Return to Transcripts main page
State of the Union
Now: Trump Meeting with E.U. Chief As Tariff Deadline Looms; Interview with Sen. Markwayne Mullin (R-OK); Interview with Sen. Mark Kelly (D-AZ). Aired 12-1p ET
Aired July 27, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00]
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you had a bad day on the golf course, it's okay. It's better than other days. But no, I think -- I look forward to this meeting.
You know, we've had a hard time with trade with Europe. Very hard time. And I'd like to see it resolved. But if it isn't, we'll, you know, have tariffs and they'll do what they have to do.
But we have a good chance of getting it resolved. We'll probably know in about an hour. It shouldn't take that long. It's, you know, it's complicated but not really complicated when you get right down to it, right?
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: The August 1st deadline, is there any chance that that gets --
TRUMP: No, no, the August 1st is there for everyone. The deals all start on August 1st.
Most of the deals other than steel and aluminum, which we've been getting 50 percent tariffs from, I guess just about everybody and those have come in and we've taken in, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars just on steel and aluminum. You've seen the numbers.
We had a tremendous amount of money coming over the last month. And it's coming in very rapidly, which is fair.
We have a lot of steel mills and plants, aluminum mills and plants being built. We have a lot of A.I. being built, and we have a lot of auto plants being built or going to be built because they don't want to pay tariffs. So, you know, if they don't want to pay tariffs, the best way to do it is just build your plant in the United States.
Yes, please?
REPORTER: Sir, what do you expect from the Europeans in terms of opening their markets to American products?
TRUMP: Well, they have to open up to American products. You know, we're open to European products and we have been for -- forever. I don't think we have -- just about don't have any, I don't think we have any product that we say you can't sell. I guess you could get a little bit cute with chips, but that's, you know, a little bit different category, too.
No, you know, Europe is very close. We don't sell cars into Europe. We don't sell essentially agriculture of any great degree. They want to have their farmers do it, and they want to have their car companies do it.
Every -- I'm just -- I'm not saying anything that nobody knows. We have a rough situation.
If we want to sell cars in Europe, we're not allowed to. And as you know, they sell millions and millions of cars, Mercedes, BMW, so many different -- Volkswagen, so many different cars and so many millions of cars.
I would imagine, number one -- I didn't look at that, but I would imagine number one by far more so than even Japan. Japan sells a lot of cars, too.
But the Japan deal worked out very favorably -- you know, very good, I think, I hope for them, too, and that's what we want to do. Make everybody happy.
Yes, please?
REPORTER: Mr. President, should Israel be doing more to allow food to Gaza?
TRUMP: Say it?
REPORTER: Should Israel be doing more to allow food into Gaza?
TRUMP: What did she say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Israel -- should Israel be doing more to allow food into Gaza?
TRUMP: Well, you know, we gave $60 million two weeks ago and nobody even acknowledged it for food. And it's terrible.
You know, you really at least want to have somebody say "thank you". No other country gave anything. We gave $60 million two weeks ago for food for Gaza.
And nobody acknowledged it. Nobody talks about it, and it makes you feel a little bad when you do that, and, you know, you have other countries not giving anything. None of the European countries, by the way, gave -- I mean, nobody gave but us and nobody said, gee, thank you very much. And it would be nice to have at least a thank you.
And I took a lot of heat, you know, when I -- when I do that, a lot of people aren't happy about that because they say, well, why are we doing it and nobody else? But I think we had a humanitarian reason for doing it. What's going to happen? I don't know, I can tell you that Hamas, as I
said, would happen at the end. You know, we've gotten back a lot of hostages, a tremendous number of hostages, most of them.
Now, we have dead hostages, and the mothers want them back. And we have 20 people approximately, but -- that are living. But we have a lot of bodies, and the parents want those bodies as much as they would want their child if that child were alive.
I was -- I met with parents that were -- it was so sad. Sir, please get my son back. How is your son doing? Well, he's dead, but they have his body and it's so important.
It's important -- more important. It's almost like more. But it's as important as if the child were living. These people were -- I mean, they're devastated.
And I said, when you get it down to a certain number, you're not going to be able to make a deal with Hamas, because once they give them up, then they feel that that's going to be the end of them.
And what I said is exactly true. You know, they had a routine discussion the other day, and all of a sudden, they hardened up. They don't want to give them back. And so, Israel is going to have to make a decision.
[12:05:01]
I know what I do, but I don't think it's appropriate that I say, but Israel is going to have to make a decision.
REPORTER: Mr. President, when you were in the Middle East, you talked about the images coming out of Gaza and the starving kids. Those images are still going, many of them are much worse, thinner children starving. What do you -- what do you see or feel when you look at those images?
TRUMP: Well, it's terrible. You know, when I see the children and when I see, especially over the last couple of weeks, and people are stealing the food, they're stealing the money, they're stealing the money for the food, they're stealing weapons. They're stealing everything. It's a mess.
That whole place is a mess. The Gaza Strip, you know, was given many years ago so that they could have peace. That didn't work out too well.
