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CNN Live Sunday
Interview With Madelyne Gorman Toogood
Aired September 22, 2002 - 18:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The woman seen in a surveillance video that shocked the nation said -- yes -- she struck her child but she didn't injure the girl. And the mother says she is not a monster.
CNN's national correspondent Gary Tuchman is in South Bend with an exclusive first one-on-one interview with Madelyne Toogood.
Hi there, Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, there, Fredricka. The whole nation has seen the video. The whole world has seen this video. And now the woman in the video who was striking her child for a period of about 30 seconds on September 13 is with us right now.
This is Madelyne Toogood -- a 25-year-old woman -- turning 26 in a couple of weeks. And sitting to her right, Rocket Rosen, her Houston-based attorney.
Thank you ...
ROCKET ROSEN, ATTORNEY: Good afternoon.
TUCHMAN: Thank you both of you for joining us. We appreciate it.
Madelyne, the first question I want to ask you is when did you first see this video? Where were you? And how did it come about that you saw it?
MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, MOTHER: Somebody told my sister that it was going to be on CNN and I never seen it until a couple -- probably the next day when -- after it first started.
TUCHMAN: How did you feel when you saw this video and saw that it was you striking your child?
TOOGOOD: I knew I was wrong when I did it. I apologized. But I didn't know how bad -- I had no idea how ...
TUCHMAN: How did you know how bad it was? When you looked at it did you remember doing what you did?
TOOGOOD: No. I don't -- no -- I remember -- I remember pulling her hair and I know I slapped her but -- no -- I didn't know I -- no -- I didn't know -- no -- I don't remember it was that bad.
TUCHMAN: When we talk about how bad it was, what did you do? And you have been both very candid about this. What did you do to your daughter? We see that you're throwing your fists and we see that you're pulling hair. What was going on?
TOOGOOD: Can I answer all of that? I pulled her hair and I didn't throw a fist at her -- I slapped her with an open hand. And held my -- like that -- like think -- but the last of it wasn't -- I was like that -- was shaking her by the head -- the hair.
TUCHMAN: Why were you doing this?
TOOGOOD: There was no excuse. There would be no excuse in the world why I did it.
TUCHMAN: But you were at a Kohl's Department Store not far from here. What happened in that store that led you to be so angry?
TOOGOOD: I was nervous in the store. Martha was underneath things but I -- Martha is Martha and she's four years old and there's nothing she did that she hasn't did a million times. And I've never lashed out like that. So there was -- I can't make any excuses.
There was nothing that would provoke me to do something like that. It was just -- I don't know -- I don't know why I did it. I -- there would be no reason to explain why I did it because is no explanation for it.
TUCHMAN: Were you hit as a child?
TOOGOOD: No, I was never -- I was probably very repulsive as a child. I was never hit.
TUCHMAN: Have you hit your children before?
TOOGOOD: I've spanked them before. No -- I've never battered them before or abused them before.
TUCHMAN: You call it battering and abusing yourself.
TOOGOOD: It looks like it -- yeah.
TUCHMAN: But the fact that you're saying that -- this is the first time you've battered or abused a child and it was caught on video tape.
Do you consider yourself unlucky that you were caught?
TOOGOOD: Of course, I do. It's not that -- if there's 500 spots, that was the only spot in the whole thing. But maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Maybe -- it's ruined my life. Maybe it will save some other child, some other mothers from doing it to theirs.
It's -- I'm -- I can't walk outside. I'm a monster to everybody. And so hopefully somebody will be educated enough to know don't raise your hand to your child. Don't do it -- it's not worth it.
TUCHMAN: Rocket Rosen -- the candor we're hearing from your client and from yourself are very unusual. How come you're willing to speak so much about this? You're letting her speak so much. You basically admit -- she's basically admitting she's guilty of this crime.
ROSEN: Madelyne is an unusual girl and I guess I'm an unusual lawyer. It's the old cliche -- truth is the best -- I can't think of the cliche. Truth is your best way to go -- it's straightforward, it's honorable and it's believable.
And I told her from the day that I met her, "Come forward, turn yourself in like a lady, be genuine, be up front and honest because I believe your family, the American public, your friends have to know the truth."
And she's been up front and honest and I'm proud of her.
