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Is Mel Gibson's New Movie A Dangerous Anti-Semetic Catalyst?
Aired August 10, 2003 - 16:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WHITFIELD: Another religious debate is shaping up over a new Mel Gibson movie. It's called "The Passion," and it focuses on the last 12 hours of the life of Jesus Christ. Gibson says it's an authentic film about Christ's death. The Reverend Ted Huggert supports the film. He's with the National Association of Evangelicals in Colorado Springs, Colorado. But Rabbi Marvin Hier worries the depiction of Jews in the film may lead to anti-Semitic violence. He's with the Simon Wisenthal Center in Los Angeles. Good to see both of you gentlemen. Thanks for being with us.
HIER: Thank you.
HUGGERT: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Well, Mel Gibson has sunk $25 million of his own money into this movie that he says is very authentic. Reverend, you saw this movie. You were among those invited to see it. What were your impressions?
HUGGERT: I thought it was great. I thought it was authentic. I thought it communicated beautifully. And I think it'll be helpful to people, both believers and non-believers. And the evidence shows that Jesus movies actually help people become supportive of Israel and Jewish causes, not anti-Semitic. So I think the concerns about anti- Semitism are misplaced.
WHITFIELD: And Rabbi Hier, there were some Jewish commentators and/or religious leaders who were invited to the screening to see it. You were not among them. You have not seen it but what have you heard from your colleagues about the lasting impressions of this film?
HIER: Well, first, let me say that nine distinguished scholars, five of them Catholics and four Jews, from distinguished universities, all independently reviewed a copy of the script and concluded that it was dangerous and could cause increased anti-Semitism. Now, we could end the whole controversy right there if Mel Gibson would simply invite those nine scholars, the majority of them Catholic, specialists in the field of catholic-Jewish relations, to see the film. If they come out after watching the film and they say there's no problem, the whole controversy will go away. But Gibson has not allowed those nine specialists to see the film.
WHITFIELD: In fact, Reverend, even the publisher of a conservative Catholic magazine says that this is going to be a go-to film for all Christians of all denominations, but isn't this exactly the point, that perhaps it does not appeal to non-Christians, and should it be?
HUGGERT: Well, that is not the case. There are two things here. Number one, Campus Crusade for Christ produced the most popular Jesus film ever. It's been seen by 5 1/2 billion people. It's been translated in 800 languages. And it's been seen in 236 countries. There's never been a hint of anti-Semitism as a response -- as a result of that.
Number two, this is absurd, what the rabbi is promoting. I don't understand why he has such disregard for the first amendment. Is he suggesting that there should be scholars, his scholars that start reviewing everything that deals with Jewish history? Is he suggesting that Jewish leaders or scholars start reviewing books and magazines?
WHITFIELD: Well, Rabbi, let's let you respond to that.
HIER: First of all, he -- you know, it's very interesting. I didn't say Jewish scholars. The majority of the nine university professors were catholic scholars, specialists in the field. And the other thing...
HUGGERT: Yes, and...
HIER: And the other thing to remember, you say it's not going to cause anti-Semitism. We have received increased anti-Semitic literature charging that the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I'll be happy to read you that literature.
HUGGERT: Well, Rabbi, I have no doubt that anti-Semitism -- we're seeing the evidence of it, too, in Europe and in south America, and it seems to me as though all the evidence indicates that it's evangelical Christians that love this story the most that are standing with Jewish people all over the world.
And the evidence indicates, the evidence is perfectly clear that it was the bishops who decided not to make an official statement on this. It was individual bishops that made some statements. And it's evangelical Christians, that love this story, that stand with you and your folks. And it's absurd for you...
WHITFIELD: Reverend, I have to jump in, and Rabbi, if I can just make this point. Mel Gibson himself has said that much of the criticism is based on what he says were stolen early scripts of this movie...
HUGGERT: That's true.
WHITFIELD: Movie.
HUGGERT: That is true.
WHITFIELD: And that there were some revisions that have been made and that perhaps it's just time for people to kind of sit back for a moment and give folks a chance to review it when it does come out in a year. And Rabbi, are you saying at that point it may be a little too dangerous to do that and revisions should be made now? HIER: No, what I'm saying is very simple. That may be the case. I don't say that Mel Gibson is an anti-Semite. Indeed, he may be changing the script as we're talking. But the point is take those nine distinguished scholars, specialists in the field of Catholic- Jewish relations, and show them the film. Why not?