When Israel gave that up, whoever was the prime minister at the time, who I know who it was, but it was not exactly a very clever thing to do, because that was given so that they finally have peace. And it's actually made the situation worse. But we'll see what happens.
I think Iran is acting up. I think that we have a lot of people acting. We have Venezuela acting up in a different way. They're sending -- they continue to send people that we rebuffed to our border. They continue to send drugs into our country. Venezuela, they've been very nasty, and we can't let that happen. But
-- and we have other countries, too.
We do have -- and this is just getting a little off subject, but we have now the safest border we've ever had. And I think in many respects, we probably have the most successful, and I say it all the time, every leader, when I went to NATO the other day, every leader said, you have the hottest country in the world.
We have the hottest country in the world now. We're taking in hundreds of billions of dollars. We have the highest stock market we've ever had. We have the best numbers we've ever had, but we have hundreds of billions of dollars pouring into our country. And I think it's the hottest.
And by the way, one year ago, our country was dead. We had a dead country because of an incompetent president and incompetent Democrats. All they know how to do is talk and think about conspiracy theories and nonsense. If they'd waste their time talking about America being great again, it would be so much nicer, so much easier. Be very successful.
But we were a dead country and now we have the hottest country anywhere in the world.
Yeah. Any other question?
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: President Trump, on this particular deal, if you manage to do a deal today, will that be the end of the matter or could there be more tariffs coming, particularly on pharmaceuticals?
TRUMP: No. If we do a deal today with the European Union, that will be the end of it. Yeah. We're not won't -- we'll go I guess a number of years at least before we have to even discuss it again. No, that would be the end of it for -- and this is the biggest deal.
People don't realize this is bigger than any other deal. We have great countries, great countries. I'm familiar with many of them. So are you.
And this is really the biggest deal. This is the -- I guess we're the biggest out there and they're the second. And when we come together, this will be the biggest deal. If that happens and it could happen, it should happen. Okay? Thank you.
REPORTER: Pharmaceuticals -- will pharmaceuticals be part of today's --
TRUMP: No, it won't. Pharmaceuticals will be -- I mean, it could be -- we'll do something. But basically, pharmaceuticals won't be part of it because we have to have them built -- made in the United States. And we want them made in the United States.
And I think it's easy to say, and I think it's important to say pharmaceuticals are very special. We can't be in a position where we don't have -- where we're relying on other countries.
Now, Europe is going to make pharmaceuticals, drugs and everything else for us, too, a lot. But we're going to have also our own.
REPORTER: A question for President von der Leyen, please?
TRUMP: Yes.
REPORTER: Can you give your assessment of what you feel the chances are of? The president just talked about a 50/50 chance. And the biggest obstacle being fairness. What would you say are those things for you?
URSULA VON DER LEYEN, EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT: I think the president is right. We have a 50 to 50 percent chance to strike a deal. And indeed, it is about rebalancing. So, you can call it fairness.
TRUMP: Yeah.
VON DER LEYEN: You can call it rebalancing. We have a surplus. The United States has a deficit, and we have to rebalance it.
You have an excellent trade relation. It's a huge volume of trade that we have together. So, we will make it more sustainable.
REPORTER: Mr. Trump, can you do better than 15 percent tariff rate for the E.U.?
TRUMP: Better meaning lower?
REPORTER: Yeah.
TRUMP: No.
REPORTER: Mr. President, to return to Gaza, you're going to meet the British prime minister tomorrow. He's going to ask you to consider again peace talks between Israel and Hamas. Are you now saying there is no point --
TRUMP: Well, we're meeting about a lot of things. We have our trade deal and it's been a great deal. It's going to -- it's good for -- it's good for them and good for us. I think, you know, the U.K. is very happy.
[12:10:01]
They've been trying for 12 years to get it and they got it. And it's a great trade deal for both. It works out very well.
But we are discussing -- we'll be discussing that. I think we're going to be discussing a lot about Israel. They're very much involved in terms of wanting something to happen. He's doing a very good job, by the way.
REPORTER: Also on Gaza, sir, did you speak with Prime Minister Netanyahu this weekend about getting more aid to Gaza?
TRUMP: I talked to him, yeah, I did. I talked to him about a lot of things. I talked to him about Iran. I think Iran's been very nasty with their words, with their mouth. I think they've been very nasty.
They got the hell knocked out of them. And they -- I don't think they know it. You know, I actually don't think they know. They really do.
It's a -- the whole thing is a con job. We have a lot of con jobs going on, but Iran was -- was beaten up very badly for good reason. We cannot have them have a nuclear weapon, but they still talk about enrichment.
I mean, who would do that? You just come out of something that's so bad and they talk about, "We want to continue enrichment." Who would say that? How stupid can you be to say that?
So, we're not going to allow that to happen. We're not allowing that to happen.
REPORTER: You talked more aid into Gaza?
TRUMP: Will I do more aid? Yeah, U.S. -- the U.S. is going to do more aid for Gaza, but we'd like to have other countries participate. We're going to mention that to the European Union today. You know, that's an international problem. It's not a U.S. problem.
