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State of the Union

Interview With Rep. Debbie Dingell (D-MI); Interview With White House Border Czar Tom Homan; Interview With Rep. Tony Gonzales (R-TX); Interview With Sen. Alex Padilla (D-CA). Aired 9-10a ET

Aired July 13, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Immigration standoff. President Trump's deportation drive draws a new stinging rebuke.

THOMAS HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: You all can scream all you want. You're not going to stop ICE from doing our job.

BASH: As farm raids escalate in California, will the president stand down or dig in? White House border czar Tom Homan and California Senator Alex Padilla join me in two exclusive interviews.

Plus: road to recovery. Texas reels from deadly floods, with at least 150 still missing.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My administration is doing everything in its power to help Texas.

BASH: With demand for answers growing, what does accountability look like? I will ask Texas Congressman Tony Gonzales, who went with the president to the disaster zone.

And MAGA meltdown. Trump's strongest supporters revolt after the Jeffrey Epstein probe falls flat.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: How many of you are not satisfied with the results of the investigation?

(CHEERING)

BASH: As the president pushes his party to leave it behind, will his allies fall in line or continue to fight back? Our panel breaks it all down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is not having a slow summer. We start this morning on the latest in the president's immigration

crackdown amid a legal setback for the administration's deportation efforts. A federal judge late Friday ordered federal agents to stop immigration arrests that she determined were based solely on characteristics like race, ethnicity, language or occupation.

It comes as we're learning this morning that an undocumented migrant has died after an ICE raid earlier this week. That's according to his family. And clashes between protesters and federal agents over deportations in California continue to escalate.

Meanwhile, President Trump unleashed yet another new tariff threat this weekend against Mexico and the European Union, vowing a new 30 percent tariff on August 1, and sparked new concern from allies.

We start, though, on the escalating battle over those recent immigration raids and where the administration goes from here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Here with me now is President Trump's border czar, Tom Homan.

Thank you so much for joining me this morning, sir.

I do want to start with that ruling. The judge ordered the administration to stop making indiscriminate immigration arrests in the Los Angeles area and denying detainees right to legal counsel.

She wrote that -- quote -- "Roving patrols without reasonable suspicion violate the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, and denying access to lawyers violates the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution."

Will the administration comply with this order?

HOMAN: Look, we're going to litigate that order, because I think the order's wrong.

I mean, she's assuming that the officers don't have reasonable suspicion. They don't need probable cause to briefly detain and question somebody. They just need reasonable suspicion. And that's based on many articulable facts.

So, unless she's in the officer's mind, I don't know if she would make that decision that, well, they're not using reasonable suspicion. How does she know that? I mean, every officer has to bring articulable facts to raise reasonable suspicion, and then they can briefly detain.

BASH: Well...

HOMAN: I don't know how she knows that, but I don't think any federal judge can dictate immigration policy. That's a matter for Congress and for the president. And I know Department of Justice is going to litigate it. So we're going to take it to the appeals court.

BASH: Let's talk about that reasonable suspicion and what it actually means on the ground when it comes to ICE detaining people.

You said in an interview this week that reasonable suspicion can be based on -- quote -- "the location, their occupation, their physical appearance, their actions."

What about an individual's physical appearance would give immigration agents -- quote -- "reasonable suspicion" that they might be in the U.S. illegally?

HOMAN: Well, first of all, let me be clear. Physical description can't be the sole factor to give you reasonable suspicion.

As I said in that interview, it's articulable facts, with an S. So appearance can be just one. For instance, if someone has an MS-13 tattoo on their face, that may be one factor to add to other factors to raise reasonable suspicion.

[09:05:01]

I want to be clear about that again, because my words were taken out of context. Physical description cannot be the sole reason to detain and question somebody. That can't be the sole reason to raise reasonable suspicion. It's a myriad of factors. And I could sit here for the next half-hour and give you all the factors.

So, every officer -- every situation is different. But I can tell you this, that every ICE officer goes through Fourth Amendment training every six months, and reminded what their authorities are for arrest, detention, and questioning. So, the officers are very well-trained.