TUCHMAN: And you raise an interesting point -- come forward. But for eight days you didn't come forward. And where were you after this happened? Why didn't you ...
TOOGOOD: Well, I wasn't issued a warrant until Friday. I knew they were looking for me. But when I knew they had issued a warrant I came back.
TUCHMAN: Where did you go?
TOOGOOD: I flew to Maryland and I -- from Maryland I flew with my three children. From Maryland I went to a trauma doctor with my daughter when I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hit that I wanted an honest opinion.
TUCHMAN: A trauma doctor where?
TOOGOOD: In Baytown, New Jersey.
TUCHMAN: I think you were saying Bay Head, New Jersey.
TOOGOOD: Bay Head, New Jersey.
TUCHMAN: On the Jersey shore?
TOOGOOD: Yeah -- on the Jersey shore.
TUCHMAN: So you went to a doctor because you had seen the video and heard all of the coverage and were concerned?
TOOGOOD: And they were saying that she was -- they were saying she was abused and they were saying that she was battered. And there was not a mark on my child and there never was. There never was nothing on her.
TUCHMAN: You were hitting -- you seemed to be hitting her pretty hard. Did she have marks initially honestly?
TOOGOOD: Never. My child never had nothing on her -- never -- never.
She was only -- still -- her hair was pulled. The only place she was hit was her bottom and her -- in the middle of her back.
TUCHMAN: Are you embarrassed and ashamed?
TOOGOOD: Of course I am. I'm mortified. I'm mortified. I'm mortified what I did to my family, what I did to my husband, what I did to my -- I'm mortified.
TUCHMAN: And in the meantime the state has taken Martha away from you for the time being -- not only away from you but away from anyone in your family. She's living with a foster family right now.
How do you feel about that decision?
TOOGOOD: I don't think -- I think they should have gave her to somebody in my family. I don't think -- I think if it was anybody else's child they would have gave her to a member of their family.
TUCHMAN: Now you were alluding to the fact that you are an Irish Traveler.
TOOGOOD: No -- I'm alluding to the fact ...
TUCHMAN: Can you explain, first of all -- what is an Irish Traveler? This is an important point to tell our viewers.
TOOGOOD: I said before it's hard to explain -- it's hard to explain what you are. To me an Irish Traveler is me to me but that's just a small part of me.
TUCHMAN: Well, one of the things -- one thing we should tell our viewers is authorities were saying initially you were a transient ...
TOOGOOD: Yes.
TUCHMAN: ... and a nomad. And now we're being a little more specific. An Irish Traveler -- you are a member of about 200 to 300 people who travel around the country looking for different types of work, right?
TOOGOOD: Were are -- no -- they have -- they all -- they don't look for types of work. They all do the -- that's what -- my husband does paving work. That's what he does.
TUCHMAN: Paving -- OK.
TOOGOOD: He ...
TUCHMAN: But getting different jobs in different places?
TOOGOOD: Right. He owns his equipment. He is licensed in this state. He's Better Business Bureau. He does all of that.
TUCHMAN: But you were saying, though, that there is prejudice against ...
TOOGOOD: Yeah.
TUCHMAN: ... people like yourselves.
TOOGOOD: It's like -- it's like somebody -- like a bum sitting in front of a nice store. "We need you to move down. We don't want you here. Move"
TUCHMAN: So are you saying that's why you were nervous in the Kohl's Department Store?
TOOGOOD: That's why I was -- yeah -- that's why I was nervous there. But more -- that's why I was nervous to stay and let them look at her. I thought they were going to take her. They were going to say, "You have no permanent address. You ..."
That's why I thought they were going to take her.
TUCHMAN: You were nervous in the store because you are an Irish Traveler and you think they were looking at you funny? Is that what you are saying?
TOOGOOD: Yes.
TUCHMAN: Not that anything went wrong in the store? Not that you took anything or ...
TOOGOOD: No -- I never took nothing. I come in with a bag and I double-knotted before I went in. As soon as I walked through the door I double-knotted that bag twice.
TUCHMAN: But you think the camera outside was following you?
TOOGOOD: No -- I think the lady.
TUCHMAN: Why was the camera following you do you think?