It's an international problem. And we're giving a lot of money and a lot of food and a lot of everything. If we weren't there, I think people would have starved, frankly. They would have starved. And it's not like they're eating well, but a lot of that food is getting stole by -- stolen by Hamas.
You know, they're stealing the food. They're stealing a lot of things. You ship it in and they steal it. Then they sell it.
REPORTER: Why do you said that to Europe is being crushed by mass migration? And I wondered whether your friends on the other side of the room agree with you on that.
TRUMP: Well, I'll let you respond to that if you'd like.
VON DER LEYEN: So, we have been working intensively on the topic of irregular migration, and we have -- from the very beginning said that migration is a European challenge that needs a European answer. As Europeans, we will fulfill our international obligations as we've done in the past, also in the future.
But we as Europeans are the ones who decide who comes to the European Union and under what circumstances, and not the smugglers and traffickers. That's the principle in which we're working.
(INAUDIBLE)
TRUMP: I will say this. You know, they did ask me when I got off the plane -- immigration, Europe has a tremendous problem. We do, too, but we've sealed our borders. Our borders -- we have nobody coming in, and we have hundreds of thousands of people being taken out. And the bad ones first. And I think we're doing a very good job of that.
But we had -- I mean, it literally registered zero people last month. You probably saw that, nobody.
And Europe has a very similar problem. I think they're going to end up in the same place. You might as well go there quicker.
And the other thing I say to Europe, we will not allow a windmill to be built in the United States. They're killing us. They're killing the beauty of our scenery, our valleys, our beautiful plains.
And I'm not talking about airplanes. I'm talking about beautiful plains. Beautiful areas in the United States.
And you look up and you see windmills all over the place. It's a -- it's a horrible thing. It's the most expensive form of energy.
It's no good. They're made in China. Almost all of them.
When they start to rust and rot in eight years, you can't really turn them off. You can't bury them.
They won't let you bury the propellers. You know, the props, because there are certain type of fiber that doesn't go well with the land. That's what they say.
The environmentalists say you can't bury them because the fiber doesn't go well with the land. In other words, if you bury it, it will harm our soil.
The whole thing is a con job. It's very expensive. And in all fairness, Germany tried it and wind doesn't work. It's -- you need subsidy for wind and energy should not need subsidy. With energy, you make money, you don't lose money.
But more important than that is it ruins the landscape. It kills the birds. They're noisy, you know, you have a certain place in the Massachusetts area that over the last 20 years had one or two whales wash ashore.
And over the last short period of time, they had 18. Okay, because it's driving them loco, its driving them crazy.
Now, windmills will not come. It's not going to happen in the United States.
[12:15:00]
And it's very expensive. And I would love to see -- I mean, today I'm playing the best course, I think, in the world, Turnberry. Even though I own it, it's probably the best course in the world, right?
And I look over the horizon and I see nine windmills, like right at the end of the 18th. I said, isn't that a shame? What a shame. You have the same thing all over -- all over Europe in particular. You
have windmills all over the place. Some of the countries prohibit it, but people ought to know these -- these windmills are very destructive. They're environmentally unsound.
Just the exact opposite, because the environmentalists, they're not really environmentalists, they're political hacks. They're -- these are people that -- they almost want to harm the country.
But you look at these beautiful landscapes all over, all over the, you know, the world. Many countries have gotten smart. They will not allow it. They will not.
It's a worst form of energy, the most expensive form of energy but windmills should not be allowed.
Okay.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: -- Cambodia and Thailand, you spoke to the leaders of both countries.
TRUMP: I did.
REPORTER: Are they doing enough --
TRUMP: I hope so. You're talking about Cambodia and Thailand?
So, I had an interesting time. We're dealing with Thailand, and we do a lot of trade with Thailand and with Cambodia. And yet I'm reading that they're killing each other. You know, they're fighting. They're in a war.
And I say this should be an easy one for me because I've settled with India and Pakistan, and Serbia and Kosovo was going at it, you know, but they have for a long time, in all fairness, you know, about that.
And -- and others, the Congo and you know, what's going on there. That's been a horrible thing with Rwanda. That's been a horrible thing, 31 years, 7 million, 8 million people killed, machetes -- machetes all over the place, it's a terrible thing.
We got that one solved. We did five of them. And I was saying, you know, we have a trade deal. We were working on another, we finalized another trade deal yesterday.
And I asked my people, I said, how are we doing with Cambodia and how are we doing with Thailand? And they say they're going to be coming in at some point to talk. I said, well, let's call them right now.
So, I called the prime ministers of each, and I said, we're not going to make a trade deal unless you settle the war. A lot of people are killed. You know that in a short period of time, the border, they're fighting pretty like wild. And I spoke to both of the prime ministers. And I think by the time I
got off, I think they want to settle now. I know they're meeting today or tomorrow, and we're going to work with them. Marco Rubio is working with them also, his people and him.
I think we're going to get that. It would be a great thing, but it's going to -- that would have turned out to be a bad one. And I will tell you, India and Pakistan, they were really getting ready to go at it.
