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CNN Live Sunday

Scientists Successfully Clone Human Embryo

Aired November 25, 2001 - 18:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DONNA KELLEY, CNN ANCHOR: More this hour on the scientific first in the controversial field of cloning. Scientists at Advanced Cell Technology, Inc. say that they have successfully created human embryos through cloning. The company's president says the intent is to use therapeutic cloning to treat diseases like Parkinson's and diabetes. They do not intend to create human beings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL WEST, PRES., ADVANCED CELL TECHNOLOGY: We felt that it's so much more urgent to rapidly go and try to help these people who are sick, and the concern about cloning of humans, given that we have regulations in the United States that prevent that, we felt that we should go forward and publish these scientific results so scientists can have this data.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLEY: And for more on this cloning breakthrough, let's turn to CNN's medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. Once again, Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Donna, let's talk about why this potentially -- and I use the word potentially very carefully -- could be such a medical breakthrough. What they've done here at Advanced Cell Technologies -- and that's in Wooster, Massachusetts -- is they have taken human beings alive here on earth, they have taken their DNA, and they have made little embryos that are clones of those human beings.

They used two different technologies in order to do that. What they did, for example, was they took the skin from an adult -- you can see the adult there on the side -- and they put it into an egg that had been hollowed out. In other words, the egg no longer had its own DNA. They took the DNA from this person. They then supplied a jolt of electricity, and for some reason -- and it's not completely understood why -- this electricity makes that egg with the new DNA in it become an embryo. It makes it divide so that it becomes an embryo.

Now once it's an embryo, theoretically it could then be implanted into a woman to start a pregnancy. Now, as we've said before, they have absolutely no intention of creating a pregnancy from these embryos. Again, these embryos are a genetic duplicate of a human being already here on earth, and if put into a woman's womb could become a baby if you waited nine months. However, this company says they're not going to do that. Instead, what they're going to do is they're going to keep these embryos at the microscopic stage and create therapies from them, because what you could do is you could take the stem cells from inside these microscopic embryos and create tailor-made treatments.

Let's say, for example, I needed a liver transplant. I could search around for a genetic match, but if they could take my stem cells, if they could create an embryo from me, pull out the stem sells and create a liver, that liver would be a genetic perfect match for me, and then you would having to find a match. This is all many, many years down the road, but that is potentially the promise that this therapy could bring.

KELLEY: And instead of sperm, they use electricity?

COHEN: Exactly. If you use sperm, then you introduce a whole other person's DNA, and the whole point here is to keep this down to one person's DNA. So, the electricity in a way sort of acted like sperm. It made that egg become an embryo; an embryo that if implanted into a woman's womb theoretically could become a baby.

KELLEY: All right, Elizabeth Cohen, thanks very much.

As we carry on here, joining us now is Carol Ezzell. She is the editor of "Scientific American" magazine who observed the scientists at Advanced Cell Technology for several months.

Carol, thanks very much for joining us. Did I pronounce your last name right?

CAROL EZZELL, EDITOR, "SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN": Ezzell, yes.

KELLEY: OK, great, thank you.

When you were there, you spent like 18 months in the lab with the scientists. What did you see? What fascinated you the most?

EZZELL: Well, actually, I should point out I'm not the editor of "Scientific American," I'm an editor, so I'm one of several editors. And I was actually with them for one of the attempts where they were micro-injecting the eggs under the microscope with ovarian cells from an ovary, not skin cells.

KELLEY: Now, they had a lot of failures along with this success that they are claiming now. What were their concerns? They obviously, as the CEO says, Dr. West says, "they just want to help sick people." That was his quote earlier today with Wolf Blitzer. In addition to that, though, what were their concerns ethically? Did they have some concerns here that they actually talked about with you?

EZZELL: They seemed to be very concerned about the ethic and moral implications of the research, to the extent that a couple years ago they convened a board of outside ethicists and lawyers and fertility researchers to come up with an ethics advisory board to help guide them in these decisions. One of the ethical considerations has to do with donating the eggs. The women who actually will be asked -- the women who are actually having the eggs -- their eggs taken from their ovaries to be used in the research.

KELLEY: What about -- you know, they published the research. Are they concerned that somebody else will get a hold of it and will clone a human being? They say they don't want to, but what about others?

