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CNN Live Sunday

Interviews With Ariel Cohen, James Zogby

Aired April 15, 2002 - 16:11   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: We want to go to Washington right now and bring in two guests with very different attitudes, nonetheless though; we're going to take a different stab at this segment. After a few questions, we're going to get to a few e-mails from our viewers that we solicited just about an hour ago.

James Zogby is with us in Washington, the president of the American Arab Institute and Ariel Cohen from the Heritage Foundation. Good evening to both of you back in Washington. I guess Mr. Cohen first to you, the talk about this international conference. If the Palestinians put no one else forward as their leader, Yasser Arafat, is it likely to happen in any case at any point?

ARIEL COHEN, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Whether it happens or not, if Yasser Arafat leads the Palestinian delegation is going to be aimed against American interests. Yasser Arafat today is a subcontractor for terror for Iran, Iraq, for Saddam Hussein, for the Ayatollah's and for Hezbollah. He is allowing his enabler. He is signing the checks for people to walk with suicide, homicide bomb, belts and blow up Israeli men, women and children, blow them up in the markets, blow them up in cafes, movie theaters and streets.

HEMMER: If that's the case then do you think Yasser Arafat, if indeed that's your opinion, do you think he'll ever change his stance, which, at some point, would able to bridge the connection between these two sides?

COHEN: No. I think Yasser Arafat, by walking away from the most generous peace offer, which Prime Minister Barak of Israel made in Camp David too and 2000, bankrupt his people, bankrupt his own policy and bankrupt himself as a leader of the Palestinian people. Yasser Arafat is the chief terrorist, terrorist in chief today in the Middle East and he is not a partner for peace. He is only an enabler and conductor of terrors of war.

HEMMER: All right James Zogby, I want to get your response before we go to these e-mails right now. First on this international conference, again, it's early and it's been floated about, as Andrea Koppel talked about. Do you have any optimism for something like that happening and if so, is that the best chance of success for Colin Powell in this current mission?

JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Well, an international conference I think has long been advocated, actually since the stalemate that came before Camp David. All of the outstanding issues that were trying to be addressed at Camp David, whether they were refugees or Jerusalem or final borders, et cetera, were actually international questions. Arafat had to go back and talk to people in the Arab world about Jerusalem, about refugees, et cetera. So the fact is that, yes, an international conference that puts all of the parties together is critical I think at this point and we ought to be looking at a comprehensive solution. The Saudi plan provides ...

HEMMER: Do you think it's likely -- do you think it will come off?

ZOGBY: Well the question is, is Israel going to sit down with their enemy and that is Yasser Arafat. They don't like him. But you know what? Big deal because Arabs really don't like Ariel Sharon and while my colleague here wants to call Arafat every name in the book, try to fit the word terrorist in as many times in one sentence as possible, that's not getting us anywhere. It's neither edifying or is it helpful. The simple fact is, is that there were war crimes committed in last couple of weeks but you know what. Palestinians are going to have to sit down with the guy who committed the war crimes.

HEMMER: What war crimes? War crimes where?

ZOGBY: Well, listen. It is very clear, Bill, that the shooting at journalists and keeping them out of places where they were trying to do their job, they're civilians and they ought to have been protected. The treatment of people in Jenin, in Nablus, the looting of banks, which your own channel has been carrying the stories of and of grocery stores, et cetera by an occupying army. The fact is that massacres that appears have been created but we don't know because, in fact, international medical agencies haven't been allowed in and the rumors of mass burials again that can't be verified and the fact that ambulances have not been able to ...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Gentlemen, we have to bring (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

I couldn't figure out what was going on here. Listen. Listen. I want to go to these e-mails. And we've talked about these allegations back and forth and frankly, journalists have been trying to get in, international relief agencies have been trying to get in. There are conflicting reports throughout the entire area but for the sake of our viewers, I want to take just a step back from this and go to some e-mails now that we've solicited. First one up now, to Mr. Cohen, maybe you can take this one first. Why not make Jerusalem an international city secured by international forces and open to all? How much has that been considered between the two sides?

COHEN: Well it was considered and Israel made the most generous offer to Arafat by allowing for a Palestinian capital basically being created in part of Jerusalem and Yasser Arafat did not answer, just walked away from the most generous offer. But back to the war crime issue, these are innuendoes. This is a Palestinian propaganda machine that is creating something out of a very difficult warfare that the Israeli's conducted without bringing the Air Force, without bringing the artillery, sparing the civilians in Jenin and Nablus.

ZOGBY: Shame you on, Ariel.

COHEN: Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm not calling you names yet. So the Israeli's could have destroyed the city that they asked the civilians to walk away, stop the fire and please, please just evacuate the city and the Palestinians ...

ZOGBY: Let's get on -- let's get on with the e-mails, Bill.

COHEN: ... and Palestinians used their civilian population as a human shields and you know that, James.

ZOGBY: It's a disgrace.

