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CNN Live Sunday
New Orleans Vs. D.C.; Iraq Foils Courthouse Attack Plot; Debate over Fence to Protect Against Illegal Immigration; Unusual Land Sighting in New Mexico; Puzzling Phenomenon in Atlantic Ocean
Aired December 04, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: From the CNN Center in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin. To our top story in just a moment, but first, these are the stories making news right now.
A snowy Sunday for parts of the Midwest. Several inches blanketed central and norther Illinois overnight. New York state and New England also got some snow today. And Washington could be next. Several inches are expected in the nation's capital tomorrow.
But tonight in Washington, it's all about the stars. Legends of the stage and screen are being honored at the Kennedy Center for lifetime achievement in arts. Robert Redford, Tina Turner and Tony Bennett are among the honorees. President Bush and the first lady are attending tonight's ceremonies.
More relief at the pump. Gas prices have dropped 11 cents in the past two weeks to an average of $2.14 for a gallon of regular self serve. But don't get too excited, experts predict prices will likely go up again because of crude oil costs and high consumer demand.
And right now, to our top story. The White House. A governor. And one of the deadliest hurricanes ever to hit the United States. Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco has released 100,000 emails and notes and memos that flowed in and out of her office before and after Hurricane Katrina hit. Some reveal a major communication breakdown between Blanco's office and the White House. So, as New Orleans got slammed by a monster storm and the people struggled to survive, what did the politicians say and not say to each other.
Right now, CNN's Gary Nurenberg has been sorting through these pages of documents and joins me now from Washington. Gary, what have you learned?
GARY NURENBERG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good evening, Carol. The documents themselves answer your question. They were sent to congressional committees investigating Katrina response and were gathered by Louisiana officials who also wrote a narrative praising their boss, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco and criticizing the federal government.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NURENBERG (voice-over): The day-by-day account posted on the governor's Web site quotes Blanco on Saturday, August 27th, predicting a severe storm and writing the president that, quote, "federal assistance will be necessary." By Monday, the 29th, after Katrina struck, Blanco was telling the president in a phone call, "We need your help. We need everything you've got."
After a helicopter tour on Tuesday the 30th, Blanco complains about federal response. The narrative says, "When the expected and promised federal resources had still not arrived on Wednesday, Blanco places an urgent morning call to the White House but can't reach President Bush or his chief of staff." Later that day, she does talk to the president and "stresses the situation is extremely grave.
By Friday, the frustration level rises. She writes the president that, quote, "Even if these initial requests had been fully honored, these assets would not be sufficient." She asks for firefighting support, military vehicles, generators, medical supplies and personnel and more.
Five days after one request to the White House for a shopping list of federal help, Blanco's staff gets a memo from a presidential aide saying the president never got the letter. Quote, "We found it on the governor's Web site but we need an original for our staff secretary to formally process the requests."
Sunday evening, Blanco's aides told CNN that the governor personally handed the letter to the president. The White House said it hasn't read all the documents and is not yet in a position to respond.
Blanco said in one memo, "I believe my biggest mistake was believing FEMA officials who told me that the necessary federal resources would be available in a timely fashion."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NURENBERG: There is some politics here. One of the gubernatorial aides who told CNN this evening that the president personally handed that letter to President Bush also wrote in a memo after Katrina that the Bush administration was, quote, "actively working to make us the scapegoats," end quote.
Months after the hurricane, avoiding the blame is for all sides, Carol, very much a priority.
LIN: So, Gary, the blame aside, is there any good that comes out of releasing these memos? Is there going to be any change or faster relief for the victims?
NURENBERG: Well, as you know, the memos are going to these congressional committees investigating the response to Katrina. Congress hopefully will take a look at the memos and the view of the people on the committee and come up with some kind of solutions, perhaps, a shortcut that officials can work through the next time around.
That, at least, is a goal of the congressional investigation.
LIN: The pressure is on. Gary, thank you. Well, FEMA is promoting its post-Katrina efforts on its very own television channel. FEMA calls the Recovery Channel a public service, but others are calling it propaganda. You be the judge. We're going to show you what the controversy is all about later in this hour.
Right now, chaos breaks out in Iraq just days before key elections. Iraq's former prime minister narrowly escaped what he calls an assassination attempt today. Ayad Allawi says he was chased away from the Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf by an angry mob wielding pistols and knives and swords. Iraqis also hurled their shoes at Allawi, a grave insult in the Arab culture.
Allawi and his convoy quickly took off, firing shots behind them. Allawi was in Najaf campaigning for the December parliamentary elections. Now, members of his campaign believe the protests may have been organized by a rival Shia militia group.
