Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Saturday Night

Al Qaeda Claims Responsibility for Madrid Attack; Two Pittsburgh Firefighters Killed in the Line of Duty

Aired March 13, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: From the CNN Global Headquarters in Atlanta, this is CNN SATURDAY NIGHT.
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Brent Sadler in Madrid, where the strongest indications yet have surfaced that the al Qaeda terror network may have been behind Thursday's deadly bomb blast that killed 200 people using the rail network.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Miguel Marquez live in Fresno, California. Nine dead, a father, a husband charged with the murders. Polygamists, possible cults, I'll have the details.

LIN: Thanks, Miguel.

15 years ago, Al Haynes saved the lives of nearly 200 people. Now survivors of this unforgettable flight are trying to save his daughter's life. These stories and a lot more next on CNN SATURDAY NIGHT.

Thanks for spending your Saturday night with us. Up front tonight, killed in the line of duty. Firefighters in Pittsburgh are mourning after two of their own die while trying to save a city landmark. A live report coming up.

Also, a Southwest sheriff takes a controversial step to scare straight young criminals. And your fired. I'm going to be talking with Heidi Bessler, the latest apprentice to be fired by Donald Trump. What she has to say about the billionaire may surprise you.

But up first tonight, a break in the horrific terrorist attacks in Spain. A tape surfaced just hours ago, claiming al Qaeda was behind Thursday's deadly train bombings. Five people are under arrest. Three Moroccans and two Indians were captured Saturday and are now being questioned.

As the investigation intensifies, angry Spaniards are lashing out, accusing the government of hiding evidence. That could have major implications for Sunday's elections.

Let's turn to CNN's Brent Sadler, live in Madrid, with the latest on the investigation and the reaction.

Brent, tell us more about what prompted so many people to hit the streets today? SADLER: Well, Carol these were dramatic hours during the night time here, right in the center of Madrid. And many, many thousands of people turned out onto the streets, blocking many roads leading to the area outside the headquarters of the ruling popular party.

And what brought these people out in their droves was a total dissatisfaction of what they claim was attempt by the popular party, by the government of the day to really manipulate, for political reasons, the way evidence was coming out of the inquiry as to who was behind Thursday's deadly bomb blast.

Let's not forget that a year ago, up to 90 percent of the Spanish people were against the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. And there was concern among sectors of the ruling party that there could have perhaps have been a voter backlash at the polls Sunday. And that by manipulating when information came out, it could work in favor of the ruling party.

So thousands of them came out. They were very noisy. They were controlled by riot police, but there was no violence -- Carol?

LIN: So any sense yet on how this is going to affect the parliamentary elections in Spain?

SADLER: Well, I think what we've heard in these announcements, three press conferences from the interior minister over the hours that these demonstrations were at their peak, and significant announcements they were indeed. The arrest of five people, three Moroccans, two Indians, they're under official arrest status. But two others, Indians of Spanish origin, they were picked up for questioning, but are not officially under arrest. So a total of seven people there.

And they were picked up, the five that have been arrested, picked up after authorities say they went through a phone call from a mobile telephone that was found inside an unexploded device. The phone call was checked out. And these people were traced from calls apparently made on that phone. So interesting detail there in terms of the inquiry.

And then subsequently, information about this videotape, a videotape that was discovered in a mosque in Madrid after an anonymous phone call had been made to a television station, telling the police they should go and pick it up because it contained an al Qaeda claim -- Carol?

LIN: All right, thank you very much, Brent Sadler with the latest and a lot to tell from Madrid.

All right, Jim Walsh researches and writes about terrorism at Harvard University. Jim joins us now from San Francisco.

Jim, let me talk to you a little bit more about this videotape. Our reporters got a transcript from the interior ministry of the videotape. Apparently a man by the name of Abu Dujan al Afghani (ph), claiming to be the spokesperson for the military arm of al Qaeda, made this series of announcements about the threat of further attacks in the western world. What do you know about this man? Have you ever heard of him? Does he sound legitimate to you?

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, I think the key factor here for viewers to pay attention to is the fact that the interior ministry released the tape. You'll remember that we had an earlier claim of responsibility that was sent into an Arabic newspaper. And that was widely discounted because the same group that had claimed responsibility there had also claimed responsibility for the blackout in New York.

But here we have the interior ministry, which previously had really pinned this on ETA. I think in some ways, they were hoping it was ETA. And now they have not only made these arrests, but they have released a tape. And I think that's highly suggestive that al Qaeda or an Islamist group may be responsible.

LIN: But does the name sound familiar to you?

WALSH: Well, not to me. I -- it doesn't ring a bell with me, but I think that they -- the state -- the interior ministry would not be releasing the tape if they thought that there was some chance that it was plagiarized, fake...

LIN: Right.

WALSH: ...or wasn't of significance.

LIN: Right.

WALSH: The fact that they did release it means that they think it's part of the evidence that suggests that al Qaeda...

LIN: Right.

WALSH: ...or an Islamist group may be responsible.

LIN: But interesting because yes, the ministry released the tape, but other western intelligence services are starting to discount it. Of course, everybody is doing their own investigations, but perhaps something a little more sinister in some of its claims.

I mean, if it is al Qaeda, what does it tell you about what al Qaeda is up to, given the nature of this attack on the trains?

WALSH: Well, Carol, I think you're right to point out the fact that just because we have arrests, and just because we have a tape, doesn't mean that al Qaeda is responsible. This has been one of the more perplexing cases that we've had. We've had circumstantial evidence both for ETA and for al Qaeda.

But to get to your question, if it is al Qaeda, I think it's of major significance. I think it in some ways presents evidence in support of a recent CIA finding that al Qaeda has more. It's changed from a big organization into a movement. That's what CIA Director Tenet said. It's become a movement with lots of members. And if that's the case, that is a worrisome development. Director Tenet mentioned polling numbers that shows that the U.S. is very unpopular in the Muslim world, and that this has given al Qaeda an opportunity to sell that ideology to anti-American, anti- western ideology to more and more people. That is not good news.

LIN: No, it's not. Jim, so what is the message here? I mean, are westerners more at risk now than they were before 9/11?

WALSH: Well, I certainly think that if you look over the record of the past year, we had never had an attack in Saudi Arabia of any significance. We've had an attack an Saudi Arabia. We hadn't had attacks in Morocco. There were attacks in Morocco. And of course, Morocco is a stone's throw from Spain, which was a major ally of the U.S. during the Iraq War.

So I think al Qaeda, despite its weaknesses, despite our successes, has shown the ability to strike in a variety of places in unexpected ways. And again, that is not welcome. If there are a lot of folks who are mad at the U.S., and this is somehow helping al Qaeda local, little al Qaedas to grow, then our problem is certainly much more complicated.

LIN: All right, well it's still under investigation, but the message in this videotape was eerie that there would be further attacks against supporters of the United States. Obviously Spain, one of the bigger supporters, the government itself...

WALSH: Absolutely.

LIN: ...of the U.S. war, the Gulf War in -- against Saddam Hussein this time around. Thank you very much, Jim...

WALSH: Thank you, Carol.

LIN: ...Jim Walsh.

Well, dozens of Spaniards did hold a vigil at the United Nations today, in a show of solidarity with Spain. Mourners held a moment of silence at 1:00 to coincide with a similar observance in Spain. Many wore black ribbons. Others held banners calling for an end to terrorism and violence.

Now as the story unfolds in Madrid, the U.S. military announces its plans to step up a search, the search for al Qaeda's leader Osama bin Laden. Operation Mountain Storm will take U.S. troops into Afghanistan's lawless southeastern border region near Pakistan in the days and weeks ahead. However, military officials say they don't expect to increase U.S. forces beyond the 11,000 already in Afghanistan. Officials were talking about a renewed spring offensive for the past few weeks.

Well, ever since the 9/11 attacks, the city of New York has been on a long road to recovery. It's a path the people of Madrid have just started upon. Well, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg appeared today on CNN's "CAPITAL GANG." And he says Madrid, like New York, must carry on. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: I think it's the price you pay for standing up for democracy, that you will be a target if it turns out to be al Qaeda. And I don't know any more than anybody else whether it will be or not.

The truth of the matter is, it's a dangerous world, but the average person has a lot more chance of being struck by lightning than terrorism. And the one thing I know for sure, the way to let the terrorists win is to let them alter our lifestyle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right, well, Mayor Bloomberg says the world must stand up to terrorists because if it doesn't, freedom will be lost.

While the world trains its sights on who's responsible in Madrid, the war in Iraq marches on with another deadly day for U.S. troops. Two soldiers were killed and five others wounded Saturday at a road side bombing as they patrolled Tikrit.

U.S. officials have blamed outside terrorists for many of the attacks on U.S. troops. To help stop them, U.S. civilian administrator Paul Bremer says the coalition will bolster security along Iraq's borders. The coalition plans to double the number of security people on the borders and start up a system to ID everyone entering and leaving Iraq.

Right now, we want to move on to California. Police are planning to file formal charges in a horrific murder investigation. Nine people, seven of them children, were found dead, stacked on top of each other at a home yesterday in Fresno. More sordid details surfaced today.

