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State of the Union

Interview With Rep. Becca Balint (D-VT); Interview With Centers For Medicare and Medicaid Services Administrator Dr. Mehmet Oz; Interview With Former Chicago, Illinois, Mayor Rahm Emanuel; Interview With Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA). Aired 9-10a ET

Aired November 16, 2025 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:50]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Pressure. A MAGA breakup, as President Trump turns on a close ally.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Something happened to her, and I'm no longer much of a fan.

BASH: What's really going on here? Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene joins me exclusively next.

Plus: health care hurdles. Republicans may have won the battle.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The Democrat shutdown is finally over.

BASH: But with health care premiums set to skyrocket...

TRUMP: Obamacare is a disaster.

BASH: ... can they win the war over health care? I will ask CMS Administrator Dr. Mehmet Oz ahead.

And blame game. Days after big election wins, Democrats are back to pointing fingers.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): You are right to be angry.

BASH: Can they harness that anger ahead of the midterms? Potential 2028 hopeful Rahm Emanuel joins me, and our political panel breaks it all down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is burning bridges.

It's the political breakup heard round the world, President Trump severing ties with his -- at least one of his closest allies, declaring, "I am withdrawing my support and endorsement of Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene," even calling for primary challenges against his one-time loyalist and attacking her as -- quote -- "wacky, a ranting lunatic, a RINO, and a traitor."

This is days before the House of Representatives is set to vote on releasing the Epstein case. It's a stunning breach between two MAGA leaders, one of whom is here with me now, exclusively for her first interview since the president cut ties.

Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, thank you so much for being here.

As you just heard and I know you saw, the president says he's withdrawing support for you, encouraging primary challengers. You were one of his biggest supporters. What do you think happened here?

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Well, Dana, thank you for having me on.

And that is true. I stood with President Trump when virtually no one else did, Campaigned all over the country, spent millions of my own dollars helping him get elected. And I think that's incredibly important. And I do support him and his administration, and I support them in delivering the campaign promises we made to the American people.

His remarks, of course, have been hurtful. However, I have something in my heart that I think is incredibly important for our country, and that is to end the toxic fighting in politics. And this has been going on for years, and it has divided our country, split up friends and families, neighbors, and it's not solving our problems.

The most hurtful thing he said, which is absolutely untrue, is, he called me a traitor. And that is so extremely wrong, and those are the types of words used that can radicalize people against me and put my life in danger.

BASH: What do you think happened? What do you think is the reason for this?

GREENE: Unfortunately, it has all come down to the Epstein files, and that is shocking.

And I stand with these women. I stand with rape victims. I stand with children who are in terrible sex abuse situations, and I stand with survivors of trafficking and those that are trapped in sex trafficking. And I will not apologize for that. I believe the country deserves transparency on these files.

And I don't believe that rich, powerful people should be protected if they have done anything wrong. And so I'm standing with the women, and I will continue to do my small part to get the files released.

BASH: You said on X yesterday -- quote -- "It's astonishing really" how hard he's fighting to stop the Epstein files from coming out and that it really makes you wonder what is in those files. Are you suggesting there's something in the Epstein files that President Trump does not want Americans to see?

[09:05:07]

GREENE: Well, I think that's the part that has so many people confused, is that the women themselves that I have talked to have over and over again said that Donald Trump did nothing wrong.

Quite a few of them even told me they voted for him. And those are the women I would like to see in the Oval Office with support. I would like to see all of the women there with support.

I have no idea what's in the files. I can't even guess. But that is the questions everyone is asking, is, why fight this so hard?

BASH: Well, before this blowup, you -- and you sort of alluded to this just now -- you said you were confident the president wouldn't be implicated.

Are you still confident of that?

GREENE: I'm listening to the women. Those are the ones that are saying that he did nothing wrong. Virginia Giuffre even said under oath that Donald Trump did nothing wrong. And she wrote it in her book. So I'm continuing to -- listening to the women. And I think their voices should be the loudest.

BASH: The president said the reason that you have been critical of him is not necessarily Epstein, but because he pushed you not to run for the Senate or for governor in Georgia. How and when did he do that?

GREENE: Well, that is absolutely not true.

Actually, I never had a conversation at all with the president about running for Senate or running for Georgia. And those were decisions I came to on my own that I -- I don't want to have anything to do with the Senate. I think the past two months of the government shutdown should have shown America exactly why I would never want to be there.

I think it's a very broken institution that serves the uniparty and doesn't serve the American people and how they vote. And I decided that I didn't want to run for governor this cycle either. I very much want to do the job that I'm in.

