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State of the Union

Interview With Jonathan Haidt; Interview With Former Vice President Mike Pence; Interview With U.S. Education Secretary Linda McMahon. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired August 23, 2026 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST (voice-over): Back to school. Students across America return to class amid questions over A.I. and Trump's push to dismantle the Education Department.

LINDA MCMAHON, U.S. EDUCATION SECRETARY: We're going to bring education back to the states.

BASH: What will it mean for your children? I will ask Education Secretary Linda McMahon and author Jonathan Haidt ahead.

Plus: According to plan? Iran talks stall out, as President Trump insists everything is fine.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the situation is so good.

BASH: Does he have a plan? Former Vice President Mike Pence joins me from Ukraine.

And start your engines. With 72 days to go, Republicans fret over their midterm chances, while the president's focus is often elsewhere.

TRUMP: This will be like no other race ever. It's called a flawless granite.

BASH: Is his party headed into a midterms crash?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, where the state of our union is watching the calendar; 72 days from the midterms, President Trump is under pressure on multiple fronts.

In the Mideast, his 60-day cease-fire with Iran expired with no plans for further talks, as Iran's president says it is in a full-scale war with the U.S. Meanwhile, the U.S.-Canada trade war abruptly reignited Friday night after talks collapsed. Canada's prime minister is vowing to match U.S. tariffs dollar for dollar.

And, in South Carolina, the president faces a key test of his influence in Tuesday's Senate primary as he tries to get Republicans to back his chosen candidate, Darline Graham.

Meanwhile, for millions of Americans, August means the start of the school year. And, as students return to class, parents are grappling with rising costs, questions about technology in the classroom.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Here with me now is Education Secretary Linda McMahon.

Thanks for being here. I appreciate it.

MCMAHON: It's a pleasure. Good to see you again.

BASH: You too.

So, millions of students are heading back to school. And there are a lot of things on parents' minds. One of them is sticker shock. One analysis found that the cost of school supplies rose nearly 8 percent since last year, averaging nearly $175 per child, and the average cost of packing a school lunch is up more than 10 percent compared to last year.

What do you say to parents who are struggling not just with how to manage schooling, but also the economic strains of it?

MCMAHON: Well, I think if you -- if you look at what's going on here throughout the country, really, yes, there are some price upticks, I think, but the general economy is so strong and doing so well.

And I think, as students are headed back to school, our parents should have a lot to look forward to this year, I mean, some of the work that we've been doing over the past year to make sure that parents are more in charge of the education that is going on in their states with their children, to have more access to school records.

They know that we've been working very hard to make sure that children are safer in school relative to -- and this -- this stat will probably blow your mind. It did mine. You know, one in 10 children -- statistics show one in 10 children before they finish high school will have -- be sexually molested in school.

So one of the things that we have really focused and really driving on is looking at what is going on in schools? California schools that actually were -- reported of events of this. We have been investigating it.

BASH: What did that stat come from? Did you do a study at your department?

MCMAHON: Yes, we did a study, and it came from the general education statistics that were afforded to us. And so, when we looked at that, and we really looked at those stats coming out of California, so we said, what is really going on here in these schools?

And what happens is, the teachers don't get -- or sometimes it's faculty. It's faculty and sometimes the staff that's working in the schools. And instead of firing those teachers, those teachers just get sent to another school. And it's not part of their record or anything. So we have really been cracking down on that as well.

BASH: Yes, and just, as you know, parents are struggling with the economy. I know the economic indicators are better, but the affordability crisis is real.

MCMAHON: Sure.

BASH: I want to talk about A.I. in the classroom. You issued guidance last week saying schools should evaluate A.I. tools based on evidence of effectiveness and learning outcomes.

[12:05:10]

The tools haven't been around very long, so there are no real studies, certainly not long-term comprehensive studies. It's not possible since A.I. is so new. And yet Google, for example, expanded its use of A.I., Gemini, in classrooms. OpenAI just introduced ChatGPT Teens.

Are you concerned that students are effectively becoming sort of guinea pigs for chatbots?