And with that, we're going to go to CNN's Miguel Marquez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JERRY DYER, FRESNO POLICE CHIEF: This is obviously the worst mass murder case that we have had in the history of our city.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The worst mass murder police say caused by this man, Marcus Wesson. In response to a reporter asking if he was the killer, Wesson only expressed love.

MARCUS WESSON, MURDER SUSPECT: I love you.

MARQUEZ: Fresno's police chief says the murder scene was so grisly, police officers cried as the bodies of the children were bagged. Among the nine dead, Wesson's children and the grandchildren he fathered with his own daughters.

DYER: Our investigation has revealed, at least we've been told, that suspect Wesson is the father of two of his grandchildren, which means that there was a sexual relationship that occurred between he and perhaps two of his daughters.

MARQUEZ: Police believe Wesson had a polygamist relationship with several of the women he lived with. Police are also investigating the possibility that Wesson had a cult-like following by his family. Chief Dyer also says there are so many dead, that almost his entire department is involved in the case.

DYER: In fact, this single incident has quadrupled the murder rate in our city in one night.

MARQUEZ: Frank Muno has known Wesson for several years. He claims the relationship between Wesson and the women was less than normal.

FRANK MUNO, WESSON BUSINESS ASSOCIATE: It was an odd relationship between them and -- for him and the women. He had complete control. They were the ones working and bringing in money. And he would tell them where -- how to spend it, where to transfer funds. And they just fell in line.

MARQUEZ: And as the day wore on, people who didn't even know the victims stopped by to pay their respects, a clear sign of how the murders have shaken even the city's youngest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was kind of sad that those kids had to die.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: Now at this point, Wesson has been booked on nine counts of murder. Police say that other charges are possible. He's expected to be arraigned early next week -- Carol?

LIN: All right, thank you very much, Miguel Marquez reporting live in Fresno.

Now Fresno police, while they had that news conference this afternoon, and that is where Police Chief Jerry Dyer graphically and compassionately shared what this killing rampage has done to his investigators and the city. Well, we invite Chief Jerry Dyer to join us tonight.

Chief Dyer, thank you very much for being with us. I know it's been a very long and a very difficult day for you and your officers.

DYER: Well, thank you for having me on the show.

LIN: Let me ask you this. And it's hard to know even where to start with a crime like this. You talked briefly about your officers being so affected that some of them are having to seek counseling. What is it that they saw inside that home? These are veteran officers you're talking about.

DYER: Just the visual display of the nine victims that were in there. I can't talk about the manner in which the deaths occurred, but just seeing those individuals that were in that room, the way that they were positioned on top of each other. The fact that there were so many children involved and several infants is something that I'm sure is always going to be in the mind of those officers that were inside.

LIN: You said earlier today that the way the bodies were positioned and how they were piled seemed to indicate to you that there was some sort of ritual going on. What did it look like was going to happen next with those bodies?

DYER: We don't know what the plan was for suspect Wesson with the bodies. But what we do know that there was nine victims in a relatively small room. Perhaps that was the reason why they were positioned on top of each other, because of a lack of space.

But I did comment earlier that the -- we aren't making reference to the cause of the death, but the apparent death appears to be very consistent amongst each of the victims and unique, although that's yet to be corroborated by the coroner's office.

LIN: Did it look like there was a struggle inside? Or did it look like they might have been willing victims?

DYER: In terms of the manner in which they killed, I can't discuss. I can't really get into whether or not there was any apparent struggle, physical evidence, but through the course of the investigation, we will be able to sort out some of those details.

LIN: You also say that Marcus Wesson is cooperating. In what way?

DYER: Well, first off, when he -- initially after he ran into the bedroom and locked himself inside, that was his apparent type of resistance. But ultimately when he came outside, he was very cooperative with officers when they took him into custody. When he was handcuffed, he offered up no resistance.

And then subsequent to that, after bringing him to headquarters, he's been very cooperative and willing to talk with the investigators.

And so, he's demonstrated that he is willing to cooperate. He is very articulate. Appears to be very calm and very intelligent.

LIN: So he doesn't seem crazy to you? He doesn't seem deranged in any way?

DYER: You know, I'm not a psychologist, so I obviously couldn't tell you whether or not he's got some mental disorder, but...

LIN: I mean what...

DYER: ...he appears to be...

LIN: ...could his motive be?

DYER: Well, he appears to be in the right state of mind. We're going to search out what that motive might be. It's difficult to say. There's been a lot of discussion about his belief system, the belief system of the family, whether or not there is a cult or a sect. We're trying to look into all of those avenues and truly try to determine what the motive was. Was it about child custody dispute? Or was it beyond that? Those are things we're going to have to sort out.

LIN: You know, I think Chief Dyer, with a crime like those, those are, of course, legal questions, but I know they can be very personal questions in a small community like Fresno. And I hope you find those answers. Thank you very much for joining us.

DYER: Well, thank you.

LIN: All right, across the country, a fire has devastated a community in Pittsburgh. Two firefighters were killed today and more than two dozen injured while battling a fire at an historic church. The fire left Ebenezer Baptist Church in ruins. You are looking at a live picture, courtesy of our affiliate WTAE.

Reporter Meghan Jones watched the disaster unfold.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MEGHAN JONES, WTAE NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the moment the walls came down, it was immediately apparent that people had been hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of a sudden, the side of the building just came -- started coming down. We started yelling for the firefighters to get out the way and they started looking up and the bricks just fell down on them.

JONES: Paramedics and firefighters scrambled to help those injured, as more pieces came down. Paramedics carried injured firefighters away from the building, fearing more of the building would fall.

J.T. THOMAS, WITNESS: It was devastating and people reacting to it, because quite a few people were here on the premises, you know, watching it.

JONES: So many people, many of them church members, saw their church on fire, then witnessed the horrible crash. Then came news that two firefighters were missing inside the building, presumably buried under the rubble. Rescue crews asked parishioners for help in finding out how to get them out.

ROGER TRAVIS, CHURCH MEMBER: What it is, it's part of a vestibule entrance, where there is a stairwell that goes downstairs to the basement where we used to have Sunday school. In all probability, the steps are gone. So if the steps are gone, then they're going to have to lift them up out of there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right, that was Meghan Jones, reporting from our affiliate WTAE. Meghan also tells us that while they were trying to figure out a way to save the building, unfortunately no way to save that historic church. It is going to have to be torn down.

Well, a race for the White House is pretty -- well, it's rarely pretty. Well, now this year's Democratic frontrunner claims he wants to do something about it. After the break, the challenge put forth by John Kerry to the president and the Republican response.

And they may be teens, but they are not too young for the chain gang. Stick around to find out where this controversial punishment is being handed out.

Plus...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We needed to get the work done. And I just went crazy on her, because she's crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Oh, tough. The latest apprentice cast-off sounds off about the former opponent. And that brings us to tonight's last call question. Who do you think Donald should pick as his apprentice? Give us a call at 1-800-807-2620. CNN SATURDAY NIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Things got a little heated this week in the race for the White House. First the likely Democratic nominee, John Kerry, called the people attacking him the "most crooked, lying group of people he'd ever seen."

Well, the Bush campaign fired back, calling Kerry nothing more than an angry liberal. So will the two sides make nice? Well, as White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports, don't bet on it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After weeks of both sides swinging, President Bush's opponent seemingly offered an olive branch.

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President Bush and I can do better. And America deserves better.

MALVEAUX: A call to drop the negative campaigning and a challenge to the president.

KERRY: I am asking George Bush to agree to a series of monthly debates, starting this spring, to talk about the real issues in our country.

MALVEAUX: While Mr. Bush has already committed to three debates, his campaign is still smarting from Senator Kerry's offhanded comment...

KERRY: These guys are the most crooked...

MALVEAUX: A Bush campaign spokesman said after calling Republicans crooks and liars, John Kerry is now calling for a civil debate on the issues. Senator Kerry should finish the debate with himself, before he starts trying to explain his positions to the voters.

Earlier in the day, in dueling radio addresses, the president and Democrats faced off over the economy. Mr. Bush said his critics' plan would kill jobs.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They want to increase federal taxes. Yet punishing families and small businesses is not a job creation strategy.

MALVEAUX: Senator Kerry has said he would not raise taxes, but only roll back the tax cut for America's most wealthy. Liberal icon Senator Ted Kennedy fired back.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Job creation in America is in the basement.

MALVEAUX: Some political observers say the early hostilities between the Bush/Kerry camps will make it harder to make nice later.

KEN RUDIN, POLITICAL ANALYST: With a 24-hour cycle between cable TV and the Internet, you have attacks followed by attacks, followed by rebuttals, followed by rebuttal to that, too. So it's -- not only is it uglier than ever, but it starts earlier than ever. And it's more -- I think it's more intense than ever.

MALVEAUX: Both sides acknowledge the negative campaigning could backfire. So Senator Kerry offered this scenario.

KERRY: Who knows? Maybe it's possible that when it's all over, George Bush and I will be able to sit down together at a Red Sox/Rangers game and shake hands as friends. I'll tell you this. That would be an election that Americans would win in the end.

