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State of the Union
Interview With Del. Stacey Plaskett (D-VI); Interview With Fmr. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ); Interview With Rep. Jamie Raskin (D- MD); Interview With Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY); Interview With Former U.S. Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers; Interview With Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE). Aired 12-1p ET
Aired June 12, 2022 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:15]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Insiders speak. The January 6 Committee makes its case in prime time.
IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF DONALD TRUMP: I respect Attorney General Barr.
WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I told the president it was bullshit.
BASH: What evidence is still to come?
I will speak exclusively to January 6 Committee member Congressman Jamie Raskin and Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez next.
And soaring costs. Gas prices hit a record $5 a gallon. President Biden says it's largely outside his control.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have never seen anything like Putin's tax on both food and gas.
BASH: How much higher will prices go? Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers joins me to discuss in moments.
Plus: political price. He came out for tighter gun laws after Buffalo in Uvalde and is now going to be out of a job. I will speak exclusively to Republican Congressman Chris Jacobs, and I will sit down with mass shooting survivor and activist Gabby Giffords.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is hopeful.
We have breaking news this morning. A bipartisan group of senators is on track to announce the outlines of an agreement to address gun violence as soon as today. That's according to sources familiar with the talks. The sources tell me and Manu Raju that it is an agreement in principle
only at this point, and that legislation is not yet written. And because getting any changes to gun law is so dicey, sources say that negotiators are working to get 10 Republican senators to sign on to an agreement before it's announced to show they can get a filibuster- proof 60 votes.
Here's what sources involved tell us the plan includes, funding to incentivize states to implement -- quote -- "red flag laws," expanding a 10-state pilot program on mental health to all 50 states, allowing juvenile records to be searched during background checks for those under 21, strengthening the background check system, and increasing funding for school security.
The outline is not expected to include a renewal of so-called assault weapons, that ban, or raising the age to purchase a firearm.
While this would be just an outline, any agreement in the Senate on gun safety would be hugely significant, after years of inaction and two tragedies, in Buffalo and Uvalde.
This news on a compromise in the Senate comes as the House focuses on the January 6 Committee hearings, which more than 20 million Americans watched in prime time Thursday night. The hearings continue tomorrow morning and will focus on former President Donald Trump's election lies.
Here with me exclusively is the January 6 Committee member Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin.
Thank you so much for joining me. We're going to get to January 6, of course, but, quickly, based on what you just heard, is that a compromise you could vote on?
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, we would certainly vote on it and work on it.
America is suffering a massacre pretty much every day now. There have been more massacres than days in 2022. So, the House has been pushing for far more sweeping action, for universal violent criminal background checks.
BASH: But this is a baby step you would vote yes on?
RASKIN: It's moving in the right direction. We're glad that the Senate is finally awake about this.
BASH: You said on January 6 that the committee's public hearings would blow the roof off the House. We're about to enter a new week of hearings.
Is the most explosive testimony, in your opinion, still to come?
RASKIN: Well, what we're going to do is spell out and unspool all of the details related to the things that Chairman Thompson and Vice Chair Cheney laid out. So I think it continues to be an absolutely shocking event in American
history that there was an attempted political coup organized by the president of the United States in order to overthrow a presidential election to stay in office, to seize the presidency.
And it's equally shocking that insurrectionary mob violence would be used as part of that plan in order to forestall the counting of Electoral College votes and to block the transfer of power.
So I know that our first hearing pierced the sound barrier. People are paying attention. But Americans need to pay further attention, because the danger is still out there.
I mean, there was -- I just read this morning that, in Idaho, there was an LGBTQ Pride Day and a riot planted by domestic violent extremist groups, the same kinds of groups that were mobilized for the assault on the Capitol.
[12:05:00]
BASH: Well, let me ask you about the hearing coming tomorrow.
It's going to focus on misinformation and election fraud. Your committee says that Trump -- quote -- "purposefully" -- "purposely," rather, spread false information.
Can you prove that Donald Trump knew he lost, while he was publicly saying that he won?
RASKIN: I think we can prove to any reasonable, open-minded person that Donald Trump absolutely knew, because he was surrounded by lawyers, including the attorney general of the United States, William Barr, telling him in no uncertain terms, in terms that Donald Trump could understand, this is B.S.
He heard it from the White House counsel. He heard it from all of the lawyers who threatened to resign if he staged his little mini-coup against the Department of Justice by installing someone that would go along with his fairy tale about there having been electoral fraud and corruption.
So, yes, I think any reasonable person in America will tell you he had to have known he was spreading a big lie. And he continues to spread it to this very day. He continues to foist that propaganda on his followers.
