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CNN Live Sunday
Father Suspected Of Killing His Children Taken On Crosscountry Road Trip
Aired July 20, 2003 - 18:13 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDERICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A father suspected of killing his two children may be back in New Hampshire as early as tomorrow after a cross-country road trip that has his lawyer outraged.
Sarah and Phillip Gehring vanished after leaving Concord with their dad, Manuel Gehring, July 4. Police believe the children were killed and left somewhere along Gehring's route west to California.
Police and FBI agents began driving him back from the West Coast on Tuesday. Well, they've spent six days on the road now with him, retracing his route, apparently.
His attorney says that's plenty of opportunity for coercion. So, is this cross-country drive legitimate? Or does it infringe on Gearing's rights?
Let's ask civil rights attorney Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, president of the Greater Miami American Civil Liberties Union, and former prosecutor James Curtis, an anchor at "COURT TV" in New York.
Good to see both of you.
JAMES CURTIS, COURT TV, NEW YORK: Thanks.
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi.
WHITFIELD: All right, Lida, ladies first, let me begin with you.
How long does it take generally for extradition? What is considered a little too egregious?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Well, this is obviously a little too egregious. They could have rented a camel and been there quicker.
And you've got to ask yourself why it is it's taking this long. And it's got to do with the fact that they're trying to coerce him into confessing, into telling them where the bodies are, and to giving up some sort of information that will help him -- to help them convict him.
WHITFIELD: Well, James, do you see it like this? Is this coercion at its best?
JAMES CURTIS: Absolutely not. I mean, come on. We don't know exactly what's going on or what these police officers as they continue, clearly, their investigation into the disappearance of these children, which is certainly the paramount concern of everyone involved in this investigation.
There is no hard and fast timeline other than that it, which is provided by statute. We don't know at this point what those statutes require in the state.
But the idea that, if he's with them and is continuing to cooperatively and willingly go along with these authorities to find the bodies of these children, then there is no violation.
WHITFIELD: Well, isn't that part ...
JAMES CURTIS: What we're just talking about now ...
WHITFIELD: ... of the problem?
JAMES CURTIS: ... is speculation.
WHITFIELD: Isn't that part of the problem, though, James? I mean, he has the right to remain silent. But here he is spending six days apparently with these law enforcement agents or officers.
And likely he might feel a little bit of pressure, and that's what his attorney is concerned about. That he just might say ...
JAMES CURTIS: Well, we don't know ...
WHITFIELD: ... a little too much.
JAMES CURTIS: But, Fredricka, we don't know exactly what has happened with respect to those rights. All we know is the quote from the authorities that have him in their custody, saying that every request that he has put forth has been honored.
And he appears to be, as far as we know, content with those - the satisfaction of those requests.
WHITFIELD: Well, Lida, is there an opportunity that perhaps, if there is any questioning between law enforcement agents and Mr. Gehring, that perhaps a videotape might be used? Might this be able to be used in a trial if it comes to that?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely. They should certainly be videotaping every statement he makes.
And what I think is funny is, James, you know as well as I do that they could have charged him with the murders before they left California. They had enough evidence.
They had the guns. They had a shovel. They had people who had already witnessed him fighting with his children on July 4. They had the fact of the disappearance.
The reason that they didn't charge him with the murders was because they wanted to be able to cross examine him about them. And they know very well that by charging him only with the violation of the custody order, they were free to cross examine him all they wanted on the ride back about the murder.
So this is ...
JAMES CURTIS: And, Lida, there is nothing ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... prosecutors ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... wrong with that. We're talking about finding the bodies of two little children who had no control over the situation, who, as far as we know, were brutally murdered.
Indeed, they are within the letter of the law and the spirit of the law to try to fulfill their obligations to those victims.
WHITFIELD: But, James, if you were Mr. Gehring's attorney, might you be going nuts at this point that you have no contact, don't even know the whereabouts of your client six days after the fact?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely.
JAMES CURTIS: Sure. But let's see it -- but let's be clear. He does not have an attorney on the charge of murder because, as Lida pointed out, he has not been arraigned or charged - arraigned or charged with that ...
