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State of the Union

Interview With Rep. Laura Gillen (D-NY); Interview With Rep. Riley Moore (R-WV); Interview With Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN); Interview With White House Border Czar Tom Homan. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired February 16, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:32]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Bite of the apple, a crisis at the Justice Department, as seven U.S. attorneys resign over a push to dismiss charges against New York's mayor.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It looked to me to be very political.

BASH: Now, as President Trump's border chief piles pressure on Eric Adams, what more do they want him to do? White House border czar Tom Homan is next.

And blowback. The U.S. is set to lead talks with Russia on Ukraine.

TRUMP: I think we're going to be able to make a deal.

BASH: But as Trump echoes Putin...

TRUMP: I think they have to make peace.

BASH: ... is the president already choosing sides? Senator Amy Klobuchar joins me ahead.

Plus: full tilt. Trump suggests he's above the law. He's slashing departments and funding and making broad policy shifts. But what about the price of eggs? Our panel of experts is here to discuss.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is wondering, if you break it, do you own it?

Trumpism 2.0 is coming into focus. The president and his team are moving rapidly and confidently, with little apparent concern for the fallout of all of the disruption that he promised. Just this week, ahead of talks with Russia about the war in Ukraine, Trump's national security team put European leaders on edge about a shift in American alliances.

The administration slashed government jobs and funding, with some shocking missteps that we're going to get into later. The president also posted this yesterday. He said: "He who saves his country does not violate any law."

And with Trump officials pushing for more results on his deportation goals, upheaval at the Department of Justice. Seven U.S. attorneys resigned, rather than follow a demand to drop corruption charges against New York Mayor Eric Adams.

My next guest met with the Democratic mayor just days after that order came down and got some notable concessions on Trump's push to round up migrants in New York.

Joining me now is President Trump's border czar, Tom Homan.

Thank you so much for being here, sir.

I just want to ask directly. You met on Thursday with the New York mayor, and he announced then that he would give ICE agents access to the prison on Rikers Island. You called that a game changer. A few days before Adams made that announcement, the Justice Department instructed prosecutors to drop federal corruption charges against him.

It sounds like the DOJ dropped the case against Adams and, in exchange, he let you into Rikers. Is that what happened?

THOMAS HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: No, I think that's ridiculous.

Me and Mayor Adams met a couple months ago. I think it was probably eight, nine weeks ago we met. And we had the same discussion. And we talked about getting a presence in Rikers Island. We talked about how we can collaborate on public safety threats and finding the missing children that were -- that can be found after they release the sponsors.

We had that a couple months ago, long before this other discussion. So I don't think it had anything to do with it. Matter of fact, the meeting went very well. It was the same meeting we had a few weeks ago. The reason we had the follow-up meeting because there was no action being done.

So we followed up on how we can get some of this stuff in place, and that's what the meeting Thursday was about.

BASH: Right. I mean, you absolutely have been honest about the fact that you met with Adams before, in December, I think it was.

You came away from that meeting really unsatisfied. What changed between then and now, other than the Department of Justice dropping the case against Adams?

HOMAN: No, I didn't come out of that meeting unsatisfied. I was a little -- after several weeks, I was taken back to that we hadn't gotten the action that yet about getting to Rikers Island.

So we rescheduled the meeting to talk about, OK, well, we talked about how -- what things we need to put in place how we can make this happen. So let's get going. Let's take some steps forward. And that's what the meeting Thursday was about. And we came out Thursday with a plan in how we can get in Rikers Island in the Criminal Intelligence Division, so we can understand who's in there, who's foreign-born in Rikers Island that's a significant public safety threat.

We also talked about how we can collaborate on the missing children, many of them are going to be in New York City. And that's what we talked about. I really don't think it had anything to do with whatever's going on in Justice Department. We never talked about that. It's kind of out of my lane.

I have been talking to the mayor for months about getting in Rikers Island. And that's what we talked about.

[09:05:00]

BASH: Yes. Yes. And I totally understand you do not work in the Department of Justice, but you do work in the broader Trump administration.