TOOGOOD: Because -- I -- because they opened my bag in the middle of the store. I have in my shopping cart with my little girl. And somebody come over and opened up my bag -- unknotted it and opened it and looked through it. And I come over and said, "That's mine. What are you doing?"
And, "We're an attendant so we were -- we were just seeing what it was."
TUCHMAN: So they were suspicious of you?
TOOGOOD: My purse was in it. Yeah -- it wasn't unattended. It would be like a shopping cart -- a lady with a shopping cart that left -- yeah.
TUCHMAN: I was talking to you earlier in the state of Texas six months ago. You were arrested and charged with shoplifting in another Kohl's Department Store. TOOGOOD: Yeah -- ironic.
TUCHMAN: What was that all about?
TOOGOOD: Just ironic.
TUCHMAN: You've got to stay away from the Kohl's, right?
TOOGOOD: Yeah -- just ironic.
TUCHMAN: The fact is, Madelyne, that millions of people saw this video and they were just appalled at what they saw.
TOOGOOD: They should have been.
TUCHMAN: It was scary. It was violent.
TOOGOOD: It was.
TUCHMAN: And what do you say to all of the people who saw that and just feel this feeling towards you they can't express?
TOOGOOD: Well, it was 35 minutes -- 35 -- 25 seconds of my life -- it was on call for 25 seconds. And I apologize for it over and over again.
TUCHMAN: What did you say to Martha though?
TOOGOOD: As soon as I pulled away -- she had pigtails in her hair. She told me that her -- my pigtail -- her pigtail was messed up. And I said, "Martha, I'm sorry -- I shouldn't have pulled your pigtail. I'm sorry, Martha -- I shouldn't have pulled your pigtail. I shouldn't have did that."
And I fixed her pigtails. I apologized. But did I think I -- did I think it was as bad as it was? No -- I didn't think I ...
TUCHMAN: What did she say to you after you apologized?
TOOGOOD: She was less than friendly to me -- "Fine." No -- she really never said nothing to me. She's ...
TUCHMAN: You face the possibility of up to three years in prison. Do you think -- are you concerned that you might not get your child back?
TOOGOOD: Yeah -- I'm concerned. I just want her to go to somebody she knows. That's my biggest concern right now. She's with strangers.
That would be fine if she just got to go with somebody she knows.
TUCHMAN: What did you tell her when she left you yesterday when you surrendered?
TOOGOOD: I didn't get to see her. My husband -- my husband seen her.
TUCHMAN: What was the last thing you said to her?
TOOGOOD: I said, "I'll be back in a minute." I gave her a kiss and I said, "I'll be back in a minute."
I didn't think -- I didn't think they were going to -- I didn't think they were going to take her. I thought they were going to leave her with my husband.
TUCHMAN: Do you understand the viewpoint, though, of the state here? They just want to really play it cautious. This was a violent ...
TOOGOOD: Right.
TUCHMAN: ... attack on your child. They're not sure what to do. They want to make sure she's safe.
TOOGOOD: I just wish they would have kept me and let her go home with my husband if they were afraid of me.
TUCHMAN: But you hang out with your husband.
TOOGOOD: No -- we he already said we were -- we would separate. If she -- if he wanted to take her out of state -- no -- if it come between my child being in -- she could have went with anybody -- any member of my family and I wouldn't have went near her. If they told me I -- she was going to go to foster care if I went near her, I wouldn't have went near my little girl.
TUCHMAN: Rocket Rosen, is it understandable that the state might be a little cautious about necessarily believing that -- the fact being that as Madelyne has told us, her family protected her for the last week before she turned herself in. Is that understandable from your viewpoint?
ROSEN: It's understandable that CPS wants to err on the side of caution. But I believe that Madelyne comes from such strong family ties that the best -- the best interest of the child were to be with a family member.
The child has lived through an excruciating time -- has been traumatized. If that's so, why add to the trauma? Why add to this child's estrangement from her family? Her loneliness? The lack of love? The lack of caring?
Not that the foster home would not give it -- I'm sure they would. But to be in a home where the child is comfortable when they're going to need the love, need the caring, need the sharing, need the happiness, need the closeness -- I just thought it was a mistake on their part to place her with foster care.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne, do you think you're a victim here?
TOOGOOD: No. TUCHMAN: It seems like you're saying that the state is doing something wrong.