HUGGERT: And I would argue there is no compulsion to do that. The first amendment has served us well throughout the years. It's protected minorities throughout the years. Why in the world are they insisting on doing this?
Listen, there's a film coming out in Toronto in two months. It's a Jesus film. Nobody's expecting to review that. Nobody reviewed the Jesus film was distributed by Campus Crusade for Christ. This is absurd. It's ridiculous. It's missing the point.
HIER: He's showing the film to selected audiences, only to the people that he wants to see it. If you have nothing to fear -- if you have nothing to fear, show it to the nine scholars...
WHITFIELD: Rabbi, is it your feeling that on any kind of religious-based film that perhaps a prerequisite ought to be that these movies need to be screened thoroughly by various religious leaders to make sure nobody's offended?
HIER: Not at all. That would be preposterous.
HUGGERT: That is preposterous.
HIER: But if you're showing it already, why show it to the friendly crowd? Why show it to your friends? Why not show it to five Catholic scholars and four Jewish scholars who are distinguished university professors? What are you afraid of?
WHITFIELD: And Reverend, might an argument be made that perhaps all of this is helping to drum up quite a bit of prerelease publicity and this is in part of the strategy?
HUGGERT: Well, I don't think it's part of the strategy. I do think the controversy has given incredible coverage to the movie and lots of people want to see it. But I can answer this question. The reason Mel Gibson has been showing this film to some other people is in response to the criticism that's come out about it. He brought it here to Colorado Springs because we are a conservative group of lovers of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We love this story, and we would be very sensitive to either anti-Semitism in it or a misrepresentation of the scriptures.
He wanted us to see it, to see if we would complain about it, and we did not see any of those concerns.
HIER: So would the nine scholars.
HUGGERT: So he is showing it to audiences, well, he has no obligation to do that. And the principle of what you're asking for is a very dangerous thing in this nation. WHITFIELD: And Rabbi, perhaps he may have relinquished that sort of honor to various religious leaders given the fact he's mostly financing this himself.
HUGGERT: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
WHITFIELD: Let me ask the rabbi that.
HIER: I have no problem with that. My point is as follows -- if you want to put forth a legitimate argument to say the following, look, these nine scholars that are criticizing me, they saw an early script that infers if they would see the final script they would concur it's a wonderful film. So show them the film.
HUGGERT: Yeah, there's no obligation to do that. And it's ridiculous to even say -- you can find nine scholars that will complain about "Finding Nemo." You'll find nine scholars that would explain about little "Old Yeller."
HIER: Not the most distinguished scholars in the field of Catholic-Jewish relations.
HUGGERT: Artists need the freedom to do what they do, and the marketplace should make the decision. It's absurd for us to think that we need to start submitting the works of art in our nation to the intelligensia to decide what the public should see. That would jeopardize everything that we embrace...
WHITFIELD: Now, Rabbi...
HIER: First let me say -- let me answer you and say the following, that the concerns of those nine scholars that it would cause anti-semitisism, Jews have a right to be concerned. We're the ones that paid the bill in the last 20 centuries for the false charge of deicide causing millions of deaths. And the other...
WHITFIELD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to criticize this film when you haven't seen it yet, and perhaps...
HIER: No fault of mine. I'm eager to see it. If it's not shown to me, I can't possibly see it.
HUGGERT: But rabbi, you have to understand, evangelical Christians are the ones that are still supporting Israel and visiting Israel, even with bombs going off, and evangelical Christians are standing to complement and protect Jewish interests. We are not going to do anything, anything anywhere that would do anything that would be anti-Semitic.
And let me promise you this. If there is indeed an anti-Semitic response to this movie, and there's no evidence that there will be, but if there is, the National Association of Evangelicals and its 23 million members as Christians will stand strong to do everything we can worldwide to protect Jewish interests. WHITFIELD: All right, Reverend and Rabbi, I'll just let you have the last word. Is part of the argument here that those who have seen it, whether they like or don't like the message, most agreed this is a very violent film, it's very graphic, it's very bloody, and that is at the heart of this issue as well.
HIER: That's my fear, that when people leave the theater there are no Romans alive today. Julius Caesar is not here but Mrs. Bernstein lives next door.
WHITFIELD: Rabbi Martin Heir and Reverend Ted Hugger, thanks very much. We've run out of time. We appreciate both of you for a very spirited debate.