So, getting those things settled, if I could do it, and if I can use trade to do that, it's, you know, it's my honor. But I had great talks with two very good people that I -- they both really would like to make a deal. So, we'll see what happens.
Okay. How about one more, two more?
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: Europe is spending a lot more on defense thanks to you.
TRUMP: They are.
REPORTER: Should they get a fairer deal on trade in exchange?
TRUMP: Well, they're spending a lot on defense. But we're spending a lot more, and you know, and we've been very generous to NATO for many, many years. And no, but we had a terrific meeting with NATO. I'd love to do as well.
We had a meeting where they put up 5 percent instead of 2 percent, and they're going to pay it instead of not paying because, as you know, many people didn't pay the 2 percent or anywhere near it. And the 2 percent was too low.
And we're going to be sending now military equipment and other equipment to NATO, and they'll be doing what they want. But I guess for the most part, working with Ukraine.
But we -- we had a fantastic meeting. I guess it's now almost four weeks ago, one of the best meetings I've ever had at NATO. And the spirit and the coming together was incredible.
And I stood and I listened to almost 30 speeches. That was a lot. And I was really late, and I had to leave, but I didn't want to leave before those last ten spoke, because they'd go home and they'd tell their wife, Trump left, and they were so nice to the United States. They were all mentioning the United States and me, but they were mentioning the United States.
To be here, it's such an honor, you know, et cetera. And I thought it would have been inappropriate, but I did stay. It was very hard because I was extremely late for something else that was, you know, pretty important.
And we had a tremendous NATO meeting. I'm sure you heard that, too. VON DER LEYEN: Yeah.
TRUMP: It was great. There's some great people that you deal with on two fronts, right? But you deal with on primarily the trade front.
[12:20:01]
But I will tell you, they came together, and the relationship is really good. That was a great -- it's an interesting question because you probably have reported it that way. It really -- we came together and they went from 2 percent to 5 percent, which nobody would have thought that was even -- who would even think that? Because they didn't want to be a 2 percent. All of a sudden, they're a 5 percent.
And that's -- that's the right number. And so, it was a -- it was a great honor. I got to know the heads of those countries really very well at that meeting almost a month ago. Okay?
Thank you very much, everybody. We'll let you know what's happening.
(CROSSTALK)
REPORTER: -- Irish golf course anytime soon in Doonbeg.
TRUMP: I will, I love Doonbeg, I'll go -- not in this trip, but I'll go soon.
Okay? Thank you very much. Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Jake Tapper in Washington, with STATE OF THE UNION.
And you were just listening to President Trump live, speaking with European Commissioner -- European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen live from Scotland.
We're days away from the president's self-imposed tariff deadline. You heard the leaders there talking about the big financial stakes involved here. This could be the biggest deal -- trade deal ever.
President Trump saying earlier today that he feels there's a 50/50 chance that they will be able to strike a deal, the United States and the European Union this week. He also reiterated that the tariff rate will not go below 15 percent. Either way.
The president also making some interesting comments on Gaza and the growing devastation there. The starvation crisis, saying the United States will continue to give more aid to Gaza. He added that it would be nice to get a thank you and that other countries should pitch in as well.
CNN's chief national affairs correspondent, Jeff Zeleny, is in Scotland with the president.
Jeff, what did you think were the big headlines.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, I mean, the point of the meeting here, obviously, several other questions led the president down a few different alleyways here. But the point of the meeting is the deadline is fast approaching for a trade deal with the European Union. That is why Ursula von der Leyen is at the Turnberry golf resort. So, I thought her comments at the very beginning of this was certainly interesting, trying to flatter the president in some regards, saying that you're known as a tough negotiator and dealmaker, and he jumped in and said, and a fair one.
So, we will see what comes out of this meeting. If there is not a deal that is struck, a 30 percent across the board tariff is set to go into effect on Friday. Of course, we have seen tariffs come and go, threats come and go. So, we will see about that.
But he did say that 15 percent is as low as they would go. And also said pharmaceuticals are not going to be a part of this. That is very important here because pharmaceuticals from the European nations are one of the leading imports into the U.S. So that certainly is important as they strike this deal.
But on Gaza, absolutely, that is hanging over this meeting and certainly will be hanging over the presidents meeting tomorrow with British Prime Minister Keir Starmer on Israel, saying specifically, Israel is going to have to make a decision here.
So those are some of the headlines here. As the president has been spending a couple of days now in Scotland, largely golfing, just coming off the golf course to have this meeting here today. But this is one of the biggest trade deals and their relationship certainly has not been that warm going into this meeting. It certainly looked fairly friendly today. We'll see what comes out of this meeting this afternoon, Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.
I'm joined now by Xochitl Hinojosa, a Democratic commentator, and Shermichael Singleton, a Republican commentator.
Xochitl, let's start with what President Trump had to say about this starvation crisis in Gaza, which the U.N. is calling a manmade catastrophe. The president was asked if Israel was doing enough to let food aid in. President Trump said it would be nice to get a thank you for the $60 million in aid that the U.S. has already provided to Gaza.