So, I look forward to DOJ litigating this judge's decision, because I don't -- I think she is making a decision without knowing what that officer knows when they get out of that vehicle to question somebody.

BASH: So, what that judge, same judge in the case, said is that an individual's race or ethnicity, the language they speak or their accent, their presence at a particular location, like a bus stop or a worksite, or the type of work they do does not qualify as reasonable suspicions.

HOMAN: Well, like I said, it's just -- these are factors that lead to reasonable suspicion. There's a myriad of factors. Every case is different.

I'm not going to disagree with everything the judge has said, because a location alone shouldn't have reasonable suspicion. It's a combination of articulable facts that an officer determines before he detains somebody for a short period of time and questions them.

So, again, every case is different, different articulable facts from different people in different places.

BASH: Yes, you...

HOMAN: So, I -- and, again, I look forward to litigation. I think we will win this on appeal. BASH: OK, so, obviously, you're appealing, but, until that happens,

the administration will comply with the judge's order?

HOMAN: The administration is never going to go against a judge's order. We will litigate it. We will win it.

BASH: OK.

HOMAN: And then we will get back to doing what we're doing.

BASH: I just want to ask more broadly, and a little bit of a different sort of question here. One thing I have heard over and over anecdotally is that people who are in the United States legally, legally, are scared about getting swept up in all of this because of the color of their skin, because they speak with an accent, because of the location where they might be going.

And they're not going out. They don't want to be detained by mistake, have their kids or themselves traumatized. Are you comfortable with that?

HOMAN: There's no -- if they're in the country legally, they got no reason to be afraid.

ICE is looking for those in the country illegally. And we're still prioritizing public safety threats and national security threats. That's the priority. But, like I said, we do have collateral arrests in many areas because we're out looking for those public safety threats.

But we're going to enforce immigration law too. I mean, it's not OK to be in this country illegally. It's not OK to enter this country illegally. It's a crime. But legal aliens shouldn't and U.S. citizens should not be afraid that they're going to be swept up in a raid. We know who we're looking for. And that's who the agents are out there seeking.

And they -- again, they use a lot of information. Most of the operations we conduct our targeted enforcement operations. When we go out, we know exactly who we're looking for, most likely where we will find them. Many times, we have a criminal history and immigration history...

BASH: Yes.

HOMAN: ... when we go out looking for that person.

BASH: You...

HOMAN: So, if you're in the country legally, you shouldn't fear ICE.

BASH: Well...

HOMAN: But what you should fear is the criminal aliens walking the communities in sanctuary cities.

BASH: Well, but you just said that there are -- quote -- "collateral arrests."

And that is sparking fear in communities, where people are...

HOMAN: Dana...

BASH: ... again, scared to go out.

So, I guess my question is, do you have compassion for those people who are seeing what's going on, hearing you speak, seeing what's happening in their neighborhoods, shouldn't have any concern, but do just because of the reality of what they're seeing?

HOMAN: The bottom line -- no, Dana, the bottom line is, if you want less collateral arrests, then let us in the jail.

I mean, we want to arrest a bad guy in the safety and security of a county jail. But sanctuary cities are releasing them into the community, which means we got to go into the community and find him. And when we find that bad person, many, many times, whether it's at a worksite or in a community, they're with other people, other people in the United States illegally.

And we're going to let ICE enforce the law, uphold the oath they took. We're not going to be like the last administration, who told ICE, instructed ICE, you can't arrest somebody for simply being here illegally. They got to be convicted of a serious offense.

That's not what the law says.

BASH: Yes.

HOMAN: We're enforcing the law.

But, look, immigration enforcement -- I'm going to be clear. Immigration enforcement's always been emotional. It's always been controversial. I have been doing this since 1984. I get it. And I understand why people want to come to the greatest nation on Earth. I get it.

But we can't send the message to the whole world that it's OK to enter this country illegally, don't worry about it. Even though it's a crime, come and enter illegally. And when you get an order of removal from a judge, you don't have to leave. You can become a fugitive, and we will never look for you.