And just as somebody who is in law enforcement, you call yourself a cop, just looking at the series of events, sir, the fact that you didn't get what you wanted, you didn't -- you came away not sure why he wasn't doing what you wanted him to do, particularly with opening Rikers, the Department of Justice gets rid of the charges against him, and then, poof, he agrees.

HOMAN: Look, the first meeting -- if you look at my interview after the first meeting, I said to the whole world, I have called that mayor out for a couple of years because I didn't think he was doing the right thing as far as public safety threats.

And that first meeting back in December, I said to everybody that interviewed me, for the first time, I saw the cop in him. I saw the cop come on him. He talked about how he wants public safety threats removed from New York City. He wants illegal alien crime to decrease in New York City, and there's a way we should collaborate on that.

We agreed that he doesn't want to be an immigration officer. I don't want him to be an immigration officer. We agreed on that. Well, I just want him to help me with the public safety threats and leave immigration enforcement to us.

So, it was a great meeting. Just the actions following up that meeting were slow to happen. That's why I requested a second meeting to find out, what more we need to do to get some of this stuff in place?

So I just think people are making a lot about nothing, I mean, again, I went up there as the ICE director, now the border czar, and we collaborated on how to move illegal alien crime, decrease it down in New York City, and find the worst of the worst. And that's what we talked about. It was cop to cop, not border czar to mayor, cop to cop.

And we talked about the public safety threats and how they should be removed from our communities. And that was the end of the conversation.

BASH: I want to read you what the deputy attorney general, Emil Bove, said as he ordered the case to be dismissed without prejudice.

He said, "The matter shall be reviewed following the November 2025 mayoral election, meaning DOJ could bring the charges back. In an interview with FOX, you and the mayor sat by side. I want to play for our viewers what you said there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOMAN: Now I got him on the couch in front of millions of people, he can't back away from this now, right?

So I think you want to see things move in the right direction. If he doesn't come through, I will be back in New York City.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

HOMAN: And we won't be sitting on a couch. I will be in his office up his butt, saying, where the hell is the agreement we came to?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: I mean, that's a pretty direct message, sir, that Adams needs to play ball when it comes to immigration.

HOMAN: Well, in fairness to playing to that tape, there's more to that tape.

This is two cops talking. We're talking cop. I mean, once you're a cop, you never lose that language. We had a great time in the meeting before busting into each other. That was a joke. And if you play the tape further, he laughs and immediately responds, well, I'm going to hold you accountable, I will hold ICE accountable to get what they did done.

I'm telling you, I need you through on your promise. He responds to me that I need to come through on mine. So this is a conversation between two cops having a good time.

BASH: What is your promise?

HOMAN: And people are making a lot out of nothing.

BASH: What is your promise, sir?

HOMAN: My promise is, I'm not going to ask his officers to be immigration officers. I'm not going to push them to enforce immigration law.

I told them I want to arrest the bad guy. I want to arrest the public safety threats. I want to get in Rikers Island so we can get the public safety threat before they're released to the street. I want his help, especially the NYPD Intelligence Unit, who's the finest intelligence apparatus in the world, to help me find missing children.

They have a problem. Many are in forced labor. Many are in forced sex trafficking, not all of them, but many of them. And that's a promise I made to him. You do law enforcement stuff. Help me get the public safety threats and the children. I'm never going to ask you to arrest an illegal alien. And that is my promise, not to make them immigration officers or make them cops working with cops.

BASH: So, if he doesn't do the things that you want him to do, would you be OK with DOJ reopening its investigation into him? Should they do that?

HOMAN: That's out of my lane. I'm a border czar. I care about the border. So let DOJ do what they do.

I care about removing public safety threats from the country. That's President Trump promise to the American people.

BASH: Adams says that you aren't looking into New York schools or churches as you hunt for undocumented immigrants. Did you make that commitment to him?

HOMAN: What me and Mr. Adams talked about is telling the truth that the leftist has tried to scare the American people.

We ended the sensitive location policy for one reason, because we're the only federal law enforcement agency that had those type of requirements. What I made clear to Governor -- to Mayor Adams is that we're not raiding schools, we're not raiding churches, we're not raiding college campuses, but if we have a significant public safety threat, significant public safety threat or national security, let's say, for instance, an MS-13 member who's a senior in the high school who's wanted for drug distribution or strong-arm robberies, we will go to that school and arrest that MS-13 member with the help of the local authorities.