Everyone else says I'm running for something, but all I want to do is serve Georgia's 14th District. And I'm very grateful for that opportunity.

BASH: So he said it pretty explicitly. Are you saying he's lying? Or did he at least get that message to somebody on your political team instead?

GREENE: I'm not sure, but I don't -- he -- that is untrue, what he said. I don't know if he's being fed wrong information. I honestly have no idea in that area, but it is absolutely factually not true, nor have I called him. And White House logs would prove that. His own cell phone records would prove it.

I have not been calling the president, but I did post messages that I had sent to him. And that was to, like, protect -- get involved. This is important. The American people want the Epstein files released. And I have stood with the president.

I have disagreed with him at times, Dana. And I'm allowed to do that. I think that's the most important thing we can do as Americans. And I'm urging my party, I have been putting massive pressure on my party and our speaker to pass the agenda that the American people vote for.

That's the agenda that I fought for. Those are the campaign promises I made. And I can disagree with the president at times, especially particularly this past Monday on the Marines' 250th anniversary,when he honored the new Syrian president, who is an al Qaeda terrorist and was wanted by our government for years with a $10 million bounty up until March of this year.

I very much am against that. I think that was very hurtful to the great men and women who served over in the Middle East and were sent there and many of them that were killed and injured and live with PTSD to this day from fighting al Qaeda.

So there's things I disagree with, and I am allowed to do so.

BASH: Well, you mentioned the Syrian leader at the White House. You have also been critical of President Trump over foreign entanglements, H-1B visas. Now he's moving military assets towards Venezuela.

I do want to play something that he said this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Don't forget, MAGA was my idea. MAGA was nobody else's idea. I know what MAGA wants better than anybody else, and MAGA wants to see our country thrive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Do you agree? Do you think he represents the MAGA movement as he once did?

GREENE: Well, what the American people voted for with MAGA was to put the American people first and stop sending foreign aid and stop being involved in foreign wars. They very much deserve to be put first. Cost of living is far too high. Health insurance is completely out of control.

And that's those are two issues I've been very vocal on for months and months now, long before Republicans were shocked when those big losses came on this past Tuesday's election.

[09:10:02] So I think that the American people deserve to be put first. That's

what make America great again meant to me. And I think that President Trump can do that if he refocuses his effort. And I think that's what I want to see. I think that's what the country wants to see. Even if he's attacking me, I do want him to be successful for the American people.

BASH: So you're -- it sounds like you're saying that he is not representing the MAGA movement that he started right now.

GREENE: I can say that promoting H-1B visas to replace American jobs, bringing in 600,000 Chinese students to replace American students' opportunities in American colleges and universities, those are not America first positions.

And continuing to really travel all over the world doesn't help Americans back at home. I really -- and I said this to him and I will say it out loud. I would love to see Air Force One be parked and stay home and there be nothing but a constant focus in the White House on a domestic agenda that helps the American people once and for all.

BASH: Congresswoman, you posted on X that President Trump is, with his comments, fueling a -- quote -- "hotbed of threats" against you.

Obviously, any threats to your safety are completely unacceptable. But we have seen these kinds of attacks or criticism from the President at other people. It's not new. And, with respect, I haven't heard you speak out about it until it was directed at you. .

GREENE: Dana, I think that's fair criticism.

And I would like to say humbly I'm sorry for taking part in the toxic politics. It's very bad for our country. And I -- it's been something I've thought about a lot, especially since Charlie Kirk was assassinated, is that we, -- I'm only responsible for myself and my own words and actions.

And I am going -- I am committed -- and I've been working on this a lot lately -- to put down the knives in politics. I really just want to see people be kind to one another. And we need to figure out a new path forward that is focused on the American people, because, as Americans, no matter what side of the aisle we're on, we have far more in common than we have differences.

BASH: Yes.

GREENE: And we need to be able to respect each other with our disagreements.

BASH: So, just to put a button on this, you regret the things that you have said and posted in the past, the Facebook post that was taken down of you in 2020 holding a gun alongside the Squad, encouraging people to go on the offense against the socialists, liking a tweet of somebody calling for the execution of Nancy Pelosi and former President Obama, just examples?

GREENE: Well, Dana, as you know and many people know, I addressed that back in 2021.

And, of course, I never want to cause any harm or anything bad for anyone. So that was addressed back then.

BASH: OK.

GREENE: And I very much stand by my words I said then.

