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CNN Live Sunday
Interview With Ronald Singer
Aired October 13, 2002 - 17:20 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Returning now to the Washington area sniper killings. The cover story of the latest issue of "TIME" magazine is dedicated to new developments in the forensic technology. For an insight on how that might help find the sniper, we are joined from Dallas by Ronald Singer, he is the crime lab director at the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's Office in Forth Worth, Texas, and he's also secretary of the American Academy of Forensic Science. Good to see you. Thanks for joining us.
RONALD SINGER, AMERICAN ACADEMY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES: It's a pleasure to be here.
WHITFIELD: OK. It seems as though there's very little physical evidence that has been lifted from the crime scenes in the Washington area. We know there are shell casings, we know that there is this Tarot card. But how significant is the finding of at least those two types of physical evidence?
SINGER: Well, I think that it's very significant, given the technology that we have available to us today. There's an awful lot of information that we could potentially at least derive from the Tarot card and the shell casings.
WHITFIELD: Like what?
SINGER: Well, the Tarot card itself has the potential of having trace evidence on it. That is material that, because of its size and weight is easy transferred from one individual or person or object to another individual or object.
WHITFIELD: Meaning like fingerprints, or even fibers?
SINGER: Fingerprints are certainly one, but I'm thinking more along the lines of fibers or other small debris that the perpetrator himself may carry with him to the scene and then leave on that card. Things that are so small that the investigator, when they see the card, may not recognize that. But when it gets into the laboratory, the instrumentation that we have available to us can certainly detect that.
The same thing is true with the cartridge case as well. We focus on the firearms part of this, which is of course very important. But the cartridge case also potentially has evidence on it that we can find over and above the ballistics evidence.
WHITFIELD: So that's why it's so important to protect the integrity of these items when they're retrieved as well, right? What kind of technology is used to lift this kind of evidence?
SINGER: Well, we have a battery of microscopes that go from the most simple of hand lenses all the way up to a scanning electron microscope that we can use to visualize that evidence. We also have a lot of chemical technology and laser technology that's available to us, that can help us see things that we may not ordinarily see just with the visible eye.
In addition, once we collect the evidence, the potential information that we can get from that evidence is so much greater today than it was, say, even five years ago, that I think that if an incident like this has to occur, this is certainly a good time, at least forensically.
WHITFIELD: So even if this person who may be responsible doesn't have a criminal record, they would still be able to use that information, such as fingerprints et cetera, to help trace it to?
SINGER: That's Correct. Fingerprints may be problematic if the person has no record or has never been in the job that requires fingerprinting. Has never been in the military, say, or has never done any of the types of jobs that might be related to defense work, where background checks have to be done. But over and above the fingerprint itself, the fingerprint potentially contains DNA. If there are enough epofilial (ph) cells present on the fingerprint, we can actually get DNA out of that, and of course that can be used to link back to the perpetrator, should we apprehend him.
WHITFIELD: Now, one of the shooting sites, in Prince George's County, at the Tasker middle school, it has been reported that this sniper or snipers may have been laying and waiting in the woods nearby. So what potentially kind of evidence might have been pulled from the grounds there, outside of the Tarot card? But would they be able to pull fibers? I mean, how difficult would that be to pull that from that scene?
SINGER: Absolutely. I think that, you know, the more surface that the perpetrator presents to the crime scene, the more likely it is that you're going get some kind of transfer of material. And in that case, you have got the potential of DNA coming from any exposed areas of the skin. You've got the potential of fibers from his clothing. You've got the potential certainly of gunshot residue being left there so that you can localize the area that you want to look at. There are a myriad of things that we can find there, and it's limited only, really, by your imagination at this point.
WHITFIELD: Even though there's a lot of potential, as you say, from the evidence that's already been gathered, is it your concern, though, that it's really going to take a slip-up or a mistake from this sniper or team of snipers in order to lead to an apprehension, that perhaps the evidence gathered so far just really isn't enough?
SINGER: Well, I think there's two things there that you want to consider. First of all, I'm sure that the investigators are not releasing to the public all of the information that they've gathered. So we're basing our assumptions on only part of the evidence. The other thing that you need to consider is that most cases like this generally are broken by something other than the forensic evidence. The forensic evidence is there to nail down the suspect once you develop him. Very rarely can we come up, at least at this point, with a description, say, or some of the other things that you might see on some of the popular television shows.
WHITFIELD: All right, Ronald Singer, thank you very much for joining us, from the Dallas-Forth Worth area, as the director of the Tarrant County Medical Examiners Office. Appreciate it. Thank you.
