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State of the Union
First Hostages Set For Release From Gaza; Interview With Rep. Michael Waltz (R-FL); Interview With Former Chicago, Illinois, Mayor Rahm Emanuel; Interview With Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH). Aired 9-10a ET
Aired January 19, 2025 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:40]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Cease-fire, this morning, a pause in the fighting between Israel and Hamas. Any moment, Hamas will release Israeli hostages, while Gazans take stock of the damage at home. Can the fragile cease-fire last and bring about an end to the war?
Incoming Trump National Security Adviser Mike Waltz is next.
And swearing-in. Donald Trump is set to take office again, a peaceful transfer of power, with a long list of promises.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENT-ELECT: Day one, I will stop the migrant invasion. We're going to seal the border immediately. Drill, baby, drill. We will give them pardons.
BASH: What will he follow through on tomorrow? House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Jordan joins me.
Plus: Time's up? TikTok goes dark.
TRUMP: I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok.
BASH: Will Trump save the app, despite national security concerns? Ambassador Rahm Emanuel on that, plus the future of the Democratic Party, ahead.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington.
And we are covering breaking news this hour. A cease-fire between Israel and Hamas is now in effect. And the Israeli military is beginning a partial withdrawal in Gaza, as vehicles from the International Committee of the Red Cross are in place in Gaza, ready for Hamas to hand over three hostages, all Israeli civilians captured on October 7, Doron Steinbrecher, Romi Gonen, and Emily Damari.
These women have spent more than a year in captivity. And while Israel is mobilized to bring them home, aid trucks are waiting at a different border crossing to bring more aid into decimated Gaza. We will bring you that all live as it happens.
And we are also going to look ahead to Donald Trump's inauguration tomorrow. His team, of course, is closely monitoring the developments out of the Middle East.
Here with me now is Donald Trump's incoming national security adviser, Mike Waltz.
Thank you so much for being here.
So, you met with hostage families yesterday. I'm going to be speaking with two of the families later this morning, including the family of American Edan Alexander, who is still believed to be alive and expected to be released as part of the second phase of this deal.
What assurances did you give them and will you give now that the deal won't collapse before we get there?
REP. MIKE WALTZ (R-FL): Well, I gave them the assurance that getting their loved ones out of those horrific tunnels is top of mind for President Trump. It's top of mind for his administration.
And we have been in constant contact with -- excuse me -- our allies in Qatar, with the Egyptians, and, of course, with the Israeli government to make sure this deal happens in the first place.
And, Dana, I'm convinced, as were they, that, had President Trump not been elected, this deal was stuck, it was dead in the water. And once President Trump, and they were so thankful, put his tweet out that started talking about consequences for Hamas if they didn't let our people go, that that was the momentum they had been praying for to get this deal going.
A lot -- I told him, look, this is going to be bumpy. Hamas often reneges on its deals, shifts the goalposts. We may expect a group of people to come out because this is going to be phased over time, and then they don't, or it wasn't the number that we agreed.
So -- but I just wanted, while they were here in the capital, for them to see me, for me to look them in the eye, and it is painful and difficult, but for them to know that we were with them.
BASH: Because you mentioned the Trump effect, which I have heard you say several times since this agreement was announced, can you be specific? What pressure or promises did the president-elect give to both Netanyahu and representatives from Hamas through his emissaries, through Trump's emissaries, to make this happen?
WALTZ: Well, the assurance is to Hamas, in terms of all hell to pay, look what happened to Hezbollah. Nasrallah, their leader, is dead. Hezbollah is decimated. For Hamas itself, Sinwar is dead. Their political leader, Haniyeh, is dead.
[09:05:10]
BASH: But those are things that happened. WALTZ: They really have no -- they have -- but they have no option except to let our hostages go. They cannot be a terrorist organization any longer, and they will never govern Gaza, period.
And the assurances to our Israeli partners were, if Hamas backs out of this deal, if Hamas doesn't abide by this deal in any way, we will be with them. And I think what you're seeing is a level of trust and confidence in this incoming Trump administration that wasn't there before, frankly, from the Israelis.
And that's why Bibi Netanyahu felt comfortable pushing this through his government, as tough as it has been.
