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CNN Live Sunday

Interviews With Hassan Abdel Rahman, Alon Pinkas

Aired December 02, 2001 - 16:27   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DONNA KELLEY, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get more reactions to this wave of deadly Middle East violence and some perspective on the prospects for peace in this highly charged atmosphere. We are joined now from New York by Hassan Abdel Rahman. He's chief PLO representative to the United Nations. Mr. Rahman, good to have you join us again. Thank you very much.

HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PLO REP. TO U.N.: Thank you.

KELLEY: Can you tell us any more about the arrests that we're hearing about now, 50 in custody, 150 more by Monday morning that Mr. Arafat is talking about?

RAHMAN: Well, the Palestinian Authority is taking a very unprecedented drastic measures to bring the perpetrators of those tragic events in the last two days to justice, and control the violence.

But I must reiterate that those measures by themselves are not going to succeed unless there is a change in the behavior of the Israeli army and the Israeli government in the Palestinian territories. If Israel continues its assassination policy of community and political leaders, if it continues its settlement activities in the territories, if it continues the siege of the Palestinian towns and villages, making the life of the Palestinian people impossible -- this is not going to be conducive toward the kind of environment that is needed for us to succeed in our effort.

KELLEY: President Bush has said...

RAHMAN: We need Israeli cooperation.

KELLEY: President Bush has said that no cause justifies the action that has happened. And you talk about life being made impossible, how do you fix that without resorting to violence?

RAHMAN: What I'm saying is, I am not trying to justify. I'm trying here to explain the environment that has been created by Israel over the last 35 years, and in particular in the last 14 months, where more than 1,000 Palestinians were killed.

This is not the kind of behavior of Israel that is conducive toward constructive behavior. We are calling on Israel to stop treating the Palestinians as a security issue, because this is not a security issue. This is an issue that has to do with three million people living under foreign military occupation. You cannot enslave three million people for 35 years and not expect them to react.

Therefore, we are interested in bringing this cycle of violence to an end...

KELLEY: And what do you want to do? What are you going to do to help that along?

RAHMAN: We are -- what the Authority is doing is to arrest those who are responsible. It took the drastic measure of the state of emergency. It declared anyone who would take any action similar to that an outlaw, he and his organization. But we want simple steps from the Israeli side so we can succeed in our effort and go back to the negotiating table.

Let me warn here that if Mr. Sharon uses those tragic and horrific events as a pretext for him to implement his agenda in the West Bank and Gaza by increasing Jewish settlements and continuing his aggression against the Palestinians, none of us is going to succeed, neither Mr. Sharon or the Authority, in trying to achieve an end to violence.

KELLEY: Mr. Rahman, there are those who have wondered out-loud whether or not Chairman Arafat has the power to control all of the groups. Some say that's impossible. You could never have control over everyone. But can he get things under control and stop the violence so that you can get back to the negotiating table?

RAHMAN: In order to achieve that, Yasser Arafat is the elected leader of the Palestinian people. He has prestige and he has power. There are two difficulties that he is facing. One is logistical, because remember that the Palestinian territories are under Israeli occupation. The Israeli army is in every single town and village of the West Bank and Gaza, cutting off roads, making it impossible to move the Palestinian security forces from one area to the other.

Adding to that that in the last 14 months Israel has targeted the Palestinian police stations and the security apparatus of the Palestinian Authority, thus debilitating the ability of the Palestinian police to carry on its functions.

The second is political. Through the practices of Israel, through the aggression committed by the Israeli army and the brutality of the Israeli army in the Palestinian territory, there is a great deal of anger, frustration. Those two issues need to be addressed so Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority can do the job.

KELLEY: Hassan Abdel Rahman, who is the chief PLO representative to the United States, we're very thankful for your time today. Thanks very much.

RAHMAN: Thank you. Thank you very much.

KELLEY: And now for Israeli reaction to the bombings and some insight into what's next for the peace process, we have actually confirmed that Prime Minister Sharon has convened an emergency cabinet meeting for tomorrow.

