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CNN Live Sunday

Interview With Shamshad Ahmad

Aired December 30, 2001 - 18:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: More now on the flaring tensions between India and Pakistan. CNN's Tom Mintier reports that both sides are talking peace, but they're getting ready for war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Along the border between Pakistan and India, the tensions are high. Here in Pakistan, these soldiers are on patrol, lightly armed but deadly serious. Far from the front-lines, political leaders of both India and Pakistan ponder what to do next. In Islamabad, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf meets with religious and political leaders, a meeting that lasted more than seven hours, and covered not only the situation along Pakistan's border with Afghanistan, but more pressing the current tension with India.

(on camera): The meeting between the president and the political leadership was described by one Pakistani official as not an emergency meeting but an unusual meeting.

(voice-over): Unusual because it was scheduled just two days ago, in apparent effort by the military government to ensure political as well as public support if a war breaks out.

As everyone was leaving the president's house, General Musharraf himself appeared before reporters, to deliver what he called "a message he wanted to send to the people of India."

PRES. PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTAN: Pakistan stands for peace. Pakistan wants peace. Pakistan wants to reduce tension. Pakistan wants to deescalate. Let the relationship between Pakistan and India move toward peace and amity and harmony in the future. If any war is thrust on Pakistan, Pakistan armed forces and 140 million people of Pakistan are fully prepared to face all consequences with all their might.

MINTIER: The harsh words come just hours after a similar meeting in New Delhi between Prime Minister Atal Bahari Vajpayee and India's political parties. Next week, both Mr. Vajpayee and President Musharraf will travel to Nepal for a South Asian summit meeting.

I asked the Pakistani president if he would attempt to talk to the Indian prime minister sitting across the table from him.

MUSHARRAF: I certainly will be sitting across the table. I don't know which direction I'll be looking.

MINTIER: One thing its certain. Everyone will be looking at both leaders very closely. Unlike a previous summit last July that didn't go very well, these time the stakes are much higher now, and so are the tensions between two armies who have already been on the battle field three times.

If there is a next time, it will come with both India and Pakistan having weapons not available before. Both are now on the list that worries many. They both have nuclear weapons.

Tom Mintier, CNN, Islamabad, Pakistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And now joining us with more on the issues surrounding Pakistan is Shamshad Ahmad. He is the Pakistani ambassador to the United Nations. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for joining us on this Sunday evening. We appreciate it.

SHAMSHAD AHMAD, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: Pleasure.

KAGAN: I want to start with a question that I think is of most interest to Americans watching this newscast, and that is the reports that Osama bin Laden could have skipped over the border from Afghanistan into Pakistan. What can you say about those reports? Is there a good chance Osama bin Laden is in your country?

AHMAD: Well, we have been in touch with the authorities in the United States, and there is an understanding that these are mere speculations and rumors, perhaps a part of a disinformation campaign from certain quarters.

KAGAN: But are they being checked out, Mr. Ambassador? Are they going to places like Peshawar? Where are these rumors, where are the speculations say where Osama bin Laden might be?

AHMAD: Well, if he crosses into Pakistan, if at all he crosses into Pakistan, our authorities will apprehend him and treat him like a criminal.

KAGAN: And once they do that, will they turn Osama bin Laden, will Pakistani officials, if they have Osama bin Laden, turn him over to the United States?

AHMAD: I -- well, this morning our foreign minister very categorically said yes.

KAGAN: We move on then to the news of the day. This latest development, the arrest of Hafiz Mohammed Shaid (ph). He is the leader of one of the groups that India says attacked its parliament earlier this month. Was this arrest the result of President Bush putting further pressure on your government, Mr. Ambassador?

AHMAD: Well, I'm not aware about any pressure that is being put on Pakistan. KAGAN: President Bush came out on Friday and encouraged President Musharraf to further arrest and further crack down on extremists that might be having it in their mind to harm India.

AHMAD: We appreciate the constructive and positive role that President Bush is playing by seeking to diffuse the tensions between India and Pakistan. And about the apprehension of these individuals, well, we have been taking action against extremists elements within Pakistan as part of our obligations under the United Nations Security Council resolutions.

KAGAN: You mention this increasing tension. How close is your country and India to war, sir?