BASH: You mentioned Hamas. I want to ask you about that, because it has been about 15 months of relentless bombardment inside Gaza. And Secretary of State Antony Blinken says Hamas has recruited almost as many new militants as it's lost.
So, how is Hamas going to be tamed and removed if it has the numbers, according to the current secretary of state, that it had before, despite the fact that some of its key leaders have been killed?
WALTZ: Yes, I think there's some -- excuse me -- some debate in those numbers, number one.
Number two, I wouldn't necessarily describe it as relentless bombardment. There have been Israeli soldiers on the ground in brutal hand-to-hand fighting going from building to building and rooting and carving Hamas out.
BASH: Sure.
WALTZ: And I don't want to minimize that in any way. And this is an enemy that deliberately hides behind its own people and, even as a matter of strategy, sacrifices civilians so that it gets the P.R. win to turn world opinion against Israel.
It's the most horrific type of urban warfare. But, look, Israel is going to do what it has to do to make sure, and the United States under the Trump administration will support them, that Hamas never governs Gaza again. That doesn't mean there won't be pockets. That doesn't mean there won't be ongoing fighting.
BASH: Yes.
WALTZ: But it is going to be a difficult road ahead.
BASH: Just real quick on kind of the long game on that long road ahead...
WALTZ: Yes.
BASH: ... there is no way to replace Hamas without a governing body to replace Hamas. And then the support that Gaza needs in order for that to happen has to come from some of the Arab allies.
WALTZ: Right.
BASH: And I know that's something that both parties have been working on.
So do you have confidence that, for example, Saudi Arabia, who wants to come in and help, but won't do so without a promise from Israel for a Palestinian state, that you, that Donald Trump can get Israel to that point and the whole region to that point? I mean, this is -- these are huge things that have been vexing global leaders for generations.
WALTZ: And, Dana, just a month ago, to get where we are now seemed impossible. I mean, this hostage deal, this cease-fire was stuck now for, what, 15 months, 14 months, and just within a month we're there.
President Trump can bring all sides together uniquely. He has a wonderful negotiator in Steve Witkoff that will bring the right folks to the table, if it's an Arab-supported security force, if there's some mix of Palestinians. I don't want to get ahead of our planning process, but, obviously, the broader contours are in place.
BASH: Just real quick, because I want to move on...
WALTZ: Yes.
BASH: ... you feel confident that Prime Minister Netanyahu would agree to something like that, even if it jeopardizes his own position in power?
WALTZ: Well, I think Prime Minister Netanyahu is a master at being able to push the envelope, do what he needs to do, but also preserve his coalition.
A lot of people said his government would completely collapse with this deal.
BASH: Right.
WALTZ: And it hasn't.
BASH: OK, TikTok.
WALTZ: Yes.
BASH: As of this morning, TikTok is dark in the United States. President-elect Trump said "Save TikTok" in just a two-word social media post. I think it's pretty clear what he wants to do.
The law, of course, says that he does have the ability to put a pause on the ban for 90 days, but only if there's significant progress toward a deal to sell it. Is there a viable deal on the table?
WALTZ: Yes, so, what's interesting here is, this is about bridging from Sunday to Monday. This is about giving the tech companies, the app stores, the providers, the cloud storage, and others the confidence that we are going to work towards some type of deal and then not make this go dark.
[09:10:07]
And I think that's what you're going to see in the upcoming 24 hours. The president needs optionality, he wants it, to evaluate deals that are in accordance with the law, but also protect our national security. That's what we will see.
BASH: So, he's going to bring it back on -- will he bring it back online on Monday?
WALTZ: Well, we're working -- literally real time working with the various tech companies, get it back online and buy him some time to, one, save it, but protect Americans' data and protect Americans from any type of foreign interference.
BASH: So, I mean, how do you -- how do you do that? I mean, the whole reason why you, in particular, and originally then-President Trump in his first term wanted to get rid of TikTok as it is now, Chinese- owned, is because of the very real national security threat that you see.
So how do you keep them even for 90 days, as a China hawk?
WALTZ: Well, there's a number -- look, I don't want the FBI looking at my passports. I don't want the Chinese Communist Party looking at my passwords -- excuse me -- or what's going on in my data or certainly not influencing 170 million Americans.