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We got to send a message to the whole world there are consequences of breaking laws. And I think that's why, one of the reasons we have the most secure border in history of this nation today. It's just not because you got boots on the ground on the border, not because we ended catch-and-release.

A lot of it is consequences. You're watching what's happening. We're enforcing the immigration law. And I think that consequence has a lot to do with having the most secure border in the history of this nation.

BASH: But let's turn to the raids this week on two cannabis farms in California. ICE says more than 200 undocumented immigrants were detained.

The United Farm Workers union says multiple workers were critically injured. One, 57-year-old Jaime Alanis Garcia, died after falling 30 feet from a greenhouse roof while fleeing ICE agents. That's according to his family.

What's your reaction to that, somebody losing their life running from ICE?

HOMAN: It's sad. It's unfortunate. He wasn't in ICE custody. And ICE did not have hands on this person.

But it is always unfortunate when there's deaths. I mean, no one wants to see people die. And it's -- they were doing the job. They were serving criminal arrest warrants -- I mean, criminal search warrants. And I see the media saying, well, it was an ICE raid. No, they were serving criminal search warrants as part of a criminal investigation involved with child trafficking and child labor.

Now, I think it was a total of 11 children that were found on that farm. And now they're being interviewed, forensics interviews, find out, are they victims of trafficking? If so, who is the subject of that trafficking? And let's hold some people accountable.

So it's unfortunate when anybody dies.

BASH: I do want to turn to what is going on in Florida. And that is what the administration, what you call Alligator Alcatraz was visited by Democratic members of Congress yesterday. They were given limited access.

And this, of course, was -- is a new detention facility set up by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. What these congresspeople described was sweltering heat, bug infestations, meager meals. They say they heard detainees crying out for help. The wife of one man detained there said he's not been given access to a lawyer, he's been in detention for about two weeks.

Is that acceptable to you? And is that what you're seeing when you go?

HOMAN: I have not been there yet. And I doubt a lot of that's factual.

I mean, bottom line is, I -- from the day one -- I have been doing this job since 1984 -- detainees complain about the conditions of detention. And I have said this many times. You can simply go to ICE.gov and look at the detention standards ICE has. They have the highest detention standards in the industry.

But these same congressmen that are complaining about Alligator Alcatraz, you didn't seem them complaining about, under Biden administration, people being held in a Border Patrol parking lot surrounded by a fence in the sweltering heat, not a word.

You didn't hear a word about half-a-million children being trafficked in the country and them not being able to locate 300,000. President Trump, this administration is finding thousands of those children.

So they have -- they have a lot of anger under President Trump and how we're doing business, and they ignored four years of open borders, historic migrant death, historic Americans dying from fentanyl, historic numbers of women and children being sex-trafficked, historic number of people on the terrorist watch list coming across the border.

BASH: Sir...

HOMAN: Silence. Silence, because they're complicit because they didn't take the administration on and ask them to secure the border.

You can't have strong national security in this country if you don't have border security. We got to know who's coming and what's coming, where's coming. But, instead, they kept silent and they kept feeding the American people we have a secure border, and we did not.

BASH: OK. Mr. Homan, I know you have to go to catch a plane. Thank you so much for being here this morning. I appreciate it.

HOMAN: Thanks. Thank you for having me, Dana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Up next, California's senior Democratic senator, Alex Padilla, is here live with his response.

Plus: He was on the ground with President Trump on Friday in Texas. The latest on the tragedy. We will have Republican Congressman Tony Gonzales ahead.

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BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

You just heard President Trump's border czar defending the administration's sweeping migrant detentions.

Here with me now for an exclusive interview is Democratic Senator Alex Padilla of California.

Thank you so much for being here.

What he, Tom Homan, did was say that the federal judge was just plain wrong. And what the judge ruled, just so our viewers know, on Friday is that the tactics that ICE is using are likely a violation of the Constitution, suggesting that immigration agents are detaining people -- quote -- "based on race alone."

