Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Sunday

Interview With Mark Ginsberg

Aired December 02, 2001 - 18:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DONNA KELLEY, CNN ANCHOR: As the terrorism continues to strike the Middle East, a U.S. envoy struggles to bridge the gap between Israelis and Palestinians, yet some wonder -- some of the Israelis wonder -- if U.S. mediators truly understand the complexity of the situation, and if U.S. efforts will really pay off.

CNN's Jerrold Kessel has more from Jerusalem.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A message lights up on Tel Aviv's twin towers, an exhortation to raise flagging Israeli spirits. "It's in our hands," reads the slogan.

Not all Israelis are sure of the maxim. Some wonder whether it's actually in U.S. hands, as Washington begins an effort to shepherd them and Palestinians away from 14 months of incessant battles.

The man charged with that mission: retired Marine General Anthony Zinni. As he puts his first building blocks in place, Israelis see the parameters of the U.S. peace vision arching back a decade to the Madrid peace process that was initiated by the previous Bush in the White House. And discarding the approach of the subsequent Oslo peace process.

Along the Israelis border with the West Bank some -- even those from a so-called peace camp -- welcome the shift back.

SHLOMO BEN AMI, FORMER ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: One weakness of Oslo is that it was a gentlemen's agreement in a region where there is no excess of gentlemen -- I mean, the fact that it is between Israelis and Palestinians. No monitoring of agreements, no supervision, no sanctions. In ridges like these -- look at that. Look, how can you monitor? Are you going to really trust simply the good will of people? You need -- because of the complexity of the situation, you need to have international mechanisms of supervision.

KESSEL (on camera): The lay of the land here along the Israeli- Palestinian border, critical in the search for a settlement in the two sides. A major Palestinian town right on the border; just across it, major Israeli population centers in the heart of the country. And right along the border: villages right alongside each other. A Palestinian village on one side, an Israeli village on the other. And beyond, in the West Bank itself, Jewish settlements. All these, critical factors in the search for a settlement. But now stepping into this picture of the search for a settlement, perhaps an even more decisive factor: an assertive United States of America.

(voice-over): Israelis recognize that it's here where the United States could soon make demands to meet one concrete element in its peace vision: that settlement-building stop.

Still, the drive continues in major towns close to Jerusalem, in established settlements in the heart of Palestinian-populated areas. And with remote, new caravan sites.

Visrael Harel is one of the idealogues of the settler movement.

VISRAEL HAREL, SETTLER LEADER: We had those collisions since we returned 100 years ago to our homeland, with the Ottoman empire, later with the British empire and now, unfortunately, with some of Americans -- or I would say with some of the administrations that don't understand the complexity of what's going on here in the Middle East.

We'll survive it, as we have survived former pressure of American administrations.

KESSEL: Israel, even before September 11, was committed to freeze this building by its acceptance, in principle, of the Mitchell Report. Now, official Israel recognizes that that begrudging commitment may eventually be unavoidable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The part of mutual struggle against terror, we agreed; that in spite of the fact that we have all the rights to continue building the settlements, we will stop doing it the moment the terror will be stopped, and that there will be a cooling period which will prove that both sides are ready to cooperate and to work together. We are ready to do it.

KESSEL: Palestinian towns remain under tight Israeli military control. What Palestinians see only as the expression of Israeli might and dominance, Israelis want Americans to understand, reflects their reality: the uncertainty that marked their lives because they feel they can't trust Palestinian intentions.

That sense of uncertainty reflected in this bedroom community northeast of Tel Aviv. The thousand-odd families who live in Bat Haiffel (ph) moved to their semi-detached homes in the '90s, when peace was in the air. But Bat Haiffel sits cheek-by-jowl with the Palestinian town of Tol Karum (ph), beyond the wall that surrounds the Israeli village, beyond the patrols designed to ensure that any shooting by Palestinian militants won't go unanswered.

But the defenses don't set fears at rest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The American system doesn't understand the situation here in Israel. They felt it once, but we feel it every day and every night; and we don't have the security the go with the children out from Bat Haiffel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone's had enough, really, to be honest, you know.

KESSEL (on camera): Do you think the Palestinians have had enough too?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sure they have. I'm sure the majority has had enough, the suffering, you know, and I can relate to them, because I've been there myself as a soldier, years back and I know what they are going through.