MCMAHON: Well, I do think that what we have to make sure we are looking at is how much screen time students have in school, but what is that screen time? We want to make sure that there is effectiveness for students.

And I have had the privilege of going down to Austin, Texas, to the Alpha School, and seeing how A.I. is really working in that -- in that particular school. The first couple of hours every day, students really have on headphones. They're in front of their computers. They're getting their subjects fed to them, with all teachers monitoring what they're doing.

And the beauty of that is that a student almost has a one-on-one tutor. So, the teacher can monitor to see if a child is a bit behind and repeat information for them. If a child is really excelling, then their programs get sped up a bit.

So it's a great tool to have in this particular school. And I think that's what we have to look at with A.I. is, who's going to get it? How long are students going to be exposed to it? What is the outcome?

And you're right. There aren't a lot of metrics available now. And I think that's what we really have to look at as these ed tech companies are introducing these new products to see, what is the effectiveness? Are we seeing better outcomes in schools?

And if we're not, then that -- then they should be pulled out. But I have seen it work so well in the introductions that I've seen. So it's A.I. with guardrails. And as we introduce it, I think, slowly in schools, it can be a very effective tool used properly.

BASH: Do you think that what you saw down in Austin, what you just described, is a proper model?

MCMAHON: Well, it's working wonderfully. And they have been doing it now for a few years.

And then I talked to some of the students who are there. After these -- this two-hour block, then the rest of the day is spent in the application of what they're learning. And so it's incredibly effective for this school, for these students.

And I'm not saying that works everywhere.

BASH: Yes.

MCMAHON: But I think that's what we have to look at.

BASH: And that's what going to be one of my questions, which is, do you believe parents should be able to opt out of using A.I. as a teaching tool if they so choose?

MCMAHON: I certainly think that parents should be very much involved in their children's education. If they're going and they're involved and they are looking to see what is happening with their child, I think it's up to the school to be able to show, OK, this is what we hope to accomplish, this is how we believe this is going to be helpful to your child in particular, and let us show you the outcome.

And if the parent is not seeing that outcome, the parent has every right to go in and say, no, I want something different for my child.

BASH: And how -- are you not concerned at all about the benefits of having the individual sort of tutorial, if you will, via A.I. being outweighed by the human interaction that every student, every person gets from a teacher?

Even if they're just monitoring there, it's not the same as actually learning from a human being. Is that something that you're thinking about as you continue to go around the country and think about these massive changes in policy?

MCMAHON: Sure.

And just let me reemphasize that the Department of Education doesn't control curriculum in the classroom.

BASH: No, I know.

MCMAHON: But what I have seen and what I really want to be able to talk to educators about when I am touring -- and I have been to 40 states now -- I think that human interaction is incredibly important.

So, the use of A.I. is a balance. It is no different than any other new tool that's introduced in the classroom. It's, how effective are the teachers being able to interact with the students and work with them? Nothing should replace that one-on-one with teacher interaction with students, because they need that.

Students need to be able to communicate with each other. And they need to have that interaction. They need to get out on the playground. They need to be doing all of these things that are part of their education. I think we got away from it.

BASH: One of the trends that is happening really globally is limiting, as you mentioned, screen time, and even in some places totally banning phones from school.

How do you -- first of all, do you think that's a good idea?

MCMAHON: I am such a proponent of bell-to-bell no cell in the classroom.

And I think that we have proven that taking cell phones out of the classroom during the school day, kids can concentrate better. They have better communication with each other. They're actually enjoying conversations in the hallways again.

[12:10:04]

And teachers have said to me over and over again this has really been a great thing to take these sort of recreational distractions away from children in the classroom. And now I think we have to think about screen time whether, are we looking at it as recreational screen time or are we looking at it as tutorial screen time?

So there is a right balance to be used in the classroom. And getting rid of the recreational screen time, I'm a proponent for, 100 percent.

BASH: I want to ask you about another move that you are pushing, and you're not the only one, the whole question of whether or not it's the right thing to push all students to college or whether it's better to -- for some people to attend a trade school, like plumbing, electrical work, HVAC, which you can get a job that pays very, very well.