BASH: Your colleague who's also on the panel with you Elaine Luria said this week that she thinks with Donald Trump -- quote -- "met" -- she thinks that Donald Trump -- quote -- "met the threshold" for criminal behavior.
So, you know this. Indicting a former president has not happened in American history. You are a constitutional lawyer and professor. Is a criminal referral of a former president the right thing to do in this case? RASKIN: Well, there's a statutory authority we have for criminal
referral for people who commit contempt against Congress. And that's what we did with people like Navarro and Meadows and Bannon and so on.
BASH: But they're not a former president.
RASKIN: Right.
There's not a specific statutory provision for just referring crimes to the Department of Justice. I suppose our entire investigation is a referral of crimes, both to the Department of Justice and to the American people, because this is a massive assault on our -- on the machinery of American democracy, when you have a sitting president who tries to overthrow the majority in the Electoral College of his opponent, who beat him by more than seven million votes.
BASH: I guess the question is, knowing what you know and knowing what the American people will see in these hearings, do you believe that the Justice Department should indict the former president?
RASKIN: One of the conventions that was crushed during the Trump administration was respect by politicians for the independence of the law enforcement function. And so I'm going to try to observe that.
Attorney General Garland is my constituent, and I don't browbeat my constituents. I think that he knows, his staff knows, the U.S. attorneys know what's at stake here. They know the importance of it. But I think they're rightfully paying close attention to precedent and history, as well as the facts of this case.
So we have laid out in different legal pleadings the criminal statutes that we think have been violated. And Judge Carter in California said he thought it was likely that President Trump committed federal offenses.
BASH: I want to ask you about pardons.
You revealed this week that multiple Republican members of Congress sought pardons from President Trump after the insurrection. How many of your colleagues in Congress did that? And what evidence do you have? Because you know that Congressman Scott Perry is denying it.
RASKIN: Yes.
Well, the seeking of pardons is powerful demonstration of the consciousness of guilt, or at least the consciousness that you may be in trouble. And that's what's so shocking about this. It's not just one. It's...
BASH: And you have evidence that has happened?
RASKIN: It is multiple members of Congress, as the vice chair said, at our opening hearing.
And, all in due course, the details will surface.
BASH: So, yes, there's evidence?
RASKIN: We're everything we're doing is documented by evidence.
Unlike the big lie, which is based on nonsense, as former Attorney General Barr said, everything that we're doing is based on facts. And this is a bipartisan investigation, which is determined to ferret out all of the facts of what happened.
BASH: Before I let you go, I want to ask about something that you were carrying in your pocket, a copy of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. And you named your late son, Tommy, after him.
Why did you have that with you Thursday night?
RASKIN: Well, because we did name tommy after Tom Paine.
And what we're going to need to get through this struggle in our history is common sense, the sense that we all have in common about what facts are and about what the truth is, and then common sense about how to move forward pragmatically as Americans. That's what we need, not lies, not conspiracy theory, not propaganda and disinformation.
BASH: Congressman, thank you so much for coming on. Appreciate it.
RASKIN: Thank you for having me.
BASH: Thank you.
And my next guest says she feared for her life on January 6.
Democratic Congresswoman of New York Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is joining me.
[12:10:00]
First, I would just want to ask about your personal reaction as you watched, especially given that you told me last year you thought that you might be killed or even raped during the riot on January 6.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Yes.
Well, I think my reaction was a lot of the American people's reaction. Rewatching that footage, it almost felt -- especially when you consider the disinformation and misinformation campaign that happened immediately afterwards to try to minimize the scale and the severity of what happened.
We have been pounded by messages from right-wing disinformation networks that this was not a big deal, that January -- even from members of Congress, that it was just a tourist visit.
And so I think, especially in the wake of that year of people trying to minimize what had happened, rewatching that footage was, I think, just -- it was like bringing everything from that day back again, not just for myself, but I also know for staff that were there that day, for support staff that were working there, for members of Congress that were there, and for the entire country that -- including many veterans that were watching on television, wondering, how could this be us?
And so I think it was an incredibly evocative and physically resonant moment for many of us. But it was a reminder of how severe the moments of January 6 was and that this was an attempted coup of the United States of America.
BASH: Vice Chair Liz Cheney revealed that multiple Republican members of Congress asked for presidential pardons after January 6.
You went on Twitter and directly asked Republican Congressman Gaetz, Boebert, and Greene if they were the one to ask for pardons. Do you have a reason to believe that they were?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, we do know that Congresswoman Lauren Boebert, in the middle of all of that footage that we saw yesterday of people kind of coming into the Capitol, was actively tweeting the speaker's location, was tweeting evocative, really provocative statements, like this is 17 -- today is 1776.