Homan said, that's just not true. What do you think? SEN. ALEX PADILLA (D-CA): Well, it wouldn't be the first time the

Trump administration tries to just dismiss a court order. And so it's our job to ensure that we uphold the law, uphold the Constitution.

I mean, Homan has said it very clearly in other interviews. They're not even asking for significant findings to detain people. They're going based on appearance, his words, not mine, based on occupation, his words, not mine. Based on accents, physical appearance?

Then what if I was outside a Home Depot because I like to do some work around the house, not dressed in a suit? Would I be a target of ICE enforcement under Tom Homan? Probably. And it's just wrong. It's not just due process rights that have become the concern, but racial profiling.

[09:20:18]

When federal agents involved in immigration enforcement are using racial profiling, they're not enforcing the law. They are breaking it.

BASH: And I basically asked him about that. He said that he's being misunderstood, that it's factors, with an S, and not a factor, like the way somebody looks or the way they talk.

PADILLA: Yes, but he laid out the factors that he's encouraging them to consider. Again, it is appearance. It's accents. It's occupation, again, construction workers, farmworkers, you name it. The evidence is out there.

And here's another thing about evidence. He claims to be prioritizing those violent, dangerous criminals. We have been hearing this ad nauseam from the Trump administration going back to the campaign trail. The numbers suggest otherwise. The vast majority of people that have been detained, and even those deported, have no serious criminal conviction history.

If it was only going after dangerous criminals, there would be no debate, no discussion. That's -- I agree with that. But the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of those being detained are the same people who were deemed essential workers at the end of the first Trump administration at the outset of the COVID-19 pandemic. That's a cruel, cruel irony.

BASH: We learned overnight that a migrant farmworker died after he fell from a roof during ICE raids in Ventura County in your state. Have you been able to talk to the family?

PADILLA: I haven't spoken with the family directly, but I have been in touch with president Teresa Romero of the United Farm Workers union. I have known her for a long time. We have been in touch over the last several days. She's been with the family and other families of people that are literally terrorized and traumatized based on what ICE is doing.

Again, if all they're doing is going after serious violent criminals, that'd be one thing. But because of these artificial quotas established by whether it's Donald Trump or Stephen Miller or somebody in the administration, it's causing ICE to get more aggressive, more cruel, more extreme, and these are the results.

It's people dying because of fear and terror caused by this administration. It's not just undocumented immigrants. There's lawful immigrants that are being rounded up. There's United States citizens that are being detained. There are military veterans that are being detained.

BASH: He called it the lateral arrests.

PADILLA: Excuse me?

BASH: He called it collateral arrests.

PADILLA: Yes, that's how dismissive they are about the people impact, let alone the economic impact that we're all going to be paying.

BASH: Let me ask you about some of the unrest that's happening in and around the ICE agents as well.

Officials are looking for a suspect who appeared to fire a gun at a federal agent during a raid. A few days before that, 10 people were arrested after opening fire outside an immigration detention facility in Texas, injuring a police officer. Authorities say it was a planned ambush.

Earlier this week, a man with a rifle in tactical gear was shot dead after firing at Texas Border Patrol, at least the facility. Are you worried that heated rhetoric around this and around the policies are actually putting law enforcement agents at risk?

PADILLA: First, let me just denounce any violence. Any violence against law enforcement is unacceptable.

Do I think heated rhetoric is part of what's causing this response? Sadly, yes. And we have seen this administration escalate and escalate and escalate in all ways and matters, whether it's the tactics of -- with which they're going about immigration enforcement. There's a smarter, more effective way to do this than what they're doing.

BASH: Well, they say that it's the Democrats' rhetoric, some calling ICE agents secret police, comparing them to the Gestapo.

PADILLA: Well, I wouldn't use those words, but I do have concern when there are no requirements for ICE agents or other federal agents involved with the immigration enforcement actions to not even identify themselves.

I mean, if you're a member of a working-class immigrant community, and you see unmarked cars roll into your community, people getting out of those cars with no identifiers that they are law enforcement, and literally not just detaining, in your mind, maybe kidnapping.

