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CNN Live Sunday

Interview With David Makovsky, Phyllis Bennis

Aired April 21, 2002 - 17:14   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now to discuss the Middle East development further: David Makovsky is a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and Phyllis Bennis is a fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Phyllis, I want to begin with you. Israel says that it remains at a standstill. It is going to maintain its military stronghold right outside the compound, until they get Yasser Arafat's cooperation to hand over five suspects in the killing of Israel's tourism minister. Do you see this pressure as working?

PHYLLIS BENNIS, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: Well, the problem has been that there has been no U.S. pressure to end this standoff. The Israeli occupation is continuing, as they have said it's going to, and the U.S. have said that seems to be fine.

The five prisoners that are in within the compound were in the Palestinian jail inside the compound. That jail was destroyed by Israeli bombing. It was after that that those prisoners were moved into the officiary where Arafat is now.

They were originally moved to the Ramallah jail by U.S. officials in a consulate car from when they were originally arrested in Nablus. The agreement between Israel and Palestine is that both sides can keep and put on trial suspects, and that they will not be extradited as long as they are being kept in prison. They were being kept in prison until the Israelis destroyed the jail.

This is a nonsensical approach, and the U.S., unfortunately, has endorsed it and given Sharon a green light to maintain the siege and maintain the horror show that we're now seeing in Jenin and Nablus and elsewhere in the West Bank.

WHITFIELD: And why do you believe the U.S. is giving the green light on that, given that there was already a preexisting agreement between Israel and Palestine?

BENNIS: I think the U.S. has made clear, the Bush administration has made very clear that it has no intentions of pushing the Israelis through actions. It was prepared at one moment to talk the talk of urging a withdrawal, but made no effort to change the ongoing policy on the ground, which means the $3 billion to $4 billion a year in military and economic aid, and the veto, the constant threat of a veto at the United Nations to protect the Israeli occupation from international criticism.

The changes that have gone on in that have been so small as to be almost non-existent. They are willing to talk, but they're not willing to walk the walk of changing the policy to make clear to Israel that its violations of human rights, its violations of international law and its specific violations of U.N. resolutions is unacceptable. And until the U.S. says that, they won't do it.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, thanks, Phyllis. David, let me get you in here. At least one member of the Bush administration, Secretary Powell, says that he is urging Israel to kind of relax the pressure outside the compound, because in his view Arafat is powerless to do anything as long as there is this kind of pressure outside the compound. Do you agree with that?

DAVID MAKOVSKY, WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: Well, we also heard from Secretary Powell that he said that Prime Minister Sharon has met the timeline that he has asked and has pulled out of all the cities.

We have two political-like situations, one with the Arafat compound, and one in Bethlehem, but the military incursion have ended. And we should remember -- remind our viewers that the reason why there were these incursions was you had daily suicide bombs in Israel, and that's why. If there were no bombs, there would be no incursions, and the same is true for the future.

I think with the five suspects of the Tourism Minister Zevi (ph) case, it took many months of pressure and so many different directions to get them to arrests, and the lack of trust on this case is due to the fact that the current intifada began when Arafat just opened the jails and all the Palestinian -- almost virtually all of them -- were allowed to leave, major terrorists.

So there is very little faith, and that's why this issue of extradition has suddenly come to the fore. If there was faith in the broader principal, I don't think we'd be where we are today.

WHITFIELD: OK. Quickly, in five seconds or less, yes or no question, to you, David. Do you think it would be useful for Powell to return to the Middle East region?

MAKOVSKY: I think at an appropriate time I think he's got the right idea, and I think yes.

WHITFIELD: OK. Phyllis?

BENNIS: I think that there's always a reason to talk. The problem is not Powell or another messenger, the problem is what's the message he brings. If the message is end the occupation, yes, there is a reason to go.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks very much. Phyllis Bennis of the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, and David Makovsky, also a fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Thank you very much for joining us this evening. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com