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CNN Live Sunday

Interview With Tony Karon

Aired December 08, 2002 - 17:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: This Iraqi document is a massive challenge. Thousands of pages, all to be studied in great detail and compared to earlier records for possible inconsistencies.
Some are now saying there is an easier way, and a better way at that, to learn if Iraq is hiding band weapons. Take Iraqi scientists out of Iraq, offer them and their families' protection, and ask them what they know.

Joining us now to talk more about this is Tony Karon of the online edition of "TIME" magazine, he is in New York. Hi, Tony.

TONY KARON, TIME.COM: Good evening, Carol.

LIN: Actually, in particular I'd like to talk to you about an article that's coming out in this week's "TIME" magazine about the nature of the U.N. weapons inspections. I mean, I'm hearing that "TIME" magazine sources are hearing that the United Nations chose the Al-Sajoud presidential palace the other day for different reasons other than weapons inspections. What is it that you're hearing?

KARON: Correct. I think that particularly the Iraqis are very concerned and they were clearly a little rattled by that inspection of the palace this week. The reason being that within ten minutes of the inspectors arriving, Saddam Hussein's personal assistant and right hand man arrived at the gate to order that they be allowed in.

Now, this man is never -- is never -- is rumored to be never far from Saddam's right -- side -- and what the Iraqis are saying is that the U.S. actually sent the inspectors to the site in the belief that Saddam was actually present and that they were using this as a way of tracking their own intelligence to find Saddam in the event of a conflict and obviously they are very concerned about this.

LIN: That's right, and didn't they get a form of confirmation of that? Weren't they greeted by Saddam's personal secretary?

KARON: Well, exactly. The fact that he arrived at the gate was precisely what alerted people to the fact that Saddam may very well have been present. And, you know, there's the immediate security fact but there's also in general for the Iraqis -- it's a very difficult situation where a regime that's based so strongly on fear and projecting fear of the leader -- you know -- now has to open its gates every time -- you know -- a group of scientists in baseball caps comes near, and obviously that doesn't look very good in terms of his projection of fear. LIN: But it also raises a lot of questions about what these inspections are really about.

KARON: Well, I think the real two and fro battle that's going on over the inspections now really consist of the fact that the inspectors are under pressure from both sides; from the Iraqis and from the U.S. side. And in some ways the pressure from both sides helps to establish their credibility.

Essentially they aren't there to find some sort of smoking gun for weapons and they're trying to maintain their independence; they're slapping down the U.S. on the one hand and the Iraqis on the other hand...

LIN: But to be more clear, it sounds like the Iraqis are saying you know what, we've always thought all along these weapons inspectors were spies and now we're saying they are spies working for the U.S. government which is calling the shots, telling them where to go so that they can test out their intelligence.

KARON: Correct; the Iraqis are saying this and at the same time they are cooperating so it's a sort of mixed message. They've always said that, you know, they don't -- they don't believe that UNSCOM will remain, and will remain independent, that will send intelligence to the U.S.

Obviously, UNMOVIC is trying to maintain it's independence and it's also saying to the U.N. -- U.S. -- you haven't actually shown us yet where to go to find the smoking gun so please if you have this intelligence, you know, hand it over now.

LIN: Right, and maybe one of the toughest and truest tests could be under this resolution, the U.N. resolution, 1441, that these U.N. weapons inspectors be allowed to take Iraqi scientists and their families out of the country so that there would be no repercussions or blackmail against them for giving information to these weapons inspectors. Is that going to happen and how it's going to happen?

KARON: Well I think that the U.N. inspectors are very cautious about using this. Obviously they see themselves as being -- pursuing these scientists and asking them questions and wanting to interview them in very safe circumstances but they don't want to be seen as either abducting people or facilitating defections, so it's a really fine line and to the question of how voluntarily the scientists are going to ask to be interviewed under those circumstances I think I don't -- you know -- the U.S. is suggesting that maybe some of these people could be taken out and then asked the question whether they want to cooperate or go back or not but I don't think realistically that Mr. Blix is going to actually pursue that route. I think this is going to be the subject of some debate in the Security Council in the coming weeks.

LIN: Yes, is it clear that if these scientists don't want to go if they can be taken against their will according to the U.N. resolution? KARON: I -- you know -- I don't think so. I -- certainly the U.N. -- the U.N. officials have -- seem to be indicating that that's not possible, that they can't take people against their will.

LIN: All right, we shall see what happens. Thank you very much, Tony Karon from time.com.