But one of the things that it seems is happening is that there is kind of a push to start students on a track as early as elementary school. Is that too early?

MCMAHON: I don't think so, because I think what we can do is look at students. What are their interests? How do we direct them down a pathway that they're going to have an interest in school?

And I believe that they -- children need a well-rounded education. But I think we have focused too long for just that four -- that path to a four-year university. And, sometimes, we ignore what the actual skill sets of those students are.

And so, as I have looked at middle schools, and I have been to community colleges, and I look at the combinations and how these community colleges are working with middle schools, they have dual credits, middle schools and high schools for skilled trades...

BASH: Right. MCMAHON: ... we are really making great advances to get our skilled work force ready to go.

BASH: Which makes sense. I mean, middle school, that's maybe debatable, but elementary school? Should there just be a focus on basic critical thinking, and perhaps some of the specific training and the path should be later in a child's schooling?

MCMAHON: Well, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

I think you can have some introduction of skilled -- skilled trades in elementary school. But everything is -- you can't direct it from Washington, D.C. How does each school work? What are the needs of that community? How are parents interacting with teachers?

And I think that is so critical as to what community needs. And that's why we really want to return education to the states.

BASH: One last thing I do want to ask you about higher ed, you sent a call-to-action letter to university presidents earlier this month urging them to reform their commitments to fair admissions policies, free speech and tuition affordability, among others.

If a university declines to respond or responds in a way that either disagrees with or is not in alignment with your -- with what you're asking, will the Trump administration again move to withhold federal funds?

MCMAHON: Well, we're certainly going to always monitor what our universities are doing.

But what I have seen is this incredible positive response to the letter, and universities saying, look, let me tell you what we're already doing. We're already doing this relative to making sure that we do have free speech on campus, making sure that there is room for debate, as we have truth-seekers that are on campuses, that we are hiring really with a view of making sure that our teachers are going to continue to foster free speech on their campuses.

But, at the same time, we want to have meritocracy for students who are going into school to make sure they are ready for college.

BASH: And not trying to simply replace what you believe is kind of a one track on one side of the political aisle with another, meaning...

MCMAHON: No, no, no, this should be totally across the aisle.

In fact, the letter that I received or the response from Governor DeSantis in Florida was showing me that at least once a quarter at the Florida schools they have open debates that are required, both sides of the aisle, and to really discuss issues and have the professors involved in all of that.

That's what we're looking for, open debate, open discussion. Yes, the collision of ideas is what really puts education forward. And if we just have one side or the other side, we don't have that collision. And we need it.

BASH: Education Secretary Linda McMahon, thank you so much for being here.

MCMAHON: Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

BASH: Appreciate it. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And you're looking at live images of President Trump arriving at the IndyCar track by the National Mall set up here in Washington. He's going to oversee this race this afternoon as part of the Freedom 250 celebrations. We're going to keep monitoring that.

But up next: He sounded the alarm about social media and smartphones. What about what I was discussing with Secretary McMahon, A.I.? Author and social psychologist Jonathan Haidt is next.

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And, later, Mike Pence will join me from Ukraine.

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BASH: Schools are grappling with an uncertain new reality amid the rise of A.I. in the classroom and its potential impact on students.

My next guest wrote the book on how social media and technology are rewiring children's brains.

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BASH: Here with me now is author and social psychologist Jonathan Haidt.

Thank you so much for being here.

I want to just pick up on my conversation just now with the secretary, because there are a lot of people, you included, who fear A.I.'s impact on children could exceed the detrimental effects even that social media has had on them.

You just heard the secretary say she thinks schools can use A.I. in the classrooms, as long as there are balance -- there is a balance and there is still teacher interaction. What do you think.

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JONATHAN HAIDT, SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I certainly agree with the secretary on the benefits of phone-free schools, but I take a much more negative view, much more wary and skeptical view of A.I.

So let's look at what's happened to our kids. Silicon Valley ran a giant uncontrolled experiment on our kids. They were guinea pigs for social media. There was no testing. It's damaged their mental health. Silicon Valley escaped. Well, now, finally, there are lawsuits.