And it very much, I believe, indicates a side here. And when you don't know which of your colleagues were part of a potential conspiracy, then we need to find out. And, frankly, from a lot of the behavior that we have seen, both in committee inside the workings of the House, I believe that every member of Congress should be able to answer that question.
I'm happy to answer this question. I know that Representative Gerry Connolly, Representative Chellie Pingree, we are more than willing to offer that we did not seek a pardon from the White House either before or after January 6, or, frankly, at any point in time.
And I believe that it's a very simple question that every single member of Congress should be able to answer.
BASH: Well, people like Scott Perry are -- they're denying it. You just don't believe them?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, we will see what the evidence that the committee lays out will be.
But if the committee, as indicated, has evidence that several members of Congress did seek a pardon, you do have Representative Perry refusing to comply with a bipartisan investigation into the events of January 6.
I believe that the committee would never make an allegation so serious without very substantial evidence to present to the American public.
BASH: Congresswoman, you heard my reporting about a framework for a bipartisan Senate deal on gun safety.
That bill -- that deal is not expected to include a so-called assault weapons ban or raising the age to buy a firearm. Would you vote for that compromise?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well, I think, when it comes to guns, we have to look at all of the options that we have at the table, recognizing that the Senate simply right now isn't capable of, I believe, passing the comprehensive legislation in all forms that is needed.
We have to look at the text. As you mentioned, the legislative text has not been put together. I am disappointed to hear vote a focus on increased criminalization and juvenile criminalization, instead of really having the focus on guns.
But the background checks provision is encouraging. So I think we need to really look at the text. And once we look at that text, I think we will be able to see if this legislation has been responsibly put together. And I hope -- it is my hope that it has been.
BASH: And, assuming that it has been, will you be a yes?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: You know, I believe that, if we can get background checks through, my hope -- my hope is that it's a yes.
Again, if we're talking about just using this as an excuse to dramatically increase an enforcement mechanism that we know is not capable right now of preventing mass shootings, then I'm not really interested in doing something for show for the American public.
I'm interested -- I'm really interested in passing a solution for the American public. And we have had -- even the police department from the Buffalo mass shooting came and testified before the House Oversight Committee, and they said: More of us is not going to help.
[12:15:10]
Increased hardening targets, while there's something to be said for that, at the end of the day, what we need to address in mass shootings is the widespread availability of guns.
BASH: Yes. I want to move on.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And so...
BASH: I'm sorry.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes, of course.
BASH: I want to move on, but it just sounds like -- it sounds like you're saying that, if it does something, you're OK with a baby step now, as opposed to what you actually want, because you recognize the politics of the Senate?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes, if we get a real baby step...
BASH: OK.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: ... not a -- not kind of a distraction, I think, from the solution. BASH: OK.
I want to turn to New York politics. This week, you endorsed progressive New York state Senator Alessandra Biaggi. She's trying to unseat your Democratic colleague Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney.
Here's what President Obama's former campaign manager Jim Messina said about that. He said: "This is counterproductive. The Supreme Court is about to outlaw abortion. We could lose both houses. So we are going to focus our time running against each other? Now we're primarying committed progressives, because why? If we lose the House, it's because of dumb stuff like this."
What do you say to him?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: You know, I think we have seen from prior primaries throughout this year that a motivated, young, multiracial, multiclass base is exactly what the Democratic Party needs in order to win in November.
We have seen these with the electric victories of representative -- representatives, hopefully, to be Summer Lee, as well as Greg Casar out in Austin, that, when we are able to elect representatives that excite the Democratic base, that excite young people, that excite a multiclass, multiracial coalition, then that puts us in an even better position to win in November.
I think, right now, there are a lot of voters at home that have quite a bit of anxiety about the enthusiasm right now in terms of turnout for the Democratic Party. And I think one of the best things that we can do is elect people with a proven record of being able to excite a base and turn it out.
BASH: And you're making...
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And I do know that Alessandra Biaggi can do that.
BASH: You're making a statement, of course, by endorsing somebody who wants to beat and take out a member of your own party leadership, the very guy who is trying to get Democrats elected to keep control of the House.
You're obviously comfortable with that.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: You know, I believe that, every single year, every single one of us as a voter has the possibility to elect a representative that best suits them.
And I have been primaried by the Democratic establishment. I had a $3 million-plus primary challenge in 2020. And I took my case to my constituency. And I think what's really important here is that we -- I don't believe that, if you get elected wants to Congress, that we should be elected in perpetuity forever, and that our party is changing.
