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CNN Live Sunday

Interview With Mark Malloch-Brown

Aired January 27, 2002 - 18:07   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: As Afghanistan looks to the future and the reality of living in peace after decades of war, financial support for rebuilding the decimated nation is key, and the World Bank estimates that Afghanistan will need some $1.7 billion for reconstruction efforts, just in the first year and an estimated $10 billion over the next five years.

And at a donor's conference in Tokyo, the international community pledged more than $4.5 billion over a five-year period. For some insight now into what it will take rebuild Afghanistan and which countries have offered to help out, we're joined by Mark Malloch- Brown. He just has -- just has been confirmed as the next administrator of the United Nations Development Programme.

Thank you so much for being with us.

MARK MALLOCH-BROWN, U.N. DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME: Thank you.

CALLAWAY: What a task it will be to rebuild Afghanistan. A first step has to have already been taken with securing this $4.5 billion. Is this the first of many that we will have to see, many pledges by many nations to help rebuild this country?

MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, I think, actually, the $4.5 billion is a tremendous start. I really don't think there's ever been a case where we've been able, within a month of a new postwar government being formed, to assemble more than 60 minutes from governments around the world and secure this level of commitment. And some countries could only commit for the first year. The United States, for example, which generously gave just about $300 million is legally bound not to make multi-year commitments. It needs Congress to approve year by year. But Secretary Powell and Secretary O'Neill, who were both there, made it clear that they hoped that the U.S. will be able to continue at this level.

So we think we've got a tremendous momentum, plenty of resources in the pipeline, and full funding for the first year where we raised a little bit more than the $1.7 billion that UNDP and the World Bank had estimated was required. So in funding terms, I think the international community has really come through.

CALLAWAY: You know the U.S. has received some criticism for the amount that they pledged, but as you mentioned, that was just a one- year pledge. But on paper, it looks a little confusing when you see Iran allegedly giving more than the U.S., but then again, Iran was giving over a five-year period, right?

MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, that's right, but I quite like the friendly, I hope, competition, and that Iran's pledge was particularly surprising, $560 million for five years. And I think reflects the view of Iran and several other neighbors with a strong successful independent Afghanistan really is now in all of their interests.

Now, I know that's not a view shared by all, but the Iranian pledge, I felt, was one of the most significant breakthroughs of the conference.

CALLAWAY: And as you mentioned a surprise to many not only Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Japan. Were you amazed at just how many countries did commit to this?

MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, you know, I've been working very hard, since the end of the conflict, with U.S. and Japanese co-chairs of the conference to get as broad as participation as possible at it. So by the time the conference itself -- we weren't, but we did feel it indicated our decision to hold the conference very soon after the conflict ended, while it was -- it still is at high level of political support. We felt we had to strike while the arm was hardened before, frankly, political interests moved on to other parts of the world and other trouble spots.

CALLAWAY: Yes, political memories are rather short, aren't they?

MALLOCH-BROWN: Yes.

CALLAWAY: Well, what happens, let's say, five years down the road? Are we going see as much interest as we're seeing right now?

MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, I would hope not because that would be a measure of success if Afghanistan has assumed a certain stability. Its democratic institutions are functioning. There's a national government. The warlords are no longer running regions of the country.

It'll still though be a poor country because even with the most successful projection of what we could achieve in economic terms, this is a country with less than $200 per capital income. And so, even if we get say 10 percent pro for year, for now, for five years, it'll still be a very poor place with well under $300 of capital income. So you know, it's going to be a poor, underdeveloped country for a while, but hopefully a peaceful and stable one.

CALLAWAY: You know, we look at the numbers, the big numbers of the cost of rebuilding this country, but certainly security has to be a paramount concern, just to get that down to begin with. What about -- here we go, here are some numbers. This is the first year, $1.7 billion, over five years, $10 billion. I think we mentioned that earlier.

How costly are some of these programs going to be? Security alone has to be -- we have to train the troops there, not only to build schools for the children in Afghanistan. For those of us not schooled in rebuilding a country, it's hard to imagine all that it will take.

MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, that's right, but -- and you're right to put your finger on security because every Afghan from Mr. Karzai to men and women on street corners tell you that security is their number one concern. There hasn't been a national peace force in more than 20 years. About a quarter of the country will be returning from either internal exile or from being abroad as refugees and you know, they are going to want to know that the security is in their community.

There's a huge number of land mines. Seven hundred and fifty square kilometers of the country are mined. So all these are interrelated security problems have to be tackled up front and building a police force isn't so much expensive as requires a real commitment of trainers and the building up of a kind of culture of respect for law and order and human rights, which takes changes in people's minds. It's, in many ways, much more complex than the more financially expensive bricks and mortar reconstruction of a country. But it's absolutely vital. I mean it's indispensable. You can't start rebuilding roads and infrastructure until you've solved the security problem.

The other rite of clarity is to fund the government itself. We've met -- UNDP has met the first month's payroll with the help of a lot of generous donor countries. And we have to go on doing that until the country and the government has a revenue base of its own because it's not plausible to believe it can collect taxes in these early months.

After that, as you mentioned also, schools, the school year starts in March...

CALLAWAY: And Mark, I don't want to...

MALLOCH-BROWN: Go ahead.

CALLAWAY: ... interrupt you. I hate to interrupt you. That's so rude to interrupt you, but you mentioned the schools and quickly, we've run out of time here, but will private donations play any part in missions like rebuilding the schools there?

MALLOCH-BROWN: Absolutely, UNICEF plans to get 1.5 million children in school by March. It will do it with the support of a lot of nongovernmental organizations, many of whom have been providing schooling, particularly for girls during these years of the war. So there'll be plenty of NGOs in which Americans can access through the Web or through their local community who will be supporting schooling in Afghanistan, which I know is an issue many people care about.

CALLAWAY: Well, sir -- Mark Malloch-Brown, good luck to you and thank you very much for being with us.

MALLOCH-BROWN: Thank you.

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