MALVEAUX (on camera): But considering the way things have been going lately, that's not likely.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Americans go to the polls in November, but the Russians are voting this weekend. That leads off our world roundup. There's little opposition to President Vladimir Putin's re-election, but that doesn't mean it's a slam dunk because Putin has so much support, some officials are worried about voter turnout. At least 50 percent turnout is needed for the election to be valid.

The U.N.'s nuclear watch dog is slamming Iran for hiding its nuclear activities, adopting a resolution to that effect. But the International Atomic Energy Agency complimented the country for being more open about letting inspectors in.

Iran says the U.S. is twisting arms at the IAEA. Tehran responded by freezing U.N. inspections in protest.

And fans rejoice over cricket diplomacy in India and Pakistan. For the first time in 14 years, India's national cricket team is playing in Pakistan. Officials in both countries hope the series of matches will help improve relations.

Arrests are made in connection with this week's Spanish terrorist attack. An update on today's top stories is straight ahead.

Plus...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not going to change my policies. I served the 3.2 million people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties, and all these do good organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Tell it like it is. A controversial Arizona sheriff is back in the spotlight. This time, it's over his treatment of juvenile offenders.

Also, the phone lines are still open for tonight's last call. Who should win "The Apprentice?" That number again is 1-800-807-2620.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Checking the stories making headlines tonight and tomorrow. Is al Qaeda responsible? Spain says it's analyzing a videotape making the claim that Osama bin Laden's terrorist group is behind the Madrid train bombing. Officials say the man on the tape claims to be al Qaeda's military spokesman.

A fatal fire in Pittsburgh, two firefighters were killed and 29 were injured when the bell tower and roofs of the city's historic Ebenezer Baptist Church collapsed. Officials say it looks like an electrical fire is to blame.

Well, and a house of horror. Nine people, seven of them children, as young as one years old, were found dead in Fresno in a home yesterday intertwined in a pile of clothes. Murder charges will be filed against 57-year old Marcus Wesson, the man believed to be the father of the victims.

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has made quite a name for himself over the years in Arizona. Known for his unconventional methods, Arpaio has often been the target of human rights activists. So where do you draw the line between justice and the rights of convicted criminals?

Eric Phillips tells us about Arpaio's latest controversial move.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERIC PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are minors tried as adults. And they're part of a newly formed juvenile chain gang picking up trash in Phoenix.

JOE ARPAIO, SHERIFF, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: These juveniles that committed armed robbery, burglary, you name it, they've committed it.

PHILLIPS: This is just the latest in a string of controversial moves for Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. The sheriff calls himself an equal opportunity incarcerator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's crazy.

PHILLIPS: He tells the teens they'll get no free rides.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like this idea about us coming out here. But some of the stuff that goes on, I don't agree with.

PHILLIPS: In his 12 years in office, Arpaio has made male inmates wear prison stripes and pink underwear. There's no TV, no coffee, no nude-y magazines. Then there are the chain gangs. He first instituted the male chain gang in 1995 and started the female chain gang in 1996.

And now a juvenile chain gang. All of them are volunteer. The teens earn high school credit toward a diploma from Hard Knocks High, the school program at the county jail. Adults use the gangs to work their way out of lockdowns, where they're been placed because of disciplinary problems.

Some critics call Arpaio's methods barbaric, criticism he dismisses.

ARPAIO: I'm not going to change my polices. I serve the 3.2 people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties, and all these do good organizations.

PHILLIPS: Arpaio's approval ratings in Phoenix remain at 80 to 85 percent.

Eric Phillips, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Now to our national roundup. Police in Michigan are hoping surveillance video will provide clues into a deadly shooting at Kellogg Community College. Two people were found dead, one critically wounded in a car in the school parking lot this morning. Police don't believe the victims attended the school.

The search is intensifying in Baltimore's Inner Harbor for three people missing at a water taxi capsizing. The boat, carrying 25 people, capsized in bad weather last Saturday. Crews are trying to raise the boat's roof, found in the harbor yesterday. And it appears the son of baseball legend Ted Williams could wind up in a cryonics lab, like his father. "The St. Petersburg Times" reports John Henry Williams stated in his will he wished to be frozen, alongside his dad. Williams died last week. He spent his last two years embroiled in a bitter family dispute for placing his father in a cryonics lab.

Opera legend Luciano Pavarotti takes his final bow. The 68-year old tenor is giving his last performance tonight to a sold out crowd at New York's Metropolitan Opera House. Pavarotti's career spanned more than four decades. He says it would take a miracle for him to return to the stage.

A pilot escapes death. And now he fights to save the life of his daughter. Nearly 15 years ago, Al Haynes helped save nearly 200 lives when he crashed landed a crippled plane. After the break, I'll speak with the pilot and his daughter about how his actions that day are helping her today.

And still to come, the latest canned contender from "The Apprentice." Find out what Heidi Bessler thinks about Donald now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: In tonight's CNN spotlight, repaying a debt of gratitude. When you look at the tape of the crash of United flight 232, it boggles the mind to know anybody survived, let alone almost 200 people. Most of the credit for saving lives that day goes to the pilot, Al Haynes.

Well, in a twist of fate, the people he saved are trying now to return the favor. We'll get to that in a moment when Al Haynes joins us live.

But first, some background.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LIN (voice-over): It was a sunny July day nearly 15 years ago.

BRUCE BENHAM, PASSENGER SURVIVOR: About an hour and 10 minutes into the flight, we heard a loud boom.

LIN: It was a fan blade disintegrating in the tail engine of United flight 232 from Denver to Chicago. The plane lost that engine and the hydraulic system used to steer the aircraft.

Pilot Al Haynes and his crew had no choice but to try an emergency landing in Sioux City, Iowa.

CONTROL TOWER: United 232 heavy, if you can't make the airport there is an interstate that runs north to south to the east side of the airport. It is a four lane interstate.

AL HAYNES: We're just passing it now. We're going to try for the airport. LIN: They almost made it. Carefully navigating the disabled DC- 10 to the ground just a few feet short of runway 31. The plane hit the ground and cartwheeled, bursting into flames.

296 passengers and crew on board. Miraculously, 184 survived. Captain Haynes and his crew among those who fully recovered.

It was a story of heroes. Passengers who pulled one another from the burning debris, strangers who risked their lives to carry children to safety. Pilots who landed the crippled plane, saving the lives of so many on board.

But Al Haynes refuses the mantle of hero.

HAYNES: There's no hero. There is just a group of four people who did their job. And it was an unusual circumstance, but we put our best resources and knowledge together and did what we thought was best.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: It is a remarkable story. And now Al Haynes and his daughter Laurie Haynes Arguello join us from Seattle. Laurie has aplastic anemia, a bone marrow disease, but there now is some reason for hope.

Good evening to both of you. I spoke with both of you a couple of months ago, some time ago. Laurie, and at the time, you had a donor, a critical donor. But what you didn't have was the money in order to go through the procedure. You needed more than $200,000. It might as well have been $200 million, right, for what little money you had in the bank.

Your father's remarkable story has drawn together, frankly, a remarkable group of people, those very people on that flight, including some members of the crew, have rallied together and what, now has raised more than $200,000, $256,000 for your medical care. It's amazing.

LAURIE HAYNES ARGUELLO: It is truly amazing. It's been a tremendous amount of time that we've -- a short amount of time that we've been able to raise this money. And it's truly amazing the people that have pitched in and donated everything from a $1 to $1,000.

LIN: Because you started a Web site. You sent out a letter.

Al, I want to bring you into this discussion, because really, you were doing a lot of the spearheading on behalf of your daughter. When these people came together, how did you first hear that some of the passengers on that ill-fated flight were coming together on your daughter's behalf?

HAYNES: Well, the foundation, the National Foundation for Transplant has been handling the online donations. And they were notifying Laurie that everyone that would donate and those who put notes in, saying they were from the flight or heard about how they heard it addressed to me, they were forwarding to her. And then she was giving them to me. And that's how we found out that not only the passengers off the flight, but people all over the country and all over the world responding from the media's coverage of the event and contributing for it.

LIN: What was your reaction?

HAYNES: Shocked that so many people responded so quickly.

LIN: Well, Al, in particular, the group of people on the plane, you saved their lives. Isn't this the least that they could do for you?

HAYNES: Well, I don't think they owe us anything. We did what we had to do, and we tried to. And some who had suffered a lot because of it, but if they want to respond, I'm very pleased that they did, but I don't feel that they have any responsibility to respond at all.

LIN: Laurie, why are you laughing?

ARGUELLO: Because I know how my dad feels about it. And we've read just about every letter that's come in. And it's truly amazing the way people have responded.

LIN: So what happens for you now?

ARGUELLO: I wait for my counts to go bad, and then I go back to Seattle Cancer Care Lines or Fred Hutch. And we go have the transplant.

LIN: And the prognosis?

ARGUELLO: Hopefully it's going to be really good. It's very unpredictable. A lot of things can happen. You really don't know until you go through the process. You've got to get really sick to get better, so...

LIN: Yes...

ARGUELLO: ...one step at a time.

