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CNN Live Sunday

Interviews With Hisham Melhem, Janine Zacharia

Aired April 14, 2002 - 15:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's bring in two journalists right now back in Washington, D.C., who know the situation and know this crisis all too well. Time to talk more about Colin Powell's mission with Hisham Melhem from "As-Safir", the newspaper out of Beirut and Janine Zacharia, from "The Jerusalem Post". Good afternoon to both of you back in Washington.

JANINE ZACHARIA, JERUSALEM POST: Thanks, Bill.

HEMMER: To Hisham Melhem, first of all, I think essentially you guys know about as much as happening in these meetings as we do. Are you able to gauge whether or not there has been any progress at this point?

HISHAM MELHEM, AS-SAFIR NEWSPAPER: Well I think if Secretary Powell doesn't get -- doesn't deliver a quick Israel withdrawal within the next few days, then his mission will collapse because Chairman Arafat will have neither the ability nor the incentive to deliver on what is expected of him. It is -- it strikes many Arabs and people in world as very strange that the secretary of state keep hammering on the Palestinian leader, on the Palestinian leadership while not speaking forceful to the Israelis to deliver on President Bush's supposedly clear message more than 11 days ago that Israel should withdraw forthward, and in accordance also with the United Nations resolution, Security Council resolution.

He has to deliver on that issue first, then they have to deliver on the urgent humanitarian needs of Palestinians giving the amount of destruction physical that the Israelis visited on the Palestinian cities in towns and then beyond that ...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: It appears that there might be something in the works. It appears that there is something in the works in terms of Palestinian aid, and we've talked about that for a couple of days here. But back to your point originally, the U.S. has pressured Israel. They've done it very publicly, even before Secretary Powell left Washington. I guess my question more directly to you is if Secretary Powell cannot get a timetable, does that suggest, then the suicide bombers come back to Israel?

MELHEM: I can almost predict it, Bill, and that's the sad reality here. I mean people keep forgetting the context of this, which is you know, an ongoing dehumanizing occupation. Arafat does not have the ability or even if he has the inclination to rein in these groups he won't have the tools, the structures -- I mean, Ariel Sharon keeps talking about destroying the infrastructure of terror.

This is an awful phrase that he used in 1982 when he reduced Beirut into rubble and now he's not destroying the infrastructure of terror, he's destroying the physical infrastructure that the Palestinians built with their blood and sweat and tears over the years. Now you know, he laid rest to large parts of the wasteland. He wanted to vanquish the Palestinians. He creates desolation and then he calls it peace, and unless the United States stops this onslaught quickly, its reputation as a mediator or as an impartial mediator will be tarnished forever.

HEMMER: I want to go to Janine Zacharia quickly now. Your thoughts, first of all, on whether or not you've able to gauge, whether or not there's any progress, any level of success right now for Secretary Powell.

ZACHARIA: No, I don't think there's been any progress, unless you cite Yasser Arafat's condemnation of the -- of the suicide bombing in Jerusalem yesterday. But the question is when only a few days earlier, when he was talking -- calling for thousands of more martyrs to march on Jerusalem what that language is worth, in particular -- and also whether Prime Minister Sharon will take it seriously. I think one of the problems with Secretary Powell's mission was that it was announced in response to European and Arab pressure to get an envoy, a high-level envoy like Powell over there and then they tried to flush out the details of what he would do.

Besides, the U.S. aid that Michael Holmes mentioned, I'm not sure that he had any really new fresh ideas here. And one last thing, in terms of U.S. leverage, we see it as being quite minimal right now because of the fact that the Israelis have continued with the offensive despite U.S. calls to pull back and also that we have not seen any fresh commitments from Yasser Arafat. Until we see Yasser Arafat putting conditions on the secretary of state, so no I don't see that as progress.

HEMMER: Janine, I want to get to the leadership question to both of you in a moment here, because frankly in this region a lot of people question the commitment on both sides. But I want to know if the Israelis truly want Secretary Powell to succeed here, why not, then, continue more withdrawals throughout the region?