So that's why Senator Booker and I have this bill to require that identification for ICE agents or anybody involved with immigration enforcement. It's for the safety of the officers and agents, as well as safety for the community...

BASH: Well, the...

PADILLA: ... and to protect against people exploiting the circumstances, impersonating ICE agents and getting involved with burglary, theft, kidnapping, sexual assault and worse.

BASH: The president, as you know, says that they wear masks to protect their own identity from people who want to go after law enforcement.

[09:25:04]

I do want to change gears, because we're almost out of time, to the tariffs that President Trump announced this weekend, 30 percent tariffs on goods from Mexico, 35 percent tariff on goods from Canada starting August 1.

Canada and Mexico are two of your state's biggest trading partners. Do you think, A, they will go into effect, and what -- if they do, what effect that will have on the businesses and consumers in your state?

PADILLA: Yes, both Canada and Mexico aren't just the largest trading partners for the state of California. They're among the largest trading partners for the United States of America. And so let's remember what happens when tariffs take effect.

Those -- first of all, costs will increase, and the people who pay that price increase are United States consumers. It's U.S. companies importing products from those countries that will pass along the cost to the American consumer. So, in effect, it's a tax increase on the American people brought to you by Donald Trump.

BASH: I do want to ask about something that is not just bubbling, but kind of exploding, within the MAGA movement, and that is the Jeffrey Epstein case, specifically the way the Trump administration has handled it.

He, the president, is defending the attorney general, Pam Bondi, after the DOJ released a memo saying that, contrary to what we have heard from them before, that there is no so-called Epstein client list. You are on the committee that oversees the Department of Justice. Are you going to push them to overturn any and all Epstein files?

PADILLA: So, well, I think we have in the past. But it wouldn't be the first time there is a say one thing, do another coming out of Donald Trump, saying one thing on the campaign trail and then once in office have a change of tune.

Unfortunately, it's another sign of the chaos and disorder within the Trump administration.

BASH: So, you have in the past. Are you interested in seeing these files?

PADILLA: Yes. BASH: Is it something that's a priority for Democrats?

PADILLA: I mean, I think it's -- the first question is whether the list they claim to exist exists. They can't have it both ways.

BASH: OK.

Senator, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

PADILLA: Thank you, Dana.

BASH: And up next: new questions about how local Texas officials responded to the warnings ahead of the deadly flooding. Texas Congressman Tony Gonzales will be here next.

And, as you just heard, President Trump is fighting back this weekend after a real explosion of disagreement between him and some in his administration and others in his movement, some of his closest allies, over Jeffrey Epstein. What's going to happen?

Our panel will weigh in ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:31:47]

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

More than 120 people have died and at least 150 more are still missing in Texas.

Here with me now is Texas Republican Congressman Tony Gonzales, who was with President Trump on a visit there on Friday.

Thank you so much for being here.

Obviously, as I mentioned, you were with the president on Friday. But now the Guadalupe River is forecast to reach a flood stage again as soon as this afternoon. How is your community doing, first of all, and how concerned are you about additional flooding?

REP. TONY GONZALES (R-TX): Yes, good morning, Dana -- Dana.

I'm very concerned. Uvalde is 80 miles from Hunt, Texas. And we know what happened in Uvalde three years ago with that tragic school shooting.

This reminds me a lot of that. The community is completely shocked and overwhelmed in so many different ways. And so, right now, it's currently raining. There's flash flood warnings. Sonora, Texas, which is about 100 miles from Hunt, Texas, they had a citywide evacuation notice that went out.

And so we're not out of the woods yet, not to mention that the recovery zone area there along that river is 121 miles. So it is a very massive undertaking. I'm very concerned about us going forward. BASH: I mean, obviously, one of the big takeaways was the lack of

preparedness in various ways a week ago Friday. What about now?

GONZALES: Yes.

No, I think part of that -- the city of Sonora issuing this evacuation, I think that's part of it, is other communities are taking notice and trying to get ahead of it. I will say the president -- the DHS secretary, she was on the ground the day after the event. And I appreciated that.