Then they ran an uncontrolled experiment with educational technology. They put computers and tablets on every kid's desk, and test scores went down. It appears to have damaged education, not helped it. And now they want to run a third experiment on younger kids, giving them all A.I.

Already, we know that A.I. causes a decrement of learning. It's devastating us in higher ed. Students don't learn to think if they can just have A.I. give them the answers. So I'm extremely negative about the role of A.I. in education, especially in elementary school.

And I say, let's not do another uncontrolled experiment. Just keep it out of elementary school. That's where kids need to learn basic skills. Don't have them interacting with chatbots. And, look, in high school, we can experiment, but, for now, let's keep it out of elementary schools.

BASH: And you kind of mentioned this, but I want you to talk a little bit more about, since you have done so much work on the effect of social media on children and teens especially, how you see A.I. -- and I know that you have said this many times, but if you could just expand on it -- as even more, from your perspective, dangerous and scary.

HAIDT: Well, A.I. is already what drives social media. That's what makes it so addictive. That's been going on for 10 or 15 years.

Now we're talking about A.I. not just driving the stimulus, but actually being an interaction partner. Where social media took over kids' relationships and made it -- made them much worse, much more performative, much more distant, A.I. is saying, let's replace the other kid entirely. Just talk to me.

We know that adults are falling in love with chatbots. We know that chatbot conversations drive some into psychosis, into insanity. And so I don't see why we would be having students interact with chatbots until we have years of evidence that it's safe. What's the big rush to push it in?

So I'm horrified that all these companies are just pushing it into our kids' lives. We can't get away from it, and there's no evidence that it's helpful.

BASH: Yes, I mean, as I mentioned to the secretary, we have Gemini at -- Google's A.I. program going into some schools.

HAIDT: Yes.

BASH: And now we have ChatGPT Teens.

You did mention this. There's a major case in California, as Meta is on trial for allegedly designing its platforms to deliberately addict kids to social media. And it's being described as social media's big tobacco moment, not just because of the alleged harm to kids, but because the core allegation is that Meta knew more than it admitted publicly and allegedly lied about.

States could seek as much as $1.4 trillion in damages, roughly the market value of the entire company. What do you think happens if Meta loses? Do you think it could dramatically change the way social media operates?

HAIDT: Yes, I think it would change.

Let's look at how social media evolved. In 1996, Congress gave social media companies a free pass. They said, no matter what you show to kids, no matter what you do, no one can sue you. And so, for decades, nobody could sue them.

If you have an industry that can make huge amounts of money by exploiting children, and you guarantee them protection from lawsuits, what do you expect to happen? And so they became predatory. They did enormous damage to an entire generation around the world. The damages, I think, are in the trillions, if you consider that I believe that it's diminished the cognitive and emotional development of most young people.

So the damages are enormous. And, finally, finally, since Congress never held them accountable, the courts are saying, you know what, all these millions of victims, they actually do get to sue you. And so, when -- now that we have accountability and it's going to run into the trillions, I believe, yes, they're going to have to change their behavior.

BASH: Jonathan Haidt, thank you so much for being here. I hope to get to talk to you soon as kids really do go back to school and as A.I. is in these schools, and we start to see real time the effects. Appreciate everything that you do.

HAIDT: Thank you so much, Dana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And up next: Why are the United States and Canada locked in a trade war again?

President Trump's former Vice President Mike Pence will be here on that and more.

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is vowing a response after a deadly Russian double-tap strike killed at least 16 people and wounded more than 100 others just days after major strikes on the capital city of Kyiv.

Here with me now from Ukraine is former Vice President Mike Pence.

Thank you so much for being here.

You are in Kyiv. We can see the beautiful shot there and hear the bells. And I know that you went to the National Prayer Breakfast this morning.

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you, Dana. Thanks for having me on.

BASH: Thank you.