It's not about raiding the schools. It's about arresting one bad guy where we know he is and not let him escape back into the community. That's what discussion we had.

[09:10:05]

BASH: I just want to take this conversation more broad and talk about how it's going so far with the president's promise, multiple promises on immigration and deportation. You have said roughly 14,000 migrants have been arrested in the first month of this administration.

And that's well below the 1,500 daily arrests that the president says he wants to see. You're getting support from across the federal government, from the FBI, from DEA, from U.S. Marshals, even the military. What's the struggle? Why are you struggling to get those arrests where President Trump wants them?

HOMAN: Well, we have got to remember the arrests, the interior arrests, arrests conducted by ICE in the interior of the United States is 2.5 times, 2.5 times higher than they were a year ago during the Biden administration.

So ICE is doing a great job. I'm not happy with the numbers because we have got a lot of criminals to find. So what we're talking about right now are increasing the number of teams, increasing the targeting. The division of ICE that creates the target lists of finding who these people are, what their criminal history is, and where we're most likely to find them, we have got to increase the targeting production.

So we're doing that now. We're increasing the targeting. We're increasing the teams out there in the field. And, finally, I will be honest with you. Sanctuary cities are causing us a lot of work. And rather than arresting a bad guy in Rikers Island, we have to go into the neighborhood and find them, find people that don't want to be found.

It is hard because, rather than one man arresting one bad guy in the jail, we have got to send whole teams to the field to find someone that doesn't want to be found. And so it's hard work, but we're not giving up. We're coming.

Again, the numbers are a lot higher than they were during the Biden administration, but we have got to do more. And I have been real clear on that. That's why we're making the operational changes now that I requested.

BASH: You went after Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez for hosting a Webinar for immigrants called Know Your Rights With ICE. I want to play what you said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOMAN: Is that impeding our law enforcement efforts? If so, what are we going to do about it? Is she crossing the line? So I'm working with the Department of Justice and finding out, where is that line that they crossed? So maybe AOC is going to be in trouble now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Are you suggesting that she should be prosecuted?

HOMAN: I'm suggesting that I would ask the Department of Justice, where's that line on impediment, right? That's a broad statute.

So I know impeding or someone stopping in front of me and putting their hands on my chest that you're not congressman in here to arrest that guy, that's clearly impeding. But at what line -- where's the line on impeding? So I'm asking the Department of Justice, who are the prosecutors and decide who they prosecute and what the standards of that prosecution is.

I simply says, at what point is that impeding? Because you can -- you can call it know your rights all you want. We all know the bottom line is, the bottom line is how they evade law enforcement. Don't open your door. Don't answer questions.

Here's what we're talking about. We're talking about people here in the country illegally with a criminal conviction who had due process, at great taxpayer expense, and were ordered deported by a federal judge, but became a fugitive. And we're talking about don't open your door to ICE, you don't have to

answer questions. I think it's more about how they evade law enforcement not to get arrested, even though there's a federal warrant for your arrest, how they evade that, rather than know your rights.

Now, we can argue about that all day long. They have the right to know their rights. The Constitution said they have the right to certain rights. But, also, you're -- you're -- you're -- I hope to God we're not educating people are going to be the next murder of a college student. I have said it before.

If we would have had access to the man who murdered Laken Riley in New York, he would never made it to Georgia to kill a woman.

BASH: Let me just -- to be fair, she said that she...

HOMAN: I'm concerned about public safety threats being -- escaping.

BASH: She said that she is just offering civil education and that you might be -- quote -- "vaguely familiar" with the U.S. immigration law, but that she's just doing what she needs to do to remind people the law of the land passed by congressional statute.

HOMAN: Vaguely aware of immigration law. I have done this since 1984. I forgot more about the immigration law that AOC will ever know.

Matter of fact, at a hearing couple years ago, I had explained to her the answer in the country legally was actually a crime. So I'm not going to play that game with her. I simply made a statement. When you sit down with people who are wanted by us, criminal aliens that been ordered to be deported from the United States government and ignore that order, if you and I ignore that order, we'd be sitting in prison.