KESSEL: Repairs to the electric fence around the village and real skepticism whether the U.S. can cut deftly enough across the "had enough" feeling of many Israelis and Palestinians.

(on camera): General Zinni, is coming, is going to make a cease fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And before him someone came, and before him someone came. We are the same. We have to talk between ourselves. Nothing from outside can help us.

KESSEL: This little metal replica of the Statue of Liberty reflects Israeli Jerusalem's identification with New York. It's not the stars and stripes, however, in Liberty's arms, but political stickers, opponents of any peace process who calls for Yasser Arafat and his Oslo peace partner, Shimon Perez, to be convinced for what are called the crimes of Oslo.

The tone is different, the message, similar elsewhere on the Israeli right, where there is worry the mission of General Zinni, the outsider strong man, exposes Israel's internal weakness.

YISRAEL HAREL, SETTLER LEADER: I worry not about the effect that the pro counselors here will impose, I am worried about the state of mind of Israelis that think that because we are among ourselves we can not settle, so we the gentile to come and impose a solution.

KESSEL: Precisely, says the former Israeli foreign minister.

SHLOMO BEN AMI, FORMER ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: This is one avenue to salvation in this part of the world, because the parties, in my view, are unable to reach a settlement between themselves.

KESSEL: In the face of American assertiveness, Israel's self- perceived vulnerability could, they hope, convince the U.S. not to put undue pressure on a long-time ally.

NATAN SHARANSKY, ISRAELI HOUSING MINISTER: No doubts that the struggle against terrorism becomes not only struggle of Israel, who is desperate in being (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in this part of the world, the struggle of all the free world.

KESSEL: But on the other hand, the new demonstrated world wide American strength might actually ease Israeli's concerns and make them more ready to welcome a secure U.S. umbrella.

Jerrold Kessel, CNN, Jerusalem. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KELLEY: Joining us with more on the troubles in the Middle East is Marc Ginsburg. He is with the Counsel on Foreign Relations task force on the Middle East and he has been involved with U.S. policy in the Middle East for more than 40 years and he is with us from Washington.

Ambassador Ginsburg, thanks for coming in to talk with us.

MARC GINSBURG, MIDDLE EAST ANALYST: Hi, Donna.

KELLEY: Since you have so much experience, I am hoping that you can help a lot of us understand, just in even Jerrold Kessel's report, right before you, the complexity of the situation and how this keeps breaking down.

GINSBURG: We had an agreement almost achieved between the Palestinians and Israelis under President Clinton at Camp David, and subsequently, at the very end of his administration at the top of negotiations. What happened, essentially, was that Chairman Arafat, either by default or by design, was unwilling to bring the offer back to the Palestinian people and for him to convince them that this agreement that the Israelis were proposing should be an acceptable compromise between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

From that point onward, the situation escalated beyond control and the rejectionists in the Palestinian leadership gained increasing ascendancy. Indeed right now, I am afraid, that what we have is a failure of leadership by the Palestinian Authority largely because they have failed to define for the Palestinian people, what precisely they should be accepting insofar as a Palestinian state and is in agreement with the Israeli people.

KELLEY: So, it sounds like, to me, that you are thinking that there has been some talk over this weekend. We have had a lot of folks on from both sides and from the Israeli side, they have said that Mr. Arafat does some double talk. He makes these arrests, and they go in and out the door, and while he is saying one thing with words, his actions don't follow through.

GINSBURG: That has unfortunately been the course of action since the breakdown in the negotiations and the resumption of the Intefada. So let me say that what has to be done are the following recommendations: First, because of his track record in failing to keep terrorists under arrest, those terrorists need to be arrested and extradited to a United Nations-sponsored prison outside of the Palestinian and terrorist control.

KELLEY: But they are working on that now, Ambassador Ginsburg. Over this weekend they have arrested 50 people, I think, the numbers said; 150 more people promised by tomorrow morning, including two top hamas leaders and Chairman Arafat has declared a state of emergency. Is he trying to get things back under control?

GINSBURG: It may be half-hearted. At the time that Mr. Sharon arrives back in Israel it may be too late, because there's no confidence among the Israeli public that he will keep these terrorists under arrest. He has shown as proclivity for releasing them after arresting them, and they're infiltrated back into the woodwork to resume their terrorist activities.

That's why I'm suggesting that as one of the most important ways to restore credibility by the Palestinian Authority is to have these terrorists arrested and placed under United Nations supervision.