Let's roll that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We gave $60 million two weeks ago for food for Gaza and nobody acknowledged it. Nobody talks about it, and it makes you feel a little bad when you do that. And you know, you have other countries not giving anything. None of the European countries, by the way, gave -- I mean, nobody gave but us and nobody said, gee, thank you very much. And it would be nice to have at least a thank you. (END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Xochitl, what was your reaction to that?
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, my reaction was that he is -- he won't criticize Israel in any way. He won't say that they aren't doing enough. And frankly, the fact that he's saying that he wants to thank you is sort of laughable.
I mean, the reality here, Jake, is that President Trump promised that we would be out of the situation in Gaza and also in Ukraine, and he has yet to solve both problems. And they are looming over his presidency right now.
[12:25:02]
And he hasn't been able to solve these conflicts. And the U.S. should be there to provide support and does not -- they do not need to thank you. And honestly, I think that the real "thank you" would come if he were to solve this issue.
So, I think this continues to be a problem with the president. And he wants credit where credit is due. It is the role of the United States to help around the country. And the reality is, is that he still does not have a solution to this, just like he has not had a solution when it comes to tariffs around the world.
TAPPER: Shermichael, what do you think.
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The president has signaled that he's attempting to facilitate some type of a peace deal between Israel and Hamas. That's a lot greater in terms of the next steps than what we saw over the last four years. The president also talked about how the United States is sending munitions to our European allies. And obviously, those European allies have stated that they will utilize those munitions in support of Ukraine so that Ukraine can defend itself, hopefully. Also, Ukraine can maintain its posture to attack Russia strategically if it needs to.
And so , I think the ball is moving forward, albeit slowly, Jake, in the right direction.
TAPPER: He also said that the odds are 50/50 of his -- the prospects of a trade deal between the United States and the Europeans.
Shermichael, what are you watching in these negotiations?
SINGLETON: I really want to see if the president can figure out a way to have a baseline percent with our European allies across the board. And I think if you can get there, you will signal to the Fed chair that it's time to likely cut rates in September. The Fed chair has spoken about this numerous times, that he's just waiting for some level of stability.
So even if it's 5 percent, 10 percent, or I think the president said nothing lower than 15 percent, that's not really the question as it pertains to the United States economic predictability models. It's -- is it something that's going to be stagnant, at least for the remaining two quarters? If that is indeed the case, then the Fed, I presume, will lower rates. Thats good across the board for the economy, and I think it's good for the American consumer who has seen those higher interest rates impact their bottom line.
TAPPER: Xochitl, Democrats have been trying to attack President Trump on trade, on the tariffs, on the economy. Do you think it's been effective at all?
HINOJOSA: Well, I do think it is because the president promised to bring down costs for Americans, and that's why he won the election. Democrats didn't do a good job of communicating with the American people on how they would help them. And the reality is, is that prices are going up. I actually agree with Shermichael that what the president and the White House should be signaling with this deal is stability.
The reality is, though, is that the president hasn't shown stability when it comes to these tariffs. He's been all over the place. It's a kneejerk reaction from him which has caused instability in our economy. And therefore, and you've seen the Fed not act with interest rates.
And so, the ball is in Donald Trump's court. This is a very important week for him. Because if he does not act by August 1st, you will see price increases for Americans, not only in the short term, short term, but the long term.
TAPPER: All right. Xochitl and Shermichael, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.
Coming up next, President Trump miles away. But top members of his party are facing some questions back home about domestic politics, including why he will not release the Epstein files. I'm going to talk to a close Trump ally, Senator Markwayne Mullin, coming up next and what he thinks should happen. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:32:54]
TAPPER: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.
Even though President Trump is thousands of miles away in Scotland, he is still facing questions about the crisis that he and his administration largely set in motion that has outraged many of his supporters at home. Demands by his base to see the full, complete release of the files of disgraced pedophile and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein as he and his attorney general had previously pledged to do.
Overnight, President Trump tried to throw out another wild threat that seemed designed to distract, saying that former Vice President Kamala Harris, Oprah Winfrey and Beyonce should all be prosecuted over 2024 campaign events. But as Republican lawmakers head home for summer break, bracing
themselves for demands for their constituents to see the files, it's not clear that this strategy of distraction will quell those concerns.
Joining us now is a close ally of President Trump, Senator Markwayne Mullin from the great state of Oklahoma.
Senator, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
Something you said on the Senate floor a couple days ago...
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Thanks for having me on, Jake.
TAPPER: Something you said on the Senate floor a couple days ago gained a lot of attention. You were arguing against a push by Democrats who are calling to release the Epstein files in full.
Let's play what you said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MULLIN: I'm sure this would be handled just like any other thing that they have tried to go after, like the baseless impeachments or the unbelievable amount of charges they have tried to file against the president. I'm sure this would be handled the exact same way.
What we're simply wanting to do here is give them cover.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Can you explain what you meant when you talked about giving cover there?
MULLIN: Well, Jake, what you're doing is, you're taking a 30-second clip from a -- about a six-minute debate.