Iraqi authorities say they've foiled, also, another plot to attack the courthouse where Saddam Hussein's trial resumes hours from now. Security forces say they found positioning and long range mortars aimed at the Baghdad building. They say the attack was planned by a Sunni insurgent group calling itself the 1920 Revolution Brigades.
Hussein's trial is to go on as scheduled, though. CNN's Aneesh Raman has a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The case against Saddam Hussein. Many here see it as open and shut.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Iraqi people wish to see a short tribunal to a big turnaround, shorter turnaround for Saddam Hussein to be executed sooner than later.
RAMAN: But for the court trying Hussein, the legal process is getting more complicated by the day. And as they reconvene, there is little doubt another showdown will ensue between the Iraqi high tribunal and Hussein's defense team.
At the first session on October 19, defense lawyers asked for a three-month delay, citing insufficient access to evidence and a lack of training. They were granted 41 days, and Hussein got a chance to question the legitimacy of the court.
SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI PRESIDENT (through translator): I don't acknowledge neither the entity that authorized you, nor the aggression, because everything that's based on falsehood is falsehood.
RAMAN: At the second session last week, the defense asked again for a delay, citing the assassinations of two defense lawyers. They were granted one week, but the issue is far from resolved, likely to work its way back to court on Monday, with former U.S. attorney general, Ramsey Clark, officially part of the defense team, planning to make a statement centered on security. RAMSEY CLARK, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's dangerous for them every day. It's more dangerous every day that they appear in court. So we want that protection in place.
RAMAN: The government says it's offered the defense lawyers special security, but the lawyers have concerns, saying it's insufficient, creating an impasse and testing the patience of the Iraqi people.
"I do not think that Saddam Hussein will be executed, and also he will not be tried. This is just a show in front of the Iraqi people," says this man.
"This trial will be adjourned for many times," says this policeman. "There will be at least four or five trials and then he will be punished."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: That was CNN's Aneesh Raman. Now, the trial could be halted during elections December 15th. Iraqi officials have said holding the trial during the vote would strain Iraq's security resources.
Well, the plan, right here at home, to build a fence that's 2,000 miles long. Is this the way to secure the U.S./Mexican border? We're going to have a live debate.
Also, the Church of Scientology and what's behind these giant circles in the desert. And then, how FEMA tries to fix a tarnished reputation. Coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Good fences make good neighbors? Well, it's an old saying homeowners know well, but would a massive fence protect the United States from illegal immigrants or even terrorists? Our Chris Lawrence now on the newest salvo in the border security debate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Congressman Duncan Hunter wants to see a giant fence built along America's border with Mexico, 2,000 miles long. The California Republican says illegal immigrants are hurting the American way of life and endangering national security.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER, (R) CA: Now, today we have hundreds of thousands of people coming across a land border between the U.S. and Mexico. It's not an immigration problem anymore, it's a security problem.
LAWRENCE: Critics, including a leading Latino advocacy group, say a massive border fence would costs billions of dollars and not do much to keep illegal immigrants out. A small portion of the border already has some fencing and the results are debatable. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see that man climbing over the wall? I stood right at that spot one day doing a story on illegal crossings. All of the sudden I saw the wall rattle, a man appeared at the top of it, I said "Hola," he said "Hola," jumped down and walked into America. Congressman, how will your wall stop that? They've got a wall, it doesn't work.
HUNTER: If you have the impediment, that is the fence. You stop what we call the old banzai attacks, where thousands of people would come across at the same time.
LAWRENCE: Hunter's fence plan is new fuel for the already combustible debate over immigration. Some Americans are taking matters into their own hands, patrolling the Mexican borders themselves, armed with paper badges, walkie-talkies and video cameras.
Politicians are taking new initiative, too. The Democratic governors of New Mexico and Arizona declared states of emergency along their borders this summer. This is not necessarily a Democratic versus Republican debate, but it is likely to be a flashpoint in the coming campaigns for Congress and for president.
(on camera): It's no secret there are parts of the border where you can have one foot in Mexico and the other in the U.S. Anyone who can walk or crawl can get across here but some say unless the government attacks the underlying causes of illegal immigration, you can't build a fence big enough that someone, somewhere can't climb.
Chris Lawrence, CNN, on the U.S./Mexican border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: So the White House is closely monitoring the border debate. President Bush has been highly visible recently, voicing the need to protect U.S. borders. He made appearances in Arizona and Texas just last week. Now, Mr. Bush also used his weekly radio address yesterday to challenge Congress on immigration reform and to focus on increasing border security.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: In communities near our border, illegal immigration strains the resources of schools, hospitals and law enforcement and it involves smugglers and gangs that bring crime to our neighborhoods. Faced with this serious challenge, our government's responsibility is clear, we are going to protect our borders.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LIN: All right? But with what? So let's get into this debate with my guests. Representative Steve King of Iowa joins me from Washington. He cosponsored the border fence bill.