WHITFIELD: But he is in police ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... offense as yet.
WHITFIELD: ... custody.
JAMES CURTIS: Yes, certainly he is.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: But you see, this is exactly ...
JAMES CURTIS: And he can be, and probably has been, I would venture to guess, Mirandized and asked if he wanted his attorney, or if he wanted to go along with this search, and probably said yes.
But, certainly, I have no doubt that there's some sort of memorialization of whatever that conversation was.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Yes, ...
WHITFIELD: But, Lida, you certainly see the circumstances of coercion, just in the making, just by hearing James's argument.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely. James said it very well where he said, well, they can question him about the murder as long as they don't question him about the custody issue. And he's absolutely right.
But the problem here is that these police officers are being too clever by half. They're circumventing Sixth Amendment right to an attorney by not charging him with the murders. And how do you know that ... JAMES CURTIS: Not necessarily.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Oh, come on, James.
JAMES CURTIS: If they've advised him of his rights, ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: James, let me finish.
JAMES CURTIS: ... if they've advised him of his rights, ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: James, James ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... then he's waived them ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: No. Absolutely not. Because had they charged them, even if they would have advised him of his rights, they couldn't talk to him and you knew it.
The reason they didn't charge him was so that they could coerce him. But he is walking around with a bunch of cards from his California lawyers, which on the reverse side say, don't question me. I want to talk to a lawyer.
JAMES CURTIS: But the problem is ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: He gave those ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... that those lawyers, as you pointed out, do not represent him on the murder charge, because they have not been filed yet. This is entirely legitimate, and you should not fault law enforcement for working within the parameters of the law to try to solve a crime.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: They're not working within the parameters of the law. They're playing with it in order to get away with clever ...
JAMES CURTIS: Well, you know ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... police ...
WHITFIELD: Which then - which, then, Lida ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... Lida, one ...
WHITFIELD: ... I would imagine, if ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... person's view of playing with the law is another person's view, perhaps, of working within the law to the letter, and certainly the courts are probably going to have to sort this one out.
WHITFIELD: And, Lida, if there are -- if they don't, or they're unable to produce any kind of murder charges against Mr. Gehring, when this case does go to court on the charges that are pending against him right now, might his attorney be able to make a very substantial argument that, you know, their client or his client was, you know, his rights were violated, or perhaps he was manipulated, or potentially coerced or bullied during this long journey.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely. Whether he's charged or whether he isn't charged.
But assume he is charged with the murders. You know what happens in these sorts of cases. If he's charged with the murders and they violate his Sixth Amendment right to counsel or his Fifth Amendment Miranda rights for some reason, what usually happens in these cases is the prosecutor and the judge lose their only copy of the Constitution.
And the reason they lose it is because they're elected officials, and they don't want ...
JAMES CURTIS: Lida, you are ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... to let this guy ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... such a cynic ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... on a technicality.
JAMES CURTIS: ... come on.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: You've got ...
JAMES CURTIS: The only thing that's going to happen here ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... you've got it, James ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... if indeed ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... you've got to under ...
JAMES CURTIS: Go ahead, Lida, I'm sorry.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... I mean, you know -- thanks -- you know, James, that the reason that they are playing this game is because they know they can get away with it. And the reason they know they can get away with it is because this was probably a gruesome murder of two kids. And no prosecutor ...
JAMES CURTIS: Lida, that ...
(CROSS-TALK)
WHITFIELD: OK, and Lida, hold on a second. James, I'm going to let you have the last word.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Go ahead, James.
JAMES CURTIS: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
As it should be from the side of these poor victims, the idea that, as you put it, they can get away with it means that it's entirely, the steps that they are taking. And, if he's been advised and waived, that's really going to be the bottom line. If they've made a violation of his rights, that evidence will be thrown out, but they may have something else to go forward with.
WHITFIELD: All right. James Curtis of "COURT TV," and Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, civil rights attorney in Miami, thanks to both of you for joining us.
