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CNN Live Sunday

French and German Officials Meeting with Israeli Leaders; Israeli-Hezbollah Fighting in Day 12; Ariel Sharon's Condition Deteriorating

Aired July 23, 2006 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Fredricka Whitfield. After a meeting with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and others in the White House, just shy of Dr. Rice heading to the Middle East, we're listening now to Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal. Let's listen in to what he has to say about their meeting.

SAUD AL-FAISAL, SAUDI FOREIGN MINISTER: This is what we've agreed was the primary concern of everybody. And everybody who needs to help, who must help, should help. And we're not going to enter into detail about this and I'm not going to say anything or be pushed into saying anything to prejudice the secretary and the negotiations that she's going to undertake. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the president request your help? Did the president request Syrian help?

WHITFIELD: Very brief, but the Saudi foreign minister saying he's not going to reveal much about the conversations that have taken place involving him and White House officials, including that the U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. In about 30 minutes, it is expected that she will begin heading to the Middle East region, to perhaps help broker some talks of diplomacy as the crisis in the Middle East only escalates now.

Meantime, we've got more on this special coverage on the crisis in the Middle East. Over the next hour, we'll hear from our correspondents throughout the hour. And our international desk is monitoring broadcasts out of the area to cover all angles of this story. Here's what we know right now.

While rocket and missiles fly overhead, doctors in Israel say that that country's former prime minister Ariel Sharon has taken a turn for worst. He has been comatose since a stroke in January. And now his kidneys are shutting down.

Meanwhile, a new barrage of bombs and rockets today on both sides of the border. Two civilians were killed in Israel and one in Lebanon.

The Israeli military now says it will distribute relief supplies in Lebanon, but it's barred aid to southern area, where Hezbollah guerrillas are believed to be holed up. That's also where most of the civilians displaced by the fighting are located. Amid the growing -- or, amid growing doubts for a diplomatic solution, Israel says, the key sticking point remains Hezbollah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISAAC HERZOG, ISRAELI CABINET MEMBER: The Hezbollah is a member of the Lebanese parliament, is a member of the Lebanese government, is operating from Lebanon, from Beirut. It has established its own army on sovereign Lebanese soil against the undertakings of Lebanon to the United Nations. Syria is supporting it. Iran is supporting it. They are definitely responsible for the situation as well. But the focus is clearly right now is that it is a Lebanese crisis. If why was consider doing business with Lebanon after very promising growth of business in Lebanon, I would be very cautious today unless the situation changes dramatically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Lebanon meanwhile continues to distance itself from Hezbollah's actions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FOUAD SINIORA, LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER: They went across the line. The Lebanese government said it didn't know. It does not take a responsibility of this and it disavow from this. So it's very clear and it said very clear as well that the position of the government is to prevail over all of the Lebanese territory.

So clearly it has stated what it really wants and said as well it's ready to step in in order to renegotiate and end to this process, which is not only the handing over of the Israeli soldiers. And here we have to step a little bit and try and find out why it happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The word now on many lips, cease-fire. But no one thinks getting there will be easy. International officials, including U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice are heading to the region. Let's go over to Matthew Chance, who's in Jerusalem with more. What are the expectations there?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, over the past several days since the Israeli attacks and the conflicts with Hezbollah have been continuing, many people in the region have been waiting for the United States to come and bring its diplomatic pressure to bear on the situation. That finally now is going to happen with Condoleezza Rice, secretary of state, arriving in the region tomorrow. She'll be expected to meet, obviously, Israeli officials. She'll also be meeting some Palestinian officials as well, as well as some other players.

But the European diplomats, the countries from Europe, have already had their diplomats here. They've been here today trying to do whatever they can, whatever pressure they can bring to bear on Israel, which is frankly not very much, to try to work toward a cease- fire. What much of the international community wants is for Israel to stop its bombardments of southern Lebanon, which is causing a great deal of casualties. But they also want Hezbollah as well to stop tossing their rockets into Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (voice-over): Despite Israel's barrage of southern Lebanon, Hezbollah's missiles continue to wreak havoc. The targets are random, towns across northern Israel are under threat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far at Rambam Medical Center admitted eight patients, eight casualties, one with severe injuries, two middle injuries, two light injuries, and three stress response.

CHANCE: But with a massive Israeli tank force poised on the Lebanon border, international efforts to find a diplomatic solution are finally being stepped up. The French and German foreign ministers have been touring Israel's north and meeting Israeli officials to ask for restraint.

PHILIPPE DOUSTE-BLAZY, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): My question to Jerusalem and Beirut is the same. How do we reach as quickly as possible a cease-fire?

CHANCE: One answer may be the deployment of an international force in southern Lebanon, looking for a way to avoid a full-scale invasion. Israel says it might agree.

SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI VICE PREMIER: A major problem today is the missiles and the rockets. And the problem is the national force can control the onslaught of missiles and rockets and the use of them. Otherwise there is no mission.

CHANCE: There's been a U.N. force in southern Lebanon for 28 years, but it's had a limited mission. Both Israel and the U.S. see it as ineffective. Israeli officials have suggested NATO could be tapped to lead any future mission. It's robust and has experience in tough theaters like Afghanistan. NATO officials say there's been no discussion with them yet.

But as this crisis shows little sign of easing, its hoped the coming days may produce something, a possible way out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: Well, much will depend, of course, on what pressure Condoleezza Rice, what pressure the United States is willing to bring to bear on Israel. So far, Washington has been content to let its ally pound Hezbollah as much as possible in southern Lebanon, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And meantime Matthew, while this struggle goes on, an update now on the former prime minister, Ariel Sharon.

CHANCE: That's right, there has been news come from Ariel Sharon's hospital in Tel Aviv, as saying that the condition of the comatose former prime minister of Israel has deteriorated somewhat.

He's been in that coma since January, so for many, many months now. And so I think the initial shock of him being incapacitated has pretty much filtered through and many Israelis have worked through that. But at a time like this when Israel feels so vulnerable, at a time when it feels like it's at war, many people in Israel society, many of the newspapers are full of laments about the fact that Ariel Sharon is not at helm of this country.

Many people would want to see him running this country right now, because after all, he was their most legendary general in the eyes of many Israelis.

WHITFIELD: Matthew Chance, thanks so much from Jerusalem.

Well despite the diplomatic efforts, both Israel and Hezbollah remain on the attack. Today Israel bombed two coastal towns in southern Lebanon and areas around Beirut. Let's go live now to the Lebanese capital where we find CNN's Ben Wedeman. Ben?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Fredricka, the Israeli Air Force bombed Tyre and Sidon as well as Beirut this afternoon. Israeli jets hitting targets into the southern suburbs of this city. That's an area where Hezbollah has some of its offices, an area that has been severely bombed over the last 12 days. And also over the last 12 days, it's been noted at least here in Lebanon that Hezbollah is proving to Israel that it can indeed be a formidable foe.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Air raids, artillery bombardment, ground incursions: Hezbollah and the people of Lebanon have been under unrelentless Israeli bombardment for 12 days from the most powerful military machine in the Middle East.

(on camera): In June 1967, the Israeli military crushed the combined armed forces of Jordan, Syria and Egypt in just six days. But in twice that time, Israel has yet to put a perceptible dent in Hezbollah's ability to wage war, because this war is completely different.

(voice-over): Israel claims its offensive has dealt Hezbollah a crippling blow. Hezbollah denies it and its rockets continue crashing into northern Israel with unnerving regularity. Former U.N. peace keeper in Lebanon Timur Goksel knows Hezbollah well. He says the group's guerrilla tactics may leave Israel chasing phantoms in south Lebanon's rocky hills.

TIMUR GOKSEL, FORMER UNIFIL SPOKESPERSON: They don't keep their weapons in warehouses. They don't keep their weapons in storages that can be easily found and destroyed. They scatter them all over south Lebanon in the houses, in the caves, in the mountains. If you take one arms cache, then there is another one down the road some place.

WEDEMAN: Backed by Syria and Iran, Hezbollah waged a long punishing guerrilla campaign against Israeli forces until May of 2000, when Israel finally pulled out of southern Lebanon. Hezbollah's militia is fighting on home turf.

JAMIL MROUE, JOURNALIST: One the things, as I said, that just the Israelis just miss out on for some reason, these are locals. This is their home. This is their land. This is where they lost, friends, families, homes.

WEDEMAN: Injuring Israel's hole of neutralizing Hezbollah, ambitious at best.

AMAL SAAD-GHORAYEB, LEBANESE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: What makes it even harder for Israel to destroy Hezbollah is that it's a grassroots, popular, social movement and a legitimate political party. Each day this battle is prolonged, Hezbollah appears stronger and stronger, obviously.

WEDEMAN: And in the eyes of many Lebanese, unlikely to be broken by Israel's force of arms.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And Fredricka, the Lebanese are also waiting the arrival in the region of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She apparently has no official plans, however, to come to the Lebanese capital. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: But does that mean completely ruling out any talks? Vis-a-vis telephone or any other meeting point that she may have with Lebanese officials?

WEDEMAN: Not at all, actually. She'll be going to Italy on the 26th of July, for an international donors conference on Lebanon, where she is expected to meet with some Lebanese officials.

Also I know from past experience that by in large, U.S. officials coming to Lebanon don't normally publicize their visits for security reasons. So there's no reason at this point to completely rule out the possibility that the U.S. secretary of state will not be coming here -- Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: All right, good point. Thanks so much.