You went to this breakfast to mark 35 years since the end of the Cold War. Of course, you're also there amid heavy Russian attacks, even in recent days. You met with President Zelenskyy. What did he tell you about this moment for Ukraine and what they still need?

PENCE: Well, to be gathered and have the chance to address the National Prayer Breakfast, as the 35th anniversary of the fall of the Soviet Union and Ukraine's independence, it was a great privilege for me.

Thousands of people gathered from across Ukraine and, frankly, around the world. And the sense you have of the deep resolve, not only of the leadership from President Zelenskyy on down, but rank-and-file military, everyday Ukrainians, is palpable.

Look, Ukraine is winning this war; 4.5 years after that brutal and unprovoked invasion by Russia, Ukraine's military on the front lines has fought Russia to a stalemate. And by essentially reinventing drone warfare, they have taken the fight directly into the heart of Russia. They have sunk ships in the Black Sea.

It's really been extraordinary. They have challenges with ballistic missiles that President Zelenskyy and I talked about, Dana. But the incredible determination of these people fighting on what I believe is just the latest front line of freedom, of the battle between liberty and tyranny, the battle between good and evil, it's deeply inspiring to be here.

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BASH: Well, you mentioned the missiles, that they have effectively run out of U.S.-made Patriot missiles...

PENCE: Yes.

BASH: ... which is their really only defense, aside from those drones, against Russian missile strikes.

The shortage is being driven by the Iran war. Sources tell CNN the U.S. has burned through roughly half of its Patriot missile supply defending against Iranian attacks. Are Ukrainians paying the price for the president's war with Iran?

PENCE: Well, I don't see it that way, and I don't think -- I don't think the Ukrainians do either. I mean, as I talked to President Zelenskyy, he made it very clear that

they have the ability to deal with the drone warfare. On some occasions, Russia has sent thousands of drones. They're able to take those down. But, recently -- and I think it's an act of desperation -- Vladimir Putin has begun to fire those high-arc ballistic missiles into Ukraine.

And without a sufficient amount of either Patriot or THAAD anti- ballistic missile systems, they essentially are going to be deeply vulnerable, particularly in the winter months.

One of the things President Zelenskyy made clear to me is that he fully expects that, as winter approaches sooner than later, that Putin will start to strike not just children's school and a hospital, as he did this week, not just a shopping mall, taking more than a dozen lives, but that he will start to strike that energy infrastructure to try and essentially impose the deep winter cold on the people of Ukraine.

So, President Zelenskyy asked. He said, we're looking just for 5 percent of your remaining Patriot inventory, and he believes that would get them through the winter months.

But I also believe that there may be an opportunity for other allies. South Korea has interceptors that are very sophisticated. And with some of the back-and-forth between the president and South Korea this week, it -- this might be an opportunity for President Lee to step forward, make those interceptors available to the United States to deploy either in the Middle East or here in Ukraine or to European allies who could do the same.

So I -- it really is an extraordinary time in the life of this country's fight for 4.5 years. And -- but I want to say to your -- I want to say to your viewers around the world, to be on the ground here after the devastating attacks of this last week by Russia, and seeing the resolve and the determination, that Ukraine is winning this war.

And if we give them what they need, they're going to secure their sovereignty and a peaceful and just future. I just know it with all my heart.

BASH: President Trump, turning to Iran, says the situation in Iran is so good.

But six months into a war that he said would last about six weeks, he's stuck in the stalemate. His 60-day cease-fire expired, no signs of a peace deal or plans for further talks. And, this morning, Iran's president says that it is in a full-scale war with the U.S.

If you were still Donald Trump's vice president, what would you advise -- advise him to do right now?

PENCE: Well, first, I just want to reiterate I think President Trump did exactly the right thing, taking the fight for the first time directly to the mullahs in Tehran last year and again this year in Operation Epic Fury. Our military did a brilliant job. The USS Abraham Lincoln is steaming

home. I know some folks that were flying aircraft off that ship. They took down 13,000 sites. But then they stopped, Dana, as you suggest. We started into a period of cease-fires. We negotiated the six 60-day MOU, which turned out to be for naught.

