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CNN Live Sunday

Legal Briefs

Aired November 23, 2003 - 10:17   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Two musical masters are in legal quandaries. Pop icon Michael Jackson fighting child molestation charges after his arrest in California. And legendary record producer Phil Spector has entered a plea of not guilty in the murder of movie actress Lana Clarkson. How will their superstar status affect their cases?
We're going to discuss that issue right now and other cases in our legal roundtable. Our guests, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney Pamela Hayes, and CNN contributor and trial attorney Michael Smerconish. Thank you both for joining us this morning.

I'm going to change gears, though, a little bit, and not go with the celebrity cases and talk about the sniper trial. Life and death decision literally hangs in the balance here with John Allen Muhammad. How do you think this is going to go? And Pamela, why don't I start with you first.

PAMELA HAYES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: I think that the jurors have a very heavy decision, because this is the type of case that, if they can't find the death penalty for this particular case, a multiple shooting where clearly the jury has come to the conclusion that the defendant is involved, you know, the question then becomes, well, why give the death penalty? So I think that they're probably going to just go ahead and vote for the penalty, even though I don't think most people really think that death is the ultimate penalty. You can get more out of sending a person to jail for the rest of their life and making them think every day about what they have done.

SAVIDGE: Michael, let me bring in your thoughts on this. Do you think death penalty is almost a given here?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I wish that it were a given, because I happen to think that it's the appropriate punishment in a case like this. But Martin, it's hard to know what's going on in the minds of those jurors.

They sent out a question on Friday. They wanted to know, well, what happens if we can't reach an accord on the sentence in this case. And the judge would not -- and this was the proper call on the part of the judge -- would not answer that question. The reality happens to be that it would then become life in prison.

But the jury was very quick to articulate, we're not deadlocked, we just want to know the answer to that question. And then one of the jurors wanted to know if over the weekend they could do Internet research about the death penalty. And again, the judge correctly said no, you only have to rely on the evidence that came in the course of this trial. Those questions are not good news for the prosecution any way you look at it, in my view.

SAVIDGE: All right. Well, we've got to move on to the other cases, too. Let's -- Phil Spector here and the murder of Lana Clarkson. Pamela, the defense I think is arguing that this was self- defense. Do you think this is going to work?

HAYES: Well, it might. We saw how it worked in the Durst matter down in Texas. Unfortunately, what the prosecution has got to do is present their case and prove all the elements, and basically disprove a defense of self-defense. It might.

You know, we just have to wait and see what the facts of the case are. You know, after that Texas verdict, which is completely off the charts, nobody really know what a jury will do. And it really depends on what they present in court.

SAVIDGE: You know what, Pamela? Let me interrupt you, because -- my apologies. I made an error. Not self-defense. Her death was a suicide.

HAYES: A suicide.

SAVIDGE: Yes, thank you. Yes, Pamela, I'm sorry. It's my fault for leading you down the road.

HAYES: It's OK. You know, it's basically the same thing. You have to disprove that it wasn't a homicide in the -- to the extent that he did not do it. And if you are not able to do that, you're not going to get a verdict if you are prosecutor. So you know, we just have to wait and see what comes out.

SAVIDGE: Michael?

SMERCONISH: Phil Spector told "Esquire" magazine that it was a suicide. The "L.A. Times" at the end of the week published some police documents that indicated that immediately after the incident he said to the limo driver "I think I just killed somebody" and he was carrying the gun at the time.

Obviously, the police believe that it's the latter of those two theories that represent exactly what took place here. He has a great lawyer in Robert Shapiro. So I don't count him out.

SAVIDGE: No. OK. Now we move on to the next one, the last one, Michael Jackson. Been charged with child molestation.

What happens next in this particular case? I know that there's an arraignment I believe that's set for January 9. But where is Michael now? Do we have any idea?

HAYES: I don't know where Michael is. But my concern is that we don't know what the charges are with any specificity. This matter came out at a press conference, the likes of which I've never seen before. And we don't know what the allegations are except there are multiple counts of child molestation.

Because the arraignment is so far away from the actual date of arrest, it just allows us to continue to speculate, bring in things that have nothing to do with this particular case. And, you know, it's just a real shame that matters were not handled properly on the part of the district attorney's office.

This could have been -- this should have been done either days before. It shouldn't have been put off because of some type of Halloween celebration. Or it should have been done closer to when they would have the actual court hearing. And, you know, I just think it's very unfortunate.

SAVIDGE: Michael, how do you think it has been handled so far? I mean, if a complaint is brought, obviously they have to investigate. But some have claimed it was a bit too cavalier in the way...

SMERCONISH: No, I don't think so. No. Martin, I take what I saw in that press conference as a show of confidence on the part of Mr. Sneddon, the district attorney of that county.

And to answer your question, what's next? What's next is going to be more of a public relations battle. How about that spectacle that we all watched on CNN on Thursday night? Michael Jackson driving from the airport to a casino hotel in Las Vegas.

It took him two hours. Do you know why? Because he wanted that public adoration. And I'm convinced his lawyers wanted people to see that he has some support.

All those people who are running out to stick their hands in the car window just to touch, you know, Michael Jackson. It's the PR battle that we're going to have from now until January 9.

HAYES: But, you know...

SAVIDGE: I believe you're right...

HAYES: ... we could have dealt without it if they had just timed it a little better. Then you wouldn't have had all that type of thing happening.

SAVIDGE: All right. Pamela, I've got to end it there. Thank you very much, Michael Smerconish and Pamela Hayes. As always, our legal roundtable is interesting thanks to people out there who make things happen. We appreciate both of you being there.

