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State of the Union
Interview With Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH); Interview With U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired August 02, 2026 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:00:39]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Under the microscope. Fury on Capitol Hill.
SEN. BERNIE MORENO (R-OH): Who the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) do you think you were for doing that?
BASH: The health secretary reopens the COVID debate.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I respectfully decline to answer.
BASH: But with new threats testing the public health system, is he doing enough to keep Americans safe?
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: We do have the outbreak under control.
BASH: HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. joins me next.
Plus: family feud. President Trump clashes with his own U.S. attorney over the Reflecting Pool and issues a new threat against Republicans he ushered out of office.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): The president's getting bad advice.
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Can they roll you?
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): No.
BASH: Is his grip on the party slipping? I'll speak with House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Jordan ahead.
And momentum. Democrats surge, as voters tell CNN they're all in on opposing Trump. But what kind of Democrat goes better against him? Our political panel breaks it all down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is wondering what happens next.
We are wrapping up another wild week here in Washington. The president is lashing out at two Republican senators, threatening to revive the so-called anti-weaponization fund his Justice Department has said is dead, and he attacked his own U.S. attorney, Jeanine Pirro, after she acknowledged in court the administration had wrongly blamed an Olympian for a botched contracting job on the Reflecting Pool.
And all that happened just yesterday. Washington was also gripped this week by a blast from the past, as former top Trump health official Dr. Anthony Fauci repeatedly pleaded the Fifth at a congressional hearing over his handling of the COVID pandemic, all while the U.S. faces health challenges from disease outbreaks to rising health care costs.
Here with me now is the health and human services secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Thank you for being here.
KENNEDY: Thanks for having me.
BASH: Appreciate it.
You have been placing nearly all the blame on the COVID pandemic and the way that the U.S. responded to it squarely with Dr. Fauci. But, of course, he worked for President Trump. Does President Trump also deserve some of the blame?
KENNEDY: Well President Trump, as you recall, wanted to end the lockdowns.
I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns, lockdowns that shut down 3.5 million businesses in our country with no due process, no just compensation, all of our churches, closed our schools, and our children are still paying the price for that.
And yet we had the worst outcome of any country in the world.
BASH: How so?
KENNEDY: We have the highest death rate from COVID of any nation on Earth.
BASH: Well, let me just say, because I have heard you say that before on the death rate from COVID. That's not accurate, because public health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that, higher rates of chronic illnesses, which I know you would agree with, gaps to our health care system, and misinformation about vaccines.
KENNEDY: Yes, you just said what I suppose inaccurate. What I said was accurate. We had the highest death rate from COVID of any...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Well, there are other countries that had higher, but go ahead.
KENNEDY: You can argue about why we had that. But you -- nobody can tell you.
I mean, we have -- as you say, we have the highest chronic disease burden in the world. And Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic and was doing it under the Biden administration. President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns.
And, in fact, in Anthony Fauci's diaries, he talks about how President Trump is calling him every day, trying to get him to reopen the country.
BASH: Yes, well, the lockdowns were done by governors. I mean, certainly, Anthony Fauci and the president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors, and largely because -- and largely because they were hearing they were hearing from hospitals saying that their ICUs were overrun and they needed some help while that was happening.
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: Well, that's not true. Dana, that's just not true.
BASH: It is true.
KENNEDY: What you're saying is not true. No, they were doing it because Anthony Fauci was telling them from the top, you need to lock down. There were ICUs that were empty all over the country, including in New York at the height.
[09:05:12]
BASH: I'm asking you -- I'm going to go back to what I asked you at the beginning, which is President Trump. And he was the guy in charge.
And he -- you tweeted back in 2024 that he let bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci shut down the entire country. Again, the president was in charge.
KENNEDY: The president was trying to reopen the country when he left.
The country was kept closed for another year, almost a year-and-a-half after that.
BASH: Let's talk about how to prevent the next pandemic, because there's a lot of litigating and relitigating that I don't think is really helpful to do with regard to COVID.
And the question is about so-called gain of function, which, for people who aren't entirely clear about it, it is a highly risky research process that includes manipulating a virus to study how it behaves as it evolves.
Now, what scientists say is that, although it's controversial, it's necessary to prepare for the next pandemic, to get ahead of it, to figure out what these viruses can do. You want to end this gain of function research. Some scientists say, isn't it better just to put better guardrails around it?
KENNEDY: People have been trying to put guardrails around it for generations, and it hasn't worked.
And, clearly, the COVID-19 pandemic and many other global pandemics that we have, have come from data function research. The RSV epidemic that we have that is the biggest killer of kids in this country today came from these kind of experiments. The Lyme disease almost certainly came from this kind of research.
So -- and the scientists who you say are experts are making the argument that this is necessary for pandemic response cannot point to one instance in history where research that came out of this kind of experimentation has actually provided us something beneficial.