But it is a fantastic app. It's something that 170 million Americans enjoy. And we're confident that we can save TikTok, but also protect Americans' data and protect them from influence. Whether that's an outright sale, whether that's some mechanism of firewalls to make sure that the data is protected here on U.S. soil, that's what the president will be evaluating.
And I will certainly be helping from that from a national security standpoint.
BASH: So it's possible that China will still own that? And, if so, isn't that totally capitulating to China?
WALTZ: No, no, no, no, it's not capitulating at all.
I -- again, we can do both. Both can be true at the same time. TikTok can continue to exist. And whether that's in American hands owned by an American company or whether the data and the algorithms are fully protected from Chinese interference, there's a number of, I think, formulas this can take.
But the point right now, Dana, is, let's get the president some time to make that decision.
BASH: Immigration. The president will tomorrow apparently issue a whole bunch of executive orders specifically on immigration. Can you explain what that is going to look like? Will there be raids
right away? Tell us how that's going to look and who is going to be affected.
WALTZ: Well, you're certainly going to see a much more aggressive action from Border Patrol to lock down our border, number one.
Number two, we are working rapidly back towards a remain-in-Mexico policy. Number three, you're going to see some of our key partners step up in terms of deportation and taking some of these people back. I don't want to get too far ahead of who they are, how that's going to occur.
And then, number four, Tom Homan actually absolutely is going to take much more aggressive ICE action. Our inner-city mayors are begging for it. The president campaigned on it. We are going to start with the worst of the worst of the criminals to get them out of our cities and out of our communities.
BASH: Is this large-scale raids we're talking about?
WALTZ: Well, I don't know how you would define large-scale.
But when we have criminals raping, assaulting and conducting the mayhem that they are, one of the things you're absolutely going to see is aggressive action to come out of our communities.
BASH: This coming week? This coming week? It will start immediately?
WALTZ: The president is ready to go day -- minute one on getting these people out of the United States.
BASH: OK.
Mike Waltz, thank you so much.
WALTZ: Thank you. Apologies for the voice.
BASH: Congratulations on your -- on your new role.
It happens.
WALTZ: All right.
BASH: And we are waiting for Israeli hostages to head home after 15 months in Hamas captivity. We're going to bring that to you as soon as it happens.
And the second Trump era begins tomorrow. House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan on the president-elect's day one priorities next.
Plus, Rahm Emanuel on how Democrats should be responding.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:18:55] BASH: Just seconds ago, we saw that helicopter landing at a border crossing between Gaza and Israel, the Kerem Shalom border crossing.
As we wait to see the three hostages that Hamas and Israel are going to -- have said will be released by the Hamas terror group shortly, also moments ago, a convoy of Red Cross vehicles entered Gaza ahead of the release of the first three hostages this morning.
I'm going to go straight to CNN's chief national security analyst, Jim Sciutto, who is in Tel Aviv.
Jim, what's happening right now?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, this is quite a moment, Dana, to see those Red Cross vehicles traversing the main thoroughfare inside Gaza to bring those first three Israeli hostages home, the three women, Doron Steinbrecher, 31 years old, Romi Gonen, 24 years old, and Emily Damari, who's a British-Israeli citizen, 28 years old.
And it struck me as I watched those images down, and I'm sure this will ring familiar with you as well, that those Red Cross vehicles are going down the same streets that those Hamas vehicles drove down in the minutes and hours after the October 7 attacks carrying those hostages into Gaza for what has now amounted to 470 days of captivity under torturous conditions, now Red Cross vehicles going into Gaza to take at least three of them out.
[09:20:31]
It's a small beginning, an extremely important one, no question, for those three families who've been waiting so long, but also for all the hostage families. And keep in mind there are close to 100 hostages still held there.
They have been waiting all this time with great frustration for a deal to come through. And I think it's safe to say that few Israelis expected the hostages to be held this long, this long, a year-and-a- half, 470 days since those horrible attacks on October 7.
This is the first phase of many over the course of the next six weeks. We're going to see some 33 hostages released from there, largely women and children and the elderly. There are pitfalls along the way, but we should acknowledge, Dana...
BASH: Right.