LIN: ...it's a waiting game.

ARGUELLO: That's right.

LIN: But given the nature of things and how things have turned out, don't you believe in fate at this point?

ARGUELLO: I have long before dad's accident. So we're due for some good luck.

LIN: You bet, you bet. Al, you have experienced tremendous joy and tremendous sorrow in your life. You lost your son to a motorcycle accident in 1997. You lost your wife two years later. How do you look upon this whole experience, this coming together for your daughter and where you are at your life right now?

HAYNES: I'm -- things happen, as they put on the T-shirt. And you just -- you can't help it. You just have to deal with it. But I learned that from beginning with 232 that when something bad goes wrong, there's probably a reason for it somewhere. Somebody can explain it. But most of it, we just take what's happened to us and go on.

You can't why me. You can second guess. Then when my son died, and then my wife died, and now this. There's no sense crying and moaning about it. It's a bad thing, but we had a lot of good luck in our life, too. And we rejoiced over that. So now we just go through the bad part and do the best we can.

LIN: You know what? Just like you were on flight 232, you're grabbing the wheel and you're taking charge. And we're going to live by your example. Al Haynes...

HAYNES: Thank you.,

LIN: ...thank you very much for joining us.

HAYNES: Thank you, Carol.

LIN: Laurie, good luck with the procedure. We're rooting for you. And afterwards, since we've been following your story so closely, I invite both of you back to share the joy of your recovery.

HAYNES: We'll be here.

ARGUELLO: Thank you. We'll be glad to come back.

LIN: All right, looking forward to it.

HAYNES: Thanks, Carol. Good-night.

LIN: How long would you stand in line for the chance to get fired on national television? After the break, proof of the power of the Donald. Plus...

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how I see it. Women are better in sales.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: OK. And what are men better at? Heidi Bessler is no longer the apprentice, but she still has some strong views about the business world. My interview with her is straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: They're lining up by the thousands. Thousands of people vying to become the next contestant on the hot reality show, "The Apprentice 2." For those who are unfamiliar with the series, 16 contestants compete to win the job of a lifetime, an apprenticeship with none other than Donald Trump.

One person who knows of that all too well is Heidi Bessler. She was given the boot on this week's episode. Well, earlier, I talked to Heidi about her experience.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: I'm going to take you back into the boardroom.

HEIDI BESSLER, THE APPRENTICE CONTESTANT: OK.

LIN: Donald Trump looks you in the eye and says, "You're fired." If had a gun in your hand, and I'm going to let you finish that sentence. I mean, what would you do?

BESSLER: Did you say if I had a gun in my hand?

LIN: At that very second, you heard those words from the man.

BESSLER: You know, at that time, when Donald Trump said "you're fired," at that moment I was relieved only because I think what really hurt me on that task was that morning I went to see my mom. And my head was not in the game. That -- everyone that knows me said Heidi, that was not the Heidi we know...

LIN: You looked mad.

BESSLER: I would -- I wasn't mad at all. I was relieved.

LIN: Really?

BESSLER: I -- normally, if you knew the normal Heidi, I would have -- first of all, I would have literally fought with Caroline and I would have stuck up for myself. And I would have won. And I would have brought up the fact that Troy strictly didn't pick Kwame because he's his friend. And I know I would have won.

LIN: Now you're talking about Caroline, Donald Trump's associate there...

BESSLER: Yes.

LIN: ...who basically said that you brought nothing to the table, that you didn't add anything to the team, that you really didn't do anything or take initiative. She was pretty tough on you.

BESSLER: OK, first of all, and I'd like to address that, you know, throughout all of the tasks, just to name a few, you know, I was a key presenter for the Marquis Jet. When I was a project manager, I led my team to success.

For the Planet Hollywood, the only reason -- one of the reasons why we won is I drove in the most sales. And also for the lemonade. So she has never said two words to me. And the first time she speaks to me, she basically criticizes me. And you know what? Maybe it's TV, but that's not how a manager in real world works. LIN: Well, you're what, like the sixth woman to get kicked off that show?

BESSLER: That's correct.

LIN: What have you learned about women in the work place and male/female dynamics then?

BESSLER: Well, you know, right now being in the corporate America, you know, I work in a male-dominated field for now. You know, I think there's -- for me, this is how I see it. Women are better in sales. And men are better -- some, I don't want them to get mad at me -- men seem to be a little bit more at ease in management. And...

LIN: But what about also getting along with each other? Because you know, it seemed like -- I don't know if it was the editing or what, but the women seemed to be going at each other. You and Omarosa were not exactly the best of friends.

BESSLER: No, no. You know you're right. I -- this is what I think is different between men and women. Men, they can get into an argument and you know, two minutes later, it rolls off their shoulder and they're like, OK, whatever, we're friends. Where women tend to hold grudges. We tend to get -- we're emotional and we'll yell at each other.

And from the Omarosa, I really -- I never got into an argument. The reason I was so mad at Omarosa is because of her work ethics. There was no reason to take a two hour lunch break. I know that restaurant Felix in Soho. It's crowded. And it just blew my mind away that her head hurt when we needed to get the work done and I just went crazy on her...

LIN: You know...

BESSLER: ...because she's lazy.

LIN: It seemed like there were a lot of stereotypes that came out about women in the work place. For example, you know, I think you guys were pretty quick to use sexuality when it came to using -- drumming up sales tactics, trying to get business, trying to project ideas.

BESSLER: You know, I understand where some -- everyone I think there's nothing wrong with using flirting and using sexuality to sell. I'm in sales, and we -- I do it every day. And there's a difference between using sexuality and crossing the line.

And even the men in our suite said if we could do it, we would do it.

LIN: So what are you going to do next? What are you going to do next, Heidi?

BESSLER: You know, I may stay in the sales field. You know, you have to strike while the iron's hot. Maybe getting into a little entertainment for a while. And who knows? Maybe I'll even work for Trump.

LIN: You think he's going to ask?

BESSLER: He'd better ask.

LIN: Did he give you an idea that he would? And what would you do?

BESSLER: I would do sales for him in a minute. But you know, it's so funny because I realize with this experience, there's so much out there. And I mean one of the things I'm really good at is sales and people. And just got to have fun with this.

LIN: Yes.

BESSLER: And obviously, I'm a money hungry girl, so.

LIN: Well, you had America sold there, Heidi. So good luck to you. It was fun to watch. I thought it was.

BESSLER: Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: She's a riot. So who should be the last apprentice standing? We're going to have some of your views on the contestants after the break. You've been ringing our phone off the hook.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: You probably know how to get to Sesame Street, but can you tell me how to get to Pancake Mountain? That's a question some families in Washington, D.C. can happily answer. As Elaine Quijano tells us, the first step is to hop onto the information superhighway.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To describe Pancake Mountain as just another kids show isn't at all accurate.

For now, it's only on the Internet, an edgy, eclectic mix of music and some education. But mostly fun, complete with kids dance parties, appearances by local D.C. bands, and a cast of characters like a not so bright backstage reporter named Rufus Leaking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We play a variety of music from Go-Go...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go where? Where do you want me to go? I don't understand the hostility here because I'm just trying to do an interview and there's no need for that kind of...

QUIJANO: If you've never heard of Pancake Mountain, it's for good reason. The show's creator and producers wanted to retain its local flavor. And more importantly... SCOTT STUCKEY, CREATOR, PANCAKE MOUNTAIN: Without kind of the whole promotional stuff or trying to sell anything, so the kids can kind of have fun and learn about their community and see friends of theirs.

JEORGE SEDER, PRODUCER, PANCAKE MOUNTAIN: If had kids, I would want to sit down and watch this show with them. I would enjoy the show just as much as they did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know we all agree on this show we would never sell this kind of cheap commercial products.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, especially something as ugly as this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And heavy. This could really hurt somebody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheap merchandising.

QUIJANO: The show began as just a handful of skits a few months ago and grew to a more elaborate production, paid for mostly by its creator with the help of borrowed equipment and time. The kids involved show up with their parents, eager to perform.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today I'm just doing my thing, being wild.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm (UNINTELLIGIBLE) really a lot. I won a dance contest twice at my school.

QUIJANO: As for the future, the producers hope their recipe stirs up interest from either cable access or a local D.C. TV station. So the can serve up Pancake Mountain to an even bigger audience.

Elaine Quijano, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Well, that's it from us. Thanks for joining us. And update on the day's top stories in just a few minutes. But first, here are some of your answers to tonight's last call question.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CALLER: I think Amy should win on "The Apprentice" because she is the sharpest player that was on the show the whole time.

CALLER: I would like Bill to win.

CALLER: I think Amy should win. She's really the smartest person out there.

CALLER: I'm almost ashamed to admit, but I've watched every single episode of "The Apprentice" and find it usually entertaining. And Donald Trump, actually, eminently likable, despite being born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Katrina, I think should win.

CALLER: Kwame should definitely win on "The Apprentice." CALLER: I think that Troy should win "The Apprentice."