And we have to remember all the heroes that helped save so many lives, like Scott Ruskan, the Coast Guardsman that saved hundreds of lives. There's so many neighbors that have come and done the same thing. We have to tell some of these stories as well, because, when tragedy happens, oftentimes, we just see the tragedy. There's all these other wonderful stories of Americans just helping Americans.

BASH: No question. And we have been telling those stories. It's truly remarkable how many heroes were involved with rescues during that time and even since in the recovery effort.

You mentioned a connection between this tragedy and Uvalde. Obviously, the circumstances were very different. You do represent Uvalde. But one thing that I think is very similar is the demand for accountability from the government. Do you believe there should be accountability?

GONZALES: Absolutely, 100 percent.

And this is one of the -- one of my takeaways when President Trump visited was, he brought up accountability. He brought up the fact that he was -- he was willing to listen and hear out and figure out, what is the way forward? How can we -- if there is something indeed that we can do to be more on the front end of any tragedy like this -- these flash floods happened.

A few weeks before this in San Antonio, Texas, we had 13 people that were killed because of these flash floods. What I also -- what I also thought was interesting at that roundtable, the governor also mentioned that. And Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick mentioned that they -- the Texas legislature was going to have a session.

[09:35:17]

And they were going to have hearings to take place to go, hey, is there technology? Like, what can we do in order to prevent this from happening again? To me, that is a level of accountability that we need to have going forward. We can't just allow girls to drown in the middle of the night. We have to make sure we protect everyone.

BASH: Yes. I mean, it's just -- even hearing you say that, it's just stomach-churning.

Congressman, I do want to turn to a different issue. And that is immigration, because you recently wrote the director of ICE, urging him to focus more on going after violent offenders and criminals. We have been talking throughout the show about those raids in California.

Is what you're seeing there the kind of thing you want the Trump administration to be doing less of?

GONZALES: Well, I'd like them to enforce the laws, right? Regardless of where that takes them, I think it's very important that we enforce our laws. That has to be clear.

I also would like to not see the ICE agents be under attack. It's not -- they're not the ones that issue policy. It's the administration and it's Congress. They're the only -- they're the ones that execute it.

I would like them to focus on these convicted criminal illegal aliens, which there's over 600,000. I think that's an area that unites us as a country. We can all get behind getting the murderers and the rapists and these bad actors out of our communities. If you focus there, I think that is -- one, that is an area of need. It also keeps us safe and it also delivers on President Trump's agenda.

So, once again, passing this reconciliation bill gives a lot of resources to DHS to go out and do that. I'm pushing them to focus on these convicted criminal illegal aliens.

BASH: Congressman, before we go, the president says he's putting a 30 percent tariff on all goods from Mexico, your state's biggest trading partner. Will they hurt your constituents, the tariffs?

GONZALES: It may, but I do support the president in this. I think, for too long, Mexico has gotten away with -- allowed to do anything.

But I'm very focused on the August 1 date. What that means is, President Trump has given us a couple weeks to try to come up with a solution. And I have seen Mexico from -- change, from months ago basically being allowed to do whatever they want to now all of a sudden they're coming to the table, they're negotiating more.

President Trump has mentioned this. They're moving in the right direction. We absolutely have to do more.

BASH: OK.

GONZALES: But, yes, if these tariffs come into place, it hurts everyone.

BASH: OK, Congressman, thank you so much for being here this morning. I really appreciate it.

GONZALES: Thank you.

BASH: And up next: We heard this past week President Trump say nobody cares about the Epstein files. He obviously knows his base cares a lot.

My panel brings all of the latest information that we're hearing about the breakdown inside MAGA on this issue next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:51]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: It's not about just a pedophile ring and all that. It's about who governs us, right? And that's why it's not going to go away. You're going to lose 10 percent of the MAGA movement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's insulting our intelligence. Like, obviously, the intelligence community is trying to cover it up. Obviously, the Trump administration is trying to cover up.