Douglas Massey is a professor at Princeton University in New Jersey. He has written a book on Mexican immigration and is against the fence proposal. Let's begin with you, Congressman King. You saw in the pictures a fence can only do so much. What do you think building a border fence is going to do?
REP. STEVE KING, (R) IA: Well, in the first place, it's ridiculous to argue that because someone can get over a fence, so we should not do it. It can be very effective and it'll channel people so that we can better use our border patrol. It's 2,000 miles long. We could put up an initial barrier of just a 10-foot-high chain link fence for about $680 million and then reinforce, put in a second fence. We should do that and build that in conjunction with our domestic security. There are a whole layer of things we need to do for border enforcement and domestic security to shut off this illegal immigration and turn the traffic back south.
LIN: How long would it take to build this fence?
KING: I don't know how long it would take. It depends on how fast we'd want to go after it. We could probably do this in a matter of months if we really did all hands on deck but I think it's something that needs to be planned well, it's something we need to have a national debate about and it's important that we tell our border patrol people that we're going send this support to them.
Another part is the symbolism. Fifty eight percent of Mexicans believe they have a right to go to the United States. We need to build a fence for the symbolism as well as the border protection, put a sign on the other side that says here's how you apply for citizenship, to come into the United States the legal way.
LIN: All right. Professor Massey, what do you think a fence would accomplish, if anything?
DOUGLAS MASSEY, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Well, I think it would be a complete and total waste of taxpayers' money. The border is not now and has never been out of control. The rate of migration between Mexico and the United States has been flat for the last 20 years and Mexico is peaceful country that poses no conceivable threat to our national security.
LIN: Well, who are these people, in our videotape, who are the people that we see in the surveillance video by border security? Who are the folks coming through?
MASSEY: Those are the people that used to pass through San Diego in a fairly anonymous fashion and now have been pushed out into open territory where you're filming them.
LIN: Well, we're trying to stop - never mind illegal immigration, we're trying to stop terrorism. There is a war on terror, professor.
MASSEY: Yes. But there has been no terrorist activity in Mexico, Mexico harbors no terrorists at all. Terror cells have been found in Canada, terrorists have entered from Canada, why aren't you building a fence with Canada?
LIN: Congressman?
KING: Well, the easier answer is this. In last fiscal year, the Border Patrol stopped 1.159 million illegals coming across our southern border. They only adjudicated 1,640 for deportation. The rest of them promised to go back. We know all of them didn't keep their promise.
The Border Patrol also tell us that they catch maybe one out of three or one out of four. So perhaps 4 million came across the border. Three million made it or more. That's a human haystack and we're arguing that some terrorists and some criminals, the needles that they are, can be found out of the human haystack.
LIN: But congressman, a lot of these people work good, honest jobs here in the United States. They may be here illegally but they're building homes and office buildings, they're taking care of children, they're mowing lawns and they're starting businesses and some of them are even paying taxes.
KING: Those are all the arguments that are made for people that don't want to support the rule of law. We cannot be a nation if we don't have the rule of law. We can't be ...
LIN: So what about a guest worker program, congressman?
KING: The first place, we need enforcement, first. We need to determine that - establish that we can protect our borders and do domestic enforcement. If we can accomplish that, then we can have a legitimate discussion on a temporary worker program, but I would say there never has been an example in history of a temporary worker program.
LIN: Professor?
MASSEY: Well, the problem with border enforcement is that it backfires. If you harden the border, the paradoxical effect is not that you deter people from coming in, you deter them from going home once they're here. So the rate of in migration from Mexico to the United States has hardly changed over the past 20 years, what has shifted dramatically is the rate at which people go home. And since we militarized the border starting in 1993, 1994, the rate of return migration to Mexico has plummeted.
So when you try to harden the border between two countries that are integrated economically, they're major trading partners, where there's 10 million Mexicans here, 1 million Americans living in Mexico. When you try to harden that border, that backfires on you.
LIN: So, professor, what's the solution?
MASSEY: Well, I think you need to bring the flows above board, legalize them and manage them in ways that benefit Mexico, benefit the United States and benefit American workers.
LIN: What do you think would happen if every illegal Mexican left the United States and went back to Mexico? What would be the impact on the United States?