Our party's dynamic. And, right now, millennials are deeply underrepresented in Congress, compared to baby boomers and Gen X'ers back when they were our age, frankly.
And, at the end of the day, we need to have a generational shift in the United States Congress in order for us to have a policy shift in the United States Congress.
BASH: Before we go, I just want to ask about President Biden. He is saying he's going to run again in 2024. Will you support him?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: You know, if the president chooses to run again in 2024 -- I mean, first of all, I'm focused on winning this majority right now and preserving a majority this year in 2022.
So we will cross that bridge when we get to it. But I think, if the president has a vision, then that's something certainly we're all willing to entertain and examine when the time comes.
BASH: That's not a yes.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes, I think we should endorse when we get to it.
But I believe that the president has been doing a very good job so far. And should he run again, I think that -- I think it's -- we will take a look at it.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: OK.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: But, right now, we need to focus on winning a majority, instead of a presidential election.
BASH: Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Of course. Thank you so much.
BASH: And you can tune in Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. Eastern for coverage of the next hearing of the January 6 Committee. CNN will carry that live with all of the best reporting and analysis.
A Republican lawmaker from Buffalo, New York, said, enough is enough on gun violence. What happened next abruptly changed his political career.
I will talk to Congressman Chris Jacobs exclusively next.
And he predicted the rise of inflation, so where does he think the economy is headed now? Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:23:18]
BASH: Welcome back to "State of the Union." We're back with our breaking news, Senate negotiators have reached a bipartisan deal on guns, that includes the backing of 10 Senate Republicans.
Republican Senate Leader Mitch McConnell just released the statement on the negotiating group and he said, quote, I continue to hope their discussions yield a bipartisan product that makes significant headway on key issues like mental health and school safety, respects the second amendment, earns broad support in the Senate, and makes a difference for our country.
This is the closest the Senate has come in years to any action on gun violence. Joining me now is one of the Democratic senators involved in these negotiations, Chris Coons of Delaware. Thank you so much for jumping on with us. I appreciate it, Senator.
So first of all, tell us about these negotiations, how you got to the agreement that you released just minutes ago.
SEN. CHRIS COONS, (D) SIGNED ONTO GUN SAFETY DEAL: Well, Dana, thank you for a chance to be on. I am so grateful for the leadership of Senators Chris Murphy and John Cornyn, for Senator Dick Blumenthal and Lindsey Graham. Senators Murphy and Blumenthal are from Connecticut. They are Democrats who since Sandy Hook have been working tirelessly to try and make progress on gun safety.
On some level, we owe some real thanks here to Senators Joe Manchin and Pat Toomey, a bipartisan pair who after Sandy Hook opened the door to making progress on background checks and Republican Senators Tillis and Cornyn were critical to the negotiations here.
There's been a core group negotiating now for some time since the horrific shootings in Uvalde and in Buffalo. I think every American was touched by the cruelty, the senselessness of the violence that cut down Black Americans who were shopping at a grocery store on a weekend, and then innocent children at an elementary school and the teachers who sought to protect them.
Here in Delaware, there was a large March for Our Lives yesterday on the National Mall in Washington, in towns and cities across the country. And that's something that's happened every year since the massacre in Parkland.
After the Florida shooting, the Parkland shooting, then Governor Rick Scott signed into law a so-called red flag law, a law that with due process protections makes it possible for local law enforcement to remove a gun or guns from someone who's monstrously (ph) a threat to themselves and others. We've got that law here in Delaware. There's 19 states and the District of Columbia that have that law. If it had been in place in the states of New York and in Texas, it's possible that that would have helped prevent these mass shootings in Buffalo and Uvalde.
There's another provision of this framework, Dana, that we've just released that includes an expanded waiting period, a strengthened background check for anyone 18 to 21 seeking to buy a long gun. Let me just say, there's still a lot of work to do, there's still a long way to go but I'm really encouraged by today's announcement. BASH: No question, and I want you to talk about the change in strategy
among you and your fellow Democrats on this issue. You, apparently led by Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, decided to basically take what you can get. You need a partner in that strategy, you need a partner in those negotiations and those, of course, are Republicans, but to that end, the notion of an assault weapons ban wasn't on the table in these negotiations. Even what you just talked about, a federal red flag law wasn't in these negotiations, isn't part of the deal or even raising the age from 18 to 21, I realize that there are -- there will be strengthened background checks for younger people but just simply raise the age which certainly, I'm sure you wanted, wasn't part of this.
Talk about the change in how you and your fellow Democrats approach these gun talks.