KARON: You're welcome.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 8, 2002 - 17:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: This Iraqi document is a massive challenge. Thousands of pages, all to be studied in great detail and compared to earlier records for possible inconsistencies.
Some are now saying there is an easier way, and a better way at that, to learn if Iraq is hiding band weapons. Take Iraqi scientists out of Iraq, offer them and their families' protection, and ask them what they know.

Joining us now to talk more about this is Tony Karon of the online edition of "TIME" magazine, he is in New York. Hi, Tony.

TONY KARON, TIME.COM: Good evening, Carol.

LIN: Actually, in particular I'd like to talk to you about an article that's coming out in this week's "TIME" magazine about the nature of the U.N. weapons inspections. I mean, I'm hearing that "TIME" magazine sources are hearing that the United Nations chose the Al-Sajoud presidential palace the other day for different reasons other than weapons inspections. What is it that you're hearing?

KARON: Correct. I think that particularly the Iraqis are very concerned and they were clearly a little rattled by that inspection of the palace this week. The reason being that within ten minutes of the inspectors arriving, Saddam Hussein's personal assistant and right hand man arrived at the gate to order that they be allowed in.

Now, this man is never -- is never -- is rumored to be never far from Saddam's right -- side -- and what the Iraqis are saying is that the U.S. actually sent the inspectors to the site in the belief that Saddam was actually present and that they were using this as a way of tracking their own intelligence to find Saddam in the event of a conflict and obviously they are very concerned about this.

LIN: That's right, and didn't they get a form of confirmation of that? Weren't they greeted by Saddam's personal secretary?

KARON: Well, exactly. The fact that he arrived at the gate was precisely what alerted people to the fact that Saddam may very well have been present. And, you know, there's the immediate security fact but there's also in general for the Iraqis -- it's a very difficult situation where a regime that's based so strongly on fear and projecting fear of the leader -- you know -- now has to open its gates every time -- you know -- a group of scientists in baseball caps comes near, and obviously that doesn't look very good in terms of his projection of fear. LIN: But it also raises a lot of questions about what these inspections are really about.

KARON: Well, I think the real two and fro battle that's going on over the inspections now really consist of the fact that the inspectors are under pressure from both sides; from the Iraqis and from the U.S. side. And in some ways the pressure from both sides helps to establish their credibility.

Essentially they aren't there to find some sort of smoking gun for weapons and they're trying to maintain their independence; they're slapping down the U.S. on the one hand and the Iraqis on the other hand...

LIN: But to be more clear, it sounds like the Iraqis are saying you know what, we've always thought all along these weapons inspectors were spies and now we're saying they are spies working for the U.S. government which is calling the shots, telling them where to go so that they can test out their intelligence.

KARON: Correct; the Iraqis are saying this and at the same time they are cooperating so it's a sort of mixed message. They've always said that, you know, they don't -- they don't believe that UNSCOM will remain, and will remain independent, that will send intelligence to the U.S.

Obviously, UNMOVIC is trying to maintain it's independence and it's also saying to the U.N. -- U.S. -- you haven't actually shown us yet where to go to find the smoking gun so please if you have this intelligence, you know, hand it over now.

LIN: Right, and maybe one of the toughest and truest tests could be under this resolution, the U.N. resolution, 1441, that these U.N. weapons inspectors be allowed to take Iraqi scientists and their families out of the country so that there would be no repercussions or blackmail against them for giving information to these weapons inspectors. Is that going to happen and how it's going to happen?

KARON: Well I think that the U.N. inspectors are very cautious about using this. Obviously they see themselves as being -- pursuing these scientists and asking them questions and wanting to interview them in very safe circumstances but they don't want to be seen as either abducting people or facilitating defections, so it's a really fine line and to the question of how voluntarily the scientists are going to ask to be interviewed under those circumstances I think I don't -- you know -- the U.S. is suggesting that maybe some of these people could be taken out and then asked the question whether they want to cooperate or go back or not but I don't think realistically that Mr. Blix is going to actually pursue that route. I think this is going to be the subject of some debate in the Security Council in the coming weeks.

LIN: Yes, is it clear that if these scientists don't want to go if they can be taken against their will according to the U.N. resolution? KARON: I -- you know -- I don't think so. I -- certainly the U.N. -- the U.N. officials have -- seem to be indicating that that's not possible, that they can't take people against their will.

LIN: All right, we shall see what happens. Thank you very much, Tony Karon from time.com.

KARON: You're welcome.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com