MASSEY: Well, if you do that thought experiment on a one-day basis, on a 24 hour basis, you'd have chaos because they're now employed in a variety of industry and they're inserted deeply into the fabric of the American economy and American society. You'd also have a lot of human rights tragedies because families tend to be in very mixed status, so you'd have one parent who is legal, one parent who is illegal, two kids who are citizens, another kid who is awaiting his immigration hearing. And you separate these families out and it becomes a humanitarian tragedy.
Two to 3 million of these illegal migrants living in the United States now are people who entered the country as minors and are guilty of nothing other than obeying their parents and for them I think we need an immediate amnesty because they're blameless.
LIN: Congressman King, what's the status of this bill?
KING: Well, what we've done - I think there's a good chance. There's something that we have a real consensus on, I think. And that is some things that are very firm. One of them is to build a fence. I am glad Duncan Hunter has taken the lead on this. I've spoken out for it over the last several months. We need to do that. We need to eliminate, also, the birthright citizenship and we need to eliminate the jobs magnet. If we do those three things, then we can get this human traffic going south. If not, these 10 to 20 million illegals that we have in the country are going to continue to grow and continue to magnetize more people coming across the border.
And we can't sustain that and we're multiplying the human tragedy the professor spoke about.
LIN: Congressman, that is a high estimate. The estimate by a Federal Reserve analyst is 7 to 9 million.
KING: They've been talking about that for three years, though, and if 4 million come across the border every year and only a half a million or so go back, we've already added about 9 to 10 million in the time they talked about that number.
LIN: Again, a high figure compared to the research we've done at CNN. But I appreciate the time. Congressman, professor.
KING: Thank you.
MASSEY: Thank you.
LIN: We'll follow the debate.
Still ahead on CNN LIVE SUNDAY, scientology and these circles. Why these signposts in the desert are causing so much controversy. And FEMA takes to the airwaves but is this new government television channel solving problems or selling propaganda?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LIN: Hi. Let's take a look at the news across America. A 29- year-old Arkansas man heads to court tomorrow to face unlawful entry charges. Shawn Cox had Secret Service agents scrambling today. They say he climbed the White House fence and landed on the North Lawn and the president was home at the time, but apparently never in any danger.
And it's back to basics for a demolition crew in South Dakota. Yesterday we showed you efforts to topple a 200 foot tall concrete feed mill elevator, well, the largest structure in Sioux Falls. The implosion was only partially successful. The grain tower collapsed and it got wedged in its own basement. The contractor plans to finish the job using a crane to knock it down.
Gamblers ran for their lives during a shootout at Harrah's Tahoe casino in Nevada yesterday. Sheriff's deputies were checking out a report of a suspicious person when gunfire erupted. A man was killed and two deputies were wounded.
Now, the world is covered with ancient manmade markings that can only be seen from the air. Most famous are the giant figures in the deserts of Peru, but there's one site in New Mexico of much more recent vintage that's generating a lot of curiosity. CNN's Gary Tuchman got a bird's eye view of it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The land is rugged on the south end of the Rocky Mountain range, a panoramic view of northeastern New Mexico, under clear skies, which makes it easier to see an unusual sight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is it.
TUCHMAN: Two huge interlocking circles, markings on the desert soil that cannot be seen from the ground, but can be seen from the heavens.
MICHAEL PATTINSON, EX-SCIENTOLOGIST: I think they're not designed to be seen by human beings, but by alien beings.
TUCHMAN: Michael Pattinson says he was a member of the Church of Scientology for 23 years. Now he's a disgruntled ex-member, who says the circles are signposts for reincarnated Scientologists who come from outer space.
PATTINSON: They're markings to show the location of one of the vaults which Scientology has prepared to safeguard the technology of L. Ron Hubbard.
TUCHMAN: Hubbard, who died in 1986, was a science fiction writer who started the Church of Scientology. And, indeed, next to the circles and a private runway is a building with a vault built into the mountain. Current Scientologists do say archives are held in the vaults, just as other religions safeguard their sacred texts.
They say the vault is overseen by a Scientology corporation called the Church of Spiritual Technology.
(on camera): Church of Scientology officials denied CNN's request for a tour of the compound. They say the markings are simply a logo of the Church of Spiritual Technology and that this is a non- story. But from what we have experienced, church officials are extremely sensitive about this non-story.
(voice-over): A pilot we hired to fly us over the compound backed out, saying he got a call from the scientologists asking him not to go with us. Other pilots said they would not fly us because they didn't want to make the scientologists angry. But we did finally get a pilot.
(on camera): What do those circles look like to you from here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They look like a branding symbol a rancher might have put out there.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The closest town to the desert etchings is Las Vegas, New Mexico. The county sheriff there is one of few non- scientologists who have visited the compound. Chris Najar did so just last month, for the first time.