But they ignore their order from a federal judge, they're hiding in a home, and she's telling them not to open the door. Now, I'm not saying that's illegal. What I'm saying is, I asked the attorney general, at what point is it impeding and what point is it not impeding?

So I'm simply, as a border czar, asking the office of the attorney general, what is the -- where is to draw the line, so we make sure we give ICE agents the proper standard when they go to -- when they go to these homes, they don't open the door. At what point can you open the door? At what point can't you open the door?

So we just want to be sure that ICE officers are doing the right thing. So this is about -- this is about talking to the attorney general, because every attorney general interprets things different. What is your interpretation of impeding? Where's that line at?

[09:15:00]

I think it's a responsible thing to do as the border czar of the United States to make sure the men and women ICE understand what they can and can't do.

BASH: Yes. And, of course, right now being undocumented is a civil offense, and not a criminal one, unless you commit those crimes.

Thank you so much, Tom Homan, for being here. Appreciate your time.

HOMAN: You got it.

BASH: A mutiny inside the Justice Department over what we were just talking about, an order from Washington.

Former prosecutor, now Senator Amy Klobuchar is here to weigh in next.

And Germany's chancellor fires back at the vice president for meddling in its election. The fallout from team Trump taking the U.S. in a very different direction the world stage this week.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:10]

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

There is right now one branch of government standing in the way of Donald Trump's agenda, the courts, which Democrats admit is their best hope of countering the president.

But, yesterday, Trump posted the following. He said -- quote -- "He who saves his country does not violate any law."

Here with me now is the Democratic Senator from Minnesota Amy Klobuchar.

Thank you so much for being here.

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Thanks, Dana.

BASH: You and other Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee want the inspector general at the Justice Department to investigate why DOJ dropped charges against Eric Adams.

We see a lot of what happened in public with the memos going back and forth. What more do you want to learn? And, to be honest, what can you do about it?

KLOBUCHAR: Well, I'd first say this is just another day in the Trump administration. Costs are up, chaos is up, and yes, corruption is up.

They have literally taken the mayor of New York City, who was facing and is facing serious charges of bribery, which were going to be expanded, and they have turned him into their own political pawn. And they have done this by trying to force career prosecutors in the Justice Department to drop the charges against him.

These were not like members of the resistance, Dana. They were people -- they are people like Danielle Sassoon, someone who's a member of the Federalist Society, was a clerk for Justice Scalia, a conservative superstar, an excellent lawyer, and she said, no, I will not do that. I would rather resign the position as head of the Southern District of New York, New York attorney's office.

Or you have people like the head of the case, who is actually a decorated Iraqi war veteran who'd clerked for Justice Roberts. And I read what he says, Hagan Scotten, because what he says is: "I expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to file your motion, but it was never going to be me."

And my hope is that my Republicans in -- colleagues in Congress start showing that kind of courage, start showing that kind of fortitude, and that follow the advice of the Constitution, that they are supposed to advise and consent on these nominees like Kash Patel, instead of simply accepting and acquiescing every step of the way.

BASH: And they keep...

KLOBUCHAR: So this is a major assault on the justice system.

BASH: Your colleagues across the aisle who you work with probably more than most, if any other Democrat in the Senate, they have done almost none of what you just said.

What makes you think they're going to stand up now and say, oh, I don't like this, or try to do something about it?

KLOBUCHAR: I don't think that right now, but I'm going to keep making the case to them as Democrats have stood up time and time again to some of these dangerous nominees like Kash Patel, like the people that you see coming into the Justice Department.

And my argument to them is, number one, you know the Constitution. You know they can't just freeze these funds. And, by the way, a whole bunch of Republican-appointed judges, as well as Democrat-appointed judges, have stood up and says, this is illegal. It's unconstitutional.

Second, you know that our policy of our government should not be giving $2 trillion in tax cuts to the wealthiest and paying for it by cuts to cancer research at NIH, something that has bipartisan support for years and years, or stopping Head Start, or freezing people who...

BASH: But, Senator, they are. They are doing that.