ZACHARIA: I think that what's important to remember is why the Israelis went in. They went in because initially of the suicide bombing that took place in Netanya on Passover and the five subsequent suicide bombings after that. That reached a certain point in Israelis minds that we can't take any more of this. And they went in to try and what, as Hisham pointed out, to rid the West Bank of the infrastructure of terrorism. Now we -- this is a process of ...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Yes, you know I understand all of that, but my question is ...

ZACHARIA: Yes.

HEMMER: ... whether -- I understand all that. My question was why not give Secretary Powell something at this point in order to help ensure that this mission does succeed?

ZACHARIA: Look, Bill, there are some people -- some Israeli officials I have talked to who have said, in fact, yes that Sharon might expedite even further the withdrawal in order to in a cynical way, then allow the suicide bombers to come back, and then that would give him justification to expel Yasser Arafat. There's all kinds of thoughts on what's going on, but right now I think the Army, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Israeli defense force is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a huge amount of pressure on the government to continue with the offensive, at least until they've achieved whatever objective they set out to do.

HEMMER: Hisham Melhem, do you believe like so many have said in this region, that this is the last chance for Yasser Arafat?

MELHEM: I think the American administration is dealing with Yasser Arafat as if this is his last chance, and that's why they keep pointing out the greater role that they would anticipate from the Arab side, and that's why they keep talking about other Palestinian leaders besides Yasser Arafat. This -- look, you are not -- whether you like Arafat or not, that's not the issue. Personalizing the conflict here as a conflict between Arafat and Sharon doesn't serve any purpose. Criticizing Arafat doesn't serve any purpose.

I have my own long list of grievances and criticism of Yasser Arafat. Do the Palestinians deserve a better leadership -- definitely. But there's also (UNINTELLIGIBLE) leadership on the Israeli side. The issue is you deal with what you've got, and you've got Arafat now. The problem here Arafat represents a legitimate moral political issue, cause, and not withstanding the mistakes that he committed, not withstanding his limitations, his maddening leadership style.

The Palestinian cause is a just cause. It's a moral cause, and I think you cannot ignore the context that you're dealing with here, which is one of occupation. So reducing this issue to a conflict between Sharon and Arafat, in fact Arafat wanted to deal with Sharon. In fact, Arafat wanted to shake hands with Sharon.

In fact, it was Sharon who says he expresses his sorrow because he didn't kill Arafat in 1982 in Lebanon, and to go back to Secretary Powell's mission will, I think it is in the interest of the Palestinians to -- so that Secretary Powell succeeds because they want to stop the Israeli onslaught. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I mean there is no semblance or equilibrium of -- between Israelis and the Palestinians. But I can tell you ...

HEMMER: All right.

MELHEM: ... that ...

(CROSSTALK)

MELHEM: ... General Sharon doesn't want ...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: I'm running out of time here.

MELHEM: OK.

HEMMER: Finish your thought and then Janine, here's what I want -- Janine Zacharia, you get the final word here. We are talking about leadership on the Palestinian side. Hang on one second, Hisham ...

(CROSSTALK)

MELHEM: OK.

HEMMER: ... I want to know from you right now, is Ariel Sharon leading Israel into a trap that they will regret at some point down the road?

ZACHARIA: It's not clear to anybody right now in Israel exactly what Ariel Sharon's end game is. If he's got one, at the very -- you know that's going to put an end to the suicide bombings. But right now the Israelis are fully supportive of the mission because of the amount of terror attacks that they have suffered. One quick thing about Yasser Arafat and whether this is his last chance.

HEMMER: And make it quick.

ZACHARIA: Colin Powell -- he seemed to suggest it was going to be, but now that he's meeting with him, I'd say it's probably not.

HEMMER: All right, Janine Zacharia, Hisham Melhem. Thanks for both of your thoughts back in Washington, D.C. Thanks for coming on with us here.

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