SCIUTTO: ... this is quite a hopeful moment at a time when there really has just been so few of them, and certainly for the people of Gaza as well, many tens of thousands of them killed in the fighting, the relentless bombing since the events, the attacks of October 7.
BASH: Yes, hopeful moments. We will take them where we can get them. Thank you so much.
SCIUTTO: Yes. BASH: On that note, I want to go to Jeremy Diamond.
Jeremy, we are looking at what I believe is the camera showing us live pictures of where you are, at the Israeli-Gaza border. What are you seeing?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Dana.
We are in Re'im, Israel, near a military base here right by the Gaza border. And we have just seen two military transport helicopters landing right here at Re'im that I have been told will indeed be used to transport the hostages once they emerge from Gaza to that hospital in Central Israel, the Sheba Medical Center, just outside of Tel Aviv.
And one thing that's important to note about the location where we are, Re'im is where that Nova Music Festival was held, where Romi Gonen, who we expect to emerge from captivity today after more than 15 months, that is where she was taken hostage.
She was also shot and wounded that day as she was -- as that attack unfolded and was then taken to Gaza and has been held in captivity since then, so certainly some symbolism there in the fact that she will taste her first moments of freedom right near the site where she was taken hostage over 15 months ago.
We also know, of course, that Emily Damari and Doron Steinbrecher, both from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, also not very far from where we are now, they are also expected to emerge.
We're just seeing one of the helicopters lifting off again now, Dana. I'm not sure if it's just repositioning, perhaps, does not appear to be fully, fully lifting off yet.
But this situation is very, very dynamic. And that's one of the things that we have to emphasize here, is that these plans are changing by the minute. The Red Cross is inside of Gaza picking up those hostages. They expect that they will then most likely arrive at this point after crossing in Central Gaza into Israel.
But, again, those details may change minute by minute. Last year, we saw that Kerem Shalom, near the Egypt-Gaza-Israel border, that is where they emerged last time on most of those seven days, so, again, a very fluid situation. But we have now seen these helicopters arriving here, which we expect to be used to transport those hostages to hospitals, Dana.
BASH: Thank you so much for that reporting.
What an incredible detail, that she is going to be returned, two of them will be returned exactly to the place where they were taken.
Jeremy, thank you so much.
We, of course, are going to continue to monitor these dynamic developments in the Middle East.
We want to turn now back here in the United States.
Donald Trump will be inaugurated tomorrow. And so there will be a sweep of executive orders that the president-elect plans to sign designed to make the dramatic change that he promised when he takes office.
Here with me now to talk about that is the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan.
Thank you so much for being here. We're going to make a...
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): That was great news. I mean, I think we're -- I think a lot of Americans are familiar with Romi's story and that, as you pointed out, that she's going to be coming back right to where the festival, the music festival was.
And so that's great news today.
[09:25:02]
BASH: Yes, it sure is.
I'm going to make a bit of a hard turn...
JORDAN: Sure. Sure.
BASH: ... to what we expect tomorrow, because we have a lot going on, including the inauguration of a president.
JORDAN: Yes.
BASH: And, on that note, one of the many things that the president- elect promised that he would do was and is to pardon many of the January 6 rioters.
We heard vice president-elect J.D. Vance say last week that, if anyone committed violence on that day, they should not be pardoned. He added there's a little bit of a gray area there. But, according to the DOJ, 608 people have been charged with assaulting, resisting or obstructing officers; 174 of those defendants have been charged with using a deadly or dangerous weapon against police officers.
So, do you agree with vice president-elect Vance that those people should not be pardoned?
JORDAN: I think, all along, whether it's President Trump, Vice President Vance, people who didn't engage in violence should be pardoned. I think that's where the American people are. I think that's where the president is.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: But what about those who did engage in violence?
JORDAN: I think that's -- then you go case by case. And if they have done some violent activity against some police officer, maybe not. Maybe they shouldn't be.
And I think J.D. pointed that out. But I think, the way pardons work, it's a power solely with the president, case by case, person by person, and the president has complete authority to pardon who he wants to pardon. But I think he's going to focus on those, all those -- the people who didn't commit any violence I think certainly warrant a pardon.
But I think on the 174 number you pointed out, I think he goes case by case and looks at those.