EZZELL: Actually, they had -- the ethical discussion is continued in the article in "Scientific American," that we have a side bar by the chairman of the ethics advisory board, Ron Green from Dartmouth.

And as far the risk of making a human baby, a living, breathing, walking human from the embryos -- this six-cell embryo is very early. The normal stage in human reproduction where the embryo attaches to the wall of the uterus and actually starts to grow is quite farther down the road. It's more of 100, 200 cell stage.

KELLEY: Carol, Elizabeth Cohen, our medical correspondent, also has some questions for you, too. She's going to join in with us.

COHEN: Carol, you watched these scientists at work, and you watched them do what they did to get to the point where they can publish an article. You saw how much effort went into it. Do you get the feeling that if the scientists sit down, they read the articles that are published about this, they read what's in your journal, will it be easy for them to reproduce -- no pun intended -- what these scientists did, or do you think it's going to be very hard for another group to do what these scientists have done?

EZZELL: Well, cloning is as much of an art as it is a science. And that's sort of the appreciation I got as I watched them try. And so, just having the recipe, as it were, in the scientific journal is not going to necessarily give researchers around the world anymore information than they already had. It's just a matter of trial and error. And to have skill and actually doing the micro-injection process and nurturing the eggs, the micro-injected eggs to develop.

COHEN: You know, many people have asked me today, well, gosh, these scientists at Advanced Cell Technology say they have no intention of ever, ever, ever making a baby. How do we know that they are telling the truth? How do we know that back in their lab somewhere they do have plans to clone a human being? You spent time with them, how would you answer that question?

EZZELL: I think the three major individuals involved, Mike West, Bob Lanza (ph) and Jose Sebelli (ph) are pretty very honorable people, and I take them at their word. People can break their words, that's for sure, but there's also no incentive for them to try to make babies using reproductive cloning.

What they hope to be able to do is therapeutic cloning, and that's the whole aim and purpose of Advanced Cell Technology. KELLEY: Carol, are they worried that Congress will stop them? The House has already banned it, the Senate did not take it up. Some states have already banned it. Do they think that they'll get stopped in their tracks?

EZZELL: That is a concern. There's more of a concern that they've expressed to me is that the issue won't be considered rationally -- or maybe rationally isn't the word, but it won't be given the amount of consideration it deserves before people just become scared and unilaterally decide to ban therapeutic as well as reproductive cloning. It's important to remember that they are -- and in our "Scientific American" article they say that human reproductive cloning to make a baby is unwarranted at this time.

COHEN: Now, Carol, the House of Representatives already voted by quite a wide margin against any kind of cloning, whether it's to come up with new medical therapies or whether it's to clone a human being. The Senate has yet to take it up. Do you get the feeling that Advanced Cell Technology has any thoughts of how to lobby the Senate so that they wouldn't outlaw therapeutic cloning? Do they have any plans for how to do that?

EZZELL: Well, they are a very small company, so I don't think they have any lobbying position per se. I know Mike West, the president and CEO of the company, has testified at the congressional hearings that have considered the whole human cloning issue, including therapeutic cloning. And I -- yeah.

KELLEY: All right. Carol Ezzell, who's an editor of "Scientific American" magazine. It was sure nice to have you join us. Thanks very much.

EZZELL: Thank you so much.

KELLEY: Well, the White House today made it clear that President Bush is 100 percent opposed to today's development. Joining us now with more, CNN White House correspondent Major Garrett -- Major.

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Donna, 100 percent opposed -- it can't get any clearer than that. That's the president's position. It's been his position throughout his presidency.

You know, the White House supported that House move to ban all human cloning, and it also has supported legislation, or rather, opposed legislation, that would allow just for just research of human cloning, that is to say create clones for exactly the purpose that Advanced Cell Technology says it wants to create them -- not to create a human being, but to create cells that can be used therapeutically to treat future diseases. The White House is absolutely opposed to that as well.

In a statement of administration policy released during the entire stem cell debate, you'll recall, in the summer, the White House said: "The moral and ethical issues posed by human cloning are profound and cannot be ignored in the quest for scientific discovery" -- Donna. KELLEY: All right, Major Garrett at the White House, thanks very much.

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