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CNN Live Sunday
What Lies Ahead in China's Future?
Aired July 29, 2001 - 17:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
STEPHEN FRAZIER, CNN ANCHOR: Secretary of State Colin Powell is on the last leg of his Asia Pacific tour. He arrived in Canberra, Australia today. He's there to discuss the mutual defense treaty that includes Australia, and New Zealand, and the United States.
On his way to Canberra, Powell talked about yesterday's meeting with Chinese officials in Beijing, where, among other things, he says China is already responding on a positive note to U.S. appeals to China to end its interception and pursuits of American reconnaissance flights.
Another positive development from Powell's visit to Beijing: in the coming weeks, the U.S. and China are expected to resume a dialogue on human rights. That issue was at the top of the agenda when Secretary Powell sat down with Chinese leaders, and it continues to stir debate in the United States.
Joining us to talk more about these relations and in particular about U.S. investment in China now are Harry Wu, a human rights activist in Washington now, and from Chicago, Siva Yam with the U.S./China Chamber of Commerce. Gentlemen, welcome to you both. Thank you for joining us.
Mr. Yam, you have said before about this that you don't believe China responds to outside pressure, that it that only works on something like human rights issues when it reforms from within?
SIVA YAM, U.S.-CHINA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Yes.
FRAZIER: Would you elaborate on that?
YAM: Well, if you look at the history of China, China was superior to the rest of the world prior to 19th century, and all of a sudden in the 19th century and early 20th century, China was subordinated to a foreign invasion. China was colony, was humiliated. And then, we saw nationalism in China, the new China where -- a China that would be not subordinated to outside sources.
As a result, if we impose economic sanctions, impose a lot of pressure on China, it is not going to fruitful, because the Chinese government would do whatever it takes to generate a high level of nationalism -- and due to the fact that China is big, and even though the economic development is relatively slow to other developed countries, but China still has a lot of resources. And if we look at the history of China, and it's a culture that people try to be self-sufficient. So, a Chinese we'll do based on what he thinks is beneficial to the country. It will not kowtow to outside people.
FRAZIER: An important phrase there. Let's hang on to that thought now and bring in Mr. Wu who believes actually exactly the opposite. Mr. Wu, in your own experience, you believe that China, in effect, plays hostages with, for example, scholars, like the type who were released just before the secretary's visit, and you believe it does respond to outside pressure, as it demonstrated just before Secretary Powell arrived.
HARRY WU, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I totally disagree with what Mr. Yam said that Chinese do not care about international pressure. We have to know this current example, these Chinese scholars, American scholars, under the pressure, Clinton -- oh no, I'm sorry, President Bush make a call and they released it. And event this has violated their own law.
You have to know today that people in China have no faith, no trust, no credit, no confidence to communist regime. And this country today is maintained as a communist regime, and I don't think it will become permanent. That Mr. Yam said it means that government should be permanent, but I want to say China is in the crossroads of history.
The thing that happened in Moscow in 1991 could happen in China very soon. The Berlin Wall peacefully collapsed. It happened, and it could happen in China very soon. That's why the Chinese -- Chinese really need the West, need America to support them financially.
FRAZIER: So, in a sense -- and financial support also means trade, which is what got us here today to talk about that. Would you believe, Mr. Wu, that engagement on a trade basis is a good thing then?
WU: Well, the people say engaged by money, by technology, by financial, by trade is promoting democracy, promoting human rights, you know, in China. I want to tell these American businessmen, you should be honest -- you are business, not charity. You want to make money, you are looking for a lucrative market, you are looking for cheap labor forces, that's fine. Make money.
But don't tell the people this is the way, the best way to improve democracy in China. It's not true. Actually, your money and your technology is just a blood transfusion to this dying communist regime.
FRAZIER: Mr. Yam, it seems a pretty harsh indictment of American business seeking to do business there.
YAM: Well, and before -- and I want to clarify my position: I'm not saying that China is not sensitive to outside force, I'm saying that China will not kowtow, yield to outside force, and China will do whatever it takes to preserve the control of the country by the Communist Party. So, and it would do things based on that. Second is to address Mr. Wu's comments. Yes, we are all businessmen and we do business, it's not for a charitable purpose. And U.S. companies need to make some money. In China, they are seeing the largest emerging market in the world. Where there's a market right now -- and that's a different use of it -- and it does represent a lot of potential. And with 1.3 billion people and they have huge, cheap labor pool. And this will be beneficial for U.S. company to get engaged with China.
And by doing business with China, and the byproduct is to push the country into a more democratic society. Economic sanctions will have big problem. Number one, I think it's almost impossible to implement effective economic sanctions against China, because China is big and you have a lot of trading partners with China, and you have Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore...
(CROSSTALK)
YAM: Second, is by imposing economic sanctions on China, will push the country into -- and the society is highly unstable. Anything that would destabilize China would have a negative impact. Chinese economy is very fragile, and even though they have 8 percent growth a year, but it's a very fragile economy.
I was in China in April, and I felt the slowdown in the economy. Economic sanctions would destabilize the country by creating unemployment and widening the gap between the wealthy and the poor. In an unstable society, coupled with a one-party system, you are going to see more abuses in human rights. And the other...
FRAZIER: All right. Mr. Wu would like to weigh in on it with some thoughts on that, let's give him a chance to do that now.
WU: Well, in China, the most instability factor is the communist regime, communist government. It's not like the people or the international economists' involvement, whatever. OK?
We don't want to see a stable communist regime exist in China. I think everybody agrees with it. OK? Let me say it this way: if today, the international investment would pull out, stop the trade with China, the first thing that would happen in China -- of course, maybe it's a big, you know, critical situation happen, but the communist regime would get out of it.
Today is nobody talking economic sanctions. Nobody's talking about that. But what they're talking about, if Chinese violate a copyright, they will apply sanctions. But why do human rights violations happen, they are very quiet. Prosperity only can happen in a free, and open, and democratic society.
FRAZIER: Mr. Wu, I'm afraid we are going to have to let that be the last word, because we are running out of time. But let me thank you both, Harry Wu, Siva Yam, we are grateful for your comments today, and I'm sure we will be talking again as this dialogue continues between the United States and China.
Thank you both.
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