CALLER: It should be Nick. He's the most energetic, most deserving, most enthusiastic and spontaneous member that deserves the position with Mr. Donald Trump.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Pittsburgh Firefighters Killed in the Line of Duty>


Aired March 13, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: From the CNN Global Headquarters in Atlanta, this is CNN SATURDAY NIGHT.
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Brent Sadler in Madrid, where the strongest indications yet have surfaced that the al Qaeda terror network may have been behind Thursday's deadly bomb blast that killed 200 people using the rail network.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Miguel Marquez live in Fresno, California. Nine dead, a father, a husband charged with the murders. Polygamists, possible cults, I'll have the details.

LIN: Thanks, Miguel.

15 years ago, Al Haynes saved the lives of nearly 200 people. Now survivors of this unforgettable flight are trying to save his daughter's life. These stories and a lot more next on CNN SATURDAY NIGHT.

Thanks for spending your Saturday night with us. Up front tonight, killed in the line of duty. Firefighters in Pittsburgh are mourning after two of their own die while trying to save a city landmark. A live report coming up.

Also, a Southwest sheriff takes a controversial step to scare straight young criminals. And your fired. I'm going to be talking with Heidi Bessler, the latest apprentice to be fired by Donald Trump. What she has to say about the billionaire may surprise you.

But up first tonight, a break in the horrific terrorist attacks in Spain. A tape surfaced just hours ago, claiming al Qaeda was behind Thursday's deadly train bombings. Five people are under arrest. Three Moroccans and two Indians were captured Saturday and are now being questioned.

As the investigation intensifies, angry Spaniards are lashing out, accusing the government of hiding evidence. That could have major implications for Sunday's elections.

Let's turn to CNN's Brent Sadler, live in Madrid, with the latest on the investigation and the reaction.

Brent, tell us more about what prompted so many people to hit the streets today? SADLER: Well, Carol these were dramatic hours during the night time here, right in the center of Madrid. And many, many thousands of people turned out onto the streets, blocking many roads leading to the area outside the headquarters of the ruling popular party.

And what brought these people out in their droves was a total dissatisfaction of what they claim was attempt by the popular party, by the government of the day to really manipulate, for political reasons, the way evidence was coming out of the inquiry as to who was behind Thursday's deadly bomb blast.

Let's not forget that a year ago, up to 90 percent of the Spanish people were against the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. And there was concern among sectors of the ruling party that there could have perhaps have been a voter backlash at the polls Sunday. And that by manipulating when information came out, it could work in favor of the ruling party.

So thousands of them came out. They were very noisy. They were controlled by riot police, but there was no violence -- Carol?

LIN: So any sense yet on how this is going to affect the parliamentary elections in Spain?

SADLER: Well, I think what we've heard in these announcements, three press conferences from the interior minister over the hours that these demonstrations were at their peak, and significant announcements they were indeed. The arrest of five people, three Moroccans, two Indians, they're under official arrest status. But two others, Indians of Spanish origin, they were picked up for questioning, but are not officially under arrest. So a total of seven people there.

And they were picked up, the five that have been arrested, picked up after authorities say they went through a phone call from a mobile telephone that was found inside an unexploded device. The phone call was checked out. And these people were traced from calls apparently made on that phone. So interesting detail there in terms of the inquiry.

And then subsequently, information about this videotape, a videotape that was discovered in a mosque in Madrid after an anonymous phone call had been made to a television station, telling the police they should go and pick it up because it contained an al Qaeda claim -- Carol?

LIN: All right, thank you very much, Brent Sadler with the latest and a lot to tell from Madrid.

All right, Jim Walsh researches and writes about terrorism at Harvard University. Jim joins us now from San Francisco.

Jim, let me talk to you a little bit more about this videotape. Our reporters got a transcript from the interior ministry of the videotape. Apparently a man by the name of Abu Dujan al Afghani (ph), claiming to be the spokesperson for the military arm of al Qaeda, made this series of announcements about the threat of further attacks in the western world. What do you know about this man? Have you ever heard of him? Does he sound legitimate to you?

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, I think the key factor here for viewers to pay attention to is the fact that the interior ministry released the tape. You'll remember that we had an earlier claim of responsibility that was sent into an Arabic newspaper. And that was widely discounted because the same group that had claimed responsibility there had also claimed responsibility for the blackout in New York.

But here we have the interior ministry, which previously had really pinned this on ETA. I think in some ways, they were hoping it was ETA. And now they have not only made these arrests, but they have released a tape. And I think that's highly suggestive that al Qaeda or an Islamist group may be responsible.

LIN: But does the name sound familiar to you?

WALSH: Well, not to me. I -- it doesn't ring a bell with me, but I think that they -- the state -- the interior ministry would not be releasing the tape if they thought that there was some chance that it was plagiarized, fake...

LIN: Right.

WALSH: ...or wasn't of significance.

LIN: Right.

WALSH: The fact that they did release it means that they think it's part of the evidence that suggests that al Qaeda...

LIN: Right.

WALSH: ...or an Islamist group may be responsible.

LIN: But interesting because yes, the ministry released the tape, but other western intelligence services are starting to discount it. Of course, everybody is doing their own investigations, but perhaps something a little more sinister in some of its claims.

I mean, if it is al Qaeda, what does it tell you about what al Qaeda is up to, given the nature of this attack on the trains?

WALSH: Well, Carol, I think you're right to point out the fact that just because we have arrests, and just because we have a tape, doesn't mean that al Qaeda is responsible. This has been one of the more perplexing cases that we've had. We've had circumstantial evidence both for ETA and for al Qaeda.

But to get to your question, if it is al Qaeda, I think it's of major significance. I think it in some ways presents evidence in support of a recent CIA finding that al Qaeda has more. It's changed from a big organization into a movement. That's what CIA Director Tenet said. It's become a movement with lots of members. And if that's the case, that is a worrisome development. Director Tenet mentioned polling numbers that shows that the U.S. is very unpopular in the Muslim world, and that this has given al Qaeda an opportunity to sell that ideology to anti-American, anti- western ideology to more and more people. That is not good news.

LIN: No, it's not. Jim, so what is the message here? I mean, are westerners more at risk now than they were before 9/11?

WALSH: Well, I certainly think that if you look over the record of the past year, we had never had an attack in Saudi Arabia of any significance. We've had an attack an Saudi Arabia. We hadn't had attacks in Morocco. There were attacks in Morocco. And of course, Morocco is a stone's throw from Spain, which was a major ally of the U.S. during the Iraq War.

So I think al Qaeda, despite its weaknesses, despite our successes, has shown the ability to strike in a variety of places in unexpected ways. And again, that is not welcome. If there are a lot of folks who are mad at the U.S., and this is somehow helping al Qaeda local, little al Qaedas to grow, then our problem is certainly much more complicated.

LIN: All right, well it's still under investigation, but the message in this videotape was eerie that there would be further attacks against supporters of the United States. Obviously Spain, one of the bigger supporters, the government itself...

WALSH: Absolutely.

LIN: ...of the U.S. war, the Gulf War in -- against Saddam Hussein this time around. Thank you very much, Jim...

WALSH: Thank you, Carol.

LIN: ...Jim Walsh.

Well, dozens of Spaniards did hold a vigil at the United Nations today, in a show of solidarity with Spain. Mourners held a moment of silence at 1:00 to coincide with a similar observance in Spain. Many wore black ribbons. Others held banners calling for an end to terrorism and violence.

Now as the story unfolds in Madrid, the U.S. military announces its plans to step up a search, the search for al Qaeda's leader Osama bin Laden. Operation Mountain Storm will take U.S. troops into Afghanistan's lawless southeastern border region near Pakistan in the days and weeks ahead. However, military officials say they don't expect to increase U.S. forces beyond the 11,000 already in Afghanistan. Officials were talking about a renewed spring offensive for the past few weeks.

Well, ever since the 9/11 attacks, the city of New York has been on a long road to recovery. It's a path the people of Madrid have just started upon. Well, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg appeared today on CNN's "CAPITAL GANG." And he says Madrid, like New York, must carry on. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: I think it's the price you pay for standing up for democracy, that you will be a target if it turns out to be al Qaeda. And I don't know any more than anybody else whether it will be or not.

The truth of the matter is, it's a dangerous world, but the average person has a lot more chance of being struck by lightning than terrorism. And the one thing I know for sure, the way to let the terrorists win is to let them alter our lifestyle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right, well, Mayor Bloomberg says the world must stand up to terrorists because if it doesn't, freedom will be lost.

While the world trains its sights on who's responsible in Madrid, the war in Iraq marches on with another deadly day for U.S. troops. Two soldiers were killed and five others wounded Saturday at a road side bombing as they patrolled Tikrit.

U.S. officials have blamed outside terrorists for many of the attacks on U.S. troops. To help stop them, U.S. civilian administrator Paul Bremer says the coalition will bolster security along Iraq's borders. The coalition plans to double the number of security people on the borders and start up a system to ID everyone entering and leaving Iraq.

Right now, we want to move on to California. Police are planning to file formal charges in a horrific murder investigation. Nine people, seven of them children, were found dead, stacked on top of each other at a home yesterday in Fresno. More sordid details surfaced today.