BASH: So, how do you prepare then? How do you prepare for the next pandemic? I mean, that's literally part of your job now, because experts think it's going to happen within the next 10 years again.
KENNEDY: Yes, I mean, I think we did virtually everything wrong the last time.
BASH: So -- but what about now?
KENNEDY: The principal thing that we need to do is, we need to listen to what's happening to doctors on the ground. There are 15 million frontline physicians around the world.
They're mainly now connected through the Internet. We can tell on the front lines what's working and what's not. If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we would have saved potentially millions of lives. There were therapeutics out there that were working. There were doctors that were having no deaths from COVID and treating in some cases thousands of patients.
And we weren't listening to them. Instead, we were doing the opposite. We were shutting them down. And then, Dana, the other thing that I would say is that we need to protect our constitutional rights. That is the primary obligation of our country.
BASH: What does that mean?
KENNEDY: Well, during COVID, we completely dismantled our constitutional rights. We began censoring people, in violation of the First Amendment.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: But you're saying what not to do. I'm asking what to do.
But I but I want to talk about...
KENNEDY: Well, that's something to do. That is the number one priority. We protect the Constitution.
The Constitution was written.
BASH: Forgive me, but you're just -- you're talking about rights, and I'm asking about a potential public health crisis that is coming.
But I do want to -- let's...
KENNEDY: And one of the mistakes we made in the last time was suppressing those rights so people weren't being heard.
Doctors who were saying you're doing it wrong were being marginalized and vilified and...
BASH: Yes, because -- because -- again, I really want to move on. But you were saying you were...
KENNEDY: Of course you want to move...
BASH: Yes, I do.
KENNEDY: ... because you were part of the problem.
BASH: No, I wasn't part of the problem.
KENNEDY: There was absolute press malpractice. You weren't allowing -- your job...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Mr. Secretary, your job...
KENNEDY: Your job is a fierce skepticism toward authority.
BASH: OK. Yes, I am. I am.
KENNEDY: And you weren't doing that. You were beating up on people who were dissenting.
BASH: My job is also -- no, OK. Are you going to -- you want to sit here and attack me, or do you want to have conversations about public health?
KENNEDY: Well, you're sitting here and attacking me.
BASH: I'm not attacking you. I'm asking questions about how to prevent the next pandemic.
KENNEDY: And let me answer the question. And I will tell you .
BASH: That's what I'm trying to do. But I also don't want to use this interview to allow you to say things that aren't entirely true. You're talking about therapeutics. Fine. It is also factually true that the COVID vaccine worked. The COVID
vaccine prevented deaths. There is data upon data upon data.
[09:10:05]
Let's talk about the measles, please, because this is something that is happening as we speak. The cases in the U.S...
KENNEDY: You think the COVID vaccine protected children?
BASH: I think that what I have talked to scientists and doctors about...
KENNEDY: You have talked to scientists.
Can you look -- can you show me one study...
BASH: Yes, I can. I can.
KENNEDY: ... that shows that children were protected by the COVID vaccine?
BASH: I can tell you that there are...
KENNEDY: That that vaccine did more good than harm to children? Can you show me one study that shows that?
BASH: I can tell you that, when it comes to the vaccine, there have been studies that show that, because of vaccine disinformation, disinformation, there could have been 100,000 to 200,000 in the U.S. saved But because people didn't get the vaccine, that's why.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I'm not saying that it entirely -- let me finish. Let me finish.
KENNEDY: You are saying nonsense. You are saying something that you cannot show me a single study.
BASH: OK. I am not saying nonsense. I'm -- excuse me.
KENNEDY: You are talking -- somebody told you.
BASH: Excuse me. Let me...
KENNEDY: And you -- cite me the study. What study?
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: No, what studies are you talking about? You're talking about studies that actually don't exist.
I want to talk about the...
KENNEDY: Cite me the study. You're talking about it. BASH: I'm not here to defend...
KENNEDY: You say you have seen studies. Cite me the study.
BASH: This is not productive. I am not here to defend all of the -- let me finish.
KENNEDY: You're just -- you're talking nonsense. You're making assertions you can't support, and then when I call you on them, you're telling me I'm arguing with you.
BASH: OK, do you want to talk about you want to talk about assertions that you can't support? I will get there in a second.
Let me just say, for the record, that I am not saying that the entire way that the COVID reaction was accurate. It was a scary time, and people made mistakes, absolutely. Let me finish.
KENNEDY: You were scaring people.
BASH: Why are you saying that?
KENNEDY: Because that was the job of CNN...
BASH: OK. OK, stop.
KENNEDY: ... was to put the Chyrons up about many people are dying to get people to comply.
BASH: We were trying to be -- we were listening to the leaders in this country, including the president, who had a daily press conference explaining what was going on, and trying to listen.
KENNEDY: Were you listening to the scientists, actually?
BASH: I want to talk to -- measles.