TOOGOOD: They're probably just doing their job. I just wish they would have gave Martha to a family member.
TUCHMAN: How are you coping right now? You know you've done something terribly wrong. You're basically admitting you're guilty of these charges, which are serious charges. How are you coping with this right now?
TOOGOOD: I can even think of me right now. I guess I'm fine -- I'm coping -- I'm here.
TUCHMAN: Tell us about Martha. What kind of little girl is she?
TOOGOOD: Martha is -- I would say a typical four year old but she's not. Martha runs everything. Martha is extremely loud. When she even talks she's loud.
She -- when you first meet her she's real shy. When you're around her a little bit she's loud and she over-talks everybody. And she's extremely smart for a four year old. She runs the boys like she's older than they are. And she a mother to them. She likes to tell everybody what to do and how to do it.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne, the fact that you didn't say good bye to her before she left, you don't know when you're going to see her again -- that's what I'm really getting at. How do you cope with that?
TOOGOOD: The fact that my child might wake up in the middle of the night with a bad dream and not be able to go to somebody's bed that she don't know -- that's worse to me than anything else -- that she can't go -- she's not going to feel comfortable to go to somebody and say, "I'm scared -- I want to get in bed," or, "I'm thirsty -- I want a drink."
She don't have her own blanket. She don't have none of her clothes yet. And the lady that took her my husband said was real nice and stayed that -- and stayed the night with. Stayed -- I think she stayed with her that night because she was so upset, which I appreciate very much. If that's how -- I don't -- I only get little details of it -- if that's what happened because she doesn't really care if I ...
TUCHMAN: How scared are you of going to jail?
TOOGOOD: Terrified. Terrified -- yeah -- terrified -- terrified of going to jail.
TUCHMAN: What would you say to Martha if you could talk to her right now?
TOOGOOD: I just -- I just miss her and she's going to be home. I'm doing everything I can to get her. And she's going to be back with somebody that she knows. And I'm sure the people are very nice that she's with but they're still strangers to Martha.
TUCHMAN: Do you wish you turned yourself in sooner because that could work against you -- the fact that your family helped protect you?
The state says that your family wasn't real cooperative.
TOOGOOD: I turned myself in as soon as the warrant come for me. A warrant came ...
TUCHMAN: But you knew the video was out before that and you were on the video?
TOOGOOD: Of course I did -- yeah. I wanted an unbiased opinion and I wanted the best circumstances to bring my child and myself in. I wanted to make sure when it was safe for us to come in.
TUCHMAN: And the final question for you, Madelyne -- your advice to other parents? I know that as a parent myself I feel real guilty sometimes when I put my children in their room for the night without their supper when they're not good. You've done something that very few parents hopefully will ever do and I'm wondering what your advice is to other people out there?
TOOGOOD: Well, the people that would even think about doing it -- don't raise your hand to a child -- it ain't worth it. I -- it ain't worth what it does to the family. I've ruined -- not even that my life is ruined -- but that's far for the poorer -- I did it. But I've ruined my husband's life, I've ruined innocent people's lives, I've ruined my mother and father's, my -- his mother and father. Martha right now ...
TUCHMAN: And your two sons who are five and six are with your husband right now?
TOOGOOD: They're with a relative right now.
TUCHMAN: And are you allowed to see them?
TOOGOOD: They're mine -- yeah. They said they're not even -- they told -- they guaranteed me that they're not going to touch my sons. They don't want them. They promised me they don't -- they're fine and they're not going to try for them.
TUCHMAN: And would I bet -- I haven't talked to you about this before but if you could relive September 13 over again I bet you would do it in two seconds.
TOOGOOD: If I had it all ...
TUCHMAN: If you could relive it over?
TOOGOOD: Oh, my God. If -- yeah -- if I could take it back -- oh, my God -- yeah. It would be my only wish of wishes right now.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne Toogood and Rocket Rosen, I want to thank both of you for talking with us. I appreciate the time.
TOOGOOD: Thank you.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne will be arraigned in court here in northern Indiana tomorrow. Fredricka, back to you.
WHITFIELD: All right -- Gary Tuchman, thank you very much. CNN's Gary Tuchman with that one on one exclusive interview with Madelyne Toogood and her attorney from South Bend, Indiana.