TUCKER CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS ANCHOR: The current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

As you just heard there, MAGA world, they're in an uproar this week after the Trump administration announced that there is no so-called Jeffrey Epstein client list. There are powerful voices in the MAGA base beyond what you heard even for whom this is a very big issue. They're not buying it.

My panel joins me now.

David Urban, did you ever think that this would be a thing that would sort of break apart MAGA, whether it's temporary or not?

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I mean, I don't think -- and, at the end of the day, I don't know if it's going to break apart MAGA.

But the issue is bigger. Steve Bannon, I think, nails it here directly. It's really not about Jeffrey Epstein. It's about accountability. And I think the base -- you heard Trump talk about this for a long time. There's a two-tier system of justice in America.

And the elites get protected, and the FBI protects them and the deep state protects them. And I think that's what the base is looking at here, the MAGA base is looking at. And they want accountability for people who may or may not be on this list who may be rich and powerful and famous, and that somehow the government, writ large, is looking the other way.

And they see large investigations on January 6, on Russiagate, on the president, on these huge investigations that take years. And they think, why aren't we putting the same sort of resources in here when there is child sex abuse involved and very powerful people?

And so that lends itself to not just the kind of fringe element saying this, but a lot of rational, reasonable people are asking, why aren't we looking at this more deeply? BASH: So after the president during a Cabinet meeting got angry at a

"New York Post" reporter for asking why anybody is still talking about the Epstein files, he heard the answer to that. And it's because his base, obviously, is hearing about it.

He put out a very long post on his social media platform yesterday. I will just read part of it. "We're on one team, MAGA, and I don't like what's happening. We have a perfect administration, the talk of the world, and selfish people are trying to hurt it all over a guy who never dies, Jeffrey Epstein. For years, it's Epstein over and over again. One year ago, our country was dead."

[09:45:17]

And he went on to say that we need to not waste time and energy on Epstein.

So that was not -- I'm going to bring you in, but that was not -- I think it actually maybe perhaps made things worse -- worse for some people in the -- who have very loud megaphones in the MAGA base. Let's just watch one, Benny Johnson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENNY JOHNSON, CONSERVATIVE PERSONALITY: By admitting that the Epstein files are real and have been written and that you have read them, and you don't like their contents, and they were written by your enemies, it doesn't make -- it doesn't make the most compelling case, as far as I'm concerned.

Holy moly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FAIZ SHAKIR, FOUNDER, MORE PERFECT UNION: A lot of people don't -- might not remember this, but the White House wound this up. They promised and they pledged this.

Dan Bongino, a bunch of others said that they would release the Epstein files. And on February 27, they brought in -- the White House did, the White House 15 influencers to say, hey, hold these binders and walk out of the White House with these binders that say the Epstein files phase one.

And there were two things going on there. One is, they thought that they could delude a lot of the right wing, that, hey, we have released the Epstein files. Look, you're holding them. And, to their credit, a lot of the right-wing influencers said, baloney, all you have given us is the stuff that's already publicly available.

So they felt used and suckered. They said, where's my phase two, where's my phase three? So I would say to Donald Trump, you wound this up. You caused this. And I think I'm on the side of these right-wing influencers who say, hey, if you want to be a paragon of virtue and say you want to take on the powerful, and Epstein, we got a bunch of Jane Does and John Does in those, release them unredacted. BASH: Kristen, Steve Bannon says that this could cost Republicans the

House because the base will be depressed and not show up in the midterms.

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, we have got a long way to go until the midterms, but certainly you don't want to be in a situation where your most devoted supporters are threatening to withhold their vote.

I don't think it's likely that the MAGA base is suddenly going to decide to vote for Democrats, but you don't want to have any portion of your coalition depressed, especially if you're headed into an election where you're the party in power.

And this goes to this bigger dynamic of, being the party in power or being the folks in charge is more challenging than being the opposition. Being the opposition, you can sit on the outside and you can say, hey, don't you think things are terrible? Vote for me and we will make it better. When you're in charge, you have to deliver.

And especially if you have made big promises, not delivering on that can really matter. The thing that I do think will help Republicans or save Trump from too much damage in the situation is, I'm actually not confident that the median American voter is as spun up over this as somebody who is online.