And I stand by my words today. I think America needs to come together and end all the toxic, dangerous rhetoric and divide. And I'm leading the way with my own example, and I hope that President Trump can do the same.

BASH: OK, so, on that, I do want to ask you about something you posted just yesterday on X.

You questioned who and what country is putting so much pressure on Trump to keep the Epstein files hidden. And you included a picture about donations from pro-Israel lobbying group at AIPAC.

What are you trying to say there?

GREENE: Well, I think it's the question that many Americans are asking, especially when we saw information recently come out in these e-mails that the Oversight Committee that I serve on has released.

And we saw Jeffrey Epstein with ties to Ehud Barak. We saw him making business deals with them, also business deals that involved the Israeli government, and seems to have led into their intel agencies. And I think the right question is to ask is, was Jeffrey Epstein working for Israel?

And I'm proud to say I don't take money from AIPAC. I don't take money from any special group of people. I'm just representing my district and the American people. And so that's what I was referring to.

BASH: I just want to be clear. Are you saying Israel is pushing the president of the United States to cover up the Epstein files? And what evidence do you have that that is the case?

GREENE: No, I simply -- no, I simply asked. No, I simply just asked out loud, is there a foreign government? It could be any foreign government.

[09:15:07]

But is a foreign government pushing to keep this covered up? Because people just don't understand the big fight against what is in these files?

BASH: Well, you had AIPAC up there. It was pretty clear which government you were talking about.

GREENE: That -- I'm questioning that government in particular and questioning any other foreign government. BASH: OK, when you're talking about lowering the rhetoric, which is

important for everybody to hear from you and all of our elected officials, but there is some concern, a lot of concern, among Republicans about the rise of antisemitic hard right figures in your movement, especially after Tucker Carlson hosted white nationalist Nick Fuentes on his podcast, didn't question Fuentes about his vile language or views.

You did speak at a conference hosted by Fuentes back in 2022. You were criticized and you said then that you didn't know about his views. Well, Fuentes talked to Carlson about that in the interview. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICK FUENTES, WHITE NATIONALIST ACTIVIST: Well, again, with Marjorie, I was a friend of hers.

TUCKER CARLSON, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Yes.

FUENTES: And she spoke at my conference, and then the day after she pretended like she didn't know me. She pretended like she didn't know me and lied and said, I had no idea the conference I was speaking at. She knew exactly what it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: What did you say to that?

GREENE: Well, first of all, I defend every single person's free speech rights. I think that's incredibly important, so I don't apologize for that, and I don't believe in canceling people.

And I think it's important for people like Tucker Carlson and yourself to interview everyone. I don't believe in trying to cancel someone by refusing to interview them and question them.

And I did speak at his conference back in 2022. However, I don't know Nick Fuentes. He's someone I have never exchanged text messages with or phone calls, but I did speak at his conference. That was the first time I had met him that day, and that was it.

BASH: So...

GREENE: But I did watch the interview. I watched the full interview with Tucker, and I admire him for interviewing many people, as well as exposing a lot of powerful information that he does on his show.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I hear what you're saying about free speech. I mean, count me as guilty as a proponent of free speech. There's free speech, and then there is hate speech.

And this is a man invited on a really prominent conservative show who said even during that interview he had a problem with -- quote -- "organized Jewry," and he wasn't challenged on it. In the past, he has denied the Holocaust, called Adolf Hitler effing cool, talked about the fact that he thought Jim Crow was just fine and on and on.

So, again, there is there's free speech, and then there's just hateful language and sentiments.

GREENE: Well, Dana, again, I told you on this interview that I'm committed to ending the toxic politics. And I think I don't want to have anything to do with it.

You should have Nick Fuentes on your show. And you could ask him questions about that. I myself am not antisemitic. I have never criticized the Jewish people or said anything about them in particular. I am critical of their -- the government of Israel.

And I can criticize any government I want to in the entire world, as well as our own. And a lot of the times, I'm criticizing our own government for failing the American people. And I think that needs to be the focus. And that's the most important thing people care about is being able to afford groceries, housing, health insurance, and having a good quality of life.

BASH: Yes, and I hear you saying you're not antisemitic, and you have said it before. And some of the posts that you have put up which you have apologized for certainly have tropes in them that have been used historically against Jews.

But I do want to end this -- the conversation with a question to you. And that is, do you see a situation where you and President Trump can make up? And, if not, do you think you have a future in the GOP?

GREENE: Well, I certainly hope that we can make up. And there's -- again, I can only speak for myself. I'm a Christian. And one of the most important parts of our faith is forgiveness.