KLOBUCHAR: ... are trying to protect our nuclear stockpile. I know they are.

But what I'm saying is, at some point, the pressure is on them. And, finally, they know why some people voted for Donald Trump, and that was to bring costs down. And, as I said, costs are not going down. Egg prices are skyrocketing.

And I would like to see them put some pressure on the Trump administration, instead of just Democrats doing it, and do something with us to bring down the cost of health care, cost of housing, cost of childcare. They are not doing that right now. They are acquiescing. If they could just stand up to one of these nominees, one of them, and

I would suggest Kash Patel, who has said the FBI should turn into a museum and he'd close it down, who said that the FBI is corrupt numerous times, who has said that he can reverse the effects of the vaccine with a supplement and tried to make money off of that, maybe that's the guy they should stand up against.

BASH: Senator, you have also said that the courts -- assuming that what you just described is not going to happen, Republicans won't stand up, the courts are the last line of defense.

There are situations right now, CNN reported this week, where the administration is defying court orders to get them to freeze federal funds, for example.

[09:25:07]

KLOBUCHAR: So -- go ahead.

BASH: Are we in a constitutional crisis?

KLOBUCHAR: We're not quite there yet, because, ultimately, when the final court order is made, the Trump administration is going to have to decide -- and this isn't just at the top. These are lower-level people as well -- are they going to face contempt charges?

In the past, in the last administration, they did follow the court orders, and you do have voices in the United States Senate, like Senator Thune, the leader, or people like Chuck Grassley, even Josh Hawley, saying that you have to follow the rule of law.

But if they don't, the court has inherent powers to find them in contempt, which, of course, could mean going to jail. And I'm not surprised that the courts are stepping in. Of course, it's Democratic attorney generals across the country that are bringing these cases.

But they have basically said, no, Elon Musk cannot start rifling through the data of Americans. That violates their privacy. No, you cannot take an agreement that was made between Democrats and Republicans to fund cancer research for kids and just stop that research in its tracks. That's where you see the courts stepping up.

BASH: Do you think that -- one of your powers, obviously, the big power in Congress is the power of the purse. Do you agree with what Senator Cory Booker told me last week, that perhaps you should withhold votes on a funding bill to keep the government open past the March 14 deadline as leverage? Will you shut down the government?

KLOBUCHAR: I didn't see that interview, but I know what our position is, and that is that, and Cory's, and that it is not Democrats who are going to shut this government down.

We want to keep the government open. Every sign of that, every court case we're bringing gives you that evidence. It is Republicans that are running the government. They're running the presidency and Congress right now. And it is up to them. It is up to them to keep that government running.

They better learn how to run it, because right now it is pure chaos.

BASH: It sounds like you're going to be no-votes by what you just said.

KLOBUCHAR: No, what we are doing is trying to work with them to get a budget together.

BASH: OK.

KLOBUCHAR: And we are not going to shut this government down. They are the ones that have been shutting the government down by freezing funds and doing all kinds of things.

BASH: Well...

KLOBUCHAR: To me, it's a pretty ridiculous argument because of the fact that it is they are the ones that are causing the chaos right now, and they are not standing up to Donald Trump.

They have decided they want to find $2 trillion for their tax cuts for the wealthiest. And we're fine with tax cuts for people making under $400,000 a year, but we're talking about the wealthiest of the wealthiest and their buddies, Elon Musk. So they're looking for that money anywhere they can find it, whether it's on the backs of rural America, whether it's on the backs of veterans, whether it is on the backs of cancer research.

I was just at the University of Minnesota and was just amazed by the work that they're doing right now and saw all of these lifesaving cures and treatments they have developed.

BASH: Senator...

KLOBUCHAR: That is what's at stake here.

BASH: Senator, we're almost out of time.

Speaking of Minnesota, your colleague from Minnesota Tina Smith said that she's not going to seek reelection in 2026. Do you think that the governor, Tim Walz, should run?

KLOBUCHAR: As far as I know, the governor is running for governor, and I just spoke with him in the last week. We have a very deep bench of candidates in Minnesota. We're going to win this seat.

