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CNN Live Sunday

Moscow: 115 Hostages Died From Gas Used by Russian Troops

Aired October 27, 2002 - 17:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: In Moscow, the theater siege is over, but the anger is just beginning. Authorities say 115 hostages died from the gas used by Russian troops to end the standoff. CNN's Mike Hanna reports on the aftermath of the military assault.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Lyosha, Lyosha," a mother calls from the crowd, "how are you?" Her son at the window above, one of the hundreds of people still being held in Moscow hospitals.

"Have you got your glasses," she asks. "When are you going to come out?" After a prolonged silence that dismayed and angered anxious relatives and friends, Russian health authorities finally disclosed more details about how the hostages died. All but two of the nearly 120 dead hostages were the victims of gas used by the rescuers.

Shortly before special forces stormed the theater in the early hours of Saturday morning, some form of unidentified gas was dispersed in the auditorium. The gas, say health officials now, was a form of narcotic used in surgery. But in this case, a massive concentration of the agent was used. That's because of the need to immediately subdue the captors to prevent them from detonating the explosives placed around the theater and wrapped around some of their bodies.

Over 600 people are still in hospitals. About a third of these in intensive care. And some 40 are described as being in a critical condition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had been seated without moving for more than 50 hours. They had not had enough water and food. Many of them were suffering from chronic diseases in the first place. All of these factors intensified the effect of the special material. Also, the fact that a special forces operation was under way delayed the arrival of medical help.

HANNA: These details, as well as an apology from President Vladimir Putin, cold comfort to those who have lost friends and relatives.

(on camera): Monday has been declared a day of national mourning amidst the grief of mounting anger at the loss of so many lives. The Chechen separatists who were responsible for the situation in the first place are mostly dead, but the possibility now that the authorities, too, will be held accountable.

Mike Hanna, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And as you just heard from Mike Hanna, Russian forces said they had to use high concentrations of gas to immobilize the Chechen rebels. After all, they had threatened to start killing the hostages just as the troop assault began. But was there another way to end that siege without such a high cost of civilian lives?

Let's turn to CNN Security Analyst Kelly McCann. Among other things, he's provided S.W.A.T. training to police in Boston, and that is why we have him on the phone today -- hi, Kelly, how are you?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Heidi.

COLLINS: I want to ask you, Kelly, before we even begin, we have seen the al Qaeda tapes that we had obtained from Afghanistan. And we had seen some of these hostage situations there on a much smaller scale. We need to be very careful about how much we would talk about what we would do in the United States perhaps if this sort of thing happened. But tell me what your reaction would be, without speculating of course, on the fact that they did use gas at all.

MCCANN: Well, these kinds of agents have been around for some time. When I was a counterterrorism officer, people have knowledge of these kinds of thing. But the problem is always how do you introduce it in a quantity or a dosage that is uniform enough to not create the situation we see now. In either extreme of age or extreme of, you know, illness, some people are healthy, some people are not, some people are fit, some people are not. So it's a very, very tricky thing.

But we have to be very careful not to second-guess these individuals too much. Because that was the worst situation, to have a huge cavernous opening with 840 innocent occupants, 46 combatants mixed in with them, creating a discriminate shooting situation. Plus they had the imminent capability to use explosives, so this was a very, very difficult objective.

COLLINS: Have you ever seen anything like this at all before? I mean I know we've seen other hostage situations, of course, but to this size?

MCCANN: I don't believe we've seen any to this size in such a venue. You've got to remember that one of the most important things is observation. And because of the layout of this venue they didn't have to have the ability to put eyes on target very easily and get information. So I think that the Russians did just about the only thing they could do.

The agent that they used is undisclosed, as it should be. And you know the effect can sometimes be harmful to innocents. I mean, the result, though, is 750 people lived.

COLLINS: That's absolutely right. So then, in thinking about that, do you think that this was the very best option?

MCCANN: Without knowing the whole tactical situation, Heidi, it would be awful difficult to say. But I know that the Russians have worked earnestly over the last decade to improve their counterterrorism capability. And they have some very stout men that are on those teams. So I think that they probably chose the best options they could, given the fact that the Chechnyans had said your time is up and we're going to start killing hostages now. I think they felt the imminence and they decided to go.