HIER: Well thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Catalyst?>
Aired August 10, 2003 - 16:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WHITFIELD: Another religious debate is shaping up over a new Mel Gibson movie. It's called "The Passion," and it focuses on the last 12 hours of the life of Jesus Christ. Gibson says it's an authentic film about Christ's death. The Reverend Ted Huggert supports the film. He's with the National Association of Evangelicals in Colorado Springs, Colorado. But Rabbi Marvin Hier worries the depiction of Jews in the film may lead to anti-Semitic violence. He's with the Simon Wisenthal Center in Los Angeles. Good to see both of you gentlemen. Thanks for being with us.
HIER: Thank you.
HUGGERT: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Well, Mel Gibson has sunk $25 million of his own money into this movie that he says is very authentic. Reverend, you saw this movie. You were among those invited to see it. What were your impressions?
HUGGERT: I thought it was great. I thought it was authentic. I thought it communicated beautifully. And I think it'll be helpful to people, both believers and non-believers. And the evidence shows that Jesus movies actually help people become supportive of Israel and Jewish causes, not anti-Semitic. So I think the concerns about anti- Semitism are misplaced.
WHITFIELD: And Rabbi Hier, there were some Jewish commentators and/or religious leaders who were invited to the screening to see it. You were not among them. You have not seen it but what have you heard from your colleagues about the lasting impressions of this film?
HIER: Well, first, let me say that nine distinguished scholars, five of them Catholics and four Jews, from distinguished universities, all independently reviewed a copy of the script and concluded that it was dangerous and could cause increased anti-Semitism. Now, we could end the whole controversy right there if Mel Gibson would simply invite those nine scholars, the majority of them Catholic, specialists in the field of catholic-Jewish relations, to see the film. If they come out after watching the film and they say there's no problem, the whole controversy will go away. But Gibson has not allowed those nine specialists to see the film.
WHITFIELD: In fact, Reverend, even the publisher of a conservative Catholic magazine says that this is going to be a go-to film for all Christians of all denominations, but isn't this exactly the point, that perhaps it does not appeal to non-Christians, and should it be?
HUGGERT: Well, that is not the case. There are two things here. Number one, Campus Crusade for Christ produced the most popular Jesus film ever. It's been seen by 5 1/2 billion people. It's been translated in 800 languages. And it's been seen in 236 countries. There's never been a hint of anti-Semitism as a response -- as a result of that.
Number two, this is absurd, what the rabbi is promoting. I don't understand why he has such disregard for the first amendment. Is he suggesting that there should be scholars, his scholars that start reviewing everything that deals with Jewish history? Is he suggesting that Jewish leaders or scholars start reviewing books and magazines?
WHITFIELD: Well, Rabbi, let's let you respond to that.
HIER: First of all, he -- you know, it's very interesting. I didn't say Jewish scholars. The majority of the nine university professors were catholic scholars, specialists in the field. And the other thing...
HUGGERT: Yes, and...
HIER: And the other thing to remember, you say it's not going to cause anti-Semitism. We have received increased anti-Semitic literature charging that the Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. I'll be happy to read you that literature.
HUGGERT: Well, Rabbi, I have no doubt that anti-Semitism -- we're seeing the evidence of it, too, in Europe and in south America, and it seems to me as though all the evidence indicates that it's evangelical Christians that love this story the most that are standing with Jewish people all over the world.
And the evidence indicates, the evidence is perfectly clear that it was the bishops who decided not to make an official statement on this. It was individual bishops that made some statements. And it's evangelical Christians, that love this story, that stand with you and your folks. And it's absurd for you...
WHITFIELD: Reverend, I have to jump in, and Rabbi, if I can just make this point. Mel Gibson himself has said that much of the criticism is based on what he says were stolen early scripts of this movie...
HUGGERT: That's true.
WHITFIELD: Movie.
HUGGERT: That is true.
WHITFIELD: And that there were some revisions that have been made and that perhaps it's just time for people to kind of sit back for a moment and give folks a chance to review it when it does come out in a year. And Rabbi, are you saying at that point it may be a little too dangerous to do that and revisions should be made now? HIER: No, what I'm saying is very simple. That may be the case. I don't say that Mel Gibson is an anti-Semite. Indeed, he may be changing the script as we're talking. But the point is take those nine distinguished scholars, specialists in the field of Catholic- Jewish relations, and show them the film. Why not?