KELLEY: Can anybody get control of those militants, though?

GINSBERG: Yes, because I also think that what Mr. Arafat is suggesting to the rest of us is that he may not have control over the streets by the Palestinian Authority itself. He may need the help of the Arab League, he may need the incentive of Egypt and of Saudi Arabia and Morocco and other countries friendly to the United States to join him in order to provide the type of peace mechanism on the ground to restore confidence and support among Palestinians who are prepared to resume negotiations.

KELLEY: Even though President Bush has said no cause justified this kind of action, the Palestinians and some of the folks that we have and even I have talked to over this weekend have said, you know, we're under occupation, you come in here, you take our land and our jobs, and people are hungry, and those folks are hard to control. And that the Israelis have made live for the Palestinians "impossible." That was a quote from one of the negotiators, Mr. Rahman, to the United States that I talked to this afternoon, that "the Israelis have made life for the Palestinians impossible."

GINSBERG: Donna, what he is saying is accurate, but that is no excuse for terrorism. And what is necessary is for the Palestinians to define not only for their own people but for the Israeli public what percentage are they prepared to accept so that sort of lays the ground work for the American effort under General Zinni to have any chance of success.

KELLEY: And what about General Zinni and Secretary Burns mission? What do you think they can do at this point?

GINSBERG: Look, General Zinni's mission is only to restore cease-fire. It doesn't have any further mission beyond that. I'm suggesting what we perhaps are going to need here is a Madrid-type of conference where indeed Mr. Arafat is brought to the table by his Arab colleagues, as well as the European Union and the secretary-general of the United Nations, and President Bush or his leading emissaries, and told that he has to define once and for all what he's prepared to accept. That's the only way that the Israeli government, as well as the Israeli public, is going to have confidence that going back to the table is going to lead to a negotiation with a settlement.

KELLEY: I've heard repeatedly from some of the Palestinian folks that I've talked to over this weekend, we want to get back to the negotiation table, let's implement the Mitchell plan, let's get back there, let's talk so we can try and work this out, but then from the Israelis they say that's all well and good and charming, but you need to stop the violence before we can even talk. So, is there an impasse there still?

GINSBERG: Donna, I think what has to -- every time I hear that argument by the Palestinian spokesmen, it reminds me of a bank robber going into a bank and shooting up all the customers and then coming back the next day and suggesting that he wants to open up an account.

The only way that we're going to get a resumption of negotiations, particularly under a right-wing government that so far -- in Israel -- that so far hasn't shown any real willingness to go back to what Prime Minister Barak had put on the table, is for the Palestinian leadership to take the responsibility to define for the Palestinian people the terms of an agreement with Israel, and they so far have failed to do so. It makes no sense to me to listen to the Palestinians suggest there has to be a negotiation, since the Israelis themselves have already defined what that agreement should be, and the Palestinians have not.

KELLEY: I want to hope to get in two quick points with you. George Mitchell, senator, former senator, who put together the Mitchell plan was on earlier with Wolf Blitzer today, and he said that there has been a complete breakdown of confidence, which you kind of repeated too, but he said: "It's never too late in the search for peace." Do you think that they can get the Mitchell plan to fly?

GINSBERG: I think that this administration perhaps needs some help. George Mitchell should be reactivated and he should be joining General Zinni, because he has the diplomatic experience and confidence of the parties to take the negotiation beyond the mere military elements of a cease-fire into a negotiated settlement.

I have one, with so many years of experience having lived in the region, the Palestinians need to have a home land, and they're entitled to an end of the occupation, and the Israelis are entitled to an end to terrorism, and both parties have no alternative but to find that negotiation track.

KELLEY: And real quickly, you know, in Jerrold Kessel's report right before you, they talked about -- they thought a majority on both sides have just had enough. Do you get that feeling that there is the will to make peace if they can just get the extremists under control?

GINSBERG: I think that if Mr. Arafat wants to get the extremists under control, he needs to reach out for help, and he can do so. And I think the Israelis, if they are convinced that he will do so, are prepared to go back to the negotiation table and negotiate in good faith.

KELLEY: Sure glad to have you join us. I know you have 40 years of experience, and it's so good to be able to talk to you. Ambassador Mark Ginsberg, who is a Middle East analyst, thank you very much.

GINSBERG: Thank you, Donna.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com