BASH: But you will be OK if even one of those 174 is pardoned?
JORDAN: That's a -- the way our Constitution works, it's a power of the president.
BASH: No, I know, but what's your opinion?
JORDAN: The president was clear about this. That's up to the president. If the president thinks that that's warranted, he's the one who will look at the facts, along with his counsel, along with the justice. They will look at all the facts, but then he will make the decision.
And that's how it works in America. It's a power that is exclusively with the president of the United States.
BASH: TikTok is now dark in the United States. The president-elect says he will save TikTok. You just heard his national security adviser tell me...
JORDAN: Yes.
BASH: ... moments ago that it might mean something short of an actual sale, some kind of firewall to protect Americans' data.
You voted for this ban on TikTok.
JORDAN: I did. Tough vote, but I ended up in the end voting for it.
BASH: If it's still owned by the Chinese, are you OK with that?
JORDAN: Well, I think it seems to me, if there's some other remedy than someone else purchasing TikTok who's not affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party, that you would have to have some kind of change in the law.
And maybe that's where we need to go, if -- as long as there are the safeguards in place. And I think that's what Mr. Waltz was pointing out earlier. But, right now, I mean, you go on the app and says, you can't get the app, but we're fortunate that President Trump is committed to working with us to find a solution.
So I think everyone thinks this is going to get solved because you have the guy coming in tomorrow into the White House who knows how to get deals done, knows how to get things solved. So I'm confident in that.
But it seems to me, if you're going to do something short of someone else purchasing TikTok and ByteDance no longer owning it, you're going to have to have a change in the law. And if that's what's warranted, then I think the Congress will look at that with the leadership from President Trump.
BASH: Senators Tom Cotton and Pete Ricketts released a statement a...
JORDAN: Yes.
BASH: ... a short while ago saying: "Now that the law has taken effect, there's no legal basis for any kind of extension by its effective date. For TikTok to come back online in the future, ByteDance must agree to the sale."
So, sounds like they're kind of agreeing with what you said, but also...
JORDAN: Yes, you have to change the law to do anything different than...
BASH: But also, just sort of philosophically, is that the approach that you would like the Trump administration even to consider, or do you think an actual sale is the safest way to go when it comes to data protection?
JORDAN: Well, the law says a sale, but...
BASH: But what do you think should happen?
JORDAN: Well, we -- what we want is, we don't want China spying on Americans. We don't want China influencing young people and 170 million people who are involved in this app. So that's what we want.
How that gets resolved, I guess we're open to different scenarios. But right now the law is the law. And, of course, you have got these companies abiding by the law. They don't want to have any of the liability concerns they would have if they had allowed this app to continue.
So...
BASH: And are you OK with the pause? Like, if he allows -- if he comes into office tomorrow and brings it back online, as the law does allow him to do, you can have a 90-day pause...
JORDAN: Yes, he's the commander in chief. And I think...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: But what does that say? I mean, you're a China hawk. What does that say about how serious America is about pushing back on China?
JORDAN: Oh, I think -- oh, I think -- I think President Trump, I mean, here's the guy who's talked about tariffs on China. Here's a guy who stood up to China. Here's a guy who, I think, projects strength from the Oval Office.
I don't think Americans are too worried about that.
BASH: Let's talk about immigration.
JORDAN: Sure.
BASH: You also heard the Trump national security adviser, Mike Waltz, say that Donald Trump will take action on immigration in minute one as president.
[09:30:01]
JORDAN: Yes.
BASH: His border czar, Tom Homan, president, said the administration is now reconsidering whether to launch immigration raids in Chicago next week. There was a leak. It was reported that that was going to happen.
What do you expect? I know you have been talking to the people who are going to make that happen.
(CROSSTALK)
JORDAN: Yes, I think a number of executive orders. I think there will be one on the wall. I think there will be executive order telling the State Department, Department of Homeland Security, get working on the remain-in-Mexico policy.
I think there will be an executive order saying we're not going to release people into the country, like the Biden administration did. People coming seeking asylum, they will be detained. I think there's likely to be something on parole. The Biden administration did this blanket parole authority for certain groups of migrants coming in.
That's not supposed to be how it works. It's supposed to be case-by- case basis. So I think you're going to see all those come from the president tomorrow, as well as in the other -- in other areas.