And I am looking forward to working with our nominee to make sure they get elected. I think the bigger picture here, though, is that Democrats, we are in this big time all across the country. We're in it with the courts and our Democratic attorney generals and making sure we're standing up for regular people.

We're in it with Congress, with our oversight and pushing so hard on these nominees. And, finally, we're in it with our constituents. And our phone system is, like, breaking in Congress. We're using their e- mails as evidence to make the case for the American people.

And you see now that 66 percent of people believe in the last polling that Donald Trump is not doing enough to bring down costs. Republicans aren't doing -- they better get to what they promised to do, which is to work with us to bring down housing, childcare, and health care costs.

BASH: Yes. That's what we want to do. He also promised disruption. And, on that, he is keeping his promise.

Senator, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you. Great to be on, Dana.

BASH: This week, the Trump administration stumbled into nuclear negligence. Will the president cut too deeply into federal bureaucracy?

My panel will be here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:34:10]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We got elected to, among other things, find all of this fraud, abuse, all of this horrible stuff going on. And we have already found billions of dollars, not like a little bit, billions, many billions of dollars.

We have to make our government smaller, more efficient, more effective, and a lot less expensive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. My panel is here now.

And I just want to start with that, which is the thousands of federal employees who've been fired in departments from HHS to Veterans Affairs, Energy Department, and the layoffs where more than 300 staffers Thursday night -- and this is what is part of this that I want to get into -- more than 300 staffers Thursday night at the National Nuclear Security Administration.

This is the agency tasked with managing the nation's nuclear stockpiles. Now, sources told CNN the officials didn't seem to know this agency oversees America's nuclear weapons. They began rescinding terminations Friday morning.

[09:35:11]

Congressman Riley Moore, first of all, thank you for being here, both -- and Congresswoman Laura Gillen.

REP. RILEY MOORE (R-WV): Thanks for having me. BASH: As a Republican member of Congress, how does that make you feel? Do you feel a little bit less safe?

MOORE: No, I don't feel any less safe.

And I just first want to say my prayers are going out to the folks in West Virginia. We had a bad flood last night and a lot of people are in a lot of hurt there.

But to address the issue is, no, I don't. And what's going on here is we're running a playbook that had worked previously under President Bill Clinton and Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich. As you probably recall, they had laid off, President Bill Clinton, 377,000 federal employees in cuts and were able to come to the table with the Republican Congress and actually create a balanced budget.

And that's what we got to do here is try to bend the curve in terms of the spending that's been going on in this country. We are obviously spending more than we're taking in. We have to get on the right track. We're paying a trillion dollars just on the interest alone. And that's what they're trying to do is find the waste, fraud and abuse and find efficiencies where they can be sought.

REP. LAURA GILLEN (D-NY): So, look, I'm all for tightening the belt of government. I was the first Democrat in 112 years to be elected to supervise the largest town in America. And I ran on a platform of government efficiency and eliminating waste, fraud and abuse in government.

But this is not the way to do. It has to be done in compliance and in accordance with the law. And it should be done in an organized fashion. I think certainly dismissing people who are safeguarding our nuclear arsenal and then going, oh, wait a second, we didn't mean to fire you, please come back, oh, wait, we don't know where you are, we don't know your e-mail, does anybody know what -- the e-mails of any of these folks who are supposed to be coming back to protect our nuclear stockpile, that's not the way to do it.

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So people have been telling voters for decades that I'm going to go to Washington and I'm going to shake things up. I'm going to go to Washington and I'm going to disrupt things. And they never do it.

And so the fact that Donald Trump is actually doing it means that he does get a pretty long leash from a lot of voters. The difference is going to come if this disrupting of Washington, which is exactly what voters do want, turns into disrupting of people's lives.

And that's where I would encourage Republicans in the Trump administration to be cautious, that this Silicon Valley approach of move fast, break things, it has appeal. But in Silicon Valley, when you move fast and break things, you also fix things again really quickly.

And when it comes to government, government just doesn't really work like that. So adapting that mind-set to government, making sure that the things you break, if you break it, you're going to be able to fix it again really quickly, that is also the second piece of what voters are going to be expecting.

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, the congresswoman was right talking about running on waste, fraud, and abuse.