And I think, as the president announced strong new D-Day-style economic sanctions, it's going to be absolutely imperative that we keep the pressure on and that we keep the military assets in the region to be able to take the action that I believe is going to be inevitable.

Look, you don't make peace with your enemy. You make peace with your defeated enemy. And the kind of rhetoric you heard from the president of Iran this morning proves that the Iranians don't yet understand that they have been defeated, despite the fact that they have been.

But I think it's going to be essential that we keep the pressure on, keep the military assets in the region, because I think the time is going to come sooner, rather than later, when the president and our ally Israel are going to have to go in and finish the job.

[12:35:07]

BASH: I want to ask you about something a little closer to home in the U.S., and that is the new renewed trade war between Canada and the U.S., going dollar for dollar on 50 percent tariffs. Trade talks collapsed on Friday night.

The Canadian prime minister blamed unfair last-minute demands by the U.S., saying the administration asked too much and offered too little, and that Canada is effectively at war with the U.S. on trade.

Does that help Americans right now?

PENCE: Look, we hear about the issue of affordability right now.

And, as you know, I have taken a firm position since liberation day tariffs that fortunately the Supreme Court turned over that American businesses and American consumers pay American tariffs. And I think the last thing we need right now, as our economy is getting back on its feet, is a trade war with Canada.

But, yes, my hope is -- I was in on all the negotiations for the USMCA. I know the tough line President Trump draws. It usually is accompanied with short-term action and hot rhetoric. We're getting the same from the Canadians.

But my hope is, for the sake of American families and for the sake of the American economy, that what we're looking at here is negotiation and not confrontation in a trade war. And that -- that's how I would advise the president. Drive a hard bargain, but let's pursue free trade with free nations, most especially our trading partners to the north.

BASH: Quickly, before I let you go, I do want to ask about comments by Julia Curlee, former CIA officer who served as your daily briefer during the first Trump term. She's a trans woman.

I spoke to her earlier this week, and she said, despite your different views, you treated her with -- quote -- "great dignity." And a big moment for her in her life was you telling her mother that you must be very proud of your daughter.

What was your reaction to hearing her say that?

PENCE: You know, I haven't -- I haven't read the article. I appreciate the kind words.

But you and I have known each other a long time, Dana. And my conservative values are fairly well-known, but maybe some people didn't quite know that among our Christian values is, my wife and I believe in treating others the way that we'd like to be treated, with decency and respect.

And I was heartened to hear Julia reflect that that was the experience that took place in our office.

BASH: Former Vice President Mike Pence from Ukraine, which looks beautiful now, but obviously belies what's what's really going on there, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us.

PENCE: Thank you, Dana. Good to be with you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And President Trump, you see there, in the Beast taking a lap around the Freedom 250 IndyCar track on the streets of Washington, D.C., where we are.

My panel is back after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:43:50]

(CHEERING)

BASH: You're looking at the Beast.

President Trump is in the Beast down at the National Mall this afternoon ahead of the Freedom 250 IndyCar race. That's happening later today. In a short while, he's going to wave the green flag on what he's declaring one of the most unforgettable racing events the world has ever seen.

My panel is with me to discuss, including our friend Scott Jennings.

Before we get started, I will just make clear that our viewers should know that you're reportedly being considered for the role of White House press secretary.

So, as we wait for that decision, let's talk about all the things happening in politics this week. Let's actually start with kind of this moment that's happening on the

Mall right now. It's fun. I'm not going to ask you the specifics about racing, because I don't know them, so I don't expect anybody else to. But as it fits into...

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He knows racing.

BASH: Oh, he knows racing.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: All right, you can jump in.

But as it pertains to the broader question of where the American people, where the electorate is right now, how they feel about their lives, about affordability and how they feel about the president, according to poll after poll, not really paying attention to the things that they need him to pay attention to.

GOLDBERG: So I think -- I'm not usually in the business of giving Democrats advice. I would pick from among the broad smorgasbord of other stories to say Trump is distracted and not paying attention to the concerns of the American people on affordability and yadda, yadda, yadda, and not pick on this one, because it is kind of cool.