KENNEDY: Were you reading the science yourself?
BASH: The measles cases in the U.S. just reached a 35-year high, the second record-breaking year in a row; 93 percent of these cases are among the unvaccinated. The outbreak is happening on your watch.
And even before becoming HHS secretary, for years, you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines. Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak?
KENNEDY: Absolutely not.
First of all, this is an international outbreak. So we're doing better at handling it than any country in the world. Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have. Canada has four times the amount of measles.
England has two times the amount of measles. Did I cause those measles outbreaks? BASH: You're the most famous...
KENNEDY: Did I cause 137,000 cases of measles in Europe?
BASH: You're the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet.
KENNEDY: Let me tell you, because actually Anthony Fauci in his diaries answers the question about why we're having a measles outbreak right now.
The reason we're having a measles outbreak is because of the COVID lockdowns, because people didn't -- like, children during that period did not get vaccinated. And, in his diaries, he says this is going to cause massive outbreaks of measles and more children -- he says this -- are going to die.
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: Let me finish, because you accused me of something. Now let me...
BASH: Go ahead. No, I didn't. I asked you a question.
KENNEDY: Yes, let me give you the answer. He says in his diaries, more children are going to die from measles because of these lockdowns than COVID.
So, if you want to know -- and that age group that should have gotten the MMR when they were 18 months and didn't get it, they're the ones being infected. The people in this country -- and we have stopped the outbreaks at record speed in South Carolina and Texas and Utah and Virginia. We have done better than any country in the world.
I dispatch immediately the epidemic intelligence services to those states. I get on the phone with the governor and we stop them in their tracks.
BASH: OK.
KENNEDY: Nobody else has been able to do that.
BASH: You have a bully pulpit.
KENNEDY: Let me tell you just one last thing.
BASH: Go ahead. Go ahead.
KENNEDY: The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just don't vaccinate. The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine.
It's hard to blame that on me, as much as you want to blame it on me.
BASH: No, I don't want to blame you. I'm asking you because you have a very powerful voice on these issues for people who are skeptical. (CROSSTALK)
BASH: Let me finish. Let me finish.
KENNEDY: I have never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: OK, let me -- let me finish. What I want you to do is please use your bully pulpit to right now, as we're getting close to back to school, say -- are you willing to say to parents who have not vaccinated their kids that they should vaccinate their kids for measles because it is safe and it will help them save their children's lives?
[09:15:10]
KENNEDY: I tell people on my Web sites, my public...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Right now. Look into the camera.
KENNEDY: I will say it right now, that people -- parents should get their children vaccinated for measles.
A measles vaccine is effective. It stops measles in about 97 percent of the cases. So, people should get vaccinated.
BASH: Can I ask you?
"The Wall Street Journal" reported that the president is pressuring you to conduct studies probing the link between vaccines and autism. Is that true?
KENNEDY: Did you say probing the link?
BASH: What "The Wall" -- I'm just quoting "The Wall Street Journal," that they, that the president wants you to go further to probe the links between autism and vaccines.
KENNEDY: He certainly does.
BASH: OK. Now, have you talked to him about medical research that have studied this for 25 years and found no link between autism and vaccines?
And just that -- this is my question here, because I don't want to litigate that. My question is, why not -- because you are HHS secretary now. Why not study what could cause autism, which scientists do believe starts with fetal brain development? Why not do some studies on that, whether there's -- since you're an environmental lawyer, whether there are environmental factors that go into contributing to a predisposed genetic situation?
KENNEDY: Well, let me say this first. We're doing all those things. And that's one of the ways that we found Tylenol. There's 73 studies out that link Tylenol exposure during later pregnancy and during the perinatal period to autism onset.
But you are wrong when you say that this issue has been studied. It has been studied. And you're rolling your eyes, Dana, but this is another example...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I am, because I don't want -- I don't want to have you use our air to say this.
There have been more than 40 studies involving 5.6 million people to conclude there is no link between vaccines and autism. This is the head of the Committee of Infectious Diseases for the American Academy of Pediatrics.
KENNEDY: And now let me tell you what the Institute of Medicine is -- says, which is the National Academy of Sciences, which is the ultimate arbiter on vaccine safety, in which it does not have an interest in this debate.
It says that none of the eight vaccines that are administered during the first six months of life have ever been studied for relationship to autism. It found two studies, one on the DTP vaccine that show that it does cause autism, and one on the hepatitis B vaccine that again suggests that it does cause autism.
The Institute of Medicine dismissed those two studies because they were based on CDC's database. The studies that you're referring to are all from one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, or one ingredient, thimerosal.
BASH: So you are using -- you are actually looking at -- you're starting new studies to try to link autism, but you're also telling me...
KENNEDY: I'm not trying to link autism to anything. I'm trying to find out, why has autism gone from...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Are you also trying to find out how it interacts with people's DNA, what's predisposed to have an autistic child? Are you doing both?