HEMMER: Number two -- number two, is it time for someone else to step in as a mediator, perhaps the Europeans? I think from an Israeli perspective, Mr. Zogby, that would not fly at this point. What do you think? Is the U.S. still the only game in town that can broker any sort of cease-fire between these two sides?

ZOGBY: The Israelis have not been willing to let the Europeans in actually ever since this conflict began. They've wanted it to be America and frankly, I think that America can play a very important role, if we can shed ourselves of some of the problems of domestic politics and function in a way to protect our interests, a way to protect our allies in the broader region. There is no one more competent, no one more respected than the guy who is doing the job there right now.

Colin Powell, I think, is an extraordinarily capable individual. Will he have the mandate to do the job? That is the question I think the people are asking one and two. Can he be given the time to do it? I think that America can do the job but we have to recognize that at the end of the day this is not just about Israelis and not just about Palestinians but it's about American leadership and our ability to protect our interests and our allies in the broader region.

COHEN: I agree, I agree.

HEMMER: OK. Listen. OK, Mr. Cohen -- OK, well we agree on that one. That's a good start here. Back on the e-mails now. Is there any possibility Secretary Powell could be taken to Jenin to see for himself what happened there, that comes by way of Nevada and Lois Summer (ph)? Mr. Cohen, I am assuming here that based on your previous response that you would welcome such a visit?

COHEN: Yeah, absolutely. And I also want to say that both the United States, the British and (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the Russians and others manage media access to areas of intense warfare. The Palestinians mine the area and put booby traps on corpses and this is one of the reasons why Israel is very humanely and in a very rational way, are limiting the access of journalists, but, you know, if Mr. Powell wants to go to Jenin, I'm sure the Israelis will be more than welcome.

HEMMER: Mr. Zogby, that would pretty much settle the argument, don't you think, if you're able to inspect it on the ground?

ZOGBY: Well Palestinians have been calling for an independent commission to go in. Secretary Powell could function in that capacity. We've heard from aide workers already about some of the really difficult circumstances that they found, not only in Jenin but in Nablus and other places in the territories.

Look, horrible things have happen and happened under the cloud of secrecy and we don't know all of them but the anecdotal stories that have been reported in the Washington Post by I think some very courageous journalists writing for the Post have been rather horrifying. And I think that it's kind of unfair.

Look, what's happened in Israel is terrible. We've seen the pictures, not only of the dead and the wounded but we've seen the frightened women. We've seen the traumatized men and we've seen the pictures over and over again, but we've seen no pictures of Palestinians suffering and, therefore, the visual impression is create that only one side suffers.

To really be fair and honest here, we have to be in the position of knowing that both sides suffer and both sides are equal in their suffering and in their humanity to each other. Secretary Powell's mission is a mission to say we have to bring warring parties together. No name-calling. No taking sides but bring warring parties together so we can have peace because America needs it as much as the region needs. I want Palestinians to have security and Israelis to have security.

HEMMER: One more e-mail here. One more e-mail here and then we've got to wrap this up. It appears now that Mr. Sharon's strategy -- this out of New Brunswick, Canada. It appears now that Mr. Sharon's strategy for stopping terrorism is not working. What now is the question? Mr. Cohen, do you agree with that, four (ph) days now, two suicide bombings ...

COHEN: No, not at all.

HEMMER: ... hitting the absolute heart of Jerusalem late on Friday afternoon?

COHEN: Yes. Not at all. What is happening is that the Israelis are sparing the Palestinians civilian population by endangering their own soldiers. Reservists who have families get killed, overtime, going house to house and finding labs that produce explosives for suicide bombers. They find factories with illegal weapons that are not allowed for Palestinian authority. To -- the Palestinian authority was not allowed to exist, to bring in under the Oslo accord that Yasser Arafat found. They find documentation that connects Yasser Arafat to stop ...

HEMMER: Got it. Got it.

COHEN: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to terrorism.

ZOGBY: Can I come in, Bill, just for a second? HEMMER: Listen, I'm out of time. James Zogby, you have about 20 seconds.

ZOGBY: OK. Listen. If you read the Israeli press, you will find a very lively debate about the fact that it didn't work. They tried F-16s. They tried helicopter gunships. Two hundred missiles fired on Jenin refugee camp. More suffering. More trauma. More fear will only create more terror.

COHEN: So when are we going to have a cease-fire ...

ZOGBY: Ariel, I can't -- listen, we've heard you speak and I wasn't really impressed. I think that the issue here is how do we end the hopelessness of Palestinians ...

COHEN: By bringing them to terror.

ZOGBY: ... and that's going to be peace. That's going to be peace.

HEMMER: Gentlemen ...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Gentlemen, we got to run.

ZOGBY: Thanks, Bill.

HEMMER: I let the leash pretty loose that time. Next time, it won't be that way.

ZOGBY: Thanks.

HEMMER: But in the interest of a spirited conversation, I appreciate James Zogby, Ariel Cohen back there in live in Washington. Thank you, gentlemen. More e-mails later in the evening here on the CNN.

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