[12:25:00]
COONS: Well, Dana, over the last decade, there's been attempt after attempt to pass a broader, stronger provision such as you just described. The House just sent over to us a broader and stronger bill that I and I think every Democrat in our group would have supported, although I don't speak for all of them. Something that would have gotten the support of the majority of Democrats, but politics, Dana, is the art of the possible. And frankly, it really helped to have Senator John Cornyn, a conservative aggressive Republican from Texas. I have legislated with John on a number of issues. In fact, the last bipartisan bill relating to gun safety to get to President Biden's desk was a bill that Senator Cornyn and I wrote, worked on, and got included in the Violence Against Women Act. It was the NICS Denial Notification bill that's now law.
Before that, he worked closely with Senator Chris Murphy on the Fix NICS law, it was critically helpful to have Senator Cornyn, a member of the Judiciary Committee, a tough on crime conservative Republican making it clear what was possible and what might yet more than 10 Republican Senate votes. He was the Whip of the Senate Republican Congress. The person who corrals votes for the leadership, and so he had a very well defined sense, he and Senator Tillis, at what was possible.
And I think the approach that Senator Murphy and Senator Sinema took as they were initially negotiating with Tillis and Cornyn was, let's explore what's possible, what can get more than 10 Republican votes because frankly, to come up short in this moment to deliver literally nothing again was just too hard a prospect to contemplate.
BASH: Senator, I want to read you something I got from a Republican aide involved in these negotiations who said, this agreement is in principles, not legislative texts, meaning in English. We don't have the details of this.
[12:30:07]
And this aide says...
COONS: That's right.
BASH: ... the details will be critical for Republicans, particularly the firearms-related provisions. One of more -- one or more of these principles could be dropped if the text is not agreed to. So it's very delicate still?
COONS: That's right. There's a lot of work still to do to take this framework agreement and reduce it to legislative language. One of the approaches that was followed here was to try as much as possible to take existing pieces of legislation.
So, for example, Senator Stabenow and Senator Blunt have a piece of legislation for significantly expanding community mental health access. There's already a successful demonstration program that they wrote together that exists in 10 states. This proposal is part of President Biden's budget proposal, and it would cost about $7 billion to expand nationally, 24/7 access to high-quality mental health care. That's one of the key provisions of this. But part of the advantage is it's a provision that's already well known, well written, clearly has bipartisan support.
So there are provisions that will be tricky. There's likely to be a provision around straw purchasers and increasing some of the penalties. There's likely to be a provision around the definition of what it means to be engaged in the business of selling firearms that would help somewhat with the gun show loophole, for example. Those will be difficult.
And we shouldn't -- we shouldn't take a victory lap yet. But I'm so grateful for the leadership that senators like Chris Murphy and John Cornyn have shown in getting us to this point. And I'm optimistic that the pressure that we are all feeling from our constituents to act and to deliver real results will get us to the president's desk with legislation this time.
BASH: Senator, we're almost out of time. You just heard Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, her answer on whether she supports President Biden for re-election in 2024. You are one of his closest allies in the Senate. You sit in his seat. Are you confident that he will have broad support within the Democratic Party if he follows through and he does run for reelection?
COONS: I am. Look, President Biden is just now returning from a very successful Summit of the Americas. Before that, he was in the Indo- Pacific visiting with our vital partners in Asia. And I think he's shown an incredible record of leadership on confronting Russian aggression in Ukraine.
BASH: And...
COON: But, domestically, we have a plan for how to tackle inflation, prescription drug prices, health care costs, prices at the pump. Republicans have no plan. And I think President Biden has earned the respect and support of the Democrats in Congress and across our country.
BASH: And, Senator, just to be clear, your understanding is that President Biden will seek another term?
COONS: Well, I'm not here to make a campaign announcement on his behalf, Dana...
(LAUGHTER)
COONS: ... but, yes, that's my understanding. Right now, he's planning on running for reelection.
BASH: Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, one of the negotiators on this framework bipartisan gun deal. I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you.
COONS: Thank you, Dana.
BASH: And my next guest predicted that President Biden's policies would add to inflation. So is the president doing enough now to bring prices back down? That's next.
[12:35:04]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.
The average price of gas in the U.S. hit $5 a gallon this weekend, according to the AAA. And high fuel costs are, in turn, increasing the price of consumer goods. The rate of inflation rose to a 40-year high last month.
Here with me now is former Treasury Secretary and economic adviser to many Democratic presidents Larry Summers.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Mr. Secretary, you have been predicting high inflation since last year. It is at 8.6 percent, the highest since December of 1981. Has it peaked, or could it climb even higher?
LAWRENCE SUMMERS, FORMER U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: Depends on -- depends on President Putin and what happens with oil prices.
