Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Sunday

Interview With Robert Gordon, Nada Stotland

Aired February 17, 2002 - 17:22   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The Yates case has drawn attention to postpartum depression, often casually referred to as "the baby blues." Let's bring in attorney and psychologist Robert Gordon and psychiatrist Nada Stotland to help us understand the cause and possible effects of this disorder.

Thanks very much to both of you for joining us. This is going to be a very tough case, particularly the fact that it has gotten so much pre-trial publicity, and many people remember hearing details about how Andrea Yates admitted to police when they came to the home that I have done something terrible, my five children are now dead and at my hands.

Mr. Gordon, let's begin with you. How in the world will the defense go about trying to convince jurors that it was postpartum depression or psychosis?

ROBERT GORDON, ATTORNEY: The defense, Fredricka, is going to do their very best to establish that she fits the diagnostic criteria for postpartum depression with a psychosis. And in that regard, they are going to use it as an explaining but also an excusing condition. And the fact that they will use it as an excusing condition, that goes to the essence of what the prosecution will deny.

WHITFIELD: Well, Ms. Stotland, how do you do that, when the prosecutors will say that she knew the difference between right and wrong. And if you are psychotic, then you are least likely to know the difference between right and wrong, because of the fact that she admitted that she hurt and killed her children?

DR. NADA STOTLAND, PSYCHIATRIST: I am a psychiatrist. We don't analyze or diagnose people we have not seen. But let's talk in the general terms. It's hard to understand how someone can be psychotic, out of touch with reality, and yet do anything. If you are totally out of touch with reality, why don't you just wander around, OK?

But being psychotic means you have delusions, bizarre ideas, or you hear or see things that other people don't hear or see. They are very real to you. You can act on the basis of those hallucinations, and still part of you can know -- or when you feel a little better or after something happens, you can realize that you have done something terrible.

WHITFIELD: So it sounds like you might be understanding why the defense is taking this approach, because they will say -- and they apparently will be bringing family members who'll say, in fact, she was delusional, she has a pretty tattered history of having some mental problems, medications that didn't work, doctors that did not properly diagnose her and treat her.

GORDON: The failure, Fredricka, of psychology and psychiatry in this regard is not so much in the explanation and description of the symptomatology or whether it has to do with hormones or psychosocial behavior. Rather, the real failure is whether or not this would keep her from facing the consequences of her behavior.

And people, of course, want to believe that anyone who would destroy their charge is, of course, crazy or psychotic or mentally ill. Yet still, I believe they will reason backward to find her sane, or at least not sufficiently disabled that she could not appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct.

WHITFIELD: So Mr. Gordon, how much of a difference might it make that of the jurors seated, of the eight women and four men, apparently there are several of those jurors seated that have degrees in psychology, or have at least visited with psychologists. Wouldn't they have a tainted view in going into this trial?

GORDON: Not tainted, but I think Dr. Stotland might agree that they would have a resonance for psychological and psychiatric explanation. Still in all, there comes a time where we have to face the consequences of our behavior, and it's there where the characterological or sociopathic aspect will become prominent in their minds.

So I think they will reason backward and find her sane, not because they don't want to believe that she is crazy to have done what she did, but rather because they don't want to help her obfuscate the responsibility for what she's done.

WHITFIELD: Ms. Stotland, do you agree with that or disagree?

STOTLAND: Nobody wants to excuse people who do terrible things. And we don't understand, and sometimes people do things just because they are bad. But sometimes people do things because they are psychotic. We don't like the idea of people getting away with things. A lot of people feel, oh, every criminal who does something awful claims they were crazy, they get off, they walk, they are walking among us all today.

In fact, way less than 1 percent of people who are accused of crimes claim that they were crazy. Of those, very few get found crazy by a jury, and those who do spend more time in institutions than they would quite often if they had gone to prison.

WHITFIELD: So Ms. Stotland, how much of this trial has to focus on the history of Andrea Yates, her relationship with her husband, with her children, and less of the act itself?

STOTLAND: Well, when we make a diagnosis of somebody, their history is very, very important. Postpartum depression and psychosis is a real disease, and it tends to come back after subsequent pregnancies.

WHITFIELD: Because, Mr. Gordon, the prosecution and the defense are both going to apparently play it up pretty high that the defense point of view is that Andrea Yates didn't have a supportive relationship from her husband, and that there were all of these red flags raised that she was having a difficult time even after her first child was born, that apparently she was having visions of killing the child. And the prosecution will say, well, you know, we're not going to try and play the role of empathy here. This was cold-blooded murder.

GORDON: I think what will happen is that some of the extenuating circumstances of the psychosis that the doctor referred to was also some of the enabling that the husband or the blown diagnosis of the psychiatrist may become more relevant when the death penalty issue is pronounced in the jurors' minds, but I think it will be less relevant to the issue of responsibility and wrongfulness.

Because actually, the death penalty says more about us and who we are as people and about our own character and values than it does about Andrea Yates.

STOTLAND: You know...

WHITFIELD: OK, go ahead and make it quick.

STOTLAND: Sure. Postpartum depression and psychosis can happen to people who are in very good circumstances, just out of the blue like any disease, but it can also be brought on by adverse circumstances. That can be a precipitant.

WHITFIELD: Well, we'll all be watching and learning an awful lot about this case as it ensues. Opening statements begin tomorrow in Houston involving the Yates case.

And thanks very much, Dr. Nada Stotland, for joining us, as well as Mr. Robert Gordon. Thanks very much.

And a footnote now: During Andrea Yates' time in jail, she apparently had visited a Web site featuring pictures of her five children. Her husband, Rusty, created the site, YatesKids.org, to honor the memory of the children, Noah, Paul, John, Luke and Mary. On the first page, Russell Yates writes he hopes the Web site will be a place that anyone can go to, visit the children. The site also contains a link to contribute to Andrea Yates' defense fund.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com