KENNEDY: Yes.
But, Dana, you probably don't understand this because you're not a scientist.
BASH: Well, you're not either.
KENNEDY: But genes don't cause -- genes don't cause epidemics.
BASH: I understand. Genes -- epidemics?
KENNEDY: They can provide a vulnerability, but you need environmental exposure.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Environmental. That's what I'm asking. Are you studying the environmental exposure?
KENNEDY: We're looking at all the different environmental exposures.
But your statement -- you have been fooled. Your statement that this has been studied is not true. It's categorically not true, not for any of the study.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: It is considered decided.
KENNEDY: Considered by who?
BASH: By every scientist who has studied this.
KENNEDY: That is not true.
BASH: It is true.
KENNEDY: I can give you hundreds of scientists who have looked at this and say, why is the...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: So, on the one hand, you are -- do you understand why people aren't getting...
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: This is the National Academy of Sciences. What greater authority do...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Do you understand why people are not getting measles vaccines? Because they're hearing you say that it could cause autism.
KENNEDY: You're trying to change the subject.
BASH: I'm not. It's very much related.
KENNEDY: And, look, show me one of the studies that's been done on the first eight -- the vaccines during the first six months of life. You will not find them.
The National Academy of Sciences states they do not exist.
BASH: So, if that's the case, then why are you telling people to get the measles vaccine?
KENNEDY: If people -- because that is one of the vaccines that has been studied.
BASH: OK.
KENNEDY: It's the only one that has been studied.
BASH: Do you want people to get the MMR vaccine?
KENNEDY: Yes, I said that already.
BASH: OK.
KENNEDY: So I know you're flustered now, and it is...
BASH: I don't -- I'm not flustered at all.
KENNEDY: It is frustrating because people...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I am frustrated. The reason I'm frustrated is because I -- you are the HHS secretary, and you are talking about things that lead to vaccine hesitancy in this country.
[09:20:09]
And it is something that causes problems for people, when there is not anything...
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: Let me ask you something. Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy, or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people?
BASH: I see my job as telling the truth.
And the truth is that there is study after study after study. It's one of the most studied things out there in science.
KENNEDY: You're repeating it like a parrot. You're repeating it like a parrot.
BASH: So are you.
KENNEDY: I have actually read the science. Let's...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: You don't want to...
KENNEDY: Let's you and I come back here and debate the science.
BASH: I don't -- I'm not debating this with you.
KENNEDY: Of course you won't.
BASH: No, because I'm not...
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: All you know how to do is repeat things that people told you and say, trust the experts.
That's what you did during COVID. Now we know that Anthony Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything, about masks, about the social distancing, about natural immunity, about the transmission from the vaccine, about the source of COVID.
He was lying, and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts. And now you're rolling out the experts again...
BASH: Yes.
KENNEDY: ... to talk about something that you have no personal knowledge of.
BASH: OK. Well, guess what? That is my job to talk to people.
KENNEDY: Your job is to tell the truth to the American public...
BASH: Am I allowed to talk? Yes, yes. And my job is to get as much information as I can.
KENNEDY: ... and to maintain a posture of fierce skepticism toward government authority.
BASH: What we were doing in COVID and still, with regard to these vaccines, is getting the best information, the best science that we can and putting it out there.
And, sir, you what you are doing is causing information to be out there that is not accurate.
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: ... lying to you, who is lying to you.
BASH: The National Academy of Sciences, which you just cited, in November, said: "We support the statement that vaccines do not cause autism." This is the National Academy of Sciences that you just talked about.
KENNEDY: The National -- look at the National Academy of Sciences' most recent report.
BASH: OK.
KENNEDY: And you will see.
BASH: I don't -- I want to ask you one other question because it's something that really did help Donald Trump get elected, and that is the MAHA movement and specifically the question of processed foods.
KENNEDY: Of what?
BASH: Processed foods and the fact that people want to feel that their food is safe.
My understanding is that you're pushing for reforms on food safety and ultra-processed foods that have been slowed, in some cases blocked by people in the administration who are working on behalf of the industry. Is that true?
KENNEDY: No, that is not true.
BASH: So you feel that you will be able to get these reforms done without any problems?
KENNEDY: I think the GRAS -- the two big reforms that you're probably talking about is ultra-processed food definition...
BASH: Exactly.
KENNEDY: ... and the GRAS standards.
BASH: Yes.
KENNEDY: And they have both gone through extensive interagency process. I'm very confident that we will get them both out there within probably a month.
BASH: Well, I'm sorry that this -- and that's good news for people who are very -- moms, and I'm one of them, who are very worried about making sure that our kids eat food and we eat food that is that is healthy.
I'm sorry that this turned into a very contentious conversation, and my job is to try to get the best information out there. And it does concern me when you come in and say things that have -- I...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Yes, people who have scientific backgrounds, and who I know have tried to talk to you as well.