And that's something I'm committed to. That's why I can easily come on your show that is watched all over the world and I can say things I'm sorry for, and I can try to set an example of how I think we should move forward as Americans.

And so, of course, on my end, I believe in that. And I certainly hope to see that happen.

[09:20:00]

BASH: Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, I appreciate you coming on this morning. Thank you so much.

GREENE: Thank you, Dana.

BASH: And my next guest says he fully believes President Trump has a plan to replace Obamacare, so what is it? Dr. Oz will be here next.

Plus: Will Democratic infighting get in the way of winning next year? I'm going to talk to a potential 2028 Democratic candidate ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

Republicans successfully ended the shutdown. Now comes a really hard part, figuring out what to do about health care costs when enhanced Obamacare subsidies expire on December 31.

Here with me now is one of the president's top medical advisers, the administrator for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Dr. Mehmet Oz.

Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

The president said he will be willing to talk about these subsidies once the shutdown is over. The shutdown is over. So is he willing to extend the subsidies at all?

[09:25:08]

DR. MEHMET OZ, ADMINISTRATOR, CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID SERVICES: The president's willing to look at all options.

But we have some major flaws with the way these COVID era subsidies were added. And just so everyone's on the same page in this issue, our goal is to get people covered. I especially want people covered who are trying to work. They're trying to climb their way up financially as they get jobs and evolve.

How do you do it wisely? So the original Obamacare had fundamental flaws in it. For example, when you make more than four times poverty, there was not an ability to get continued enhanced subsidies.

But there are other issues that are also present that the Democrats tried in early COVID to rectify by throwing money at it. The problem with the approach that was taken -- and if it was a great approach, I actually think they would have made those changes permanent.

The fact that they're designed to expire now is reflective of the fact that the current system is not the system that anyone really thought would work long term. It creates incentives for fraud.

And I will just give you one example, because I keep reading about this in different contexts, but you can understand it in a very straightforward way. Health insurance is different from other kinds of insurance. You don't want to use your fire insurance because you don't want your House burning down.

Health insurance, you tend to use every year. In fact, on average, 80 percent of people use their health insurance during the day. If you're watching right now, think about whether you have filled a prescription, went to a doctor's office. So, you use your insurance.

So let's say 20 percent of the time you don't use your insurance. That was also the number for the Obamacare exchanges. That number has now doubled, doubled.

BASH: Yes.

OZ: We have last year 24 million people on the exchanges; 11 million people never filed a claim.

BASH: So I hear you talking about how complicated it is and there is potential for fraud.

But the reality, is time is ticking. And there are people who are really going to suffer, because the system is the way it is, unless these are at least extended temporarily while you try to figure out a reform. Will that happen? Will you encourage the president to do that?

OZ: There are ways for us to continue to cover Americans without allowing the widespread fraud. And I don't want to underplay this; 4.4 million people right now we believe are getting full insurance coverage with the Obamacare. Many of them don't know they have that coverage. They're duly enrolled both in Medicaid and the ACA.

BASH: Can you fix that? It's the middle of November. Can you fix that in the next five weeks?

OZ: Well, we can definitely put an incentive to remove that as a possibility.

I will give you a good example. Get people to pay $5, $5. Is that too much to pay a month? Paying $5 a month means at least you have to opt into the program. You can't get falsely put on the program by some broker without you knowing about it.

BASH: So are there conversations about doing things like you just said with the Republicans in Congress, maybe even with Democrats, in order to get these subsidies at least extended in the short term?

OZ: There are discussions around extending subsidies if we deal with the fraud, waste and abuse that right now is paralyzing the system. There are ways of using our money wisely by putting it in the pockets of Americans.

There are things we actually put into the One Big Beautiful Bill like these CSRs, which are these cost-saving reduction tools that make insurance more efficient that would have saved us a lot of money that Democrats took out.

So there are already ideas we have put out there. We would have saved 10 percent on premiums if we'd allowed these CSRs to be enacted in the One Big Beautiful Bill. By not putting them in there, we're forcing people to pay more.

Dana, the big question is this. How do we ensure people, but make it sustainable? I'm passionate about this. I'm a heart surgeon. I want people having coverage when they come to see me for lifesaving heart surgery, or else I'm fearful they won't get that care.

But how do we do it in a way that makes the program sustainable for decades to come...

BASH: Yes.

OZ: ... so we don't fight this battle every single year?

BASH: Yes. Just to be clear, again, this isn't an hypothetical in the short term. That's why I'm so focused on it, because the deadline is where it is.