COLLINS: I'm sure that they did. All right. CNN Security Analyst Kelly McCann, thank you so much for being here with us today.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired October 27, 2002 - 17:06   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: In Moscow, the theater siege is over, but the anger is just beginning. Authorities say 115 hostages died from the gas used by Russian troops to end the standoff. CNN's Mike Hanna reports on the aftermath of the military assault.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Lyosha, Lyosha," a mother calls from the crowd, "how are you?" Her son at the window above, one of the hundreds of people still being held in Moscow hospitals.

"Have you got your glasses," she asks. "When are you going to come out?" After a prolonged silence that dismayed and angered anxious relatives and friends, Russian health authorities finally disclosed more details about how the hostages died. All but two of the nearly 120 dead hostages were the victims of gas used by the rescuers.

Shortly before special forces stormed the theater in the early hours of Saturday morning, some form of unidentified gas was dispersed in the auditorium. The gas, say health officials now, was a form of narcotic used in surgery. But in this case, a massive concentration of the agent was used. That's because of the need to immediately subdue the captors to prevent them from detonating the explosives placed around the theater and wrapped around some of their bodies.

Over 600 people are still in hospitals. About a third of these in intensive care. And some 40 are described as being in a critical condition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had been seated without moving for more than 50 hours. They had not had enough water and food. Many of them were suffering from chronic diseases in the first place. All of these factors intensified the effect of the special material. Also, the fact that a special forces operation was under way delayed the arrival of medical help.

HANNA: These details, as well as an apology from President Vladimir Putin, cold comfort to those who have lost friends and relatives.

(on camera): Monday has been declared a day of national mourning amidst the grief of mounting anger at the loss of so many lives. The Chechen separatists who were responsible for the situation in the first place are mostly dead, but the possibility now that the authorities, too, will be held accountable.

Mike Hanna, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And as you just heard from Mike Hanna, Russian forces said they had to use high concentrations of gas to immobilize the Chechen rebels. After all, they had threatened to start killing the hostages just as the troop assault began. But was there another way to end that siege without such a high cost of civilian lives?

Let's turn to CNN Security Analyst Kelly McCann. Among other things, he's provided S.W.A.T. training to police in Boston, and that is why we have him on the phone today -- hi, Kelly, how are you?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Hi, Heidi.

COLLINS: I want to ask you, Kelly, before we even begin, we have seen the al Qaeda tapes that we had obtained from Afghanistan. And we had seen some of these hostage situations there on a much smaller scale. We need to be very careful about how much we would talk about what we would do in the United States perhaps if this sort of thing happened. But tell me what your reaction would be, without speculating of course, on the fact that they did use gas at all.

MCCANN: Well, these kinds of agents have been around for some time. When I was a counterterrorism officer, people have knowledge of these kinds of thing. But the problem is always how do you introduce it in a quantity or a dosage that is uniform enough to not create the situation we see now. In either extreme of age or extreme of, you know, illness, some people are healthy, some people are not, some people are fit, some people are not. So it's a very, very tricky thing.

But we have to be very careful not to second-guess these individuals too much. Because that was the worst situation, to have a huge cavernous opening with 840 innocent occupants, 46 combatants mixed in with them, creating a discriminate shooting situation. Plus they had the imminent capability to use explosives, so this was a very, very difficult objective.

COLLINS: Have you ever seen anything like this at all before? I mean I know we've seen other hostage situations, of course, but to this size?

MCCANN: I don't believe we've seen any to this size in such a venue. You've got to remember that one of the most important things is observation. And because of the layout of this venue they didn't have to have the ability to put eyes on target very easily and get information. So I think that the Russians did just about the only thing they could do.

The agent that they used is undisclosed, as it should be. And you know the effect can sometimes be harmful to innocents. I mean, the result, though, is 750 people lived.

COLLINS: That's absolutely right. So then, in thinking about that, do you think that this was the very best option?

MCCANN: Without knowing the whole tactical situation, Heidi, it would be awful difficult to say. But I know that the Russians have worked earnestly over the last decade to improve their counterterrorism capability. And they have some very stout men that are on those teams. So I think that they probably chose the best options they could, given the fact that the Chechnyans had said your time is up and we're going to start killing hostages now. I think they felt the imminence and they decided to go.

COLLINS: I'm sure that they did. All right. CNN Security Analyst Kelly McCann, thank you so much for being here with us today.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com