Thank you for coming in.
BASH: Up next: He helped lead the Biden administration's COVID response, Dr. Ashish Jha joins me next.
Plus, the U.S. attorney acknowledges in court the Trump administration wasn't telling the truth. How's that going over? We will talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:28:08]
BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.
There is a lot to unpack from what we just heard from HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Here with me now is Dr. Ashish Jha, who is a public health expert and served as White House COVID-19 response coordinator during the Biden administration.
Dr. Jha, thank you so much for being here.
First, generally speaking, your response to what you think was the most important things that we heard from Secretary Kennedy.
DR. ASHISH JHA, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR: Well, first of all, Dana, thanks for having me back.
Couple of things. I mean, first, in 2020, I was advising a lot of governors and mayors. I was actually speaking to the Trump White House. The one thing that was always clear to me was that the buck stopped with the leaders. My advice was exactly that, advice.
Same thing with Dr. Fauci. He gave advice. Some people listened. Some people didn't. But at the end of the day, the accountability has to be with our political leaders, not with scientists who are giving advice.
Second issue that I just want to quickly reflect on, there was a lot of information that Secretary Kennedy said that it just isn't true. It's just factually not true. And I have read the studies, issues around the eight infant vaccines and whether they have been studied against autism.
They actually have. As you might imagine, America is not the only country in the world that thinks about these things. The Europeans have studied this. Obviously, Americans have studied this. This has been an issue that we have settled over and over again. There is zero link between vaccines and autism.
It does -- this stuff does get a little bit tiresome. Obviously, there's a lot of other things that he discussed. I'm happy to get into them. But I think those are two important points to understand.
BASH: And what about the measles? Because let's talk about that, since that's where we are right now. He did say that, even though he was talking about the skepticism that he has about vaccines overall and insisting there is potentially a link, a link between autism and vaccines, he did say that people should get the MMR vaccine, which includes -- one of the M's is measles.
[09:30:07]
JHA: Yes, I was heartened to hear that. It was great to hear the secretary say that absolutely every kid in America, every child in America should be getting the MMR vaccine.
Obviously, my own kids all got them on schedule, on time. I think that's important. It is true there are other countries that are having outbreaks as well. The truth is that the last two years, we have had more measles cases than the entire rest of the 21st century. The last 25 years, we have had fewer cases combined than the last two. Maybe that's a coincidence, Dana. I don't think it is. I think the
administration has not done enough to promote vaccines, has not done enough to highlight the harms that come from measles. Measles still is quite a dangerous virus, and we should be doing a lot more.
And, by the way, this is not an isolation. We have seen the largest cyclospora outbreak in years. We're seeing other public health, the screwworm coming back into the U.S. This is part of a broader pattern that we're seeing.
BASH: What about the idea that this gain of function research, which is, you go into a lab and you help take a disease and you give it mutations in order to see what happens to try to come up with potential help for vaccines for it in the future?
He said that RSV and COVID came from gain of function research.
JHA: Yes, first of all, no, RSV did not come from any gain of function research.
Obviously, COVID remains controversial, but here's the point I would make. There's been a bipartisan effort to try to put guardrails, how to reduce gain of function research. I'm actually very supportive of those guardrails.
The broader point is, we can put in those guardrails. We can even ban gain of function research. Is China banning gain to function research? Are other countries? Is Russia banning gain of function research? We have to understand this now as a global issue.
Whatever we do alone will not prevent the next outbreak. This is something I think the administration is not paying enough attention to, and we have really got to get on top of that.
BASH: And, before I let you go, you reshared a tweet that said, among other things, the available evidence overwhelmingly does not show that it -- well, let me say it this way. You said that the available evidence points towards research-related incidents in Wuhan as the origin of the COVID-19 pandemic, and that we were funding research in an institution where we lacked full transparency Into what research was being conducted.
You agreed with that.
JHA: I did.
This is going to surprise some people. When I went into the White House, my view was this was almost surely a natural outbreak, maybe a lab leak. Based on information I learned and based on information I have seen, I have come to conclude that it is more likely to have been a lab leak.
Here's the bottom line. No one in the United States knows for sure. The only people who know for sure are people -- officials in China, and we still need transparency and accountability on that. So that is my best assessment. I'm not suggesting I know for sure, but I'm saying my best assessment
is that it probably was a lab leak.
BASH: That is definitely news to hear that from you, for sure, and shows that we're just -- we're still learning, which is really important.
Thank you so much, Dr. Jha, for jumping on with us. I really appreciate it.
Up next: Two Republican senators say they won't believe a promise from the Trump administration unless they see it in writing. This weekend, did the president prove them right?