And, by the way, we also put forth a resolution to allow the judges to release the information from these grand juries. So, this is political theater. If you listen to the whole debate, you would -- you would clearly understand what we had been talking about was Pam Bondi and the president and Congress wants transparency. We want them to release the files.
[12:35:00]
However, we can't make them release it because of separation of power. The judges, the judicial branch, have the files and they have the documents. Every document that Pam Bondi has, every document that the Kash Patel has, they have been heard by a grand jury.
We saw the judge in Florida say, no, she's not releasing it. We're waiting on the judges in New York to say, are you going to release it or do you not? We all want transparency. And what's funny about this is the Democrats want it, too.
But when I put forth my resolution calling on them to do the same thing, which is what I was meaning by that term, is that we're trying to agree with Pam Bondi and with President Trump that we want transparency. We want the files released.
But when I put my resolution forth, guess what? The Democrats also denied -- or denied the request. So it's interesting to me, though, Jake, that, for the last four years underneath President Biden, not one Democrat asked for the files to be released. Now they're all about transparency.
But yet President Trump is the most transparent president we have had.
I mean, look, you wrote the book literally on the biggest cover-up from the Biden administration, the cover-up that the previous administration covered completely for President Biden the whole time he was in office.
So transparency is what we're all about. But the Democrats are trying to distract from their awful record and from the questions they need to ask, like who was signing the executive order since it was an autopen?
TAPPER: Right.
MULLIN: Who was actually choosing -- or choosing to continue to run the Russiagate, when we know it was a huge hoax? Who was making the decisions at the White House?
TAPPER: So...
MULLIN: And they can't answer that. So they're deciding to run a distraction by this Epstein file, when it's a big hoax and the American people know it, because they never said a word about it when Biden was in office.
TAPPER: But let's just take a step back here. The reason that we're here where we are is because, for years, President Trump and the MAGA base and Trump's allies have been calling for the release of the Epstein files.
And then, after taking office, take a listen to what Attorney General Pam Bondi has been saying over the course of the past few months. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: What you're going to see hopefully tomorrow is a lot of flight logs, a lot of names. Everything's going to come out to the public.
The public has a right to know. Americans have a right to know.
There are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Now the administration is saying they can't release this information.
Now, I understand you're talking about a resolution --
MULLIN: Well --
TAPPER: -- you offered calling for the grand jury to release transcripts from the grand jury investigation into Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, and a judge said no.
But there's troves of information that the administration could release tomorrow if they wanted to, and they have been promising to, and they haven't.
MULLIN: Well, Jake, that's not -- that's not true. You know -- you know better than that too, because you know every piece of file that they have, every video, every document, every flight log has all been heard by a grand jury. They have all been seen by a grand jury.
And we want the judges to release it. Pam Bondi has called on the judges to release it. Trump has called on them to release it. And the Congress has called on them to release it. But we can't because there's a true co-equal branches of government, so we can't force the judicial branch to do anything.
All we can do is ask them to do it. We assumed that the judges would release it. Pam Bondi released it.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: But I'm not talking about the stuff -- I'm not talking about the grand jury stuff.
I'm talking about...
MULLIN: No, there isn't -- Jake, there isn't one piece of document that Kash Patel at the FBI or Pam Bondi in her office has that a grand jury hasn't seen.
So, everything that they have would have to be released by the judges.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: She was talking about releasing this information. She was talking about releasing this information. She could release it tomorrow. She doesn't.
MULLIN: She was, but she can't -- no. She can't release it until the judge has released it, because if it's been heard by a grand jury -- and, Jake, you know this -- if it's been heard by a grand jury, regardless if Pam Bondi has it or the FBI has it, the judge that overseeing the case that the grand jury listened to and saw the documentation and the evidence has to be released by the judge.
And you know that.
TAPPER: I don't think that that's correct. I think that the FBI and the Southern District of New York and the Southern District of Florida...
MULLIN: How is it not correct?
TAPPER: Because -- just because something has been shown before a grand jury, that doesn't mean it is only going to be -- it can only be released to the public by a judge.
If the FBI has it, they can release it.
MULLIN: Then why did -- then why did the judge refuse to release the records in Florida? Because once it's been heard in the case, it is a sealed case. It is sealed by the grand jury. You have been through this. That's why we're even debating this.
(CROSSTALK)
MULLIN: Because if it is considered evidence in a case, then it is sealed.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: The information that has been released...
(CROSSTALK)
MULLIN: Bring a separate judge on and ask them the same question.
TAPPER: Grand jury hearings and transcripts, the judge has control over, absolutely. That doesn't mean that everything that went into the grand jury is therefore locked from the public.
[12:40:06]
That's -- it does not work that way. And that's why Attorney General Bondi was saying...
MULLIN: If the case is sealed...
TAPPER: Well, then tell me why for months she was saying that she's going to release the information tomorrow.
MULLIN: We made the assumption that the judges were going to release the order and allow the evidence that they had that it could be heard. If it's -- but it's all been sealed. And so if it's been a sealed case, we can't release it until the judges allow us to release it.
