addressing it, from my vantage point I think she is doing it well.

TAPPER: Do you think she's doing it well, Abby?

PHILLIP: Well, what's remarkable about the same Quinnipiac poll is that she's actually leading Trump by 10 points in that poll.

TAPPER: It's a good context.

PHILLIP: Despite the fact that these numbers are absolutely in the garbage can. They're terrible for her. But it just illustrates how difficult it will be for Trump to ratchet those already very high numbers even higher to the point that they actually start to impact her standing in the overall race.


PHILLIP: It's hard to do that because many voters, the way that they view Hillary Clinton as untrustworthy, is very much baked into how they view her as a person, and yet 10-point lead in that poll.

BAI: I'd tell you why else it matters. There is a line in "Hamilton" -- you've seen "Hamilton"? You know, George Washington says in the "Hamilton," winning is easy, son, governing is harder.

TAPPER: Right.

BAI: I'm not saying she's going to govern. This is long way to go in the race. It can tighten up. But this -- if I were them I would be thinking about the implications of this trustworthiness issue. If you get by because Donald Trump doesn't meet the bar that people need for an alternative, how are you going govern this country in the state that it's in with those numbers and what are you going to do to change that perception and send a reassurance to the public?

TAPPER: Everybody stay right here. After the break Donald Trump says the shooting of Dwyane Wade's cousin shows why African-Americans will vote for him. Will that pitch work? That is next.



(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: The cousin of NBA star Dwyane Wade, a great guy, Dwyane Wade, was the victim of a tragic shooting in Chicago. She was the mother of four and was killed while pushing her infant child in a stroller just walking down the street. Shot. It breaks all of our hearts to see it. It's horrible. It's horrible. And it's only getting worse.


TAPPER: That was Republican nominee Donald Trump expressing sympathy after the tragic murder of NBA star Dwyane Wade's cousin on the street in Chicago. His tweet after the shooting didn't necessarily seem as delicate and heartfelt. I think it's fair to say.

I'm back with the panel now. And, Corey, let me start with you. The controversial tweet that he sent initially, "Dwayne Wade's cousin"-- Dwyane was misspelled -- "was just shot and killed walking her baby in Chicago. Just what I have been saying. African-Americans will vote Trump."

Two hours later he sent on another tweet attempting to clean it up, expressed sympathy. Can you understand why there were so many people that took the tweet and thought it was just callous?

LEWANDOWSKI: I can but let's look at the bigger picture.

Donald Trump has talked about this. The number of U.S. soldiers who've died in Afghanistan from 2001 to 1015 is actually less than the number of people who've been killed in Chicago from 2012 to 2016. We need to do something to protect our families. We need to do something to protect our homeland. And one more person dying in Chicago is one too many.

And what he is talking about and what he has said is he is doing outreach to the African-American community. The last poll has him at 8 percent which, granted, is a long way to go. But Mitt Romney got 6 percent. John McCain got 4 percent. He is making inroads into that community because people are tired of not being able to walk the streets with safety.

TAPPER: What do you say, Mr. Mayor?

VILLARAIGOSA: I have no evidence to indicate that he's making inroads into the African-American community. When he speaks about African- Americans he almost always speaks about crime and poverty and welfare. And when he speaks about them, he usually speaks to a white audience. So I don't have any indication that he is moving up in the polls with respect to African-Americans.

TAPPER: A long time ago, Abby. I thought that Donald Trump actually could potentially do better with the African-American community than Mitt Romney or John McCain. But it doesn't seem to have taken place.

PHILLIP: Not at all. I mean, it really goes back all the way to the birther stuff. I mean, that really is, for many African-Americans in this country a pretty clear -- they view it very clearly as an attempt to delegitimize the first African-American president. But beyond that, I mean, I think the challenge for Donald Trump is also that African-Americans also view the country and its future much more positively than other groups, especially than whites. And so it's hard to take a message that is fundamentally pessimistic to African-Americans, who view themselves as moving toward a country that is better for them, on average, than it was in the past.

This idea of make America great again is challenging for Donald Trump to transfer to the African-American community because, when they look back 40 years, they see America that didn't work for them, that wasn't great for them. They -- many of them were in segregated schools, segregated communities, didn't have the full right to vote. They were living in poverty not just because of the leadership in urban cities but because of laws and regulations, discrimination in lending and in housing that held back African-American communities.

So they are looking forward. And it's -- and they're seeing not a perfect country but a country that is getting better.

TAPPER: Matt, how do you view Mr. Trump's outreach to the African- American community in the last week or so?

BAI: You know, (INAUDIBLE) put your finger (INAUDIBLE). I thought he could make better inroads. As a general rule it seems preordained that I am wrong about everything regarding Donald Trump.


And one thing, you know -- I'll say that up front. And one thing, I thought, I think you're getting at is that he would be a much stronger, more inclusive general election candidate. Because I thought that after the primaries were done -- I don't like the word -- there's not so much pivot. I actually thought he was just going to respawn.

I don't think he has a strong ideology. And I actually think he is such a good entertainer and understands audiences so well. I thought he would have a better sense of who his wider audience was.

I just I think it's late. I don't think anything they've done since this latest change in leadership is the wrong instinct actually. I disagree with people who think it's crazy. I don't. I just think it's late and I think the window at some point is closing.

TAPPER: Corey, I'd give you the quick last word.

LEWANDOWSKI: I think what Donald Trump is asking for is an opportunity, 26.4 percent of the African-American population lives in poverty right now. There are 4 million more African-Americans (INAUDIBLE) on food stamps (INAUDIBLE) Barack Obama took office.

What he is saying is give me an opportunity to try and make a change. That's what he is asking for. And I think both Republicans and Democrats have taken the African-American vote for granted for a long time.

TAPPER: All right. Great panel. Thank you so much Mr. Mayor, Corey, Abby, Matt. Thank you so much.

After the break one of the candidates for the White House started out drawing cartoons and he still is today.


Who is doodling on the campaign trail? It's the subject of this week's "State of the Cartoonion," next.



TAPPER: Normally, this is where we run our weekly "State of the Cartoonion" feature in which I attempt to draw cartoons about the news. But we found out that one of the candidates also fancies himself something (ph) of a cartoonist. So we're going to feature him in this week's "State of the Cartoonion."


TAPPER (voice-over): Reaction of editorial cartoonist to Donald Trump's selection of Mike Pence says his running mate has not been particularly enthusiastic. "He picked the bland, normal-looking guy," wrote J.D. Crowe. But Pence himself has been known to put pen to paper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pence is also a former radio talk show host and cartoonist.\


PENCE: Maybe something people don't know as much about me as they might otherwise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could use some humor every now and then.


PENCE: You bet.

TAPPER: This week the Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis Special Collections' Twitter sent out a few of the cartoons that Pence drew, "Law School Daze," in the newspaper for I.U. Law during the 80's. Grades are up. Speak for yourself, pal. I don't care what you think, I want to know what the court thinks.

Pence imagined a legal magazine for kids, "Torts Illustrated." And when it came to discerning gross income or not in tax law, he brought in Obi Wan, use the code, Luke.

This good clean 80's humor is not being received glowingly today. "Uproxx" called it awkward. "Esquire" called it strange.

But even today, the governor is still drawing wherever he can find a canvass. Showing his skills on a pumpkin using the state attorney general as his muse around Halloween in 2013. And offering this self- portrait on an orange for one of our reporters on his campaign plan. As long as there are cartoonists like Mike Peters out there offering this version of Pence it's probably more fun for him to be the one holding the pen.


Thanks for watching.