House Judiciary Committee Chair Jim Jordan will join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:37:46]
BASH: With his nominee for attorney general stalled, President Trump is issuing a new threat, declaring on social media that, if Republicans don't confirm Todd Blanche, then his controversial $1.8 billion so-called anti-weaponization fund would -- quote -- "immediately be back on the table, and I will get it done." Blanche had previously said that fund was dead.
Here with me now is the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Republican Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio.
Thank you so much for being here.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): You bet, Dana.
BASH: So President Trump making clear, from his point of view, the anti-weaponization fund is not dead. You and others have said that you believe it is.
So you're the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. Is it dead or is it not?
JORDAN: Well -- well, Todd Blanche under oath said it was dead. Todd Blanche needs to be confirmed.
I have been in Congress now 19 years. I have never had an attorney general that I could work with like Todd Blanche. I think -- I think he's doing an outstanding job. And even Senator Tillis and Senator Cornyn have said he's highly qualified. So they should confirm this guy, because he's doing an out -- bringing down crime, going after the fraudsters who've been ripping off American tax dollars.
Todd's doing a great job. He needs to be confirmed, and let's hope it happens soon.
BASH: You're right that these two senators are saying that this is unfortunate that this is happening to Todd Blanche because it's about this weaponization fund and the IRS settlement.
But, on the weaponization fund, are you saying that what that the president is not accurate or he's not telling the truth when he said just this weekend that it's still viable?
JORDAN: Well, I think what the president -- I think what he said, Dana, was in the -- I think what he said was in the context of if they're not going to confirm Todd Blanche, then he's going to pull it back and then he's going to renominate Todd Blanche after the election.
I think he said that. OK, if that's what the president wants to do, that's fine. What I want to get is Todd Blanche confirmed because he's doing a good job. I mean, Todd Blanche is -- he was a defense lawyer. Before that, he was a prosecutor. He's a working lawyer. He's doing an outstanding job.
And the idea that they won't confirm him and they voted to confirm Merrick Garland, the guy who gave us the memo that said, oh, we're going to go spy on parents at school board meetings, the guy who gave us -- his Justice Department did the memorandum and said if you're a pro-life Catholic, you're an extremist, they confirmed that guy, but they won't confirm Todd Blanche? That makes no sense.
(CROSSTALK)
[09:40:00]
BASH: What do you think about the fund? Do you think the fund is a good idea?
JORDAN: Well, it's no different than what Merrick Garland did with Peter Strzok and Lisa Page. He paid Peter Strzok $1.2 million.
BASH: So, yes, you think that it should stay alive?
JORDAN: The same -- I'm saying it's -- there's a fund right now that compensates people who've been wronged.
BASH: Well, to add $1.8 billion to it.
JORDAN: And Merrick Garland said -- Peter Strzok got $1.2 million, for goodness' sake.
That fund is for people like Mark Houck, who had his door kicked in front of his wife and seven kids, was taken to court, taken to trial. His lawyer said, we will show up, we will meet you wherever. No, no, no. They kicked in his door during the Garland and Biden administration, and they took him to court, and, of course, the jury found him not guilty.
It's for folks like that. That's what that fund's for.
BASH: OK, so I want to...
JORDAN: And it's been used in the past to compensate Peter Strzok and Lisa -- Lisa Page got $800,000, for goodness' sake.
BASH: You are -- Mr. Chairman, you are right that this fund exists, and this is a question of putting more money into it.
But, on that note, just kind of looking ahead to who could or should be eligible for the fund, I want to play something that the interior secretary, Doug Burgum, told me about the Reflecting Pool. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOUG BURGUM, U.S. INTERIOR SECRETARY: It didn't peel off. There was there was -- there was vandalism. There was box cutters. There have been seven arrests. There was people literally trying to destroy part of the monument.
BASH: You're 100 percent sure that what happened with the liner was vandalism? You can prove it?
BURGUM: Oh, yes, absolutely you can. And we -- and as we drain it, we have got all the photographs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: As you well know, the U.S. attorney here in D.C., Jeanine Pirro, says that vandalism did not damage the pool, but it was a hasty and botched contract renovation that did. They dropped their case, a criminal case that they had against a former Olympian David Hearn.
JORDAN: Yes.
BASH: Given what he's gone through, should he be eligible for money from the anti-weaponization fund?
JORDAN: Well, that'd be up to the board...
BASH: Well, what do you think?
JORDAN: ... I mean, if this thing is formed. Remember, we're -- that's up to the -- I don't make the decision. It's up to them.
BASH: I know, but you have an opinion.
JORDAN: What I do know is, Peter Strzok shouldn't have got $1.2 million...
BASH: So, you have an opinion on that.
JORDAN: ... when he was trying to undermine President Trump's election campaign, the guy who said that -- oh, yes.
BASH: You have an opinion that he shouldn't have gotten it. What about David Hearn?
JORDAN: Well, that will be up to the board. And I don't know all the facts. This story just broke. I don't know all the facts, why they did -- why the Justice Department
dropped the case, why the Department of Interior said that there was something there. I'd have to go look at all that. We have to look.