HAYES: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired November 23, 2003 - 10:17   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Two musical masters are in legal quandaries. Pop icon Michael Jackson fighting child molestation charges after his arrest in California. And legendary record producer Phil Spector has entered a plea of not guilty in the murder of movie actress Lana Clarkson. How will their superstar status affect their cases?
We're going to discuss that issue right now and other cases in our legal roundtable. Our guests, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney Pamela Hayes, and CNN contributor and trial attorney Michael Smerconish. Thank you both for joining us this morning.

I'm going to change gears, though, a little bit, and not go with the celebrity cases and talk about the sniper trial. Life and death decision literally hangs in the balance here with John Allen Muhammad. How do you think this is going to go? And Pamela, why don't I start with you first.

PAMELA HAYES, FMR. PROSECUTOR: I think that the jurors have a very heavy decision, because this is the type of case that, if they can't find the death penalty for this particular case, a multiple shooting where clearly the jury has come to the conclusion that the defendant is involved, you know, the question then becomes, well, why give the death penalty? So I think that they're probably going to just go ahead and vote for the penalty, even though I don't think most people really think that death is the ultimate penalty. You can get more out of sending a person to jail for the rest of their life and making them think every day about what they have done.

SAVIDGE: Michael, let me bring in your thoughts on this. Do you think death penalty is almost a given here?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I wish that it were a given, because I happen to think that it's the appropriate punishment in a case like this. But Martin, it's hard to know what's going on in the minds of those jurors.

They sent out a question on Friday. They wanted to know, well, what happens if we can't reach an accord on the sentence in this case. And the judge would not -- and this was the proper call on the part of the judge -- would not answer that question. The reality happens to be that it would then become life in prison.

But the jury was very quick to articulate, we're not deadlocked, we just want to know the answer to that question. And then one of the jurors wanted to know if over the weekend they could do Internet research about the death penalty. And again, the judge correctly said no, you only have to rely on the evidence that came in the course of this trial. Those questions are not good news for the prosecution any way you look at it, in my view.

SAVIDGE: All right. Well, we've got to move on to the other cases, too. Let's -- Phil Spector here and the murder of Lana Clarkson. Pamela, the defense I think is arguing that this was self- defense. Do you think this is going to work?

HAYES: Well, it might. We saw how it worked in the Durst matter down in Texas. Unfortunately, what the prosecution has got to do is present their case and prove all the elements, and basically disprove a defense of self-defense. It might.

You know, we just have to wait and see what the facts of the case are. You know, after that Texas verdict, which is completely off the charts, nobody really know what a jury will do. And it really depends on what they present in court.

SAVIDGE: You know what, Pamela? Let me interrupt you, because -- my apologies. I made an error. Not self-defense. Her death was a suicide.

HAYES: A suicide.

SAVIDGE: Yes, thank you. Yes, Pamela, I'm sorry. It's my fault for leading you down the road.

HAYES: It's OK. You know, it's basically the same thing. You have to disprove that it wasn't a homicide in the -- to the extent that he did not do it. And if you are not able to do that, you're not going to get a verdict if you are prosecutor. So you know, we just have to wait and see what comes out.

SAVIDGE: Michael?

SMERCONISH: Phil Spector told "Esquire" magazine that it was a suicide. The "L.A. Times" at the end of the week published some police documents that indicated that immediately after the incident he said to the limo driver "I think I just killed somebody" and he was carrying the gun at the time.

Obviously, the police believe that it's the latter of those two theories that represent exactly what took place here. He has a great lawyer in Robert Shapiro. So I don't count him out.

SAVIDGE: No. OK. Now we move on to the next one, the last one, Michael Jackson. Been charged with child molestation.

What happens next in this particular case? I know that there's an arraignment I believe that's set for January 9. But where is Michael now? Do we have any idea?

HAYES: I don't know where Michael is. But my concern is that we don't know what the charges are with any specificity. This matter came out at a press conference, the likes of which I've never seen before. And we don't know what the allegations are except there are multiple counts of child molestation.

Because the arraignment is so far away from the actual date of arrest, it just allows us to continue to speculate, bring in things that have nothing to do with this particular case. And, you know, it's just a real shame that matters were not handled properly on the part of the district attorney's office.

This could have been -- this should have been done either days before. It shouldn't have been put off because of some type of Halloween celebration. Or it should have been done closer to when they would have the actual court hearing. And, you know, I just think it's very unfortunate.

SAVIDGE: Michael, how do you think it has been handled so far? I mean, if a complaint is brought, obviously they have to investigate. But some have claimed it was a bit too cavalier in the way...

SMERCONISH: No, I don't think so. No. Martin, I take what I saw in that press conference as a show of confidence on the part of Mr. Sneddon, the district attorney of that county.

And to answer your question, what's next? What's next is going to be more of a public relations battle. How about that spectacle that we all watched on CNN on Thursday night? Michael Jackson driving from the airport to a casino hotel in Las Vegas.

It took him two hours. Do you know why? Because he wanted that public adoration. And I'm convinced his lawyers wanted people to see that he has some support.

All those people who are running out to stick their hands in the car window just to touch, you know, Michael Jackson. It's the PR battle that we're going to have from now until January 9.

HAYES: But, you know...

SAVIDGE: I believe you're right...

HAYES: ... we could have dealt without it if they had just timed it a little better. Then you wouldn't have had all that type of thing happening.

SAVIDGE: All right. Pamela, I've got to end it there. Thank you very much, Michael Smerconish and Pamela Hayes. As always, our legal roundtable is interesting thanks to people out there who make things happen. We appreciate both of you being there.

HAYES: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com