There's a risk that it will rise higher. And I don't think it's likely to fall back very, very rapidly. I think the Fed's forecasts have tended to be much too optimistic there. And I hope they will recognize fully the gravity of the problem in their forecasts when they meet this week.
BASH: This weekend, gas prices did reach a stunning national average, $5 a gallon.
Is there anything more the Biden administration can actually do to bring those prices down?
SUMMERS: Not a lot.
[12:40:00]
It's -- the gas price piece of this is driven by the geopolitical developments around Ukraine. It's hypocrisy in the extreme when people need to say we -- say we need to stand strongly with Ukraine, and then blame the administration for the fact that gas prices are higher than they were a year ago.
I have been disappointed by some of the almost demagogic statements that have been made in that regard. I think there are things we can do about inflation. The president said something very important -- did something very important when he met with Chairman Powell and underscored his respect for the independence of the Fed and made clear he thinks the Fed needs to do whatever is necessary, even if it's painful, to reduce inflation.
I have advocated that we need a much more strategic tariff policy vis- a-vis China that takes tariffs down and therefore takes prices down for American consumers and for producers.
BASH: Should those tariffs be lifted?
SUMMERS: If we can pass -- many of them should be. Many, many of them should be.
We should focus on what's important, not raising input prices for American producers, so they're less competitive, which is what much of those tariffs do. Instead, we should be focusing on things that allow the leakage of key technologies to China and the like.
We should pass at long last some kind of legislation, ideally on a bipartisan basis, that would raise the vastly excessive Trump tax cuts, join the world in taxing corporations adequately, take down prescription drug prices. All of that would operate to reduce inflation. So there are things we can do.
And, Dana, if I can step out of my area for one -- for one second, I think the banana Republicans who are saying that what happened on January 6 was nothing or OK are undermining the basic credibility of our country's institutions. And that, in turn, feeds through for inflation, because if you can't trust the country's government, why should you trust its money?
So I think it's terribly important that we take the temperature down in Washington, that we recognize behavior that's just out of bounds of reasonable and decency, we give the Fed the room it needs, we bring down the budget deficit, we take down prices directly through prescription drugs.
This is a challenge that we can meet, if we're prepared to be serious about taking it on.
BASH: Secretary Yellen, who has the job you once had, said this week that -- quote -- "There is nothing to suggest a recession is in the works."
Do you agree with that? SUMMERS: No, I don't.
BASH: You think a recession is in the works?
SUMMERS: I think that when -- I think, when inflation is as high as it is right now, and unemployment is as low as it is right now, it's almost always been followed within two years by inflation, by recession.
I look at what's happening in the stock and bond markets. I look at where consumer sentiment is. I think there's certainly a risk of recession in the next year. And I think, given where we have gotten to, it's more likely than not that we will have a recession within the next two years.
That is something we can manage. We have had them for the whole history of the country. We need to be prepared and to respond quickly if and when it happens.
But I think the optimists were wrong a year ago in saying we'd have no inflation, and I think they're wrong now in being -- if anyone's highly confident that we're going to avoid recession.
BASH: Secretary Summers, thank you so much for joining me. Appreciate it.
SUMMERS: Thank you.
BASH: And we're here with our panel now.
Scott Jennings, the Republican here, I don't know if you wore yellow because you knew he was going to call you a banana Republican.
(LAUGHTER)
[12:45:00]
BASH: But what's your reaction to what he said about the economy, and specifically the notion of how mistrust, distrust in government is feeding into the bad economy?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, I think his words on recession are what I took away from that interview, because he was right about inflation.
When the Biden administration was calling it transitory or short term or not a real issue, Summers was right, they were wrong. I think the Biden administration's credibility on these things is very limited. And Summers has been right. So I think you ought to listen to Larry Summers about these issues, because he seems to -- he seems to know more than the secretary of the Treasury or the president of the United States about it.
And the economy -- the economic issues, by the way, just as a political matter, that's what's killing the Democratic Party, Joe Biden this midterm. This is the dominant issue. And as we head towards recession, even if it's not technically one right now, it certainly feels like one to people who are paying 150 bucks to fill up their car.
BASH: Congresswoman, you're on the ballot. What do you think?
DEL. STACEY PLASKETT (D-VI): Well, I agree that we are facing a tremendous inflation.
But what I think is also happening is that the Democrats, at least House Democrats, are doing all that they can to combat that for the American people, whether it's passing legislation in the House related to the shortage of baby formula, which got no support, practically, from Republicans, or price gouging, oil and gas price gouging, to combat that, where we're not one Republican supported it.
We recognize that there's an issue, and we are doing what's necessary to fight against it. What we are not getting is the support from Republicans, who say they are concerned with this, but are unwilling to do what's necessary to drive those prices down for the American people, which is evidenced by their nay votes on every measure that the experts say are necessary to bring down inflation.