SHERIFF CHRIS NAJAR, LAS VEGAS CO., NEW MEXICO: Every time that there -- an incident that happens, that there's, say, for instance, Waco or the World Trade Center incident, every time something like this happens, there seems to be some rumblings that it's a training ground for militia or a terrorist training ground, that kind of thing. So, they have been inviting me out there, so we can go out there and try to dispel those rumors.
TUCHMAN (on camera) : Have you dispelled those rumors?
NAJAR: Well, we went out there. I didn't see anything of the sort.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The sheriff says the scientologists told him, this is where L. Ron Hubbard's writings, saved on titanium plates, will be preserved for thousands of years.
He says many people were there, lots of farm animals and a large cache of food supplies.
(on camera): Did it strike you as a place for survivalists?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Quite possibly, yes. I definitely want to go there if it hit the fan.
TUCHMAN: If it hits the fan?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The sheriff says the notion of spacecraft returning here was not discussed with him, but former members say that's part of scientology teachings.
PATTINSON: I know it sounds very, very bizarre, but this is where reality is stranger than fiction.
TUCHMAN: So, are the circles a landing pad for extraterrestrial vehicles? The church is not commenting to us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, it's not clear when the marking were made but the nearby vault was built back in the 1980s.
New rules of engagement in Iraq. Coming up, will new U.S. tactics help get troops out of Iraq sooner? Also ahead, weird weather. One study shows Europe facing a new ice age. But what's the impact right here in the United States? We're going to show you.
And don't switch the channel. FEMA's efforts to get out of the public relations nightmare it's having. And it's heading to the airwaves.
You're watching CNN LIVE SUNDAY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Welcome back. I'm Carol Lin and here's a quick look at what's happening right now in the news.
Documents released by Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco show confusion between Washington and Baton Rouge leading up to and after the hurricane of Katrina. Now, in a letter to President Bush sent one day before Katrina hit, Blanco warns state and local governments could not handle the response alone.
Angry Iraqis threw shoes at former interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi today. They chased him from the Imam Ali Mosque in the holy city of Najaf. Allawi is running for a seat in Iraq's parliament in the December 15th elections.
And boy wizard Harry Potter is still casting his spell on moviegoers. "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" topped the box office for the third weekend in a row. The film earned almost $20 million over that period.
And Conway, Arkansas is now home to the world's largest Christmas stocking. The "Guinness Book of World Records" says the giant sock measures almost 54 feet long and more than 26 feet wide. The students at the University of Central Arkansas made that stocking.
In the meantime, back to Iraq. It appears the United States could be changing its tactics in an attempt to quell the insurgency. A "TIME Magazine" investigation reveals Iraqi insurgents are upset over the extreme tactics used by foreign-born insurgents, namely al- Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al Zarqawi.
Now according to "TIME Magazine," the U.S. is trying to exploit that, contacting old Iraqi enemies to try to lure them away from al Zarqawi and some Sunni leaders tell "TIME" they would consider cutting a political deal with the United States to take a stand against al Zarqawi.
Now, is this the answer to restoring order in Iraq and getting U.S. troops out? Joining me now to talk about this, retired Army General James "Spider" Marks. General, good to have you.
BRIGADIER GENERAL JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, U.S. ARMY (RET): Hi, Carol.
LIN: All right. You take a look at this "Time Magazine" article and it seems to indicate a split between the insurgents led by al Zarqawi and the disaffected Sunnis. It seems that there was a disagreement over who should lead the insurgency, whether it should be an Iraqi or the Jordanian-born terrorist. What do you make of this?
MARKS: Well, Carol, that's nothing but great news and frankly, it's not surprising. We have been seeing for quite some time this division, if you will, between secular former Ba'athists and the Islamic jihadists, the foreign fighters that have been coming to Iraq and that element, the foreign fighters is led by AMZ, Abu Musab al Zarqawi. And as you said, a Jordanian.
The real good news is that the secular Ba'athists, the Sunnis primarily, want to be a part of the future of Iraq and what they have taken up is, as described in the article, both a bullet and the ballot approach to moving forward.
LIN: Right.
MARKS: And so what the U.S. has to do is take advantage of this split to our great advantage and we can do that and it's just very difficult, as you can well imagine.
But the thing to realize is that not all insurgents are the same and not all insurgents are painted the same. You know, a mistake we made many years ago is early in the years, as we established our relationship with the Soviet Union is we painted all form of communism the same and we found out that we were dead wrong on that.
LIN: All right. But when it comes to disaffected Sunnis or some of the insurgents who maybe want to be a part of the political process, I mean, is the United States negotiating with them and if so what are they negotiating for and isn't it the same as negotiating with terrorists?