What I do know is, President Trump is focused on making America great and focused on making Washington beautiful again.
BASH: OK.
JORDAN: And he's been -- he's been focused on that. We will have to get to the facts of this case. I just don't know.
BASH: Mr. Chairman, they were -- one of the facts now -- and this is based on what the president's own U.S. attorney, Jeanine Pirro, who I know you know well -- she used to be on FOX -- said in a court document.
The ramifications of it was that they were trying to send a man who was innocent to jail based on lies about vandalism. He was accused of crimes that he did not commit. As chair of the Judiciary Committee, does that bother you?
JORDAN: I have -- if that's the -- if those are the facts, of course, but I don't know that those are the facts. We have not seen all that evidence.
What I do know is what I talked about, Mark Houck. What I do know, what happened in the Garland-Biden Justice Department is FBI whistle- blowers that came to us.
BASH: You keep turning it back to Biden. I'm asking you about now.
JORDAN: No, I'm not. I'm not turning it back. I'm telling you things I know about. I don't know all the facts with this case.
BASH: OK.
JORDAN: But with those cases, I do.
BASH: So, once you learn all the facts, I am interested...
JORDAN: And when FBI whistle-blowers were retaliated against, that was wrong. That's what this fund is for.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: OK, I am interested. I do want to talk to you again once you get all the facts, because this seems like...
JORDAN: Sure.
BASH: ... if you want the weaponization fund, this is seems like weaponization against somebody. Never mind that he was an Olympian for the United States.
Before I let you go, last week, you sent a criminal referral to the Justice Department for former special counsel Jack Smith...
JORDAN: Yes.
BASH: ... for making what you alleged to be false statements during a congressional deposition last year.
Todd Blanche was President Trump's defense attorney during that Smith investigation. Should he recuse himself, even as acting attorney general, from any prosecutorial decisions involving Smith?
JORDAN: No, of course not.
BASH: Why?
JORDAN: Of course not. He should just follow the facts. He should he should keep doing the great work he's -- because he's the attorney general of the United States.
BASH: But he was the president's personal for this case.
JORDAN: And if Jack Smith lied to us, he lied to us.
It has -- well, that has nothing to do with it. Jack Smith is supposed to tell us the truth. We ask him, did you get the contents of any communications of United States members -- of members of the United States Congress? And he said, no, he didn't, when, in fact, he did. I mean, did Jack Smith not know? Was he that ridiculous?
I mean, he's supposed to be the smartest guy in the world. He's supposed to be as smart as Anthony Fauci, for goodness' sake. He did not know that?
BASH: Yes.
JORDAN: You can't sit under oath and tell us you did not get the contents of communications of members of Congress, when, in fact, you did. And that's pretty clear.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Yes.
JORDAN: So, if Todd wants -- if the Justice Department wants to prosecute him, that's up to them. He should not recuse himself.
BASH: OK. I just -- we're going to -- we're out of time, but I just want to say that what Smith says and what Jamie Raskin, your counterpart, has said in a statement is not that he didn't tell you the truth, that you guys didn't ask him -- ask him the right question.
[09:45:05]
JORDAN: Dana, come on.
BASH: That you didn't ask him the right questions. JORDAN: Come on, we -- no, come on, we say at the start of every deposition, you have an obligation to give us the full truth. You can't give us part of the truth. You got to give us the full -- all the facts, and he did not do that.
And you're -- and you're trying -- that is -- first of all, he went and got our phone records.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I'm just saying what he said.
JORDAN: Then -- he we were asking..
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: OK. He also...
JORDAN: He got the contents of communications. He did not filter that out. That is a violation of the Constitution Speech or Debate Clause, clear as day, clear as could be.
BASH: Yes. OK. Jamie Raskin says that that question was not followed up on.
JORDAN: Well, Jamie Raskin -- of course, the Democrats are going to say that.
BASH: I wasn't there. You guys were there.
So, listen, I appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much. And, again, come back after you get more information about the case with the Reflecting Pool.
JORDAN: Sure. Will do.
BASH: OK.
And it is decision time for Democrats, not just over who to nominate for Senate in a key state, but over the future of the party itself. Our panel will break it all down next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:50:38]
BASH: Democrats face a major choice this week.
My panel joins me now.
That choice, of course, is the Michigan Democratic primary, and you have the sort of differences in the Democratic Party now embodied in these two candidates, Haley Stevens and also Abdul El-Sayed.
What do you think? KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the key
motivator that we see across the board for voters right now is change. It's change.
They're frustrated with the status quo. They're frustrated with Washington. So the test for Haley Stevens is, can she present herself as enough of an agent of change? I think it's very clear that Abdul El-Sayed has captured that lane.