Listen, any of us who've been in government know, you can always make it more efficient. You can always make it move faster, make it communicate better. And the Democrats need to have an agenda that talks about -- excuse me -- an agenda that talks about how they want to change the government.

The thing I am a little bit worried about is that Donald Trump is making the case that he's change right? The scatter plot seems kind of crazy. The dots are all over the place. But if you plot through it, it looks like he's the way making the change and the Democrats might be the ones who are the obstacles to change.

And that's -- nobody wants to be the obstacle to change in this environment. The Americans want change. We have to offer good change, the kind of change is going to make the country a better place.

BASH: We have an elected Democrat right here.

GILLEN: Sure.

BASH: Are you worried that you're looking like the obstacle here?

GILLEN: I want to be very clear that I do believe that there's waste in our government that needs to be eliminated. But, again, it needs to be done in a comprehensive fashion.

And government does not work exactly the same way a business works. There are checks and balances in our government system. The congressman talked about coming to Congress and working with the administration, working with Congress on a budget. That would be great. I would love to work with the administration to cut waste, fraud, and abuse and to balance our budget.

But we're not getting a lot of communication from this administration. It's all being done without a lot -- with a real lack of transparency. And that's what I want to see. And that's what the American people want to see.

MOORE: Well, we have had a lot of conversations. So I was at the White House with about 15 other of my colleagues where we were hammering out this reconciliation deal.

And we have come to an agreeance on where we're going to go there. We know the Democrats aren't going to come on board with reconciliation. But that's where we're going to find a lot of these savings.

Now, on the other side, on the discretionary spending side, and I am an appropriator, we're going to go through that process. And that is likely, as it always is, a bipartisan product that's going to come out. And I think we are going to be able to hopefully find some savings in there, as we have seen the administration find waste, fraud, and abuse in those discretionary accounts or agencies that are funded that way, USAID being one of those, right, and a lot of the other ones that they have been looking at.

SIMMONS: But I can just ask this question? Why aren't you talking to the Democrats ahead of time? You started out saying the Democrats will never come on board.

[09:40:03]

It doesn't seem like you're even asking the Democrats to come on board to see what ideas they have that might -- you might be able to find common ground.

MOORE: Well, what I have heard from the Democrats so far is that they potentially don't want to come together on an appropriations package and want to try to shut down the government over it. So that's where we're at now.

We have been trying to negotiate on a top-line number and we have not gotten there yet.

BASH: I just want to -- before we...

SIMMONS: Give peace a chance, Congressman. Give it a chance.

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: Oh, I'm all...

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: Before we take a break, I just want to give you a chance.

I know you're working on the reciprocal tariffs with the president.

MOORE: Yes, yes.

I have a piece of legislation for reciprocal tariffs. And the really important part to remember about the legislation that I have and what the president is talking about is those non-tariff barriers to trade, right? Those aren't the ones that you see kind of on the top line. That could be a VAT tax. Could be subsidies. It could be other things and regulations that are hurting us and having entry into those markets.

That's what we're trying to address there in a reciprocal manner and have reciprocity.

BASH: You have a Democrat nodding his head.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK) SIMMONS: It matters.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Yes.

SIMMONS: Access to markets, all those things actually matter. And the worry here is what the congresswoman got to, is that it's a blunt- force attack on government. It's not a kind of scalpel that actually will make America stronger and safer.

BASH: All right, speaking of that, J.D. Vance went to Europe, and he's leaving America's closest allies pretty stunned.

We will talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:46:02]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I worry about is the threat from within. I believe that dismissing people, dismissing their concerns, or, worse yet, shutting down media, shutting down elections, or shutting people out of the political process, protects nothing.

In fact, it is the most surefire way to destroy democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. My panel is with me now.

So, he says shutting down the media is a way to destroy democracy. As he was saying that here in the United States, the president and the White House banned the Associated Press from the Oval Office and Air Force One indefinitely for referring to the Gulf of Mexico as that, as opposed to the Gulf of America.

And that's not even getting into signing an executive order that banned discussion of DEI or transgender issues, and the list goes on.

Congresswoman?