JAMES CURTIS: Thanks, Fredricka. It's been a pleasure.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Crosscountry Road Trip>
Aired July 20, 2003 - 18:13 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDERICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A father suspected of killing his two children may be back in New Hampshire as early as tomorrow after a cross-country road trip that has his lawyer outraged.
Sarah and Phillip Gehring vanished after leaving Concord with their dad, Manuel Gehring, July 4. Police believe the children were killed and left somewhere along Gehring's route west to California.
Police and FBI agents began driving him back from the West Coast on Tuesday. Well, they've spent six days on the road now with him, retracing his route, apparently.
His attorney says that's plenty of opportunity for coercion. So, is this cross-country drive legitimate? Or does it infringe on Gearing's rights?
Let's ask civil rights attorney Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, president of the Greater Miami American Civil Liberties Union, and former prosecutor James Curtis, an anchor at "COURT TV" in New York.
Good to see both of you.
JAMES CURTIS, COURT TV, NEW YORK: Thanks.
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi.
WHITFIELD: All right, Lida, ladies first, let me begin with you.
How long does it take generally for extradition? What is considered a little too egregious?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Well, this is obviously a little too egregious. They could have rented a camel and been there quicker.
And you've got to ask yourself why it is it's taking this long. And it's got to do with the fact that they're trying to coerce him into confessing, into telling them where the bodies are, and to giving up some sort of information that will help him -- to help them convict him.
WHITFIELD: Well, James, do you see it like this? Is this coercion at its best?
JAMES CURTIS: Absolutely not. I mean, come on. We don't know exactly what's going on or what these police officers as they continue, clearly, their investigation into the disappearance of these children, which is certainly the paramount concern of everyone involved in this investigation.
There is no hard and fast timeline other than that it, which is provided by statute. We don't know at this point what those statutes require in the state.
But the idea that, if he's with them and is continuing to cooperatively and willingly go along with these authorities to find the bodies of these children, then there is no violation.
WHITFIELD: Well, isn't that part ...
JAMES CURTIS: What we're just talking about now ...
WHITFIELD: ... of the problem?
JAMES CURTIS: ... is speculation.
WHITFIELD: Isn't that part of the problem, though, James? I mean, he has the right to remain silent. But here he is spending six days apparently with these law enforcement agents or officers.
And likely he might feel a little bit of pressure, and that's what his attorney is concerned about. That he just might say ...
JAMES CURTIS: Well, we don't know ...
WHITFIELD: ... a little too much.
JAMES CURTIS: But, Fredricka, we don't know exactly what has happened with respect to those rights. All we know is the quote from the authorities that have him in their custody, saying that every request that he has put forth has been honored.
And he appears to be, as far as we know, content with those - the satisfaction of those requests.
WHITFIELD: Well, Lida, is there an opportunity that perhaps, if there is any questioning between law enforcement agents and Mr. Gehring, that perhaps a videotape might be used? Might this be able to be used in a trial if it comes to that?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely. They should certainly be videotaping every statement he makes.
And what I think is funny is, James, you know as well as I do that they could have charged him with the murders before they left California. They had enough evidence.
They had the guns. They had a shovel. They had people who had already witnessed him fighting with his children on July 4. They had the fact of the disappearance.
The reason that they didn't charge him with the murders was because they wanted to be able to cross examine him about them. And they know very well that by charging him only with the violation of the custody order, they were free to cross examine him all they wanted on the ride back about the murder.
So this is ...
JAMES CURTIS: And, Lida, there is nothing ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... prosecutors ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... wrong with that. We're talking about finding the bodies of two little children who had no control over the situation, who, as far as we know, were brutally murdered.
Indeed, they are within the letter of the law and the spirit of the law to try to fulfill their obligations to those victims.
WHITFIELD: But, James, if you were Mr. Gehring's attorney, might you be going nuts at this point that you have no contact, don't even know the whereabouts of your client six days after the fact?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely.
JAMES CURTIS: Sure. But let's see it -- but let's be clear. He does not have an attorney on the charge of murder because, as Lida pointed out, he has not been arraigned or charged - arraigned or charged with that ...
WHITFIELD: But he is in police ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... offense as yet.