BASH: Yes.
JORDAN: I think he will look at energy and some other things.
BASH: But let's just stay on immigration. So, you talked about...
JORDAN: But relative to immigration and the border, I think it'll be all that.
BASH: OK, so you talked about the border and the policies.
JORDAN: Yes.
BASH: What about rooting out and finding and conducting raids to get the undocumented immigrants here?
JORDAN: Well, I mean, look, we talked about this -- yes, we talked about this before, Dana.
It's -- ICE agents are going to say, we're going to start with people who've done bad things. They're here -- as migrants, they have done bad things. We're going to start with those. Then we're going to look at the 1.3 million.
BASH: But how quickly do you anticipate that happening, and at what scale?
JORDAN: Oh, I hope -- I hope right away, because that's what the American people voted on. This issue was front and center on November 5. The American people spoke loudly and clearly.
They want the border secure. They want people who broke the law, particularly ones who came here and did bad things, they want those people repatriated back to their native country. And then you go to the 1.3 million who've been in front of a judge, in front of a court, and the court has said, you do not qualify under our asylum laws.
That's where Tom Homan is going to start. And I think that's exactly what the election was about, and appropriate and consistent with the rule of law.
BASH: You and I spoke in November. I asked you if you would call Jack Smith to testify. You said that you hadn't decided, but it was on the table.
Now his report has been released.
JORDAN: Yes. Yes.
BASH: He has stepped down. Will you call him to testify?
JORDAN: We're still looking at all that. One of the things we are going to check into is one of his lawyers. I mean, this is one of the many issues I think we need some answers to.
But Jay Bratt, one of the guys who worked for him, went to a lawyer who was representing one of the defendants in the case, representing Walt Nauta, said to that lawyer, we didn't know you were a Trump guy. We thought you were interested in this judge position.
You can't do those kind of things. So we're going to investigate that. We're going to look at a number of things Jack Smith didn't include in his report, like something that's happened since I was here in November, the 26 confidential human sources who were there on January 6, 2021, 17 within restricted space, four inside the Capitol.
BASH: So, you're not done.
JORDAN: Two were tasked to be there by the FBI.
BASH: You're not done with this.
JORDAN: Yes, because I think there are lots of answers that -- lots of questions that people, the American people, want answers to. BASH: Chairman Jim Jordan, thank you so much for being here.
JORDAN: You bet. Good to be with you.
BASH: Appreciate it.
And, as we mentioned, Red Cross vehicles are now inside Gaza, as we await the release of the first Israeli hostages. We, of course, are going to stay on that.
And coming up, I will ask Democratic enforcer Rahm Emanuel about the path forward for his party.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:37:40]
BASH: You're looking at hostage square in Tel Aviv, where Israelis are waiting for the release of three hostages from Gaza. We will bring you any updates as soon as we get them.
And President Joe Biden is set to make remarks on the cease-fire next hour. But, as he steps down tomorrow, Democrats are now looking to find their way out of electoral exile.
Here with me now is a man with a very long history in Democratic politics, the former mayor of Chicago and White House chief of staff, among other things, also ambassador to Japan, just back from that, Rahm Emanuel.
Thank you so much for being here.
RAHM EMANUEL (D), FORMER MAYOR OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS: Good morning.
BASH: You are, of course, wrapping up your term as ambassador.
You have shared some foreign policy advice with Donald Trump and an op-ed for "The Washington Post" about how he can win the Nobel Peace Prize, that he's hunting for one. And you say that the cease-fire, of course, that is going in effect today is a good start, but it is just the beginning.
You have been in government a long time. Does he have a real opportunity to find, in your words, a grand bargain?
EMANUEL: Only if he's willing and his team's willing to exercise the power.
I do think the Middle East is set up for one of the most significant realignments in our lifetime. You have Iran having lost both Syria, Hezbollah significantly militarily degraded. The fact is their government is also security-wise very vulnerable. Their economy is very vulnerable. People are fleeing Iran. They lack legitimacy.
They have used weapons on their own people multiple times over the last years to stay in power. So you have Iran way back up and on their backheel. You have also Israel and Saudi Arabia having serious discussions. There's going to be a lot of choices that have to be made, but you have the Middle East poised.