FMR. REP. JANE HARMAN (D-CA): Yes, but wouldn't it be nice if a little bipartisanship broke out?
And I think it's possible. We're seeing it in the Senate over guns. And what I worry about, having served in the House for nine terms -- I call myself an escapee -- I then went to the oasis of the Wilson Center for a decade -- is that too much of this is the press release designed to blame the other side.
And I really think some of these problems are solvable. I saw us miss one when I was there, which is letting the federal government bargain for lower drug prices. And the mistake there was, President Obama decided he needed the support of big pharma. And they, of course, were against this.
And so he took it out of the bill that we passed, the health care bill, and it was a huge missed opportunity. And all I'm saying is, I agree that these are serious problems. I agree that Democrats have a lot of the good answers, but they don't have all the good answers.
And where are people who say, as the fellow you interviewed, Chris Jacobs, where are people who say, I'm putting the country first?
I just wish he were staying on Congress and trying to win again.
BASH: I want to turn to the January 6 hearings. We saw the first one in prime time this past week. We're going to see more starting tomorrow morning.
Alyssa, you worked for Mark Meadows on Capitol Hill. You had several jobs in the Trump administration. There's testimony that Meadows burned papers in his office after meeting with Scott Perry, who was working to challenge the 2020 election.
Do you think Mark Meadows destroyed documents?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I have heard that firsthand. I have heard it directly from someone with firsthand knowledge. So I believe that testimony that the committee has.
I want to note this, which is related to the two conversations we're having. Someone smarter than myself pointed out that, in 1974, during Watergate, inflation was 11 percent. Yet Congress still investigated the president and was able to work to address inflation and deal with the economy.
American voters, we know the midterms are going to be about gas prices. They're going to be about bringing down inflation, consumer costs. But we also need to get to the bottom of what happened on January 6. We cannot have a corrupt former president who, by the way, I think is going to announce in the coming months that he's in fact running again, get away with what was more or less a coup attempt against the United States.
So we need to be able to walk and chew gum. This is a moment we need bipartisanship. And, hopefully, we will see that as a result of these hearings.
BASH: I just want to go back to what you said.
You do feel confident that you know that Mark Meadows or you feel strongly that the person telling you is telling you the truth, that Mark Meadows destroyed documents?
FARAH GRIFFIN: I do. And I expect to see that come out in testimony from the committee.
And, again, this goes back to -- I was in the House when we wanted to hold Secretary Clinton accountable for destroying documents and not upholding federal record-keeping laws, which was...
BASH: Working for Mark Meadows.
FARAH GRIFFIN: Which was the right thing to do at that time.
I'm somebody who thinks we need to call balls and strikes and hold ourselves to the same standards. It's wrong when Republicans do it. It's wrong when Democrats do it.
[12:50:00]
BASH: You worked on the former president's impeachment trial.
PLASKETT: Mm-hmm.
BASH: What's your -- what's your reaction to what you're seeing on these hearings?
PLASKETT: Well, I think what we're seeing is the flesh and the full body of what the members of the impeachment trial stated. I think we're getting the full plethora of evidence to back up the claims that, one, the president knew that he had lost the election, the president knew that without -- going through the courts was not going to give him what he wanted, and, therefore, he needed another means.
And that was to use American people to attempt to overthrow the government and worked towards that end. And I think what is even more disturbing are individuals, Republicans who are not willing to come to the table and negotiate. And we're seeing that over and over again in so many instances, not willing to call balls and strikes, as the other panelist has said, and hold people accountable.
JENNINGS: I mean, it's very difficult to watch all this footage again and not feel your blood boiling all over again.
I mean, the thing about this issue is, it all happened live on television. We all watched it. It didn't happen behind closed doors. We're not hearing conflicting reports that...
BASH: And yet there are a lot of Republicans who say, don't believe you're lying eyes.
JENNINGS: And it -- and I don't know how you watch these videos, how you watch the testimony of Officer Edwards, who was completely compelling, and what she went through was horrific.
How do you -- how do you watch these things and not come to the conclusion that this was a -- this was a terrible day, that somebody caused it, and that something has to be -- something has to come from this?
Now, in the short term, there's nothing anyone can do about Donald Trump. He probably is going to run again. But, in the long term, Republicans are going to have to decide, are we going to look to the future here in 2024 and the future of this country? Are we going to relitigate the 2020 election and this chaos again?
I would submit it's better for the party to look to the future and put this behind us by acknowledging what happened.
HARMAN: Totally agree with that.
