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CNN Live Sunday

Interview With Hafiz Baghban

Aired November 04, 2001 - 15:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DONNA KELLEY, CNN ANCHOR: This week, the Taliban allowed Western journalists to visit some sights within Afghanistan.

And CNN's Nic Robertson has just returned from that tour. And he joins us now from Quetta, Pakistan.

Nic, what did you see?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, very interesting insights into how the country is faring at the moment, how the people are bearing up under the bombing. Certainly in Kandahar, the streets were busier than had been in recent weeks, we are told by our staff there.

The markets, most of the stores were open. And there were a lot of products for sale. Prices of food were up, but people told us that the local currency of the Afghani had also strengthened. So anyone with money is still able to buy the same amount of food.

But people we talked to said that businesses are being affected, import, export businesses, tailoring businesses, furniture making businesses. Nobody, they say, really wants to buy anything at this time.

Now the morale on the street seemed to be higher, we were told, because the bombing had essentially subsided in the last three or four days. People felt more confident about coming out on the streets.

But also, the morale inside the Taliban seems to be high as well. Commanders there telling us they have plenty volunteers to fight. They say they've only had 15 deaths in the region and that they had no problems coping with the air campaign.

In fact, they were essentially saying they were looking forward, in some ways, to ground forces being sent in. They said they were frustrated by the bombing campaign, not able to take revenge against the bombs, but wanting to essentially take it out on American or other allied soldiers should they come in on the ground.

Also, there appears to be a very strong sense of support for the Taliban leadership at this time as well from the people inside Kandahar. And I think it's important to remember that our visit there was escorted by the Taliban. And we weren't able to visit military facilities. We were able to talk freely with people, but it was a short visit. So very much a snapshot view.

But the view of people there is that they support the Taliban leadership at the moment. At least that's what they tell us. And one of the reasons for that is because they feel like they're being the targets of this bombing campaign. They say we've seen a lot of civilian casualties. And therefore, we feel that as our government told us, we are the targets, not al Qaeda.

KELLEY: Nic, thanks very much.

We're going to go into our guests, as you know. And we've asked you to stay with us for just a couple of minutes, if you would, because he would like to chat with you, I'm sure, as well, as would I some more.

And for more on the Taliban's media strategy, we are bringing in our guest Hafiz Baghban of Manhattan Community College. He spent many years studying and living in Afghanistan.

Mr. Baghban, if you'd like to, we have had Nic Robertson stay around. If you'd like to ask him a question about his recent tour in Afghanistan?

HAFIZ BAGHBAN, MANHATTAN COMMUNITY COLLEGE: Well, I'd not thought about asking him a question. I was really more prepared for answering questions.

KELLEY: OK. Well, we'll go through that. Nic was escorted, but not censored in what he could say or see when he was in Afghanistan. What do you think about this tour? Do you think it was -- the Taliban don't believe in television. They've smashed TVs. And yet, it looks like that they have learned that it's probably a useful propaganda tool?

BAGHBAN: Of course, they do that for publicity. When it brings information, when television brings information to the people of Afghanistan, they say it is banned. But when it's serves a political purpose, they take the journalists. And they show the journalists what they want.

The problem is that even when you talk with the Taliban, you only see the surface, who are the Taliban. All ethnic groups, the Uzbeks, the Tajiks, the Turkmens, the Shias, the Sunnis, all have included in this group of Taliban, who are, you know, brought difficulty on Afghanistan.

KELLEY: Nic -- let me bring in Nic Robertson, our reporter still with us. Nic, did you feel that you were certainly we know escorted, but not particularly censored in what you could say or see? Did you feel that you were seeing fresh damage? We know that there's been war in Afghanistan for about 20 years. Were you certain that this was fresh damage and that what you were seeing was accurate and that people were very free to talk to you though? Or were they careful in what they said to you?

ROBERTSON: I visited Kandahar on many occasions in the last few years. So certainly, the damage that I was looking at inside the city, I was able to see that this was fresh damage. One bomb fell the first night we arrived. And we were able to go and see the house that it hit the next morning. And it was very clear that that was fresh damage as well.

So I'm confident that what we were seeing was new. I'm also confident that what we were able to see as we drove along, a tank by the side of the main road, for example, armored personnel carriers hidden out in the mountains, anti-aircraft guns hidden under the trees just outside the city. All these things we saw and we were certainly free to report on.

What we couldn't do was go to military bases. But were the people free to talk to us? On our third day of our trip there, we went out to the market in the center of the town without a Taliban escort. We took our own translator, a translator we've worked with for a long time now. Somebody who we've come to trust and somebody who certainly understands how important it is for journalists to be impartial, unbiased and hear the honest views and opinions of the people.

And certainly I feel from that point of view, the views that people expressed to us, and there were many, many people who talked to us and came up to us quite freely to put their points across, were free views. But has to be said that most of those views were from the Taliban point of view. Kandahar, let's not forget, is the Taliban heartland. It is their stronghold. And it is where one would expect them to have lot of support. As our guests have said, there are many others. The Hazaras, the Uzbeks, the Tajiks and many others inside Afghanistan. They don't live -- tend to live in the Kandahar area. So we weren't able to speak with those communities.

KELLEY: All right, Nic Robertson in Quetta, Pakistan. Thank you for hanging on with us for the extra minutes. And we appreciate it. And we'll be talking to you again.

Mr. Baghban, the Taliban, not a huge force in Afghanistan as you've explained to us before. With such small numbers, how did they get such control?

BAGHBAN: Well, that is really at the heart of the whole problem. Yes, how did they get such control? If you look at the Taliban and all of Afghanistan, the mosques of all ethnic groups -- we don't have more than 2,000 Talis (ph). How did they form such an army that took over the country? How did they get supplies? Military supplies, food, clothes, salaries? And how did they, all of a sudden, organize? The Taliban have never been organized before as a political and military force. How did they organize?

KELLEY: What's your theory on that? You think there's some other state sponsorship here?

BAGHBAN: Of course.

KELLEY: What do you think? BAGHBAN: Of course there are. I am very certain that Pakistan's hand was in organizing the Taliban from the beginning and it still is. Right now, where do the Taliban get ammunition? Where do they get food? Iran doesn't send them. Central Asia doesn't send them. And they don't have a whole lot themselves.

KELLEY: Since you think it's partly Pakistan, is it possible too with Osama bin Laden being in the country that he's provided some financial support?

BAGHBAN: In truth, I read an article yesterday. It was I think "Washington Post," where a journalist was describing that the voters of Pakistan are one kind of voter in daytime and another kind of voter at nighttime. At nighttime, the eye is eye. And the officials of Pakistan are sending oil, sending ammunition, sending food to the Taliban.

KELLEY: We watch to wait and see how this goes on. We have to let you go to our sister network, CNN International as well. Hafiz Baghban, who is with the Manhattan Community College, thank you so very much. We appreciate you being with us since you've met for many years in Afghanistan.

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