Mr. Pinkas, we're glad to have you join us as well. Thanks very much. You are the Israeli Consul General to New York.

ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL TO NEW YORK: Yes. Thank you, Donna.

KELLEY: You just heard Mr. Rahman. He said that, you know, Mr. Arafat has declared a state of emergency. They have these arrests now. They're doing what they can, but they need some reciprocal behavior and a change of behavior from Israel.

PINKAS: Yes, well, Mr. Rahman is a habitual liar to the extent that it's just unbelievable.

KELLEY: What's he lying about?

PINKAS: That they -- I'll tell you exactly in a second, Donna. The day after three suicide bombers murder 25 people, he expects Israeli to reciprocate. He expects Israel to do this. He expects Israel to exercise that, etcetera, etcetera.

Now, let me tell you something, Donna. We have submitted to Arafat a list of 114 names which then became a list of 108 suspected terrorists from the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, and some from Mr. Arafat's own Fatah Movement. They have not arrested one of them.

So, if this morning Mr. Arafat arrested tens of them, one, he is either lying. Possibility number two, they were all known and their whereabouts have been known to the Palestinian security organs, and the question is, then, why have they not been arrested in the last year?

KELLEY: Well, if they're working on the arrests now and they've declared a state of emergency, are they trying to get things under control? With the 50 arrests they say they've made now, and 150 by Monday morning?

PINKAS: Well, first of all, the term arrest, you have to understand, all your viewers, I think, understand by now, that the term arrest in the United States of America and the term arrest in the Palestinian Authority is not even in the same language, not to mention has the same meaning.

Arrest usually means what we call a revolving door hotel arrest. Someone is being locked in his house for several hours, uses the phone, meets people, invites people, goes down, goes out of the apartment, rather, to continue on his business of terrorism.

Now, I have not heard that the Palestinian authority did in fact arrest tens of people. And I'm very surprised. This is what I mean when I said that he's lying about. Mr. Abdel Rahman has absolutely no idea about anyone that's being arrested.

Now, these suicide, these steps that have been taken in response, supposedly, to the suicide attempt, clarify two things and expose two things. One, that this indeed was an action condoned by the Palestinian Authority in order to subvert and disrupt the mission of General Zinni and Assistant Secretary of State Burns, and that is why the administration and indeed the America public is so angry at the Palestinians.

Number two, I think they are just frightened of the repercussions. They have condoned terrorism for a year. This is a culture that manufactures suicide bombers. This is the same culture of anti-Israeli and anti-American sentiments. This is the same political culture that bred Osama bin Laden, and their bluff should be called.

KELLEY: Mr. Pinkas, you heard Mr. Rahman probably say with the settlements and the incursions and seizing towns and yesterday he said to me that, in an interview, that when people are hungry and jobless and you take their land, they're hard to control. And today he said that the Israelis have made life impossible for the Palestinians.

PINKAS: Yes, well, in order to address that, and in order to fix that, and because we think that he has a point in terms of the 35 years of anomaly that exist, we have convened a summit. It was called Camp David last year. It was convened by then-president Bill Clinton. A proposal was being put on the table that would have ended occupation, eliminated the closures, eliminated hunger, found economic solutions, and would have provided the Palestinians with an independent state and full sovereignty.

In fact, the Palestinians that have been killed in the last year as a result of Palestinian violence have all been killed in areas that would have been part of the Palestinian state had they said yes at Camp David. But there was one guest at Camp David, Donna, that never showed up and never said yes, and that's Mr. Arafat. And the only thing he knows how to do is to call for an emergency situation after people, who are coming from areas that he controls, being supported by organizations that he controls, perpetrate these acts of terrorism and suicide.

KELLEY: And as you can image, we try to keep your time equal, so we must leave it there. Alon Pinkas, who is the consul general of Israel to New York, our thanks to you and we appreciate you talking to us today.

PINKAS: Thank you, Donna.

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