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Aired September 22, 2002 - 18:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The woman seen in a surveillance video that shocked the nation said -- yes -- she struck her child but she didn't injure the girl. And the mother says she is not a monster.
CNN's national correspondent Gary Tuchman is in South Bend with an exclusive first one-on-one interview with Madelyne Toogood.
Hi there, Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, there, Fredricka. The whole nation has seen the video. The whole world has seen this video. And now the woman in the video who was striking her child for a period of about 30 seconds on September 13 is with us right now.
This is Madelyne Toogood -- a 25-year-old woman -- turning 26 in a couple of weeks. And sitting to her right, Rocket Rosen, her Houston-based attorney.
Thank you ...
ROCKET ROSEN, ATTORNEY: Good afternoon.
TUCHMAN: Thank you both of you for joining us. We appreciate it.
Madelyne, the first question I want to ask you is when did you first see this video? Where were you? And how did it come about that you saw it?
MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, MOTHER: Somebody told my sister that it was going to be on CNN and I never seen it until a couple -- probably the next day when -- after it first started.
TUCHMAN: How did you feel when you saw this video and saw that it was you striking your child?
TOOGOOD: I knew I was wrong when I did it. I apologized. But I didn't know how bad -- I had no idea how ...
TUCHMAN: How did you know how bad it was? When you looked at it did you remember doing what you did?
TOOGOOD: No. I don't -- no -- I remember -- I remember pulling her hair and I know I slapped her but -- no -- I didn't know I -- no -- I didn't know -- no -- I don't remember it was that bad.
TUCHMAN: When we talk about how bad it was, what did you do? And you have been both very candid about this. What did you do to your daughter? We see that you're throwing your fists and we see that you're pulling hair. What was going on?
TOOGOOD: Can I answer all of that? I pulled her hair and I didn't throw a fist at her -- I slapped her with an open hand. And held my -- like that -- like think -- but the last of it wasn't -- I was like that -- was shaking her by the head -- the hair.
TUCHMAN: Why were you doing this?
TOOGOOD: There was no excuse. There would be no excuse in the world why I did it.
TUCHMAN: But you were at a Kohl's Department Store not far from here. What happened in that store that led you to be so angry?
TOOGOOD: I was nervous in the store. Martha was underneath things but I -- Martha is Martha and she's four years old and there's nothing she did that she hasn't did a million times. And I've never lashed out like that. So there was -- I can't make any excuses.
There was nothing that would provoke me to do something like that. It was just -- I don't know -- I don't know why I did it. I -- there would be no reason to explain why I did it because is no explanation for it.
TUCHMAN: Were you hit as a child?
TOOGOOD: No, I was never -- I was probably very repulsive as a child. I was never hit.
TUCHMAN: Have you hit your children before?
TOOGOOD: I've spanked them before. No -- I've never battered them before or abused them before.
TUCHMAN: You call it battering and abusing yourself.
TOOGOOD: It looks like it -- yeah.
TUCHMAN: But the fact that you're saying that -- this is the first time you've battered or abused a child and it was caught on video tape.
Do you consider yourself unlucky that you were caught?
TOOGOOD: Of course, I do. It's not that -- if there's 500 spots, that was the only spot in the whole thing. But maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Maybe -- it's ruined my life. Maybe it will save some other child, some other mothers from doing it to theirs.
It's -- I'm -- I can't walk outside. I'm a monster to everybody. And so hopefully somebody will be educated enough to know don't raise your hand to your child. Don't do it -- it's not worth it.
TUCHMAN: Rocket Rosen -- the candor we're hearing from your client and from yourself are very unusual. How come you're willing to speak so much about this? You're letting her speak so much. You basically admit -- she's basically admitting she's guilty of this crime.
ROSEN: Madelyne is an unusual girl and I guess I'm an unusual lawyer. It's the old cliche -- truth is the best -- I can't think of the cliche. Truth is your best way to go -- it's straightforward, it's honorable and it's believable.
And I told her from the day that I met her, "Come forward, turn yourself in like a lady, be genuine, be up front and honest because I believe your family, the American public, your friends have to know the truth."
And she's been up front and honest and I'm proud of her.