HUGGERT: And I would argue there is no compulsion to do that. The first amendment has served us well throughout the years. It's protected minorities throughout the years. Why in the world are they insisting on doing this?
Listen, there's a film coming out in Toronto in two months. It's a Jesus film. Nobody's expecting to review that. Nobody reviewed the Jesus film was distributed by Campus Crusade for Christ. This is absurd. It's ridiculous. It's missing the point.
HIER: He's showing the film to selected audiences, only to the people that he wants to see it. If you have nothing to fear -- if you have nothing to fear, show it to the nine scholars...
WHITFIELD: Rabbi, is it your feeling that on any kind of religious-based film that perhaps a prerequisite ought to be that these movies need to be screened thoroughly by various religious leaders to make sure nobody's offended?
HIER: Not at all. That would be preposterous.
HUGGERT: That is preposterous.
HIER: But if you're showing it already, why show it to the friendly crowd? Why show it to your friends? Why not show it to five Catholic scholars and four Jewish scholars who are distinguished university professors? What are you afraid of?
WHITFIELD: And Reverend, might an argument be made that perhaps all of this is helping to drum up quite a bit of prerelease publicity and this is in part of the strategy?
HUGGERT: Well, I don't think it's part of the strategy. I do think the controversy has given incredible coverage to the movie and lots of people want to see it. But I can answer this question. The reason Mel Gibson has been showing this film to some other people is in response to the criticism that's come out about it. He brought it here to Colorado Springs because we are a conservative group of lovers of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We love this story, and we would be very sensitive to either anti-Semitism in it or a misrepresentation of the scriptures.
He wanted us to see it, to see if we would complain about it, and we did not see any of those concerns.
HIER: So would the nine scholars.
HUGGERT: So he is showing it to audiences, well, he has no obligation to do that. And the principle of what you're asking for is a very dangerous thing in this nation. WHITFIELD: And Rabbi, perhaps he may have relinquished that sort of honor to various religious leaders given the fact he's mostly financing this himself.
HUGGERT: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
WHITFIELD: Let me ask the rabbi that.
HIER: I have no problem with that. My point is as follows -- if you want to put forth a legitimate argument to say the following, look, these nine scholars that are criticizing me, they saw an early script that infers if they would see the final script they would concur it's a wonderful film. So show them the film.
HUGGERT: Yeah, there's no obligation to do that. And it's ridiculous to even say -- you can find nine scholars that will complain about "Finding Nemo." You'll find nine scholars that would explain about little "Old Yeller."
HIER: Not the most distinguished scholars in the field of Catholic-Jewish relations.
HUGGERT: Artists need the freedom to do what they do, and the marketplace should make the decision. It's absurd for us to think that we need to start submitting the works of art in our nation to the intelligensia to decide what the public should see. That would jeopardize everything that we embrace...
WHITFIELD: Now, Rabbi...
HIER: First let me say -- let me answer you and say the following, that the concerns of those nine scholars that it would cause anti-semitisism, Jews have a right to be concerned. We're the ones that paid the bill in the last 20 centuries for the false charge of deicide causing millions of deaths. And the other...
WHITFIELD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to criticize this film when you haven't seen it yet, and perhaps...
HIER: No fault of mine. I'm eager to see it. If it's not shown to me, I can't possibly see it.
HUGGERT: But rabbi, you have to understand, evangelical Christians are the ones that are still supporting Israel and visiting Israel, even with bombs going off, and evangelical Christians are standing to complement and protect Jewish interests. We are not going to do anything, anything anywhere that would do anything that would be anti-Semitic.
And let me promise you this. If there is indeed an anti-Semitic response to this movie, and there's no evidence that there will be, but if there is, the National Association of Evangelicals and its 23 million members as Christians will stand strong to do everything we can worldwide to protect Jewish interests. WHITFIELD: All right, Reverend and Rabbi, I'll just let you have the last word. Is part of the argument here that those who have seen it, whether they like or don't like the message, most agreed this is a very violent film, it's very graphic, it's very bloody, and that is at the heart of this issue as well.
HIER: That's my fear, that when people leave the theater there are no Romans alive today. Julius Caesar is not here but Mrs. Bernstein lives next door.
WHITFIELD: Rabbi Martin Heir and Reverend Ted Hugger, thanks very much. We've run out of time. We appreciate both of you for a very spirited debate.
HIER: Well thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Catalyst?>