GILLEN: Well, it's pure hypocrisy. And what J.D. Vance is doing in Germany is really concerning.

We have seen a spike in antisemitism in the United States just in my -- in New York, my home state. We had shocking incidents at Columbia. We had students afraid to go to school. The Anti-Defamation League has called out ADF (sic). And J.D. Vance is embracing a group that flirts with Nazism. It's really, really disturbing.

ADF (sic), the far right party.

GILLEN: The far right party in Germany.

MOORE: No, I'm sorry, he's not flirting with Nazism. What he's talking about here, what Vice President Vance is talking about, is the censorship and the manipulation of elections that have been happening in Europe. It's been happening on this side of the pond.

He is correct. He is 100 percent correct on this. And if we want free, fair elections, people got to stop meddling.

BASH: So should they let the Associated Press back in the White House?

MOORE: You know, the president can make the call of whoever he would like to have sit in those chairs. That's not -- that's not censorship. We're not stealing elections by doing something like that.

GILLEN: It's pure hypocrisy.

And let's not forget that ADF (sic)is a party that's being boosted by Elon Musk. So he's helping support Elon Musk do regime change in Germany.

BASH: But you wrote about J.D. Vance this week.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: I did.

I believe that J.D. Vance is extremely likely to be the next Republican nominee for president. And it's because his position in terms of taking a tougher stance when it comes to when we engage and provide resources around the world, when it comes to his stance around sort of social and cultural issues, he has found a way to connect with the newer generation of Republicans in a way that's pretty striking.

He's very good at using social media to deliver his message. And so I really believe that, whether you like him or not, he is very much the inheritor of the Trump mantle and is going to carry it on forward.

And when he goes somewhere like Europe and he's critical of Europe's own policies toward their own people, I mean, he did so in the shadow of a woman and her 2-year-old daughter being killed by an Afghan refugee over in Munich. I mean, when you see a party like the AfD potentially going to make gains in the German elections, it's not because of somebody like a J.D. Vance flirting with Nazism.

SIMMONS: No.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: It's because the public in Germany is upset.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: As you come in, I just want to say, you think that J.D. Vance is potentially the next nominee. Trump is not ready to say that yet.

SIMMONS: Trump is not ready to say that. And I got to tell you, it's tough to be the vice president. It's a really tough job to elevate yourself to the... (CROSSTALK)

MOORE: You might know something about that.

SIMMONS: I know something about that, having seen somebody do it up close.

But here's the thing. He is actually embracing and leaning into the AfD in Germany and giving them space. We have an administration that forgave January 6 rioters who attacked police officers. We have an administration that's building military camps for migrants on military bases, including Guantanamo Bay.

I thought we were out of Guantanamo Bay. We're trying to get out of there. And then, lastly, they're going to try -- they want to welcome and take care of Afrikaners in South Africa who feel like maybe they have been discriminated against after they oppressed black South Africans for generations?

I just think that the trend line of this administration -- and we're not even talking about Elon Musk's hand signals, right? The trend line of this administration is one that's away from liberty, freedom, and all the values and justice that this country is supposed to stand for around the world. People respect us, they admire us, and they want to be one of us.

[09:50:11]

BASH: We're going to have...

SIMMONS: And that's not the administration we're leaning into right now around the world.

BASH: Thank you.

We're going to have to leave it there. Before we go, I just want to ask, do you think that your governor, Kathy Hochul, should remove Mayor Adams from his job?

GILLEN: I think Mayor Adams is not above the law. I think that he's distracted. He's worrying about what's going on. And I think she should remove him, yes.

BASH: OK. Thank you. Thanks to all of you. Great discussion.

So, what are we going to be talking about next week? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:55:17]

BASH: Here are some of the key questions we're keeping an eye on this week.

Which federal agencies will Trump and Musk slash next? And what does it mean for you? Will President Trump help divided Republicans figure out how to pass his agenda? And, perhaps most crucially, what, if any, concessions can Donald Trump get Vladimir Putin to accept as talks begin over Russia's war against Ukraine?

We will be covering all of that and more. So be sure to tune in all week.

Stay with us, though, right now, because Fareed Zakaria is up next.