Now, it's going to require only the type of leadership that the United States can provide, not China, not Russia, nobody else can provide that, to actually realign the Middle East in a way that I think advances America's interests and the interests of American allies.
But I say that comment about the Nobel because autocrats like Putin, autocrats like President Xi use President Trump's vanity and his desire for this to their own advantage. Well, those of us who believe in certain principles should be as open about that and also be as conscious. You're not going to get the Nobel Peace Prize on some Blue Light Special at Kmart.
[09:40:02]
It comes with a price, and you have got to be able to pay that price.
BASH: Which is?
EMANUEL: Well, it's significant, like in -- take the Saudi-Israeli deal on peace.
There's got to be a self-determination for the Palestinian people. Take Iran. On that effort, you have to give up and shelve your desire for the nuclear weapons. You have got to give up your desire to destabilize countries like Lebanon and Syria. And you have to stop doing that, and the United States will release certain economic pressures on you.
Those have got to be the set of choices and tradeoffs. And in the Ukraine deal, you have got to have a sovereign, independent Ukraine. You have to have the attempts of all the gray zone attacks on Europe end. And you have to also give up your desire, that is, Putin, for taking over, back over Latvia, Estonia, parts of Eastern Europe, who have chosen a future with freedom in the West.
And that's got to be the price. And then the United States has to stand with that. Now, you make those choices. You get a deal. There never is 100 percent the way you're going to want to write it. There's a chance for a significant breakthrough in not only ending the conflicts, but establishing a new set of ground rules going forward that advance America's own foreign policy interests and the interests of the world in that case.
BASH: I want to turn...
EMANUEL: So those are the prices.
BASH: I want to turn to TikTok, which is offline, as we have been discussing this morning. The president-elect says he's going to save it. His national security adviser told me they're looking at a sale or even allowing China to still own it, but finding some firewall to protect Americans' data. You spent three years in Asia as the U.S. ambassador to Japan. You
witnessed Chinese aggression and influence firsthand. What's your take on that?
EMANUEL: Well, I mean, I -- listen, as a former ballet dancer, I'm amazed at the flexibility of these individuals who just three years ago, four years ago, like President Trump, he announced TikTok was a danger to America.
He gets a contribution from one of -- American investors in TikTok and the parent company, all of a sudden, he sees the merit of TikTok here in the United States.
Look, China is after Americans, gathering data, collecting data. There's a reason the United States is getting rid of Chinese- manufactured cranes out of ports, because it collects data.
Why would you let American children be influenced by China and their data collected? If it was good back four years ago, which is a bipartisan Congress a few years after that decided consciously to ban China from using TikTok and collecting that data, it's good now.
Now, I get that President Trump got a donation. But keep your hands off our children. It's that simple.
BASH: Well, you know...
EMANUEL: It's either we protect our children or we allow China to have access to that information.
BASH: It...
EMANUEL: And a contribution...
BASH: Yes.
EMANUEL: ... from a donor should not change your principles.
BASH: So how do you explain...
EMANUEL: I know -- I know -- listen, in Washington -- I have been there long enough -- people are firm in their opinions. It's their principles they're flexible on. That's unacceptable.
BASH: OK, so how do you explain the fact that Chuck Schumer, the Senate Democratic leader, asked President Biden to put a pause on this sale?
So are you saying it goes both ways?
EMANUEL: I think a lot of people realize how popular it is, but that doesn't mean you -- the only way to do this is to safeguard our children and the data of Americans.
China's done that for their own citizens. What are we, a bunch of chumps? We should protect the data on Americans from Chinese Communist Party manipulation, and most specifically our children from Chinese propaganda. It's either a principle you're going to hold, or you're going to be incredibly one up for sale.
And my view is, China, keep your hands off our children and their future.
BASH: You have...
EMANUEL: It's that simple, no matter what donation you take.
BASH: You have said that Democrats need to listen better when it comes to issues that helped get Donald Trump elected. Immigration is one of them.
There are reports that his incoming administration will begin large- scale deportations immediately, maybe even in your hometown of Chicago. We will see if that happens. How do you square your plea to your fellow Democrats to listen more on immigration with an anticipated large-scale deportation?