And I think there are a lot of normal Americans who think it's kind of cool, and just leave it alone, because I -- you can complain about it. I can complain about it because of what it's done to traffic. I'm the only one here who actually lives -- has to live with the consequences of it.

BASH: No, I do too.

GOLDBERG: Yes. But, like, in terms of what affects normal Americans outside of the Beltway, there are just much better things. Talk about the ballroom. Talk about a bunch of other stuff. I wouldn't pick up on this.

BASH: Maria?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that's right. And mostly Democrats are doing that. You're right, it is fun. My son was there yesterday. He loved it.

[12:45:00]

But when you look at what Americans are going through, and they can't make ends meet, Democrats are talking about and they should continue to talk about not just the ballroom, but the fact that this president is selling the White House to the highest bidder.

He's spending billions of dollars on a war in Iran that no one wanted and no one needed. He is not focused on inflation. He is not focused on rising prices, tariffs that has made those rises -- those prices explode. The cruel and chaotic, incompetent enforcement of immigration law has been horrific around the country, has also gone to making prices rise.

All of those things are the things that Democrats are going to continue to focus on, have focused on, and I think have helped them in terms of where they are in the midterm elections.

BASH: Scott?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I opened up my social media algorithm this morning, Maria, to find that the principal spokesperson for the Democratic Party, Hasan Piker, was leading a rally last night, reading a rally celebrate...

CARDONA: Oh, come on, Scott. You know that's not true.

JENNINGS: ... to celebrate the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

CARDONA: You know that's not true.

JENNINGS: So, I love the recitation of the talking points. All of the energy in your party is behind a bunch of violent socialists who have taken over the messaging operation of the Democratic Party.

And, look, midterms are historically good for the party out of power. I wonder if Democrats are squandering their opportunity because they have outsourced all of their energy and messaging to people who want to fundamentally rip out the United States of America root and branch.

CARDONA: That message reeks of desperation on behalf of Republicans.

JENNINGS: Pick it up. Take a look at it. Are you defending it? Defend it. Defend it.

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONA: The midterm elections are just completely not going to be in their favor.

JENNINGS: Defend it. She won't.

CARDONA: Because you look at the generic ballot, Democrats are ahead. You look at where Americans think which party is going to handle the economy better, Democrats are winning on that.

And, Scott, I appreciate that you're trying to smear every single Democrat with some of the craziness that you're talking about.

JENNINGS: I'm not smearing them. They're smearing themselves by keeping these violent thugs around.

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONA: It's just not true. And the American people aren't buying it.

JENNINGS: They're smearing themselves, Maria, by keeping people like this around.

CARDONA: Keep saying it. The American people aren't buying it.

BASH: Jamal.

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

The credit card delinquencies are going up in America. Personal savings are going down in America. People are struggling through this moment because they're using what they have to pay for gas prices and the grocery store.

And then there's something bigger I think I hear from Americans. It's a level of anxiousness. And I think this is -- since Scott and your team, the MAGA folks, want to move people away from the bigger idea of -- when Ronald Reagan was in the office, he talked about America as a shining city on the Hill.

The MAGA crowd wants to erect these walls that are blocking out the light of that city, right? They're keeping us from being able to see the things that were special about America, the inspirational part of America. We're finding out that students, international students, are down 24 percent. Graduate students and others in the bachelor level are down 20 percent from coming to America.

People are nervous about coming here. I think that this is a bigger challenge for the country, and I think the Republicans need to get in the game about making this country a place where people want to get into, not trying to keep everybody away from it.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Jonah, go ahead.

GOLDBERG: Go ahead.

BASH: No, please.

GOLDBERG: No, I was just going to say, if I can split the difference here on this disagreement, I think the White House -- you're absolutely right. The White House wants to make this -- as White Houses always do, want to make it a choice, rather than a referendum on Trump.

And I don't think -- I think it's fair to say the American people broadly aren't buying into that. But I think Scott's right that maybe Michigan voters are buying into that.

JENNINGS: Yes.