MARKS: Well, no, it's not and first of all let's get rid of the verb, "negotiation," I don't think we're - we're not negotiating with anybody. What we're trying to do is to establish ways in which these disaffected Sunnis can be brought back into a process that makes sense. And let's be frank. If the Sunnis are left out, the chaos that can exist in Iraq will exist for quite some time. The U.S. has to reduce its footprint in Iraq and the Iraqis have got to take the lead moving forward, so the Sunnis, Carol, have got to be able to be a part of the process.
LIN: But let me ask you something about reports about Democratic Senator Jack Reed, as you know, he's a former army paratrooper and he went to Iraq and military briefers there told him is what commanders are striving for is something called minimal compliance, just enough stability there so that the country does not fall, but his premise is it's going to cost even more American lives, perhaps even more than the public is willing to tolerate.
MARKS: Well, I need to tell you, Senator Jack Reed, a West Point graduate, former soldier as you well know and a great American, he sums it up very, very well. The minimal compliance speaks to our ability to establish a metric that we can measure and the Iraqis can meet so that the U.S. primarily can back out of Iraq and take a less visible role, and that's the goal.
LIN: So not pull out completely?
MARKS: Oh no. And in fact, I need to tell you, the lifespan of insurgency is close to nine years if you just historically look at it. We're going to have a presence there, not in the numbers we have right now and certainly not in the disposition we have right now, but we're going to be there for quite some time, Carol.
LIN: All right. You're saying it now. Thank you very much, general. Thank you very much.
MARKS: Thanks, Carol.
LIN: All right. News now. In our "World Wrap" tonight.
Tens of thousands of demonstrators marched through the streets of Hong Kong today. They demanded that leaders there and in Beijing respond to calls for full democracy.
A new law takes effect in Britain tomorrow and it allows civil partnerships. The law gives gay and lesbian couples the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.
And scientists are taking note of a puzzling phenomenon occurring in the Atlantic Ocean. Now the cause is unclear right now but its effect could be quite dramatic. CNN meteorologist Rob Marciano explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST (voice-over): The surge of extreme weather the past couple of years has precipitated a blizzard of stormy movies in Hollywood. Like "The Day After Tomorrow" in which global warming abruptly makes New York freeze over, now a study says something like that could happen in Europe. Do scientists really think so?
HARRY BRYDEN, OCEANOGRAPHER: If we look at models, they would suggest the temperatures get colder by four to six degrees centigrade.
MARCIANO: That's about 10 degrees Fahrenheit. British researcher Harry Bryden's new study shows Atlantic Ocean currents that circulate like a giant conveyor belt are changing, slowing, in fact. (on camera): Here's how it works. Ocean currents move water around the globe. The Gulf Stream, for instance, near the U.S., takes warm salty water into the North Atlantic. As that salty water cools, it gets dense. And sinks. And moves back to the tropics in a cold, deep current. This is important because it keeps the ocean from getting either too warm or too cold in any one spot.
RICHARD ALLEY, GEOSCIENTIST: If the conveyor were to turn off fairly soon, next decades, let's say, then you would have the ability to grow sea ice on the North Atlantic and tend to make Europe's winters get much colder.
MARCIANO (voice-over): So, could global warming make Europe cooler?
BRYDEN: We are not relating it to global warming. We are observing the change. I think we are not sure what the cause is.
MARCIANO: Whatever the cause, scientists say the arctic icecap is thawing.
ALLEY: Melting of Greenland puts fresh water into the ocean, melting of small mountain glaciers, melting of permafrost all will tend to take water from the land and put it into the ocean.
MARCIANO: The bottom line is that run off of fresh water is slowing down the delivery of warm water to Europe and if the circulation comes to a halt, like in the movie, Europe could be in for a big chill. What does Bryden think about the movie?
BRYDEN: Dramatic, rapid climate change that occurred over 10 days is not realistic at all. So, whether that timescale of climate change could occur over 20 years I think is not outrageous.
MARCIANO: And if it does happen, remember the classic song? We'll get ready for a whole new tune. April in Paris would never be the same again. Rob Marciano, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, right here at home a big chill is sweeping across the East and the Midwest. Look at Syracuse, New York, along with much of the North is digging out right now from the first big snowfall of the season. Chicago also got a couple inches. Now, is more snow in store for tonight? Let's go to meteorologist Monica McNeal. What do you think, Monica?
MONICA MCNEAL, CNN METEOROLOGIST: I believe we won't see any more snow in Chicago, Carol, that's the good news for Chicago, but they've got other things to worry about. Right now the temperature is about 20 degrees and you're taking a live look right there at Michigan Avenue under clear skies and slight windy. Chicago's coldest start to December on record. Temperatures below freezing since November 30th, and you know what? You're not going to get out of the deep freeze for a couple of days.