EMANUEL: Yes.
BASH: If -- what should the response be?
EMANUEL: Look, there's a whole set of issues, look, and the past tells you how to go forward.
Starting from 1968, Richard Nixon's law and order, to Ronald Reagan's welfare queens, to George Bush's Willie Horton ads, Democrats were bedeviled by a set of issues, whether it's on crime, welfare, immigration, drug policy.
And we cannot communicate a culture of permissiveness. Bill Clinton ran on putting 100,000 community police officers on the street, getting assault weapons, kids, and drugs off the street. It proved not only a good policy, but also effective politics.
Now, you can run on 100,000 community police officers or defund the police. You can run on, we're a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants, and we're going to respect both, or -- and people used to attack President Obama as a -- as somebody who was deporter in chief.
BASH: Yes.
EMANUEL: But then there was a bunch of Democrats that talked about health care at the border, when we weren't even providing health care for our own citizens.
[09:45:01]
BASH: So, what do you do now? What do you do right now? And this is a real-life situation.
EMANUEL: We're very clear.
Yes, but in the situations, you have a series of elections across the country telling you, from San Francisco mayor's race to the -- even the DA -- U.S. -- DA race here in Chicago, DA races in Oregon and California, San Francisco, L.A.
You have to have sensible policies, where no one constituency determine our policies. We have to listen to the American people, reflect not only their values.
You know, when a lot of Americans -- or the Democrats talk about kitchen table issues, you know, it's not just paying bills, although that's a priority, and a big priority. It's also what's happening in your neighborhood.
BASH: Right.
EMANUEL: What's going on at your kids' schools? What kind of crime is happening in your community?
We have to be comfortable with a set of issues that dominate people's lives.
BASH: And...
EMANUEL: And I will say the one thing, having just come from Japan, where people leave backpacks on park benches and go for a 10-mile run.
The fact is, you don't realize here in America how many compromises we make about our safety. Kids 5 years old in Japan walk to school alone. I would love to see the day in America where you're not consciously...
BASH: Yes, that sounds...
EMANUEL: ... consciously and subconsciously making compromises on safety.
BASH: That sounds amazing.
EMANUEL: It -- 5 years old, walk to school by yourselves and walk home.
BASH: Mr. Ambassador...
EMANUEL: Yes.
BASH: I'm sorry. I'm going to have to leave it there...
EMANUEL: That's OK.
BASH: ... because we have to get to the breaking news after a short break.
EMANUEL: That's more important, yes.
BASH: Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.
EMANUEL: Thank you.
BASH: And, again, we do have major breaking news this Sunday morning.
Any minute, hostages will be headed home. We're going to go back to the Middle East in minutes.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:51:17]
BASH: You're looking at live images from Hostage Square in Tel Aviv, where Israelis are eagerly awaiting the release of the first three hostages from Gaza.
CNN's Bianna Golodryga is there now as well.
Bianna, what's the mood like?
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Dana, you and I have been talking this week. The mood had been surprisingly somber ever since the announcement of that cease-fire/hostage deal.
I can say, just being here now, no, it is not joyful, but there is a bit more optimism here. People are literally holding their breaths, waiting for the moment that we have word that these three female hostages are transferred over to the IDF from the Red Cross.
The families of Romi, Emily and Doron are already en route as well. And that is when -- once they are in IDF custody is when they will be transferred to a hospital. After our time here, Dana, in Hostage Square. We will eventually make our way to the hospital where they will be treated. Obviously, there will be a lot of secrecy and privacy around those first few hours and even days that they will be here in Israel in the hospital.
But there are family members here. There are those that feel that they know all of these hostages, all 97 of them, for 15 months. Just the sensation and the idea that some of them will start to come home here, it really is giving the nation a sign of hope. And a pause of the fighting also helps that as well, Dana.
BASH: Bianna, thank you so much. We, of course, will be checking back with you throughout the morning.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:56:29]
BASH: Stay with CNN for all the breaking news out of the Middle East.
And I'm going to see you right back here live at noon Eastern and as Washington prepares for Donald Trump's inauguration tomorrow. We will discuss that. Tune in to CNN's special coverage of the inauguration. That starts tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. Fareed Zakaria picks it up next.