TUCHMAN: And you raise an interesting point -- come forward. But for eight days you didn't come forward. And where were you after this happened? Why didn't you ...
TOOGOOD: Well, I wasn't issued a warrant until Friday. I knew they were looking for me. But when I knew they had issued a warrant I came back.
TUCHMAN: Where did you go?
TOOGOOD: I flew to Maryland and I -- from Maryland I flew with my three children. From Maryland I went to a trauma doctor with my daughter when I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hit that I wanted an honest opinion.
TUCHMAN: A trauma doctor where?
TOOGOOD: In Baytown, New Jersey.
TUCHMAN: I think you were saying Bay Head, New Jersey.
TOOGOOD: Bay Head, New Jersey.
TUCHMAN: On the Jersey shore?
TOOGOOD: Yeah -- on the Jersey shore.
TUCHMAN: So you went to a doctor because you had seen the video and heard all of the coverage and were concerned?
TOOGOOD: And they were saying that she was -- they were saying she was abused and they were saying that she was battered. And there was not a mark on my child and there never was. There never was nothing on her.
TUCHMAN: You were hitting -- you seemed to be hitting her pretty hard. Did she have marks initially honestly?
TOOGOOD: Never. My child never had nothing on her -- never -- never.
She was only -- still -- her hair was pulled. The only place she was hit was her bottom and her -- in the middle of her back.
TUCHMAN: Are you embarrassed and ashamed?
TOOGOOD: Of course I am. I'm mortified. I'm mortified. I'm mortified what I did to my family, what I did to my husband, what I did to my -- I'm mortified.
TUCHMAN: And in the meantime the state has taken Martha away from you for the time being -- not only away from you but away from anyone in your family. She's living with a foster family right now.
How do you feel about that decision?
TOOGOOD: I don't think -- I think they should have gave her to somebody in my family. I don't think -- I think if it was anybody else's child they would have gave her to a member of their family.
TUCHMAN: Now you were alluding to the fact that you are an Irish Traveler.
TOOGOOD: No -- I'm alluding to the fact ...
TUCHMAN: Can you explain, first of all -- what is an Irish Traveler? This is an important point to tell our viewers.
TOOGOOD: I said before it's hard to explain -- it's hard to explain what you are. To me an Irish Traveler is me to me but that's just a small part of me.
TUCHMAN: Well, one of the things -- one thing we should tell our viewers is authorities were saying initially you were a transient ...
TOOGOOD: Yes.
TUCHMAN: ... and a nomad. And now we're being a little more specific. An Irish Traveler -- you are a member of about 200 to 300 people who travel around the country looking for different types of work, right?
TOOGOOD: Were are -- no -- they have -- they all -- they don't look for types of work. They all do the -- that's what -- my husband does paving work. That's what he does.
TUCHMAN: Paving -- OK.
TOOGOOD: He ...
TUCHMAN: But getting different jobs in different places?
TOOGOOD: Right. He owns his equipment. He is licensed in this state. He's Better Business Bureau. He does all of that.
TUCHMAN: But you were saying, though, that there is prejudice against ...
TOOGOOD: Yeah.
TUCHMAN: ... people like yourselves.
TOOGOOD: It's like -- it's like somebody -- like a bum sitting in front of a nice store. "We need you to move down. We don't want you here. Move"
TUCHMAN: So are you saying that's why you were nervous in the Kohl's Department Store?
TOOGOOD: That's why I was -- yeah -- that's why I was nervous there. But more -- that's why I was nervous to stay and let them look at her. I thought they were going to take her. They were going to say, "You have no permanent address. You ..."
That's why I thought they were going to take her.
TUCHMAN: You were nervous in the store because you are an Irish Traveler and you think they were looking at you funny? Is that what you are saying?
TOOGOOD: Yes.
TUCHMAN: Not that anything went wrong in the store? Not that you took anything or ...
TOOGOOD: No -- I never took nothing. I come in with a bag and I double-knotted before I went in. As soon as I walked through the door I double-knotted that bag twice.
TUCHMAN: But you think the camera outside was following you?
TOOGOOD: No -- I think the lady.
TUCHMAN: Why was the camera following you do you think?
TOOGOOD: Because -- I -- because they opened my bag in the middle of the store. I have in my shopping cart with my little girl. And somebody come over and opened up my bag -- unknotted it and opened it and looked through it. And I come over and said, "That's mine. What are you doing?"