Now, I think we're -- well, we will see what happens on Tuesday. A lot of that's going to depend on what the electorate looks like, who turns out. Older voters tend to align with Haley. Black voters tend to align with Haley, although not entirely.
So it's going to depend a little bit on what the electorate looks like. And then the question becomes, we're looking at right now potentially a very good Democratic year in November. And the question is, can a candidate -- if Abdul El-Sayed advances, can a candidate who supports some of the -- some of the positions that have yet to be tested in purple districts and in purple states, can he make a case for it convincingly?
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So I do think it will -- I'm looking at black voters. I think there will be a generational split, actually.
I think potentially older black voters will -- and who typically are more likely to turn out in primaries, will most likely go to Stevens, and I think younger black voters, which is a turnout game, which will be super important also in the general election, might go more to Abdul.
I'm also looking at the Dearborn area, right? So if you go back to 2024, it was so consequential for Kamala Harris to win those voters, and many of those voters felt like the Biden administration had turned their backs. If he can get high numbers there, those are just communities that Haley Stevens might not be able to penetrate.
And then I just want to see the general turnout overall, right? You look at a Texas, Texas' primary, you had historical turnout, right, between Crockett and Talarico. Now some of that excitement might be -- has teetered a little bit, but this primary is so close to the general election.
If they -- no matter who comes out, if they can keep it high, it puts point on the board, I think, for Dems.
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, I am very excited about Abdul winning. He's a very nice gentleman. We have been on this -- I have been on this network with him many times. He's a very, very nice guy.
But I believe that campaigning with the DSA -- I know he's not a DSA candidate, but the DSA label, Hasan Piker, his friends there in the DSA, are so bat shit crazy, right, that the Democrats, your party, which should have a very good year, is going to blow it. They're going to blow it because you guys have such nutty candidates.
When you have Bill Maher saying that he he's open to voting for J.D. Vance, and then he would even consider voting for Sarah Palin, when you have James Carville saying, we have got a big tent, but there's some shit that I just can't have in our big tent, right, when you have this internal schism in your party that's so divisive, and it is clearly on the side of the communists right now..
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Wait. Listen, the people in your party that have the energy, that are pushing...
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: David, don't call names if you don't want names called back at your party.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: They want to disassemble the party. They want to get rid of the Congress, the Senate, the presidency.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This has been a contentious show today, and I would like to end it -- end it in a note of harmony.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: Thank you for that.
TODD: And if you look in Washington right now, there is one thing that Democratic and Republican campaign professionals agree on, and everyone agrees on it that I have talked to. That is that Abdul El- Sayed is a much less electable candidate in Michigan than Haley Stevens is, and Democrats can't do anything about it.
URBAN: Brad, don't say that.
TODD: The Democratic professionals here can't do anything about it. He's going to win this nomination anyway.
I'm working on this race for a Republican group. Let me tell you, we can't wait to run against Abdul El-Sayed. It is a Trump state that can easily be held.
(CROSSTALK)
ALLISON: This is reminding me a lot of what your party has just going -- gone through.
TODD: Me too. I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: We've experienced it.
ALLISON: Check this out. Check this out. Privately, I know a lot of Republicans feel like they don't have a home in their current MAGA Republican Party.
BEDINGFIELD: Yes.
ALLISON: And I think you all are scared, because I think that this progressive component of the Democratic Party might take over and be more -- the Democratic Party might be more majority progressive and beat you all.
URBAN: No, that's not going to happen. I don't think that's happening.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Kate, what do you think about El-Sayed, they -- the Republicans saying El-Sayed is more beatable?
[09:55:01]
BEDINGFIELD: Look, I think that it has historically been the case that candidates who advance some of the positions that he's advancing have a hard time with moderate voters, with swing voters, with independent voters...
TODD: That's a very gentle way of saying that, Kate.
BEDINGFIELD: ... the people that you have to win to win a state like Michigan.
So I think the test for him if he -- or the challenge in front of him if he wins this nomination is, can he put forward a case that feels inclusive, that brings some of those Stevens supporters, who have real issues with some of the ways that he's talked about -- has talked about Israel, has talked about Washington in general, can he bring those -- can you bring those voter over?
That is -- that will be a test for him. And I think it is challenging, but it is going to be a -- this is going to be a moment where we're going to see whether some of this energy on the left can work outside of the bluest districts.
BASH: Five seconds.
URBAN: I know you got to do. But don't you think the nationalization of the DSA platform is a huge problem for the Democrats?
TODD: It's the only thing we got going for us right now.
BEDINGFIELD: I do.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Listen, our numbers stink. But your numbers are going to stink worse.
BASH: You do?
BEDINGFIELD: Yes, I will say, absolutely, I do.
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Let's agree. Let's all agree.
BEDINGFIELD: I say yes. You say no.
BASH: No, they disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: OK, we will pick up the conversation exactly there next time.
Thank you for spending your Sunday morning with us.
Fareed Zakaria picks it up next.