And with that, we're going to go to CNN's Miguel Marquez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JERRY DYER, FRESNO POLICE CHIEF: This is obviously the worst mass murder case that we have had in the history of our city.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The worst mass murder police say caused by this man, Marcus Wesson. In response to a reporter asking if he was the killer, Wesson only expressed love.

MARCUS WESSON, MURDER SUSPECT: I love you.

MARQUEZ: Fresno's police chief says the murder scene was so grisly, police officers cried as the bodies of the children were bagged. Among the nine dead, Wesson's children and the grandchildren he fathered with his own daughters.

DYER: Our investigation has revealed, at least we've been told, that suspect Wesson is the father of two of his grandchildren, which means that there was a sexual relationship that occurred between he and perhaps two of his daughters.

MARQUEZ: Police believe Wesson had a polygamist relationship with several of the women he lived with. Police are also investigating the possibility that Wesson had a cult-like following by his family. Chief Dyer also says there are so many dead, that almost his entire department is involved in the case.

DYER: In fact, this single incident has quadrupled the murder rate in our city in one night.

MARQUEZ: Frank Muno has known Wesson for several years. He claims the relationship between Wesson and the women was less than normal.

FRANK MUNO, WESSON BUSINESS ASSOCIATE: It was an odd relationship between them and -- for him and the women. He had complete control. They were the ones working and bringing in money. And he would tell them where -- how to spend it, where to transfer funds. And they just fell in line.

MARQUEZ: And as the day wore on, people who didn't even know the victims stopped by to pay their respects, a clear sign of how the murders have shaken even the city's youngest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was kind of sad that those kids had to die.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: Now at this point, Wesson has been booked on nine counts of murder. Police say that other charges are possible. He's expected to be arraigned early next week -- Carol?

LIN: All right, thank you very much, Miguel Marquez reporting live in Fresno.

Now Fresno police, while they had that news conference this afternoon, and that is where Police Chief Jerry Dyer graphically and compassionately shared what this killing rampage has done to his investigators and the city. Well, we invite Chief Jerry Dyer to join us tonight.

Chief Dyer, thank you very much for being with us. I know it's been a very long and a very difficult day for you and your officers.

DYER: Well, thank you for having me on the show.

LIN: Let me ask you this. And it's hard to know even where to start with a crime like this. You talked briefly about your officers being so affected that some of them are having to seek counseling. What is it that they saw inside that home? These are veteran officers you're talking about.

DYER: Just the visual display of the nine victims that were in there. I can't talk about the manner in which the deaths occurred, but just seeing those individuals that were in that room, the way that they were positioned on top of each other. The fact that there were so many children involved and several infants is something that I'm sure is always going to be in the mind of those officers that were inside.

LIN: You said earlier today that the way the bodies were positioned and how they were piled seemed to indicate to you that there was some sort of ritual going on. What did it look like was going to happen next with those bodies?

DYER: We don't know what the plan was for suspect Wesson with the bodies. But what we do know that there was nine victims in a relatively small room. Perhaps that was the reason why they were positioned on top of each other, because of a lack of space.

But I did comment earlier that the -- we aren't making reference to the cause of the death, but the apparent death appears to be very consistent amongst each of the victims and unique, although that's yet to be corroborated by the coroner's office.

LIN: Did it look like there was a struggle inside? Or did it look like they might have been willing victims?

DYER: In terms of the manner in which they killed, I can't discuss. I can't really get into whether or not there was any apparent struggle, physical evidence, but through the course of the investigation, we will be able to sort out some of those details.

LIN: You also say that Marcus Wesson is cooperating. In what way?

DYER: Well, first off, when he -- initially after he ran into the bedroom and locked himself inside, that was his apparent type of resistance. But ultimately when he came outside, he was very cooperative with officers when they took him into custody. When he was handcuffed, he offered up no resistance.

And then subsequent to that, after bringing him to headquarters, he's been very cooperative and willing to talk with the investigators.

And so, he's demonstrated that he is willing to cooperate. He is very articulate. Appears to be very calm and very intelligent.

LIN: So he doesn't seem crazy to you? He doesn't seem deranged in any way?

DYER: You know, I'm not a psychologist, so I obviously couldn't tell you whether or not he's got some mental disorder, but...

LIN: I mean what...

DYER: ...he appears to be...

LIN: ...could his motive be?

DYER: Well, he appears to be in the right state of mind. We're going to search out what that motive might be. It's difficult to say. There's been a lot of discussion about his belief system, the belief system of the family, whether or not there is a cult or a sect. We're trying to look into all of those avenues and truly try to determine what the motive was. Was it about child custody dispute? Or was it beyond that? Those are things we're going to have to sort out.

LIN: You know, I think Chief Dyer, with a crime like those, those are, of course, legal questions, but I know they can be very personal questions in a small community like Fresno. And I hope you find those answers. Thank you very much for joining us.

DYER: Well, thank you.

LIN: All right, across the country, a fire has devastated a community in Pittsburgh. Two firefighters were killed today and more than two dozen injured while battling a fire at an historic church. The fire left Ebenezer Baptist Church in ruins. You are looking at a live picture, courtesy of our affiliate WTAE.

Reporter Meghan Jones watched the disaster unfold.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MEGHAN JONES, WTAE NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the moment the walls came down, it was immediately apparent that people had been hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of a sudden, the side of the building just came -- started coming down. We started yelling for the firefighters to get out the way and they started looking up and the bricks just fell down on them.

JONES: Paramedics and firefighters scrambled to help those injured, as more pieces came down. Paramedics carried injured firefighters away from the building, fearing more of the building would fall.

J.T. THOMAS, WITNESS: It was devastating and people reacting to it, because quite a few people were here on the premises, you know, watching it.

JONES: So many people, many of them church members, saw their church on fire, then witnessed the horrible crash. Then came news that two firefighters were missing inside the building, presumably buried under the rubble. Rescue crews asked parishioners for help in finding out how to get them out.

ROGER TRAVIS, CHURCH MEMBER: What it is, it's part of a vestibule entrance, where there is a stairwell that goes downstairs to the basement where we used to have Sunday school. In all probability, the steps are gone. So if the steps are gone, then they're going to have to lift them up out of there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right, that was Meghan Jones, reporting from our affiliate WTAE. Meghan also tells us that while they were trying to figure out a way to save the building, unfortunately no way to save that historic church. It is going to have to be torn down.

Well, a race for the White House is pretty -- well, it's rarely pretty. Well, now this year's Democratic frontrunner claims he wants to do something about it. After the break, the challenge put forth by John Kerry to the president and the Republican response.

And they may be teens, but they are not too young for the chain gang. Stick around to find out where this controversial punishment is being handed out.

Plus...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We needed to get the work done. And I just went crazy on her, because she's crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Oh, tough. The latest apprentice cast-off sounds off about the former opponent. And that brings us to tonight's last call question. Who do you think Donald should pick as his apprentice? Give us a call at 1-800-807-2620. CNN SATURDAY NIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Things got a little heated this week in the race for the White House. First the likely Democratic nominee, John Kerry, called the people attacking him the "most crooked, lying group of people he'd ever seen."

Well, the Bush campaign fired back, calling Kerry nothing more than an angry liberal. So will the two sides make nice? Well, as White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports, don't bet on it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After weeks of both sides swinging, President Bush's opponent seemingly offered an olive branch.

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President Bush and I can do better. And America deserves better.

MALVEAUX: A call to drop the negative campaigning and a challenge to the president.

KERRY: I am asking George Bush to agree to a series of monthly debates, starting this spring, to talk about the real issues in our country.

MALVEAUX: While Mr. Bush has already committed to three debates, his campaign is still smarting from Senator Kerry's offhanded comment...

KERRY: These guys are the most crooked...

MALVEAUX: A Bush campaign spokesman said after calling Republicans crooks and liars, John Kerry is now calling for a civil debate on the issues. Senator Kerry should finish the debate with himself, before he starts trying to explain his positions to the voters.

Earlier in the day, in dueling radio addresses, the president and Democrats faced off over the economy. Mr. Bush said his critics' plan would kill jobs.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They want to increase federal taxes. Yet punishing families and small businesses is not a job creation strategy.

MALVEAUX: Senator Kerry has said he would not raise taxes, but only roll back the tax cut for America's most wealthy. Liberal icon Senator Ted Kennedy fired back.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Job creation in America is in the basement.

MALVEAUX: Some political observers say the early hostilities between the Bush/Kerry camps will make it harder to make nice later.

KEN RUDIN, POLITICAL ANALYST: With a 24-hour cycle between cable TV and the Internet, you have attacks followed by attacks, followed by rebuttals, followed by rebuttal to that, too. So it's -- not only is it uglier than ever, but it starts earlier than ever. And it's more -- I think it's more intense than ever.

MALVEAUX: Both sides acknowledge the negative campaigning could backfire. So Senator Kerry offered this scenario.

KERRY: Who knows? Maybe it's possible that when it's all over, George Bush and I will be able to sit down together at a Red Sox/Rangers game and shake hands as friends. I'll tell you this. That would be an election that Americans would win in the end.