And, "We're an attendant so we were -- we were just seeing what it was."
TUCHMAN: So they were suspicious of you?
TOOGOOD: My purse was in it. Yeah -- it wasn't unattended. It would be like a shopping cart -- a lady with a shopping cart that left -- yeah.
TUCHMAN: I was talking to you earlier in the state of Texas six months ago. You were arrested and charged with shoplifting in another Kohl's Department Store. TOOGOOD: Yeah -- ironic.
TUCHMAN: What was that all about?
TOOGOOD: Just ironic.
TUCHMAN: You've got to stay away from the Kohl's, right?
TOOGOOD: Yeah -- just ironic.
TUCHMAN: The fact is, Madelyne, that millions of people saw this video and they were just appalled at what they saw.
TOOGOOD: They should have been.
TUCHMAN: It was scary. It was violent.
TOOGOOD: It was.
TUCHMAN: And what do you say to all of the people who saw that and just feel this feeling towards you they can't express?
TOOGOOD: Well, it was 35 minutes -- 35 -- 25 seconds of my life -- it was on call for 25 seconds. And I apologize for it over and over again.
TUCHMAN: What did you say to Martha though?
TOOGOOD: As soon as I pulled away -- she had pigtails in her hair. She told me that her -- my pigtail -- her pigtail was messed up. And I said, "Martha, I'm sorry -- I shouldn't have pulled your pigtail. I'm sorry, Martha -- I shouldn't have pulled your pigtail. I shouldn't have did that."
And I fixed her pigtails. I apologized. But did I think I -- did I think it was as bad as it was? No -- I didn't think I ...
TUCHMAN: What did she say to you after you apologized?
TOOGOOD: She was less than friendly to me -- "Fine." No -- she really never said nothing to me. She's ...
TUCHMAN: You face the possibility of up to three years in prison. Do you think -- are you concerned that you might not get your child back?
TOOGOOD: Yeah -- I'm concerned. I just want her to go to somebody she knows. That's my biggest concern right now. She's with strangers.
That would be fine if she just got to go with somebody she knows.
TUCHMAN: What did you tell her when she left you yesterday when you surrendered?
TOOGOOD: I didn't get to see her. My husband -- my husband seen her.
TUCHMAN: What was the last thing you said to her?
TOOGOOD: I said, "I'll be back in a minute." I gave her a kiss and I said, "I'll be back in a minute."
I didn't think -- I didn't think they were going to -- I didn't think they were going to take her. I thought they were going to leave her with my husband.
TUCHMAN: Do you understand the viewpoint, though, of the state here? They just want to really play it cautious. This was a violent ...
TOOGOOD: Right.
TUCHMAN: ... attack on your child. They're not sure what to do. They want to make sure she's safe.
TOOGOOD: I just wish they would have kept me and let her go home with my husband if they were afraid of me.
TUCHMAN: But you hang out with your husband.
TOOGOOD: No -- we he already said we were -- we would separate. If she -- if he wanted to take her out of state -- no -- if it come between my child being in -- she could have went with anybody -- any member of my family and I wouldn't have went near her. If they told me I -- she was going to go to foster care if I went near her, I wouldn't have went near my little girl.
TUCHMAN: Rocket Rosen, is it understandable that the state might be a little cautious about necessarily believing that -- the fact being that as Madelyne has told us, her family protected her for the last week before she turned herself in. Is that understandable from your viewpoint?
ROSEN: It's understandable that CPS wants to err on the side of caution. But I believe that Madelyne comes from such strong family ties that the best -- the best interest of the child were to be with a family member.
The child has lived through an excruciating time -- has been traumatized. If that's so, why add to the trauma? Why add to this child's estrangement from her family? Her loneliness? The lack of love? The lack of caring?
Not that the foster home would not give it -- I'm sure they would. But to be in a home where the child is comfortable when they're going to need the love, need the caring, need the sharing, need the happiness, need the closeness -- I just thought it was a mistake on their part to place her with foster care.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne, do you think you're a victim here?
TOOGOOD: No. TUCHMAN: It seems like you're saying that the state is doing something wrong.