AHMAD: Well, the situation is very serious. India has mounted a war hysteria without realizing its consequences, and we hope that the Indian leadership will realize that even a localized, a small localized conflict can snowball into a major conflict between two nuclear-capable states, which must be prevented.

KAGAN: Which is why the world is watching so closely. India making a number of demands on your country in order to deescalate the tension. Do you think that Pakistan has done enough?

AHMAD: Well, I think it is for India to deescalate the tensions, because...

KAGAN: Do you think your country has done enough, sir?

AHMAD: Well, we have done more than enough. As far as we are concerned, first of all, the whole problem started after this terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament on 13th of December. We condemned it as reprehensible act of terrorism, and our president sent a message of sympathy and condolence to the Indian prime minister.

And then, we have also offered to India that in case they have any credible evidence to prove the complicity of any individual or group based in Pakistan, they should share the information with us. We'll take necessary action.

KAGAN: India's senior cabinet minister, Arun Jaitley, appeared earlier on CNN with CNN's Wolf Blitzer. I want to listen in to what he has to say, and then continue our conversation. So let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARUN JAITLEY, INDIAN SENIOR CABINET MINISTER: The Pakistani government has to accept that all forms of cross-border terrorism must stop. All organizations which have been functioning from Pakistani soil and creating this kind of a situation in India must stop their activities. Action must be taken against them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: You know what he's saying here, Mr. Ambassador, he's basically saying, you can go and arrest some terrorists, but really what he's accusing Pakistan is of is basically letting the terrorists do the dirt work of Pakistan.

AHMAD: Well, this statement betrays extreme opportunism. India is only seeking to exploit the current international sentiment on terrorism to obfuscate the legitimacy of the freedom struggle that the Kashmiri people have been waging for the last 50 years.

KAGAN: So are you saying then that these people are freedom fighters and not terrorists?

AHMAD: Well, of course there is a difference between freedom fighters and terrorists. There is a difference between action against Taliban or al Qaeda and against the Kashmiri freedom fighters. And these are two different things.

KAGAN: So you are saying you don't see the people who maybe attacked the Indian Parliament or the people who are fighting in Kashmir, they are not -- they're freedom fighters and not terrorists, that's your position?

AHMAD: No, no. Those who attacked the Indian Parliament were terrorists, and we have ourselves described it as a reprehensible act of terrorism. What I was saying is that this issue, the current issue that we are facing is not all about some individuals or groups. It is an issue about a much more fundamental problem.

KAGAN: And that is what is to happen to Kashmir.

AHMAD: Yes. It is about Kashmir.

KAGAN: All right. But why this is of interest to the citizens of the world, to the people of the world, as you mentioned, both your country, Pakistan, and India have nuclear weapons. India has come out and said it has a no first strike policy. Your country has not. Why not?

AHMAD: Well, this no first use concept is a farce, which in effect India has also never believed, in because if it had believed in this concept, then it should have in the first instance accepted China's assurances of no first use, and in that case we will not have seen South Asia getting nuclearized. So, India itself places no credibility in no first use.

KAGAN: Let's worry about Pakistan's plate here, and that's the only country that you can really concern yourself with. As ambassador to the United Nations, sir, you're ambassador to the United Nations, you realize that this is a world concept. As a citizen of the world, does Pakistan not have a responsibility to sign up for a no first strike policy?

AHMAD: Well, as I said, nobody in the world before has placed any credibility in this concept, because it is a farce. The United States itself, NATO never accepted the former Soviet Union's offers of no first use, because whenever there is an imbalance in conventional forces, there's no question of accepting no first use concept. KAGAN: So Pakistan sticks by that. As a diplomat, tell me...

AHMAD: It is a deterrent for us, it is a credible minimum deterrent for us. We believe that nuclear weapons are not meant to be used. They only serve as a deterrent. That is our nuclear doctrine.

KAGAN: As a diplomat, sir, how can the United States help end this tension diplomatically?

AHMAD: Well, I think the United States has already engaged very constructively, and we believe the United States can further exert its pressure on India to dissuade it from embarking on any military adventure between two nuclear states.

KAGAN: Very good. Ambassador Shamshad Ahmad, Pakistani ambassador to the United Nations. Sir, thank you for joining us today, and I wish you a new year filled with peace, for both you and your Indian neighbors as well. Happy new year. Thank you very much.

AHMAD: Thank you. Happy new year to you.

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