And you would think common sense would play. That's why they asked for transparency. We want transparency. We want the judges to have transparency in this too.
But remember there was a plea deal that was struck in 2009, way before I was in office, way before Trump was even considering it to be in office, way before Pam Bondi was office, way before Kash Patel was director. 2009, there was a sweetheart plea deal that was made underneath the Obama administration with Epstein...
TAPPER: No, that's not right. That's not...
MULLIN: And that sweetheart has not been exposed.
It's not?
TAPPER: No, it was 2000...
MULLIN: Well, when was the case heard?
TAPPER: It was 2008. It was -- the U.S. attorney at the time was a guy named Alex Acosta. He was a Bush appointee. He went on to become President Trump's secretary of labor. It all took place in 2008.
MULLIN: Who was in office at the time?
TAPPER: 2008, George W. Bush was in...
MULLIN: Who was in office at the time?
TAPPER: George W. Bush.
MULLIN: No, 2009 is when the case came out, and it was -- and Obama was in office at the time.
TAPPER: It's not true. It's not true.
But let me ask you a question. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche met this week, with Epstein's accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is serving 20 years in prison for sex trafficking. After the meeting, Maxwell's attorney indicated to reporters that he hopes President Trump will give her a pardon.
What do you think of that idea? Will it be a mistake for President Trump to pardon Maxwell? And do you think that she's credible?
MULLIN: I don't know enough about Maxwell or the -- or the conversation to even weigh in on that.
But I will go back to what you're saying about it wasn't true. The case was sealed in 2009. That's absolutely true. It was heard in 2008. It was sealed in 2009.
TAPPER: The point is that the sweetheart deal, which was completed in 2008, was under the Bush administration, U.S. attorney Alex Acosta. That's why Alex Acosta resigned in the first Bush administration, because "The Miami Herald" had written this story in 2018 about how Epstein got away with so much.
And then, in 2019, the U.S. attorney under President Trump, Geoff Berman in the Southern District of New York, then brought charges against him.
So, I mean, there is stuff to say that you could point to that say, like, President Trump did this or President Trump did that.
MULLIN: And, remember, in 2019, that President Trump and his administration called for it to be unsealed at that time, too. It went silent, and not a word was said during the Biden administration, not a word. Nothing was said during the Biden administration.
TAPPER: OK. People can look it up. The sweetheart deal was 2008 during the George W. Bush administration.
But I always appreciate you're coming on the show, Senator Mullin. Thanks for joining us.
MULLIN: Yeah.
TAPPER: Have Democrats found their most effective new attack on President Trump? Well, it depends on who you ask. Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:47:39]
TAPPER: Lawmakers are getting out of town, which means hearing directly from their constituents, as both sides face problems with their own base.
Joining us now, Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona.
So, you, Senator, are out holding towns with voters -- town halls with voters, not only in Arizona. Interestingly, you held one in Warren, Michigan, Friday night.
A new poll from "The Wall Street Journal" shows that your party, the Democrats, are at your lowest approval rating in 35 years; 63 percent of those polled, voters, say they held an unfavorable view of the Democratic Party.
So what are you hearing from voters and why do you think your party's struggling?
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Well, first of all, Jake, thank you for having me on.
And we have to fix this. I don't put a ton of stock into polls, especially this far away from an election, but we certainly do have a problem. And it's a messaging problem. And it's important to get out there and talk to people about the issues that they care about.
So I was outside of Detroit there in Warren talking to folks who don't get to hear from their member of Congress, a guy named John James. He doesn't explain to them what happened in this big bill that the president and House and Senate Republicans passed. And it's really a bad deal for the American people.
So, myself and my wife, Gabby, sat there in front of a large group and took some questions from them and tried to explain to them, what's going to happen to Medicaid? What's going to happen to food assistance through SNAP? And there were folks here that -- I got the sense that these programs directly are going to affect them and their family members.
And they do deserve an explanation from somebody in the United States Congress. And if their representative isn't going to do it, I'm going to go there. And, hopefully, in time, the American people will understand that we are out there fighting for them.
TAPPER: So you talk about how the Democratic Party has a communications problem. Your party, the Democratic Party, posted on Twitter or X in the last few days a chart that showed the price of groceries skyrocketing.
The White House took that Democratic chart and accurately reposted it to show that most of the price jumps in that graph happened under the Biden administration. The Democrats then deleted the post.
[12:50:02]
So I wonder if you think Democrats have figured out their problems both in terms of communications and also acknowledging that Biden era inflation, for example, is one of the reasons why your party is out of power.
KELLY: Yes, I think that's fair.
There was inflation during the Biden administration. I track this pretty closely. You know, I know what ground beef and eggs and milk costs at the Safeway where Gabby and I shop in Tucson, Arizona. They went up during the Biden administration. They went up some more. You know, you're going to see prices go up and down.
But I think what's important for the American people to know is that Donald Trump's tariff policy is very likely to increase costs. Going to take some time because of supply chains, stuff coming from -- in some cases from all over the planet. And his trade policy for my constituents in Arizona, there are a lot of products that come across the southern border, agricultural products that create thousands and thousands of jobs, not only in Arizona, but in the state of Texas.