I want to play something from Donna and Chris Vetters. They have monthly health care payments that are expected to skyrocket from $401 a month to $2,000 a month. Listen to what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONNA VETTERS, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER: It's just impossible. There's no way. We're going to have to give up our health care.

CHRIS VETTERS, RECEIVES FEDERAL PENSION AND SOCIAL SECURITY: The increase in the health premiums would be half of my income. It's literally rolling the dice on whether we live or die at this point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So, again, what can the president and Congress do right now to help people like the Vetters?

OZ: This is the concern I have had from the moment I took my oath to run CMS. We have under Obamacare system that -- had a cliff at 400 percent of the poverty level.

That couple, I can almost guarantee you, is making over $100,000 a year. At some point, the Obamacare system just stopped paying for your insurance. They assumed you would just pay for it yourself. The extended subsidies covered them temporarily. It was designed only during COVID under, during a crisis.

But we still don't have a marketplace in America to help couples like that. We want to try to craft that. There are ideas that would allow us to do that. For example, we could give them the money, instead of giving it to the insurance companies.

BASH: OK. So that's a conversation that has been happening about giving -- the president has said there are billions of dollars that the government could send directly to people to purchase their own, much better health care.

[09:30:06]

How would that even work?

OZ: Well, we don't have market forces at play right now.

Think about it. What is it called? It's called the Obamacare exchange. It's a marketplace. What does marketplace mean? People actually have a role in a marketplace. They make decisions about what they value. It was originally designed to be 50 percent truly people from the private sector like that couple coming in and then 50 percent government- subsidized folks who couldn't afford their insurance.

We have priced the systems now so heavily with government subsidies that they crowds out the private sector.

BASH: But how would a check, getting a check in the mail actually work?

OZ: If you had a check in the mail, you could buy the insurance you thought was best for you.

BASH: Right, but how would the government actually make that happen?

OZ: Oh, we could use health savings accounts. There are different tactics, flexible savings accounts.

There are tools that exist right now that we could use. The question is, is that the best way for us to use taxpayer dollars? And this is critical. Is it sustainable? If we truly create a marketplace, can people use that money to wisely use their power to buy insurance that helps them?

BASH: What I'm hearing you saying are some fixes, and I know that you said it three weeks ago in an interview that you believe the president has a plan to replace Obamacare.

Is that where you're getting at here? Because this is certainly something that the president and Republicans tried to do in his first term and didn't succeed. Are you going to restart that?

OZ: I actually did not say I was going to replace Obamacare. What I said was, there are many ideas out there. Some of them could replace Obamacare. Many of them will not.

There's tactics that we're discussing right now. The shutdown just ended. We were held hostage, as you know, unable to even discuss this. We didn't have actuaries in the offices. We didn't have insurance experts. All those folks are back working full speed, and we are giving the president lots of options.

We have reinsurance as an option, which is traditionally used to make insurance more affordable. We have tactics that would allow Americans to play a different role than they historically have played in this marketplace.

But let me give you one big message, because it's critical. At the same time we figure out how to pay for this program, we have got to figure out how to drop the costs of the program. That's why things like the most favored nation drug pricing are so critical.

If we don't take proactive stances, as the president has done, to push down the prices of health care, no matter how much money you throw at these systems, it's never going to be enough.

BASH: We're out of time, but if somebody is watching now worried that they are not going to be able to afford insurance at the end of the year, are you making a promise that the president and Congress will make sure that they can?

OZ: I am promising the president is laser-focused on this. It's the main thing I talk with him about. Congress as well is all over this.

We have got to find solutions that don't just work at the end of this year, but work for years to come. And I do want to come back to this theme. We have ideas that will also drop the actual cost of care by putting pressure, downward pressure, on what we're paying for medications.

And that's probably a very good example. If you have insurance coverage, but your medications are also better priced, the insurance you buy is enough to buy those meds, you're in pretty good shape.

BASH: Dr. Oz, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

OZ: Pleasure.

BASH: And Democrats are back to pointing some fingers this week. Did their shutdown strategy actually pay off? My next guest pretty clearly is looking at running for president in 2028. We will talk about that and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:37:21]

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

The Democratic Party is in a bit of disarray. Stop me if you have heard this before, but Democrats are pointing fingers at one another after the shutdown ended without their demands being met, just as the party was hoping to project unity heading into the midterms, especially after last week's election.

Here with me now to discuss is former Chicago Mayor and former White House Chief of Staff, likely 2028 candidate for president Ambassador Rahm Emanuel.