GOLDBERG: Like, I mean, Abdul El-Sayed was a bad choice, in the same way that Ken Paxton was a bad choice for Republicans.

You have -- we have -- both parties have real whack job problems, and the Democrats, who really need every seat they can because of where the map is in these midterms, I think some of these candidates are like Christine O'Donnell, the "I'm not a witch' candidate. They're given up on more easily won races because of the role of the DSA crowd in certain races.

BASH: Do you agree that your party has, quoting our friend Jonah here, a whack job problem too?

JENNINGS: Well, I think candidates have different degrees of talent levels.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: I don't agree...

BASH: Maybe the State Department is where you...

(CROSSTALK)

GOLDBERG: Yes.

JENNINGS: I don't agree that Ken Paxton is trying to bring about the end of Western civilization like Abdul El-Sayed supporters are up in Michigan. I don't agree with that.

But do I think -- do I think both parties are going to have to spend heavily in states where maybe they didn't want to? Absolutely. But this issue in Michigan is a real issue.

GOLDBERG: Yes.

JENNINGS: Maria, the Democrat attorney general of Michigan can't even go to your party's nominating convention because she fears for her safety from Abdul El-Sayed's supporters. Do you have any response to that? I mean, that's not me -- that's not me smearing your party. That's your own party crying out for safety from their own people.

BASH: You go. And then I want to ask a Democrat from Michigan.

(LAUGHTER)

CARDONA: And -- yes, and I will say he has more to say about this, but what I will say is, again, Scott, that messaging is because Republicans understand how much trouble they are in...

JENNINGS: Sorry, Dana, Maria doesn't care about your safety. Sorry, Dana.

CARDONA: ... writ large -- writ large into the midterm elections. And you are trying to smear one situation in terms of that is what the whole party represents.

[12:50:09]

And, again, the American people aren't buying it.

SIMMONS: Yes, there are a couple of different problems that are happening in America right now. We have got to deal with the increasing amount of antisemitism that's happening in one part of the country and the increasing amount of Islamophobia that's happening in the other part of the country.

And the truth is, all the politicians who want those things to go away have to stand up and say that, regardless of whether or not they're their friends who are saying it. And I got to say, I don't hear anything on the right of people pushing back against the level of ethnic and religious invocation that's happening.

You got a lot of things you can go after Abdul El-Sayed about. I think going after his religion should not be one of them.

JENNINGS: It's not going after his religion. It's going after his association...

(CROSSTALK)

SIMMONS: You haven't seen the reports? You haven't seen the reports of people talking about...

JENNINGS: Let me respond. You asked me. Let me respond.

(CROSSTALK)

SIMMONS: ... including Republicans, who are talking about his religion.

JENNINGS: It's going after his association with people who say -- quote -- "I want to wipe my A-S-S with the U.S. Constitution" and so on and so forth. That has nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with religion.

SIMMONS: Laura Loomer calls him a jihadist.

BASH: Yes.

SIMMONS: There's no evidence at all that that is anything that this man believes in.

JENNINGS: Well, if you're OK with it, that's fine.

BASH: OK. OK, we're going to leave it there on that very optimistic note.

When we come back, the $40 trillion question facing America.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:55:58]

BASH: Can you count to 40 trillion? That's a four followed by 13 zeros.

And, as of this week, it's the country's collective IOU. America's national debt is now $40 trillion. That's greater than the economies of China, Germany, Japan, and the United Kingdom, plus India, combined. If you converted that to $1 bills, the stack would stretch to the moon and back nearly six times.

What does it mean for you? Well, it means potentially higher borrowing costs if you're looking to buy a home or a car or starting a business, and more of your tax dollars, nearly a trillion dollars a year, going to interest payments, instead of services that benefit you.

A decade ago, candidate Trump said he would eliminate the debt within eight years. It's actually doubled. But this milestone is a bipartisan failure, as leaders in both parties have kicked the can down the road, rather than make the hard choices needed to keep the debt under control. When will they finally wake up? Well, that's the $40 trillion question.

Thank you for spending your Sunday morning with us.

The news continues next.