MALVEAUX (on camera): But considering the way things have been going lately, that's not likely.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Americans go to the polls in November, but the Russians are voting this weekend. That leads off our world roundup. There's little opposition to President Vladimir Putin's re-election, but that doesn't mean it's a slam dunk because Putin has so much support, some officials are worried about voter turnout. At least 50 percent turnout is needed for the election to be valid.

The U.N.'s nuclear watch dog is slamming Iran for hiding its nuclear activities, adopting a resolution to that effect. But the International Atomic Energy Agency complimented the country for being more open about letting inspectors in.

Iran says the U.S. is twisting arms at the IAEA. Tehran responded by freezing U.N. inspections in protest.

And fans rejoice over cricket diplomacy in India and Pakistan. For the first time in 14 years, India's national cricket team is playing in Pakistan. Officials in both countries hope the series of matches will help improve relations.

Arrests are made in connection with this week's Spanish terrorist attack. An update on today's top stories is straight ahead.

Plus...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not going to change my policies. I served the 3.2 million people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties, and all these do good organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Tell it like it is. A controversial Arizona sheriff is back in the spotlight. This time, it's over his treatment of juvenile offenders.

Also, the phone lines are still open for tonight's last call. Who should win "The Apprentice?" That number again is 1-800-807-2620.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Checking the stories making headlines tonight and tomorrow. Is al Qaeda responsible? Spain says it's analyzing a videotape making the claim that Osama bin Laden's terrorist group is behind the Madrid train bombing. Officials say the man on the tape claims to be al Qaeda's military spokesman.

A fatal fire in Pittsburgh, two firefighters were killed and 29 were injured when the bell tower and roofs of the city's historic Ebenezer Baptist Church collapsed. Officials say it looks like an electrical fire is to blame.

Well, and a house of horror. Nine people, seven of them children, as young as one years old, were found dead in Fresno in a home yesterday intertwined in a pile of clothes. Murder charges will be filed against 57-year old Marcus Wesson, the man believed to be the father of the victims.

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio has made quite a name for himself over the years in Arizona. Known for his unconventional methods, Arpaio has often been the target of human rights activists. So where do you draw the line between justice and the rights of convicted criminals?

Eric Phillips tells us about Arpaio's latest controversial move.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERIC PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are minors tried as adults. And they're part of a newly formed juvenile chain gang picking up trash in Phoenix.

JOE ARPAIO, SHERIFF, MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA: These juveniles that committed armed robbery, burglary, you name it, they've committed it.

PHILLIPS: This is just the latest in a string of controversial moves for Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. The sheriff calls himself an equal opportunity incarcerator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's crazy.

PHILLIPS: He tells the teens they'll get no free rides.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like this idea about us coming out here. But some of the stuff that goes on, I don't agree with.

PHILLIPS: In his 12 years in office, Arpaio has made male inmates wear prison stripes and pink underwear. There's no TV, no coffee, no nude-y magazines. Then there are the chain gangs. He first instituted the male chain gang in 1995 and started the female chain gang in 1996.

And now a juvenile chain gang. All of them are volunteer. The teens earn high school credit toward a diploma from Hard Knocks High, the school program at the county jail. Adults use the gangs to work their way out of lockdowns, where they're been placed because of disciplinary problems.

Some critics call Arpaio's methods barbaric, criticism he dismisses.

ARPAIO: I'm not going to change my polices. I serve the 3.2 people here. I don't serve Amnesty International, Civil Liberties, and all these do good organizations.

PHILLIPS: Arpaio's approval ratings in Phoenix remain at 80 to 85 percent.

Eric Phillips, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Now to our national roundup. Police in Michigan are hoping surveillance video will provide clues into a deadly shooting at Kellogg Community College. Two people were found dead, one critically wounded in a car in the school parking lot this morning. Police don't believe the victims attended the school.

The search is intensifying in Baltimore's Inner Harbor for three people missing at a water taxi capsizing. The boat, carrying 25 people, capsized in bad weather last Saturday. Crews are trying to raise the boat's roof, found in the harbor yesterday. And it appears the son of baseball legend Ted Williams could wind up in a cryonics lab, like his father. "The St. Petersburg Times" reports John Henry Williams stated in his will he wished to be frozen, alongside his dad. Williams died last week. He spent his last two years embroiled in a bitter family dispute for placing his father in a cryonics lab.

Opera legend Luciano Pavarotti takes his final bow. The 68-year old tenor is giving his last performance tonight to a sold out crowd at New York's Metropolitan Opera House. Pavarotti's career spanned more than four decades. He says it would take a miracle for him to return to the stage.

A pilot escapes death. And now he fights to save the life of his daughter. Nearly 15 years ago, Al Haynes helped save nearly 200 lives when he crashed landed a crippled plane. After the break, I'll speak with the pilot and his daughter about how his actions that day are helping her today.

And still to come, the latest canned contender from "The Apprentice." Find out what Heidi Bessler thinks about Donald now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: In tonight's CNN spotlight, repaying a debt of gratitude. When you look at the tape of the crash of United flight 232, it boggles the mind to know anybody survived, let alone almost 200 people. Most of the credit for saving lives that day goes to the pilot, Al Haynes.

Well, in a twist of fate, the people he saved are trying now to return the favor. We'll get to that in a moment when Al Haynes joins us live.

But first, some background.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LIN (voice-over): It was a sunny July day nearly 15 years ago.

BRUCE BENHAM, PASSENGER SURVIVOR: About an hour and 10 minutes into the flight, we heard a loud boom.

LIN: It was a fan blade disintegrating in the tail engine of United flight 232 from Denver to Chicago. The plane lost that engine and the hydraulic system used to steer the aircraft.

Pilot Al Haynes and his crew had no choice but to try an emergency landing in Sioux City, Iowa.

CONTROL TOWER: United 232 heavy, if you can't make the airport there is an interstate that runs north to south to the east side of the airport. It is a four lane interstate.

AL HAYNES: We're just passing it now. We're going to try for the airport. LIN: They almost made it. Carefully navigating the disabled DC- 10 to the ground just a few feet short of runway 31. The plane hit the ground and cartwheeled, bursting into flames.

296 passengers and crew on board. Miraculously, 184 survived. Captain Haynes and his crew among those who fully recovered.

It was a story of heroes. Passengers who pulled one another from the burning debris, strangers who risked their lives to carry children to safety. Pilots who landed the crippled plane, saving the lives of so many on board.

But Al Haynes refuses the mantle of hero.

HAYNES: There's no hero. There is just a group of four people who did their job. And it was an unusual circumstance, but we put our best resources and knowledge together and did what we thought was best.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: It is a remarkable story. And now Al Haynes and his daughter Laurie Haynes Arguello join us from Seattle. Laurie has aplastic anemia, a bone marrow disease, but there now is some reason for hope.

Good evening to both of you. I spoke with both of you a couple of months ago, some time ago. Laurie, and at the time, you had a donor, a critical donor. But what you didn't have was the money in order to go through the procedure. You needed more than $200,000. It might as well have been $200 million, right, for what little money you had in the bank.

Your father's remarkable story has drawn together, frankly, a remarkable group of people, those very people on that flight, including some members of the crew, have rallied together and what, now has raised more than $200,000, $256,000 for your medical care. It's amazing.

LAURIE HAYNES ARGUELLO: It is truly amazing. It's been a tremendous amount of time that we've -- a short amount of time that we've been able to raise this money. And it's truly amazing the people that have pitched in and donated everything from a $1 to $1,000.

LIN: Because you started a Web site. You sent out a letter.

Al, I want to bring you into this discussion, because really, you were doing a lot of the spearheading on behalf of your daughter. When these people came together, how did you first hear that some of the passengers on that ill-fated flight were coming together on your daughter's behalf?

HAYNES: Well, the foundation, the National Foundation for Transplant has been handling the online donations. And they were notifying Laurie that everyone that would donate and those who put notes in, saying they were from the flight or heard about how they heard it addressed to me, they were forwarding to her. And then she was giving them to me. And that's how we found out that not only the passengers off the flight, but people all over the country and all over the world responding from the media's coverage of the event and contributing for it.

LIN: What was your reaction?

HAYNES: Shocked that so many people responded so quickly.

LIN: Well, Al, in particular, the group of people on the plane, you saved their lives. Isn't this the least that they could do for you?

HAYNES: Well, I don't think they owe us anything. We did what we had to do, and we tried to. And some who had suffered a lot because of it, but if they want to respond, I'm very pleased that they did, but I don't feel that they have any responsibility to respond at all.

LIN: Laurie, why are you laughing?

ARGUELLO: Because I know how my dad feels about it. And we've read just about every letter that's come in. And it's truly amazing the way people have responded.

LIN: So what happens for you now?

ARGUELLO: I wait for my counts to go bad, and then I go back to Seattle Cancer Care Lines or Fred Hutch. And we go have the transplant.

LIN: And the prognosis?

ARGUELLO: Hopefully it's going to be really good. It's very unpredictable. A lot of things can happen. You really don't know until you go through the process. You've got to get really sick to get better, so...

LIN: Yes...

ARGUELLO: ...one step at a time.

LIN: ...it's a waiting game.