Let's talk about where your party is right now. The divide over the shutdown is real. And yet the question is whether or not you can harness what I was just talking to Dr. Oz about, the anger over health care.

RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Well, a couple things I would say.

First, the government shutdown, I would look at is that Chuck Schumer is not the problem. Donald Trump and the rubber-stamp Republicans are the problem. Keep your eye on the prize. Focus on what's important.

BASH: Schumer's not the problem, but you didn't support the shutdown.

EMANUEL: No, I wouldn't have done that. But that's separate. I wouldn't also have voted for this proposal. Second and most importantly in this case, in every past case, 1995,

also in 2013, the party that forces a policy -- a government shutdown over a policy has lost both. In this case, separately, the Democrats lost the shutdown, but won the politics. And the Republicans won the shutdown, but lost the politics.

And what I mean by that is, yes, you got the government back open, but health care has risen to the top. President Trump showed his true colors to the American people. He's at the lowest level he's ever been polled at. He's going to be the most dominant factor in the 2026 election.

He has shown that he will go to the Supreme Court to deny hungry kids food so he can deny their parents health care. And that over 40 days is what's left. The American people, they don't know Chuck Schumer up or down or Democrats like this. Again, nobody does a firing squad in a circle like the Democratic Party.

We're experts at that. But the prize -- what you should remember is in 40 days, the longest shutdown, the American people saw what the Republicans and the president would do.

BASH: So what now?

EMANUEL: And in 2026, that's what's going to matter most.

What now is exactly what I would say in focusing on Dr. Oz. You have been talking for six years, Mr. President, about a health care plan. Put one out that controls costs and gives people coverage and fills preexisting condition.

Never once has there been, for all the criticism, a plan by the Republicans. They say they want to do it. Welcome into the deep end of the pool. It is really hard, having actually taken on the insurance companies to give 10 million kids health care and then also fought to help President Obama create Obamacare.

[09:40:05]

It is very difficult, but you have to deal with it because it's more difficult if you don't deal with it for the American people. And Dr. Oz used this point. He said he was held hostage. He wasn't held hostage.

The family that you had on there, they're the ones held hostage by the insurance companies. And we have to deal with it. It is right -- in the six years since President Trump has talked about the fact that he would have a plan to replace Obamacare...

BASH: So Obamacare does need to be reformed, you're saying?

EMANUEL: No. No, what you have to do is reform the insurance companies.

And this was a lifeline not only on coverage, but also on controlling costs that have exploded. During the last -- since Donald Trump says in 2017 he's going to have a plan, health care inflation is up 70 percent, and still no plan.

BASH: I want to ask you about what's going to happen in your former place of work, the House of Representatives, this week, one of your former places of work.

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: The Epstein files, the vote is going to happen. Do you think that Democrats should stay focused on this issue or does it take away from the affordability message that clearly helped Democrats do well last week?

EMANUEL: Well, here's what I think, and I would take a step back, because I think the Epstein files -- and yes, the short answer is to the first part of your question. Democrats should stay focused on it because the American people are interested, and it's about powerful people getting away with a bloody murder. And they need to be held accountable.

Number two, I think what's more important, when you look at the fissures on the Republican side on this issue, you're entering for the first time if you step back and take a wide lens view, Donald Trump is the most dominant victor -- factor in American politics since 2015 to now, when he walked down the golden escalator.

His days are waning, clear and present danger, but you're basically dealing, when you look at the Republican Party, a post-Trump MAGA world, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Epstein files. Indiana and Kansas won't follow them on -- him on redistricting.

The cracks are beginning to appear. Our side, Donald Trump has been a dominant factor. The only thing that we think about is how to fight Donald Trump. We have to begin as a party to think about how we fight for America, not just fight Donald Trump.

How do you fight for a middle class that has been forgotten and left on the side of the road? How do you fight the fact that two-thirds of our kids can't do reading and math at grade level, and every one of their competitors around the world can?

We have to get to a place not just about Donald Trump, but about America and its future. And the most important thing for that argument is, 2028 will be the first election in 20 years that will be about the future, and not the past. And that will be liberating for this country.

BASH: Rahm Emanuel, thank you so much for being here.

EMANUEL: Thank you.

BASH: Appreciate it.

And are we witnessing the breakup of the MAGA movement in real time? My panel weighs in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:47:17]

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

What does the explosive falling out between Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene mean for the larger MAGA movement?

My panel is here now.