Let's take a look at what you can expect. Over the next couple of days, temperatures will remain like in the teens.
In the meanwhile across the North and East you will certainly notice more snow for New York, for Boston, looks like your snow chances will be developing late tonight going into tomorrow, so be on the lookout for possibly a messy commute. The reason? Well, this area of low pressure will ride up the coast, bringing a chance of snow to Washington, New York and Boston and mainly messy across the North and East.
So we'll certainly keep an eye on that and be careful when you're traveling. Carol?
LIN: Yes. Wear your hat, get your gloves.
MCNEAL: Exactly.
LIN: Thanks, Monica.
MCNEAL: OK.
LIN: Coming up next on CNN LIVE SUNDAY, FEMA calls it the Recovery Channel, but what kind of message is it sending and why are hundreds flocking to see this Virgin Mary. Are these real tears of blood as some of the faithful claim? And why isn't the church investigating?
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LIN: Well, in case you missed it, let's check some of the highlights from the Sunday morning talk shows. National security adviser Stephen Hadley appeared on CNN's LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER and he reacted to reports that one of al Qaeda's top leaders, Abu Hamsa Rabiya (ph) was killed last week in Pakistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN HADLEY, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We've seen the reports out of Pakistan. We are looking at it. We are not in a position at this point to publicly declare that he has been killed. If he has been killed, it's a very good development. He was the chief operational planner for Al Qaida after the capture of Abu Faraj al- Libbi.
He was involved in planning assassination attempts against Musharraf. We believe he was involved in planning attacks against the United States. If he is indeed dead, it's a very good thing for Pakistan and for the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Well, on NBC's "Meet the Press," Republican Senator John McCain offered his definition of victory in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) AZ: Complete victory, at least in my view, is a flawed but functioning democracy in Iraq. I think it is hard to expect us to have a perfect democracy there, but one that the people of Iraq will support. Economic development - restoration of infrastructure and law and order and the Iraqi military and security personnel being able to take over most of the responsibilities for Iraqi security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: And on Fox News Sunday, Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer said the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq may now be doing more harm than good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARBARA BOXER, (D) CA: Eighty percent of the Iraqis want us gone. Forty-five percent of the Iraqis tell the pollsters they think it's OK to use force against our troops, so when you have a circumstance where the very presence of our troops is causing the problem, then you need to be a little more aggressive than the president is being in terms of when we will leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: And on ABC's "This Week," New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin vowed not to let the federal government forget about rebuilding his city devastated by Hurricane Katrina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR RAY NAGIN, NEW ORLEANS: You're telling me that it's more acceptable for Americans to spend money on foreign soil for foreign citizens than to spend money for New Orleans which is an American city. I don't get that and it blows me away every time I hear that.
If it wasn't for this city, the United States wouldn't be what it would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Well, Hurricane Katrina not only decimated much of the Gulf Coast, it also left in tatters the reputation of FEMA, the agency entrusted with federal disaster relief. Now enter a little TV production to goose those low public ratings and rantings. CNN's Tom Foreman explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Far from the cleanup, the debris and the angry public meetings.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need some answers.
FOREMAN: Seventy miles from Washington in the Maryland countryside, it's show time for FEMA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In times of crisis, the best help is often just a source of reliable information.
FOREMAN: This is the "Recovery Channel," produced by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, and airing around the clock via satellite and the Internet.
DIANNA GEE, RECOVERY CHANNEL ANCHOR: It could be the best day and the worst day. The day you finally get to go back to your storm- damaged home.
FOREMAN: FEMA conceived the channel years ago to spread important information after disasters. Following Katrina, it was on in shelters, a plain display about rebuilding, financial aid, help and more. But now, with FEMA accusing the mainstream media of failing to provide enough of that info, the "Recovery Channel" has undergone a makeover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay with us. Together, we can build a brighter future.
FOREMAN: And at the Annenberg School of Communication, Professor Joe Turow says it's turned into propaganda.
JOE TUROW, ANNENBERG SCHOOL OF COMMUNICATION: Most of the information was really not the specific kind of factual information one might think, but rather feature and fluff pieces that seemed designed to aggrandize FEMA, and actually the Bush administration, too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to thank FEMA for all they've done for us.
FOREMAN: Certainly, the channel conveys no public frustration with FEMA. When the channel was airing this ...
JAMILAH FRASER, RECOVERY CHANNEL ANCHOR: The massive effort to clean up Louisiana is still topping our coverage. And to speed up this process, our commander in chief steps in with some additional assistance.
