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CNN Live Sunday

Peter Bergen Discusses Osama bin Laden

Aired November 11, 2001 - 15:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now for more inside on Osama bin Laden is CNN terrorism analyst, Peter Bergen. He's also the author of the new book "Holy War, Inc." inside the secret world of Osama bin Laden. Thanks for being with us this hour. We should say also that, Peter, you also met with Osama bin Laden a couple of years ago and we heard Hamid Mir say that he doesn't believe that Osama bin Laden has nuclear capabilities. You've been studying this for quite some time. What do you think?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, let me -- let me tell you what we know. We know that bin Laden sought to acquire bomb grade uranium in 1993 in Sudan. We also know that bin Laden's people experimented with cyanide gas. They gassed goats with cyanide and also used a combination of sulfuric acid and cyanide in their Afghan training camps as recently as three years ago.

So this is a group that has certainly made efforts to acquire bomb grade uranium and has certainly experimented in an amateur way with chemical weapons. Bin Laden himself has repeatedly called for saying it's not a crime if we get these kinds of weapons. I think it would be wishful thinking of the first order to assume that he doesn't have some kind of capability.

Of course, there's a huge leap from trying to buy some kind of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) materials and having nuclear weapons. I would imagine what is much more likely is some kind of -- is that they've acquired some kind of uranium material that might be used in what is known as a "dirty nuclear bomb" which is a truck bomb with uranium waste or that kind of thing, or maybe some very low grade chemical weapon.

CALLAWAY: It was interesting to hear the Pakistani journalist, Hamid Mir, talk about his experience in meeting with Osama bin Laden and how he was taken and wrapped in a blanket. Is this similar to what you underwent?

BERGEN: Yeah. I mean, they track very closely. It was -- we weren't wrapped in blankets, but we were blindfolded, we were taken at night, we were transferred between vehicles, there was quite a lot of security. This, bear in mind, was in 1997, and obviously, the security around bin Laden is much more intense now, but it tracks very closely with the kind of experience that we had.

CALLAWAY: And Peter, we heard them say that he's informed every 15 minutes or so on what the situation is. You were there. You've seen the type of place where bin Laden stays. Can you tell me how can he be so informed on what is going on? He does seem well informed of the air campaign and other news events going on.

BERGEN: I think a couple of things. First to the voice of America, you know, the city's heard all over Afghanistan. It's I think the most popular way of getting the news in Afghanistan. So anybody with a radio can have access to news. Bin Laden himself is quite well informed. You've seen the interview with Hamid Mir, the Pakistani journalist, conducted with him. He was aware of President Bush's recent statements.

So here's a guy who tries to keep very well informed. I don't think that he's obviously not watching CNN, but he is certainly getting radio reports and he's certainly getting couriers telling him the news and he is somebody who has always had a strong interest in international affairs and what's happening. And clearly, at this point, he has a strong interest because he's trying to stay alive.

CALLAWAY: He seems very wise on how he uses the media. Were you surprised at this recent interview?

BERGEN: I was a little surprised for the following reason. It just seems that since our circumstance about security, why introduce a journalist and with all the security concerns of any outsider, but clearly bin Laden feels confident enough to give interviews, which is sort of a departure. It's certainly the first interview he's given since the Trade Center events.

CALLAWAY: He mentioned sort of a u-turn in his feelings on Americans. Do you think this is propaganda on Osama bin Laden perhaps using the media?

BERGEN: I -- when I -- I mean I've read the whole interview. You know, he's got a sort of a bit of a u-turn, but it's not that big of a u-turn. I mean, we're going to read you something that I think is sort of important. The American people should remember that they pay taxes to their government, they elect their President, their government manufactures arms and gives them to Israel and Israel uses them to massacre Palestinians.

So, I mean, he may on the one hand say, you know, this is not, you know, the roster of American people who are good. On the other hand, if you look at the rest of the interview, it's still I think pretty strong against not only the American government but also American civilians.

CALLAWAY: We heard -- you just talked to us a bit about some of the capabilities that he has, but he's denied any Anthrax capabilities. What are your thoughts on that?

BERGEN: Well, it's interesting. I mean, if he's saying that he has certain things and he's not saying that he has other things, then let's just say we take him at face value, which I think is not a bad approach. Or he's indicating that he doesn't have biological weapons. There is -- I mean, on the public record, there is no -- nothing to show that the organization does have biological weapons.

Bin Laden has said we should acquire them, but that is, you know, quite a difficult thing to obtain. One thing I'd like to add. Mohammed Atta, if you remember was one of the lead hijackers in the Trade Center, did try and look into crop dusting planes in this country, which could have been a method to disburse of biological agents. So certainly, their actions suggest that there's interest in these kinds of things, but it is quite another thing to manufacture this kind of thing.

CALLAWAY: And Peter, we've heard some reports today about some more friction developing perhaps between the Taliban and the leaders of the al-Qaeda network.

BERGEN: I don't know. I mean, I just think that's wishful thinking. It -- Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, and bin Laden have a very close relationship. In fact, bin Laden has sworn an oath of allegiance to Mullah Omar. Mullah Omar has the power to finish -- end this war tomorrow, hand over bin Laden if he feels like it. Clearly he does not. I think the notion that there is some friction is wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

CALLAWAY: This would not end with the death of Osama bin Laden's complicated network?

BERGEN: I don't think so. I mean, well, if bin Laden magically disappeared off the face of the planet tomorrow, and the top leadership of al Qaeda, and/or the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan were closed, that would have a significant impact. That will take some time.

Nonetheless, there would still be people opposed to middle- eastern -- American polices in the Middle East. That will mean that possibly terrorism in the future. But without the al Qaeda leadership, I think the ability to pull off these very complex and sophisticated operations does change.

CALLAWAY: All right. Peter Bergen, CNN terrorism expert. Thank you for joining us. Also author of the book "Holy War, Inc." Thank you Peter.

BERGEN: Thank you.

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