TOOGOOD: They're probably just doing their job. I just wish they would have gave Martha to a family member.
TUCHMAN: How are you coping right now? You know you've done something terribly wrong. You're basically admitting you're guilty of these charges, which are serious charges. How are you coping with this right now?
TOOGOOD: I can even think of me right now. I guess I'm fine -- I'm coping -- I'm here.
TUCHMAN: Tell us about Martha. What kind of little girl is she?
TOOGOOD: Martha is -- I would say a typical four year old but she's not. Martha runs everything. Martha is extremely loud. When she even talks she's loud.
She -- when you first meet her she's real shy. When you're around her a little bit she's loud and she over-talks everybody. And she's extremely smart for a four year old. She runs the boys like she's older than they are. And she a mother to them. She likes to tell everybody what to do and how to do it.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne, the fact that you didn't say good bye to her before she left, you don't know when you're going to see her again -- that's what I'm really getting at. How do you cope with that?
TOOGOOD: The fact that my child might wake up in the middle of the night with a bad dream and not be able to go to somebody's bed that she don't know -- that's worse to me than anything else -- that she can't go -- she's not going to feel comfortable to go to somebody and say, "I'm scared -- I want to get in bed," or, "I'm thirsty -- I want a drink."
She don't have her own blanket. She don't have none of her clothes yet. And the lady that took her my husband said was real nice and stayed that -- and stayed the night with. Stayed -- I think she stayed with her that night because she was so upset, which I appreciate very much. If that's how -- I don't -- I only get little details of it -- if that's what happened because she doesn't really care if I ...
TUCHMAN: How scared are you of going to jail?
TOOGOOD: Terrified. Terrified -- yeah -- terrified -- terrified of going to jail.
TUCHMAN: What would you say to Martha if you could talk to her right now?
TOOGOOD: I just -- I just miss her and she's going to be home. I'm doing everything I can to get her. And she's going to be back with somebody that she knows. And I'm sure the people are very nice that she's with but they're still strangers to Martha.
TUCHMAN: Do you wish you turned yourself in sooner because that could work against you -- the fact that your family helped protect you?
The state says that your family wasn't real cooperative.
TOOGOOD: I turned myself in as soon as the warrant come for me. A warrant came ...
TUCHMAN: But you knew the video was out before that and you were on the video?
TOOGOOD: Of course I did -- yeah. I wanted an unbiased opinion and I wanted the best circumstances to bring my child and myself in. I wanted to make sure when it was safe for us to come in.
TUCHMAN: And the final question for you, Madelyne -- your advice to other parents? I know that as a parent myself I feel real guilty sometimes when I put my children in their room for the night without their supper when they're not good. You've done something that very few parents hopefully will ever do and I'm wondering what your advice is to other people out there?
TOOGOOD: Well, the people that would even think about doing it -- don't raise your hand to a child -- it ain't worth it. I -- it ain't worth what it does to the family. I've ruined -- not even that my life is ruined -- but that's far for the poorer -- I did it. But I've ruined my husband's life, I've ruined innocent people's lives, I've ruined my mother and father's, my -- his mother and father. Martha right now ...
TUCHMAN: And your two sons who are five and six are with your husband right now?
TOOGOOD: They're with a relative right now.
TUCHMAN: And are you allowed to see them?
TOOGOOD: They're mine -- yeah. They said they're not even -- they told -- they guaranteed me that they're not going to touch my sons. They don't want them. They promised me they don't -- they're fine and they're not going to try for them.
TUCHMAN: And would I bet -- I haven't talked to you about this before but if you could relive September 13 over again I bet you would do it in two seconds.
TOOGOOD: If I had it all ...
TUCHMAN: If you could relive it over?
TOOGOOD: Oh, my God. If -- yeah -- if I could take it back -- oh, my God -- yeah. It would be my only wish of wishes right now.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne Toogood and Rocket Rosen, I want to thank both of you for talking with us. I appreciate the time.
TOOGOOD: Thank you.
TUCHMAN: Madelyne will be arraigned in court here in northern Indiana tomorrow. Fredricka, back to you.
WHITFIELD: All right -- Gary Tuchman, thank you very much. CNN's Gary Tuchman with that one on one exclusive interview with Madelyne Toogood and her attorney from South Bend, Indiana.
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