FOREMAN: CNN was airing this ..
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's wrong with you, Uncle Sam? You drunk? Huh? What you doing with our tax money? Come on, you need to go to rehab, brother.
FOREMAN: Consider this "Focus On Education" report.
FRASER: But one New Orleans school refused to let the doors of education close on them. They just rolled in the wheels of knowledge.
FOREMAN: This segment, this week was about FEMA bringing trailers to a school where a tree destroyed several classrooms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of us without FEMA would not be able to be standing here today. FOREMAN: But this school is not in New Orleans. It's two hours north and there was no information about more than 100 devastated schools actually in the city, where by the way, almost 8,000 school employees have just been told they've officially lost their jobs.
FRASER: Good information for good decisions.
FOREMAN: Another concern. The FEMA logo appears often, but much of the language on the channel suggests it is independent of the very government agency that is running it.
FRASER: Today our lead story is FEMA's top priority: Housing. A two-week extension for those evacuees in hotels. That's what FEMA is saying today.
FOREMAN: Critics on Capitol Hill have repeatedly suggested the administration is misusing public funds for domestic propaganda. Senator Frank Lautenberg is one of them and he watched the channel at our request.
SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D), NEW JERSEY: The way this is being done, it's a fakery. And it shouldn't -- it should be identified as a government product.
FOREMAN: When we contacted FEMA, a spokesperson defended the channel, but after reviewing the questions CNN raised, sent this statement: "The agency, it says, "is taking immediate measures to ensure that all programming is unmistakably labeled as an official FEMA resource. And it's eliminating any editorial content."
Even as FEMA continues trying to help millions recover on and off TV. Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Believers are calling it a miracle. Skeptics say it could be a hoax. CNN's Rusty Dornin has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): There are the curious ones, but mostly, they are the faithful. Answers are not necessarily what these pilgrims seek. Sometimes it's enough just to see for themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I kind of think it's a miracle. And I told my class about it a little bit, and I think it's just fascinating.
DORNIN: The statue of the Virgin Mary at the Vietnamese Catholic Martyrs Church in Sacramento, California. At first glance you see only her cool white face. But a closer look at the left side reveals what resembled tears and some believe it's tears of blood.
They first appeared in early November, but were wiped away by the parish priest. Then parishioners here say they reappeared before mass on Sunday, November 20th.
Since then, hundreds have made the pilgrimage, even in the pouring rain, adding certainty for some.
We had a big rain and the tears are still there. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. Once again, it just gives us hope and faith. Who knows if it's a miracle?
DORNIN: A miracle or just some odd event or prank. Miracles do happen, says Father James Murphy. But in this case, the church is not planning to check.
(on-camera): The church is not going to investigate this?
FATHER JAMES MURPHY, SACRAMENTO ARCHDIOCESE: No.
DORNIN: Why?
MURPHY: Because the vast majority of them end up having eventually a natural explanation emerges and then it just wanes.
DORNIN: But wouldn't it be better to quickly decide that rather than to let people go on believing?
MURPHY: No, the church thinks a century is not tomorrow's news and the position always has been wait and see what happens.
DORNIN (voice over): But some Catholics question that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It happens so often as far as I know that they don't even bother investigating it anymore. But I believe they should. It pays to see whether it's a hoax or not.
DORNIN: People watch and wait and for some, there is the hope the miracle they've been waiting for has arrived.
Rusty Dornin, CNN, Sacramento, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, there's much more ahead on CNN. Coming up next, CNN 25 with a look at the men and women who defined the news in the past quarter century. We're going to show you what they're doing right now.
And at 9:00 Eastern, LARRY KING LIVE WEEKEND, a rare sit-down interview with one of the funniest men in comedy, Jerry Seinfeld.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Do you miss doing the show?
JERRY SEINFELD, COMEDIAN: Certain parts of it. I miss being on the stage with the gang and we would make up stuff sometimes and laugh and I miss writing with Larry and there's - we had a great feeling together. We really all thought - we enjoyed each other's humor. KING: What don't you miss?
SEINFELD: It was very difficult. It was - the workload was heavy.
KING: Why did that show work?
SEINFELD: I'll give you the same answer Gleason would always good when they asked him this question about "The Honeymooners." It's funny. Funny. And you know what people say? They're always surprised that the show, the subject matter, worked for broad America. And it wasn't the subjects. It was the funny. Funny ...
KING: Funny is funny.
SEINFELD: Funny translates to every language, every demographic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: At 10:00 Eastern, the safest cars on the road. Is one parked in your driveway? It's the first report of its kind. The results at 10:00. The day's headlines when I come back. I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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