ARGUELLO: That's right.

LIN: But given the nature of things and how things have turned out, don't you believe in fate at this point?

ARGUELLO: I have long before dad's accident. So we're due for some good luck.

LIN: You bet, you bet. Al, you have experienced tremendous joy and tremendous sorrow in your life. You lost your son to a motorcycle accident in 1997. You lost your wife two years later. How do you look upon this whole experience, this coming together for your daughter and where you are at your life right now?

HAYNES: I'm -- things happen, as they put on the T-shirt. And you just -- you can't help it. You just have to deal with it. But I learned that from beginning with 232 that when something bad goes wrong, there's probably a reason for it somewhere. Somebody can explain it. But most of it, we just take what's happened to us and go on.

You can't why me. You can second guess. Then when my son died, and then my wife died, and now this. There's no sense crying and moaning about it. It's a bad thing, but we had a lot of good luck in our life, too. And we rejoiced over that. So now we just go through the bad part and do the best we can.

LIN: You know what? Just like you were on flight 232, you're grabbing the wheel and you're taking charge. And we're going to live by your example. Al Haynes...

HAYNES: Thank you.,

LIN: ...thank you very much for joining us.

HAYNES: Thank you, Carol.

LIN: Laurie, good luck with the procedure. We're rooting for you. And afterwards, since we've been following your story so closely, I invite both of you back to share the joy of your recovery.

HAYNES: We'll be here.

ARGUELLO: Thank you. We'll be glad to come back.

LIN: All right, looking forward to it.

HAYNES: Thanks, Carol. Good-night.

LIN: How long would you stand in line for the chance to get fired on national television? After the break, proof of the power of the Donald. Plus...

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how I see it. Women are better in sales.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: OK. And what are men better at? Heidi Bessler is no longer the apprentice, but she still has some strong views about the business world. My interview with her is straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: They're lining up by the thousands. Thousands of people vying to become the next contestant on the hot reality show, "The Apprentice 2." For those who are unfamiliar with the series, 16 contestants compete to win the job of a lifetime, an apprenticeship with none other than Donald Trump.

One person who knows of that all too well is Heidi Bessler. She was given the boot on this week's episode. Well, earlier, I talked to Heidi about her experience.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: I'm going to take you back into the boardroom.

HEIDI BESSLER, THE APPRENTICE CONTESTANT: OK.

LIN: Donald Trump looks you in the eye and says, "You're fired." If had a gun in your hand, and I'm going to let you finish that sentence. I mean, what would you do?

BESSLER: Did you say if I had a gun in my hand?

LIN: At that very second, you heard those words from the man.

BESSLER: You know, at that time, when Donald Trump said "you're fired," at that moment I was relieved only because I think what really hurt me on that task was that morning I went to see my mom. And my head was not in the game. That -- everyone that knows me said Heidi, that was not the Heidi we know...

LIN: You looked mad.

BESSLER: I would -- I wasn't mad at all. I was relieved.

LIN: Really?

BESSLER: I -- normally, if you knew the normal Heidi, I would have -- first of all, I would have literally fought with Caroline and I would have stuck up for myself. And I would have won. And I would have brought up the fact that Troy strictly didn't pick Kwame because he's his friend. And I know I would have won.

LIN: Now you're talking about Caroline, Donald Trump's associate there...

BESSLER: Yes.

LIN: ...who basically said that you brought nothing to the table, that you didn't add anything to the team, that you really didn't do anything or take initiative. She was pretty tough on you.

BESSLER: OK, first of all, and I'd like to address that, you know, throughout all of the tasks, just to name a few, you know, I was a key presenter for the Marquis Jet. When I was a project manager, I led my team to success.

For the Planet Hollywood, the only reason -- one of the reasons why we won is I drove in the most sales. And also for the lemonade. So she has never said two words to me. And the first time she speaks to me, she basically criticizes me. And you know what? Maybe it's TV, but that's not how a manager in real world works. LIN: Well, you're what, like the sixth woman to get kicked off that show?

BESSLER: That's correct.

LIN: What have you learned about women in the work place and male/female dynamics then?

BESSLER: Well, you know, right now being in the corporate America, you know, I work in a male-dominated field for now. You know, I think there's -- for me, this is how I see it. Women are better in sales. And men are better -- some, I don't want them to get mad at me -- men seem to be a little bit more at ease in management. And...

LIN: But what about also getting along with each other? Because you know, it seemed like -- I don't know if it was the editing or what, but the women seemed to be going at each other. You and Omarosa were not exactly the best of friends.

BESSLER: No, no. You know you're right. I -- this is what I think is different between men and women. Men, they can get into an argument and you know, two minutes later, it rolls off their shoulder and they're like, OK, whatever, we're friends. Where women tend to hold grudges. We tend to get -- we're emotional and we'll yell at each other.

And from the Omarosa, I really -- I never got into an argument. The reason I was so mad at Omarosa is because of her work ethics. There was no reason to take a two hour lunch break. I know that restaurant Felix in Soho. It's crowded. And it just blew my mind away that her head hurt when we needed to get the work done and I just went crazy on her...

LIN: You know...

BESSLER: ...because she's lazy.

LIN: It seemed like there were a lot of stereotypes that came out about women in the work place. For example, you know, I think you guys were pretty quick to use sexuality when it came to using -- drumming up sales tactics, trying to get business, trying to project ideas.

BESSLER: You know, I understand where some -- everyone I think there's nothing wrong with using flirting and using sexuality to sell. I'm in sales, and we -- I do it every day. And there's a difference between using sexuality and crossing the line.

And even the men in our suite said if we could do it, we would do it.

LIN: So what are you going to do next? What are you going to do next, Heidi?

BESSLER: You know, I may stay in the sales field. You know, you have to strike while the iron's hot. Maybe getting into a little entertainment for a while. And who knows? Maybe I'll even work for Trump.

LIN: You think he's going to ask?

BESSLER: He'd better ask.

LIN: Did he give you an idea that he would? And what would you do?

BESSLER: I would do sales for him in a minute. But you know, it's so funny because I realize with this experience, there's so much out there. And I mean one of the things I'm really good at is sales and people. And just got to have fun with this.

LIN: Yes.

BESSLER: And obviously, I'm a money hungry girl, so.

LIN: Well, you had America sold there, Heidi. So good luck to you. It was fun to watch. I thought it was.

BESSLER: Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: She's a riot. So who should be the last apprentice standing? We're going to have some of your views on the contestants after the break. You've been ringing our phone off the hook.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: You probably know how to get to Sesame Street, but can you tell me how to get to Pancake Mountain? That's a question some families in Washington, D.C. can happily answer. As Elaine Quijano tells us, the first step is to hop onto the information superhighway.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To describe Pancake Mountain as just another kids show isn't at all accurate.

For now, it's only on the Internet, an edgy, eclectic mix of music and some education. But mostly fun, complete with kids dance parties, appearances by local D.C. bands, and a cast of characters like a not so bright backstage reporter named Rufus Leaking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We play a variety of music from Go-Go...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go where? Where do you want me to go? I don't understand the hostility here because I'm just trying to do an interview and there's no need for that kind of...

QUIJANO: If you've never heard of Pancake Mountain, it's for good reason. The show's creator and producers wanted to retain its local flavor. And more importantly... SCOTT STUCKEY, CREATOR, PANCAKE MOUNTAIN: Without kind of the whole promotional stuff or trying to sell anything, so the kids can kind of have fun and learn about their community and see friends of theirs.

JEORGE SEDER, PRODUCER, PANCAKE MOUNTAIN: If had kids, I would want to sit down and watch this show with them. I would enjoy the show just as much as they did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know we all agree on this show we would never sell this kind of cheap commercial products.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, especially something as ugly as this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And heavy. This could really hurt somebody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheap merchandising.

QUIJANO: The show began as just a handful of skits a few months ago and grew to a more elaborate production, paid for mostly by its creator with the help of borrowed equipment and time. The kids involved show up with their parents, eager to perform.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today I'm just doing my thing, being wild.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm (UNINTELLIGIBLE) really a lot. I won a dance contest twice at my school.

QUIJANO: As for the future, the producers hope their recipe stirs up interest from either cable access or a local D.C. TV station. So the can serve up Pancake Mountain to an even bigger audience.

Elaine Quijano, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Well, that's it from us. Thanks for joining us. And update on the day's top stories in just a few minutes. But first, here are some of your answers to tonight's last call question.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CALLER: I think Amy should win on "The Apprentice" because she is the sharpest player that was on the show the whole time.

CALLER: I would like Bill to win.

CALLER: I think Amy should win. She's really the smartest person out there.

CALLER: I'm almost ashamed to admit, but I've watched every single episode of "The Apprentice" and find it usually entertaining. And Donald Trump, actually, eminently likable, despite being born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Katrina, I think should win.

CALLER: Kwame should definitely win on "The Apprentice." CALLER: I think that Troy should win "The Apprentice."

CALLER: It should be Nick. He's the most energetic, most deserving, most enthusiastic and spontaneous member that deserves the position with Mr. Donald Trump.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Pittsburgh Firefighters Killed in the Line of Duty>