And, Scott Jennings, who, I should say, has written a terrific book -- where am I? There we go. A terrific book, which we will talk about in one second, what did you think about what Marjorie Taylor Greene told me? And, specifically, she said that the president is effectively lying when he said that he told her not to run for that governor's mansion or the Senate.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, well, I think it's technically true, based on what I have heard and what I know, that he didn't tell her not to run.

But what she didn't say was that he sent her a poll privately, discreetly, and it had information in it. And it showed her down 20 points to Jon Ossoff. And so, in politics, when you want to send a message to someone that you like or that has been an ally, you don't embarrass them publicly.

You privately send them information and show them what the reality is. And so I think it's true that he didn't tell her not to run, but it's also true that he did her a big favor, which is to show her information that a candidacy statewide in Georgia for her would have been a disaster.

BASH: Congresswoman, thank you for being here.

I do want to ask about the promise and apology, promise not to be strident anymore., apology for some of the language and sort of violent language and posts that she's put up in the past. As one of her colleagues, what do you make of that?

REP. BECCA BALINT (D-VT): So, look, she has been a conflict entrepreneur the entire time that she has been in the House of Representatives.

If she is ready to finally understand the way that her messages, the way her rhetoric has impacted other people, then I'm all for it. But it is surprising that it took her being on the receiving end to finally realize that the kind of dehumanizing and demeaning rhetoric is actually terrible for the American experience.

So, look, I'm here for it, but it's one thing to get on a show and talk about it and be on your apology tour. It's another thing to actually show up and do the work day in and day out. So that's what I'm looking for.

BASH: Hogan, you advise the House speaker. How big of a vote is it going to be on the Epstein files? HOGAN GIDLEY, FORMER TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY: I

think it's going to come and go and be much ado about nothing, in large part because what we found out in the Epstein files that have been released, by the way, by Republicans -- we wouldn't even be having a conversation about this had it not been for a Republican Congress that put this forward, a Republican administration that put this out, because we all know Joe Biden and his administration had this documentation for four years and did nothing with it.

It's this Congress that is moving forward to let the American people see everything that went on, not to mention Comer's committee is doing epic work on this, getting things out, while protecting those poor women who ere so hurt by this monster of a man, Jeffrey Epstein.

[09:50:14]

So I think this thing will happen very quickly next week. I think regular business and regular order will continue.

BASH: How big?

GIDLEY: How big what?

BASH: A vote.

GIDLEY: I don't know what the numbers are going to be right now. I would imagine some Republicans do vote for it. But, again, a lot of them view this as duplicative, because we already have a committee that's doing this work, getting this information out right now.

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know I'm going to quarrel with one thing my friend Hogan just said, which is that we wouldn't be talking about this if it wasn't for Democrats.

The truth is, we wouldn't be talking about this if it wasn't for Donald Trump. We wouldn't be talking about this if Donald Trump had released the information when people asked for beginning -- in the beginning and not been protecting some -- whoever it is he's protecting or whatever it is he's protecting that he doesn't want people to know.

But, in politics, there's sort of rules. And one of those rules is, if you got an easy answer, you get it out quickly. He has not been getting it out. So it hasn't come out quickly.

And I just want to say on Marjorie Taylor Greene before we move too far past that, she seems like she's trying to get off the sort of crazy, toxic wagon, but she keeps falling off that wagon. She can't quite get herself right on the issues.

And so you saw in your interview, I mean, she took some pretty wild divots into anti-Israel land and couldn't quite get herself back into the place where she was sounding normal and trying to be welcoming.

I think that we are -- Sunday morning. I'm the son of an AME pastor. I'm all about sinners having a future, right? And saints have a past. But I'm not quite sure that we're going to see Marjorie Taylor Greene in the same place a week from now than she is today.

JENNINGS: It is interesting.

I really do think it started with that political engagement when they sent her that poll. That's when you start to see everything change. She opposed the president on his Middle East policy, attacking the Houthi rebels, attacking Iran. She's opposed the president on deportations this summer.

So she's sort of become a policy opponent of the president. But I think it really all started with that political engagement. And now she's one of his most frequent critics on some of what I would argue has been his biggest successes this year.

And if you want to count yourself as an ally of the president of the United States, it's not great to go out and run out to "The View" and other places and crap on him 24 hours a day. I mean, that's essentially what she's become. It's a well-worn path. A lot of other Republicans who've turned on the president have done that too.

BALINT: But there's a difference here, Scott, which is that you have only three women within the Republican Conference who are willing to take a stand on the discharge petition related to the Epstein files.