Liz Cheney was magnificent. And her use of the term dishonor was just chilling. And she did a magnificent job.
But, also, the footage speaks for itself. There's no counterfactual that's been offered. And I would recommend that the members of the committee stay off the airwaves, because they're perceived as spinning what they did. And it would be much better if they just put the material on over and over again.
I know there's an issue about, who's the audience? But I think you reach a bigger audience if you don't -- if you don't talk about it.
PLASKETT: I think one of the greatest things that's been shown by this hearing is hearing the words of Trump's inner circle himself.
HARMAN: Right.
PLASKETT: It's not coming from Democrats.
It's coming from those individuals who worked with the president to not just show -- of course, we all know that there was a riot, there was an insurrection. But giving the evidence that it was the president who directed this and who was the one who instigated it is most important.
BASH: Yes. We have to leave it there.
We're going to hear a lot more from people in the president's inner circle in the coming weeks in these hearings.
Thank you so much, all of you, for that great discussion.
And since she was shot at a constituent event in 2011, Gabby Giffords has made it her mission to combat gun violence while supporting gun ownership. She is hopeful that this time could be different.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:56:07]
BASH: More than 11 years ago, then-Congresswoman Gabby Giffords was shot in the head at a constituent event in Tucson, Arizona. Six others were killed.
Giffords' new life mission, combating gun violence, brought her back to the nation's capital this week to host a gun violence memorial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FMR. REP. GABRIELLE GIFFORDS (D-AZ): Parkland shooting, Uvalde, D.C., San Francisco, too much guns. Too much guns. Too much guns.
BASH: You survived gun violence.
GIFFORDS: Yes.
BASH: And you're here in a sea of flowers representing people who did not survive.
GIFFORDS: I'm sad. Move ahead. Do not look back. I want to make the world a better place.
BASH (voice-over): The former Arizona congresswoman leads a grassroots organization, Giffords...
GIFFORDS: Fight, fight, fight.
BASH: ... dedicated to stopping gun violence, the kind that almost took her life during a constituent event in 2011.
Her mission is simple.
GIFFORDS: Save lives, save lives, save lives.
ROBIN LLOYD, MANAGING DIRECTOR, GIFFORDS: I think we have made a lot of progress.
BASH: Robin Lloyd is the organization's managing director.
LLOYD: And that's what Gabby has really spent a lot of her time doing the past nine or 10 years, of really trying to draw attention to the issue, use her voice where she can to enact change.
And we have seen a lot of that happen.
BASH (on camera): I interviewed you in 2013, just two years after gun violence almost took your life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: If you were to name the one -- number one thing that Congress could do to prevent the kind of violence that you were the victim of, what would it be?
GIFFORDS: Background checks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: That hasn't happened.
GIFFORDS: No. No.
The Senate Republicans, I don't know. I don't know. It's divided, divided. Really tough.
LLOYD: But that's why we're here today. We're saying it's unacceptable that we have 45,000 Americans dead from gun violence.
The Senate needs to take action. They need to do something to show the American people that they're hearing their calls for action.
GIFFORDS: I'm optimistic. It will be a long, hard haul. But I'm optimistic.
LLOYD: There's so much common ground on this issue when we talk to Americans of all stripes, Democrats, Republicans, gun owners, veterans.
It's really only here in Washington that we see the level of divide. Out in the rest of the country, people agree that we can and should do something more. And it's not at odds with gun ownership.
BASH: Are you still a gun owner?
GIFFORDS: Yes. Yes. Wild Wild West. BASH: You still think people should have guns, just do it safely?
GIFFORDS: Yes. Yes.
BASH (voice-over): Activism is only part of Giffords' life today.
GIFFORDS: Yoga twice a week, French horn, Spanish lessons, ride my bike, the gym, Yo-Yo Ma.
LLOYD: Gabby recently performed with Yo-Yo Ma. It was a very special experience. She played the French horn.
BASH (on camera): You're living every day to the fullest?
(CROSSTALK)
GIFFORDS: Yes. Yes.
BASH: For you, being an advocate against gun violence, that's living every day to the fullest?
GIFFORDS: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
LLOYD: There's so much gun violence happening all the time, it's hard to wrap your head around these numbers.
And that's why it's so important that we have the 40,000 white roses behind us to represent the 40,000 Americans that died from gun violence last year, and now the new 5,000 orange roses to represent the increase in just one year of how many gun deaths we have had in this country.
[13:00:00]
GIFFORDS: Too much guns. No more. No more. No more.
LLOYD: Enough is enough.
GIFFORDS: Enough is enough.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Thank you for spending your Sunday morning with us.
"FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" starts right now.