WHITFIELD: ... custody.
JAMES CURTIS: Yes, certainly he is.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: But you see, this is exactly ...
JAMES CURTIS: And he can be, and probably has been, I would venture to guess, Mirandized and asked if he wanted his attorney, or if he wanted to go along with this search, and probably said yes.
But, certainly, I have no doubt that there's some sort of memorialization of whatever that conversation was.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Yes, ...
WHITFIELD: But, Lida, you certainly see the circumstances of coercion, just in the making, just by hearing James's argument.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely. James said it very well where he said, well, they can question him about the murder as long as they don't question him about the custody issue. And he's absolutely right.
But the problem here is that these police officers are being too clever by half. They're circumventing Sixth Amendment right to an attorney by not charging him with the murders. And how do you know that ... JAMES CURTIS: Not necessarily.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Oh, come on, James.
JAMES CURTIS: If they've advised him of his rights, ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: James, let me finish.
JAMES CURTIS: ... if they've advised him of his rights, ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: James, James ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... then he's waived them ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: No. Absolutely not. Because had they charged them, even if they would have advised him of his rights, they couldn't talk to him and you knew it.
The reason they didn't charge him was so that they could coerce him. But he is walking around with a bunch of cards from his California lawyers, which on the reverse side say, don't question me. I want to talk to a lawyer.
JAMES CURTIS: But the problem is ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: He gave those ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... that those lawyers, as you pointed out, do not represent him on the murder charge, because they have not been filed yet. This is entirely legitimate, and you should not fault law enforcement for working within the parameters of the law to try to solve a crime.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: They're not working within the parameters of the law. They're playing with it in order to get away with clever ...
JAMES CURTIS: Well, you know ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... police ...
WHITFIELD: Which then - which, then, Lida ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... Lida, one ...
WHITFIELD: ... I would imagine, if ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... person's view of playing with the law is another person's view, perhaps, of working within the law to the letter, and certainly the courts are probably going to have to sort this one out.
WHITFIELD: And, Lida, if there are -- if they don't, or they're unable to produce any kind of murder charges against Mr. Gehring, when this case does go to court on the charges that are pending against him right now, might his attorney be able to make a very substantial argument that, you know, their client or his client was, you know, his rights were violated, or perhaps he was manipulated, or potentially coerced or bullied during this long journey.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Absolutely. Whether he's charged or whether he isn't charged.
But assume he is charged with the murders. You know what happens in these sorts of cases. If he's charged with the murders and they violate his Sixth Amendment right to counsel or his Fifth Amendment Miranda rights for some reason, what usually happens in these cases is the prosecutor and the judge lose their only copy of the Constitution.
And the reason they lose it is because they're elected officials, and they don't want ...
JAMES CURTIS: Lida, you are ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... to let this guy ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... such a cynic ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... on a technicality.
JAMES CURTIS: ... come on.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: You've got ...
JAMES CURTIS: The only thing that's going to happen here ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... you've got it, James ...
JAMES CURTIS: ... if indeed ...
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... you've got to under ...
JAMES CURTIS: Go ahead, Lida, I'm sorry.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: ... I mean, you know -- thanks -- you know, James, that the reason that they are playing this game is because they know they can get away with it. And the reason they know they can get away with it is because this was probably a gruesome murder of two kids. And no prosecutor ...
JAMES CURTIS: Lida, that ...
(CROSS-TALK)
WHITFIELD: OK, and Lida, hold on a second. James, I'm going to let you have the last word.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Go ahead, James.
JAMES CURTIS: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
As it should be from the side of these poor victims, the idea that, as you put it, they can get away with it means that it's entirely, the steps that they are taking. And, if he's been advised and waived, that's really going to be the bottom line. If they've made a violation of his rights, that evidence will be thrown out, but they may have something else to go forward with.
WHITFIELD: All right. James Curtis of "COURT TV," and Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, civil rights attorney in Miami, thanks to both of you for joining us.
JAMES CURTIS: Thanks, Fredricka. It's been a pleasure.
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Crosscountry Road Trip>