And you have a president that has been hauling those women up to the White House to try to get them to stand down. And the one thing that I can say is that I believe Marjorie Taylor Greene when she says she is here for those women. Those women have been silenced for years. And it's not just about the president.

It's about, who else has been protected by rich and powerful people?

GIDLEY: And those women have come out publicly and said Donald Trump had nothing to do with anything Jeffrey Epstein-related.

(CROSSTALK)

BALINT: And so why is it that the president will not just go forward and say, let the vote continue? Why is that?

GIDLEY: I'm so glad you found Jesus on this matter, because, four years, I don't remember you coming out and saying any of this.

BALINT: Oh, I knew you were going to go down this road. Oh, this is like weak sauce, weak sauce. This is what you always pivot back to.

(CROSSTALK)

GIDLEY: Well, it's the truth. I understand it hurts.

But there are three things here I think important to note.

SIMMONS: You know the Democrats aren't in charge anymore.

(LAUGHTER)

BALINT: Yes.

GIDLEY: Alan Dershowitz, Ghislaine Maxwell, and Giuffre all came out and said Trump had nothing to do with this.

So while I appreciate the fact that you want to pivot back to the president of the United States, it's the president of the United States that is getting this information out and ordering his DOJ to do the same.

BALINT: Hogan, here's the thing. There's -- he had nothing to do with it. Was he fully aware of what was happening?

It seems clear by the e-mails that came out this week that he knew that Jeffrey Epstein was actually...

GIDLEY: It doesn't seem clear that way at all, actually the exact opposite.

(CROSSTALK)

BALINT: Absolutely. Absolutely.

JENNINGS: He did know some things, which is why he excommunicated Jeffrey Epstein. And there's now evidence that Trump may have been the person who was telling the story.

(CROSSTALK)

BALINT: Oh, please.

BASH: Scott, you're eating into our book time.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: Everyone, mark it.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: "A Revolution of Common Sense: How Donald Trump"...

BALINT: Time to shill for your book here.

BASH: ... "Stormed Washington and Fought for Western Civilization.

Here's a quote: "The era of the scripted politician is over and the ones who succeed in the future will authentically speak in their own minds, instead of someone else's. Trump blazed a trail, and it will be fascinating to see if anyone in either party can ever approach replicating the connection he has with his people."

What's the answer to that question?

JENNINGS: Well, I don't think you will ever be able to replicate Donald Trump.

BALINT: Thank God. JENNINGS: Carrying the coalition forward will be left to others.

But replicating this moment, replicating the last 10 years, replicating the authenticity, he has changed politics, he's changed media. And, frankly, what the book is about is that he revolutionized governing.

When he came into this Trump 2.0 term, he picked the right team. They had a plan. I mean, he really hit Washington before it got out of bed in the morning. And he hasn't really stopped.

The book -- I pick out a lot of topics where he just -- they knew what they wanted to do. They apologized to no one. They waited for no one. They don't respect old arrangements. And most people that I know that voted for him can't believe how much he's been able to get done.

[09:55:00]

SIMMONS: You know, he's breaking the rules Donald Trump, he's also breaking the system.

And that's the problem that I think a lot of people have. If Donald Trump just came to office and he decided he wanted to build a ballroom, people would say, fine. But the problem is, he's not going by the system that actually determines what we get to do with our government building.

So he just takes a wrecking ball to the White House. And I got to tell you, I'm hearing about that from people. Now he wants to paint the Executive Office Building. I mean, we're seeing it in all the different ways, not just the cosmetics of what's happening in Washington, but the system of what's happening.

Even the British intelligence agencies don't want to share intelligence with us. And they're one of our greatest allies. This is a big problem for the country.

BALINT: I thought that I would never agree with Scott Jennings on anything. And I believe that you're right. It is about authenticity, but it is also about actually supporting and defending the Constitution, which we're not seeing right now.

GIDLEY: Breaking the system. Amen.

BASH: We have to go. It's a terrific book, lots of great narratives in here, including that meeting that you went to with the president and his national security team.

GIDLEY: It's wild.

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: There's a teaser.

(LAUGHTER) BASH: Tonight: The world had never seen a prime minister like her, from grappling with the pandemic, to mass shootings, to giving birth while in office.

Take an intimate look into the extraordinary political career and life of New Zealand's former leader Jacinda Ardern in the CNN film "Prime Minister." It premieres tonight at 9:00 p.m. on CNN and the next day on CNN All Access.

Thank you so much for spending your Sunday morning with us.

Fareed Zakaria picks it up next.