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CNN Live Sunday

Controversy Over Stem Cell Research Continues

Aired July 15, 2001 - 17:08   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
STEPHEN FRAZIER, CNN ANCHOR: A snapshot today of public attitudes on medical research using embryonic stem cells, and the snapshot reflects the intense debate over this practice. CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup Poll asked whether the government should fund this research -- 30 percent of those surveyed said yes, a large percentage was unsure, and the majority of people questioned, 54 percent, said stem cell research is morally wrong.

CNN political -- senior political correspondent Candy Crowley explains the dilemma.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We are talking about science that cannot be seen with the naked eye and ethics that require a search of the soul. We are talking about science that boggles the mind and politics that touch the heart.

SEN. GORDON SMITH (R), OREGON: Well, as a little boy, I watched my grandmother Udall die of Parkinson's. I watched my cousin, Maurice Udall, die of Parkinson's. Last couple of months ago, my uncle Addison Udall died of Parkinson's. And last weekend, my brother-in- law told me he had Parkinson's.

CROWLEY: We are talking about taking stem cells from embryos for research that scientists believe might lead to progress against some of life's cruelest diseases: Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, cancer and diabetes. But we are also talking about the destruction of the embryo.

RICHARD DOERFLINGER, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: Take a look at any embryology textbook, it'll tell you that the life of each human being begins at fertilization. What we're debating now is whether the government should divide human life into different classes, some of which have value and should receive treatment, some of which are disposable and should be killed for treatment.

CROWLEY: The Catholic Church leadership and many abortion opponents are as opposed to the destruction of embryos for research as they are to abortion. Gordon Smith, a practicing Mormon, an abortion opponent, looked to his religion, his Bible and his life as he struggled with the issue.

SMITH: For me, it has forced the ultimate question: when does life begin? And I believe life begins in a mother's womb, not in a Petri dish of a scientist.

CROWLEY: Others departing from the fold on this one: the conservatives' conservatives. Strom Thurmond also favors the use of federal funds. He has a daughter with juvenile diabetes. And Utah senator Orrin Hatch, who believes there may be enough senators who favor the idea to force the issue even if the president is opposed.

CROWLEY: For Gordon Smith and some of his colleagues, this one is personal.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRAZIER: We are going to spend some more time on this now with Dr. Jeffrey Rothstein, professor of neurology and neuroscience at the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and Dr. Bob Orr, director of ethics at the University of Vermont college of medicine in Burlington. Gentlemen, welcome to you both, thank you both for joining us.

Dr. Rothstein, let's turn to you first, if we may. You are working with ALS, otherwise known as Lou Gehrig's disease, and trying to find out how it is that cells die in the brain and whether new cells could be introduced into the brain to replace them. Is that correct?

DR. JEFFREY ROTHSTEIN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: That's correct. ALS is a progressive nerve-degenerative disease, where the motor neurons, the cells that control muscles, generally die slowly. The disease is invariably fatal. There is no treatment that stops this disease. We have only one drug approved by the FDA that slightly slows the disease.

FRAZIER: But once those cells die, they are gone?

ROTHSTEIN: That's right. Any neural injury that involves damage to the brain involves the death of cells, and our brains, for the most part, are not capable of regeneration, so only replacement of cells offers a real potential cure for a patient that has ALS.

FRAZIER: And you are working with that with animals now, is that correct?

ROTHSTEIN: We are. We are working in a very comprehensive program to identify which stem cells actually might be effective. First, on animal models, and if the research is successful, then to move to patients.

FRAZIER: Now, let's bring in Dr. Orr here, who objects to this, in part because, doctor, I understand you say that there are other sources rather than embryos for this kind of stem cell research?

DR. BOB ORR, CLINICAL ETHICIST: That's right. I very much support Dr. Rothstein and others who are trying to correct and cure these very horrendous diseases. The moral issue is about how are we doing this and what's the source of the cells. And there is a spectrum of right and wrong. I mean, the most ethically troublesome is creating a human life in order to destroy it in the process of research, as was announced at the Johns Institute just this last week. Next most troublesome is taking human embryos that have been frozen that are no longer wanted or needed and destroying them in the process. And then, the next step is using already destroyed human life from a fetus.

But what I think is the more appropriate way is to look at the ethically positive side and take adult human stem cells from core blood or from bone marrow or from fat, and use that in the research, because there have been some very early promising results in this area.

FRAZIER: Do we know whether they are as good as embryonic stem cells, as effective in regenerative power?

ORR: Dr. Rothstein...

ROTHSTEIN: I would be happy to answer that.

ORR: That's right. He'd be in a better position than I.

ROTHSTEIN: In fact, that's one of the most important questions that faces us. There are users -- my colleagues are some of those who generate stem cells, such as Dr. John Gierhardt (ph) at John Hopkins. I view myself as a user. In fact, stem cells are almost like different drugs.

And we have these -- these large groups of different drugs. We've got adult cells, as Dr. Orr has mentioned, that come from a variety of sources, and we have got the embryonic cells. And we have heard from many scientists about the different potential of those cells. When it comes down to the disease, which are the best cells, which are the ones that we pick for the disease?

And quite frankly, the only way we'll understand that is if we actually try each and every one of those cells in a given model of disease. And in fact, we are doing that right now in our ALS studies. And further more, I can tell you now that we do know that some of the embryonic stem cells are better in real disease models. They are better than the adult cells.

FRAZIER: Doesn't this introduce then, doctor, that we are on that very difficult issue now of how we might harm some individuals -- if you consider these embryos to be individuals -- in order to make life better for others? We've been here before in other ways, isn't this just another variation on that old argument?

ROTHSTEIN: I would actually disagree. I don't think we're -- these are tissues that have -- if you are talking about -- that would be extreme, not the adult tissues -- in fact, we even have harm when we remove tissues from adults. It's painful to have a bone marrow biopsy. It's painful to donate muscle tissue.

But the fact is, these are donated cells. These are cells that have been donated for research purposes. And I for one, and I know other bioethics institutes and our government does not -- at least, the FDA -- does not view these as human beings.

FRAZIER: All right. Now, Dr. Orr, if -- you mentioned along your spectrum of harm some of those cells which are going to be discarded anyway. Doesn't it make more sense to try to help somebody with those, rather than just putting them into the waste bin?

ORR: Well, certainly I want to help people in whatever way we can, as long as we don't break any ethical rules in the process.

And I view a frozen embryo that is no longer intended to be implanted for pregnancy, that is a human individual who is in the process of dying, such as an elderly person with Alzheimer's disease. We know she is going to die, but we wouldn't say, well, we know they are going to die, so therefore let's take their organs and use them. We are really talking about human life here.

FRAZIER: Well, we have talked about it at too brief a length, because there is so much we could say, but I'm grateful to you both for you joining us today. Dr. Rothstein, Dr. Orr, thank you.

ROTHSTEIN: Thank you.

ORR: Thank you, Stephen.

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