And we are facing right now some significant job loss. So, when you think inflation is a problem for a family, somebody losing a job is even a bigger problem. And we're trying to figure out how we navigate that with this administration.
They -- you know, I have spoken to the secretary of commerce about some of these tariffs, and we haven't gotten the response that we need.
TAPPER: Let me ask you about a big international issue, the starvation crisis in Gaza, a manmade crisis.
Overnight, the government of Israel said they will begin to open additional humanitarian corridors for the purpose of getting additional aid into Gaza. We have obviously been seeing these horrific images of Palestinian children starving and suffering from malnutrition. I know you've been in close contact with Cindy McCain, the head of the U.N. World Food Program, who obviously is from Arizona. What is Cindy McCain telling you about the situation in Gaza? And are you satisfied with the latest news from Israel? And what do you think the United States should be doing?
KELLY: Yes, well, I talk to or text with Cindy, who is the head of the World Food Program, you know, weekly. Even just this morning, I was sharing some information with her that we received from the Israeli Embassy in Washington about what they plan to do.
So I'm trying to help with the communication here. She's under a tremendous amount -- her organization, a tremendous amount of stress, and, you know, just kind of dislocation of the resources that she had. The rescissions package that you mentioned with Russ Vought cut money for UNICEF. The DOGE cuts cut somewhere around 40 percent of Cindy McCain's budget at the World Food Program.
So, weekly, she's trying to figure out, where does she put resources to keep children alive? It is a horrible situation. And we should never see this kind of starvation across the planet for anybody. But to see it from -- see kids starving -- I have seen this personally in the DRC when I would travel there with Gabby about a decade ago.
It is a horrific thing to see, and we have to do better. Her challenge is, she often can't get the aid into Gaza. Now, the Israeli government says they're going to have this, like, temporary cease-fire to try to move more aid in.
Aid needs to be continuous. It can't be just a one- time thing. They're going to drop some aid from airplanes, but we need to have a continuous supply of food into Gaza, or these children are going to starve to death.
TAPPER: "Reuters" is reporting that 20 percent of employees at NASA, around 4,000 individuals, are set to depart the agency through the Trump administration's deferred resignation program.
You are, if people don't know, a retired astronaut. What goes through your mind when you hear that?
KELLY: Well, some of the best people that NASA has -- and NASA is tasked with doing some really hard things that benefit our country, our national security, our economy, that really grows our economy, great-paying jobs.
We built industries through the investment in science, including with NASA. And the president is undercutting his own programs. In 2017, he started a program to take American astronauts back to the moon, to put them there permanently, to grow an economy on the surface of the moon.
And now his own budget undercuts those efforts. I was with Sean Duffy, who's going to be the temporary NASA administrator, just last week, and we talked about, like, where should NASA be going, and how do you actually achieve the goals that this president set in his first administration? He's got an opportunity here. You know, he can fund these programs. They can be successful. He can claim and take a victory lap maybe at the end of his administration, or he could let NASA, you know, just kind of die, along with other science that only the United States has been able to do.
[12:55:12]
You know, some other nation isn't going to pick up the kind of scientific research that we do at places like the Jet Propulsion Laboratory or the NIH and universities. So I'm really disappointed to see these cuts. I've got a friend of mine, by the way, a guy I flew in space with, my -- one of my crew members from my last mission in 2011.
He's going to launch in space Thursday. So I'm hoping to be down there to see him make one final trip into space. And it's one of the things I think that really makes our country great.
TAPPER: I'm going to give you a yes-or-no question here, Senator, because we're completely out of time, OK? I know it's challenging for a senator.
KELLY: OK.
TAPPER: Is it fair to say you're -- you did a town hall in Michigan and you're coming to us from Pennsylvania, both of them key battleground states. Yes or no, are you considering running for president in 2028?
KELLY: That is a good question. I know you want a yes-or-no answer. I'm trying to do -- and I'm not going to give you a yes-or-no one.
TAPPER: Oh.
KELLY: Because I'm just trying to do this job, get the word out to the American people.
And I'm trying to improve the polling that you talked about and just listen to voters wherever they are about, what are the problems they're dealing with and how do we fix them?
TAPPER: OK, well, I will just observe that if anybody asked me that, I'd say, no, I'm not running for president.
Anyway, Senator Kelly, good to see you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Next, we'll show you why the new campaign trend may be pumping iron.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FMR. REP. COLIN ALLRED (D-TX): Hey, everybody. I just finished my workout. I hope you got your workout in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: The biggest new trend on the campaign trail is candidates getting big muscles.
Democratic candidates from Colin Allred in Texas to Army veteran Cait Conley in New York are flexing their strength on social media, literally, perhaps a counterpoint to the powerlessness that national Democrats feel here in D.C.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: Hey, everybody. I just finished my workout. I hope you got your workout in. So, I guess we got to talk about Jeffrey Epstein.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I guess we'll see if this new strategy gives their campaigns a lift.
Thanks for spending your Sunday morning with us.
"FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" starts next.