SINGER: It was my pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 13, 2002 - 17:20 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Returning now to the Washington area sniper killings. The cover story of the latest issue of "TIME" magazine is dedicated to new developments in the forensic technology. For an insight on how that might help find the sniper, we are joined from Dallas by Ronald Singer, he is the crime lab director at the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's Office in Forth Worth, Texas, and he's also secretary of the American Academy of Forensic Science. Good to see you. Thanks for joining us.
RONALD SINGER, AMERICAN ACADEMY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES: It's a pleasure to be here.
WHITFIELD: OK. It seems as though there's very little physical evidence that has been lifted from the crime scenes in the Washington area. We know there are shell casings, we know that there is this Tarot card. But how significant is the finding of at least those two types of physical evidence?
SINGER: Well, I think that it's very significant, given the technology that we have available to us today. There's an awful lot of information that we could potentially at least derive from the Tarot card and the shell casings.
WHITFIELD: Like what?
SINGER: Well, the Tarot card itself has the potential of having trace evidence on it. That is material that, because of its size and weight is easy transferred from one individual or person or object to another individual or object.
WHITFIELD: Meaning like fingerprints, or even fibers?
SINGER: Fingerprints are certainly one, but I'm thinking more along the lines of fibers or other small debris that the perpetrator himself may carry with him to the scene and then leave on that card. Things that are so small that the investigator, when they see the card, may not recognize that. But when it gets into the laboratory, the instrumentation that we have available to us can certainly detect that.
The same thing is true with the cartridge case as well. We focus on the firearms part of this, which is of course very important. But the cartridge case also potentially has evidence on it that we can find over and above the ballistics evidence.
WHITFIELD: So that's why it's so important to protect the integrity of these items when they're retrieved as well, right? What kind of technology is used to lift this kind of evidence?
SINGER: Well, we have a battery of microscopes that go from the most simple of hand lenses all the way up to a scanning electron microscope that we can use to visualize that evidence. We also have a lot of chemical technology and laser technology that's available to us, that can help us see things that we may not ordinarily see just with the visible eye.
In addition, once we collect the evidence, the potential information that we can get from that evidence is so much greater today than it was, say, even five years ago, that I think that if an incident like this has to occur, this is certainly a good time, at least forensically.
WHITFIELD: So even if this person who may be responsible doesn't have a criminal record, they would still be able to use that information, such as fingerprints et cetera, to help trace it to?
SINGER: That's Correct. Fingerprints may be problematic if the person has no record or has never been in the job that requires fingerprinting. Has never been in the military, say, or has never done any of the types of jobs that might be related to defense work, where background checks have to be done. But over and above the fingerprint itself, the fingerprint potentially contains DNA. If there are enough epofilial (ph) cells present on the fingerprint, we can actually get DNA out of that, and of course that can be used to link back to the perpetrator, should we apprehend him.
WHITFIELD: Now, one of the shooting sites, in Prince George's County, at the Tasker middle school, it has been reported that this sniper or snipers may have been laying and waiting in the woods nearby. So what potentially kind of evidence might have been pulled from the grounds there, outside of the Tarot card? But would they be able to pull fibers? I mean, how difficult would that be to pull that from that scene?
SINGER: Absolutely. I think that, you know, the more surface that the perpetrator presents to the crime scene, the more likely it is that you're going get some kind of transfer of material. And in that case, you have got the potential of DNA coming from any exposed areas of the skin. You've got the potential of fibers from his clothing. You've got the potential certainly of gunshot residue being left there so that you can localize the area that you want to look at. There are a myriad of things that we can find there, and it's limited only, really, by your imagination at this point.
WHITFIELD: Even though there's a lot of potential, as you say, from the evidence that's already been gathered, is it your concern, though, that it's really going to take a slip-up or a mistake from this sniper or team of snipers in order to lead to an apprehension, that perhaps the evidence gathered so far just really isn't enough?
SINGER: Well, I think there's two things there that you want to consider. First of all, I'm sure that the investigators are not releasing to the public all of the information that they've gathered. So we're basing our assumptions on only part of the evidence. The other thing that you need to consider is that most cases like this generally are broken by something other than the forensic evidence. The forensic evidence is there to nail down the suspect once you develop him. Very rarely can we come up, at least at this point, with a description, say, or some of the other things that you might see on some of the popular television shows.
WHITFIELD: All right, Ronald Singer, thank you very much for joining us, from the Dallas-Forth Worth area, as the director of the Tarrant County Medical Examiners Office. Appreciate it. Thank you.
SINGER: It was my pleasure.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