BASH: Oh, definitely.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: And so there are a lot of people in Trump's coalition who are not plugged into right-wing influencers or the online conversation. They just want to know, is the economy getting better?

BASH: Congresswoman?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): So the election's a year out, which is a lifetime.

But I will say that I'm even hearing people talk about it out on the street. I think people do look at some of the corruption that they see inside this administration. And Jeffrey Epstein, like it or not, is a story that people have talked about for years. It has horrific sides to it. Women -- children were exploited.

And, I mean, many of these MAGA base has said, when Donald Trump gets there, we're going to see the list. We're going to see the list. And now they're not delivering the list. And people are angry. It's a pattern.

URBAN: I was going to say, Dana, the interesting part in Donald Trump's posting yesterday or last evening, the person that's not mentioned in there -- he comes to Pam Bondi's defense, tells Kash Patel, kind of get back to work.

Dan Bongino is specifically absent from that list. And so I'm wondering if, when the music stops, if he's the person without the chair, right, and he's the person who's going to go back to a career in podcasting and kind of with a bigger and more powerful base.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: And it'll also be -- remain to be seen, how much can Trump shield those who work with him? We know that Trump really engenders a lot of loyalty. He's well-loved by large swathes of the Republican Party.

But Trump has never been transferable. It's always been very hard to get that same kind of loyalty even to people who are very close to him.

SHAKIR: To your point, and I agree with it, that the economy is ultimately going to rule in the 2026 midterms.

But people are looking for a kind of framework of how to think about the economy. And Trump is out there doing tariffs and he's cutting Medicaid and he's doing taxes. And part of the Democratic argument has been that this is at the behest of a very powerful and rich person. What Epstein helps do is clarify, when you have got power, Mr. Trump, who do you fight for?

And this case is a really high-level one, where, OK, fine, it's not economic. But it's clear whose side you're on. Here's a person who's in the know in New York City. Every person Donald Trump knows, Jeffrey Epstein knew. They were best friends.

[09:50:06]

And you can't hold that person to account? He's dead. You can't hold him to account.

URBAN: Look, he agrees with the MAGA base. This is what they're saying, right? The rich and powerful aren't being held to account.

DINGELL: Look, I'm just going to tell you, you are absolutely right. But he is giving, -- we're more out there talking about who got hurt by the big, bad bill.

It is the people that he -- are friends with, he defends. He won in 2016, I told you he did, because he talked about trade and he got in those working-class halls. He, again, was paying attention to people that he's -- right now, the people that elected him are not getting the attention from Donald Trump they thought. He's not delivering on the promises he made to them.

BASH: Thank you all.

Don't go anywhere. Tonight on CNN, new interviews with Bono, Sting, Patti LaBelle, Lionel Richie.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:55:36]

BASH: Forty years ago, two rock stars inspired the largest global music event in history.

Premiering tonight, a new CNN original series, "Live Aid: When Rock 'n' Roll Took on the World."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's 12:00 noon in London, 7:00 a.m. in Philadelphia, and, around the world, it's time for Live Aid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We live in a world of surplus food. There is no reason why these human beings should die.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bob came in and said, I have got this idea.

BOB GELDOF, IRISH SINGER AND ACTIVIST: I'm very pleased to announce Live Aid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even the experts didn't have a clue whether it was going to work or not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My head was full of, it's going to be a disaster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be honest, it seemed like this could never happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one had ever had 16 hours of anything on television.

PAUL MCCARTNEY, MUSICIAN: It's a huge event. You know, it could be the start of something big.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That effort saved so many lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's coming from a good place, but it's coming from a very white, paternalistic place.

GELDOF: What Live Aid did was open up the avenues of possibility. Live Aid invites you to walk down them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was one of the last moments of global solidarity.

BONO, MUSICIAN: Something went on at Live Aid that's still with us.

NARRATOR: "Live Aid: When Rock 'n' Roll Took on the World."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Thank you for spending your Sunday morning with us.

Fareed Zakaria picks it up next.