Well, though Lebanon is seeking an end to Israel's air assault, an adviser to the Lebanese leader says, everyone's aware there is no quick fix to the Hezbollah crisis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMAD CHATAH, SR. ADVISER TO LEBANESE PRIME MINISTER: It took Israel 12 days to reach where we are now. And there's no solution in sight. You cannot simply by using force to end the situation. We want to end it. We did not kidnap those two soldiers. We disavowed this action. We do not have as a government full control the south. This is not a secret.

The south of Lebanon has been under one armed group or another for the last 35 years. We're saying, this has got to change once and for all. It's been a little over a year that this government took office and began rebuilding the state.

This country was not a fully independent countries for many, many years. While we were beginning the process of asserting our statehood, our sovereignty and our control, we now have a war unleashed on Lebanon. A war that's devastating our civilian population and making it very, very difficult for the state to do what it's supposed to do.

We need to move quickly. We know that the world wants to help us. But it cannot help us simply by saying that we need a quick solution, a quick end to this and surrender of the soldiers. We do not have the soldiers. We need quick action. But the quick action cannot come the way it's happening now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Let's get a little bit more insight into the diplomatic efforts to resolve all of this. Edward Djerejian is the former U.S. ambassador to Syria and Israel. He's now director of the Baker Institute for Public Policy at Rice University. Good to see you, Ambassador Djerejian.

EDWARD DJEREJIAN, RICE UNIVERSITY: Good to see you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Well do you have high hopes for Dr. Rice's visit?

DJEREJIAN: Well Secretary Rice has obviously a very difficult mission. I think the aim is what could be called a cease-fire plus. And the plus is really going to be the diplomatic challenge, to cease- fire in order to get the fighting and the killing stopped and the arrangement for a cease-fire, the specific terms, I believe, I'm confident can be worked out. But it's the cease-fire, the plus that's important.

And what I mean by that, is the only way I could see a solution to the Israeli-Lebanese border is to enable and reinforce the democratically-elected government in Beirut. And that is going to take strong international collaboration, cooperation in order to get the Lebanese government to be able to deploy its army to the southern border. And if this takes as an interim step, an international force, so be it.

WHITFIELD: Well that's interesting you said that because just moments ago within the hour, the Saudi foreign minister said after a meeting at the White House that there is only one problem, quote, "Lebanon, and its inability to exercise sovereignty over its territory. That's primary concern of everyone, everyone who must help, should help."

So how do you get any movement on this front, even Lebanon? And you just heard the representative with the government there just moments ago say their hands are fairly tied when it comes to southern territory.

DJEREJIAN: Well that's exactly the point, Fredricka. There is this United Nations Security Council resolution 1559, which one of the outcomes was the withdrawal of the Syrian forces from Lebanon.

But one the other major terms of that resolution is the dismantlement of all of the militias, read Hezbollah. That has not happened, 1559 has international support. We have to stop talking the talk and walking the walk on that resolution and get it enforced.

And here America could play a great role of leading an international coalition. The talks with the Saudis are very important, the Egyptians, the Jordanians. We will have to deal with Syria and Iran on this because getting deployment of an international force to that southern border, getting the Lebanese government to be able to make these tough decisions, cannot be made without somehow getting the Syrians and Iranians on board in one way or other.

WHITFIELD: And when you say get them on board, are you starting with talks that would have to be opened up involving Syria and Iran? Because after all, how can you have diplomacy if you don't have any of these sides, whether they agree or not, talking?

DJEREJIAN: Absolutely. I come from the school of diplomacy that you negotiate conflict resolution and peace with your enemies and adversaries, not with your friends. How we do this, whether we do it indirectly or directly is a secondary matter. But they certainly have to be engaged because they have a direct responsibility over Hezbollah.

WHITFIELD: And the U.S. has made it clear whether it be through the White House, chief of staff this morning, Josh Bolten saying, the U.S. doesn't talk to Syria. If there is ever a time in which for the U.S. to broker some kind talks with Syria, if they are in a part of this equation, wouldn't it be now?

DJEREJIAN: I think so. You just cannot exclude Syria and Iran from the equation. We'd had a past history where we've had adversarial relationships with Syria. When I was ambassador to Syria in the early 90s, we had -- we conducted what I call muscular diplomacy. We got a lot of things done.

WHITFIELD: So what explains this apprehension or this reticence about talking?

DJEREJIAN: Well, Syria and Iran are obviously supporters of terrorism. They -- there is a troubled history between our country and these two countries. Nevertheless, nevertheless, no political solution is going to be hammered out conclusively and with sustainability unless those two actors are brought into the equation one way or another. And I think in so doing, it has to be a policy of carrots and sticks but it has to be done in a very muscular way. We've done it in the past, we can do it again.

WHITFIELD: Ambassador Edward Djerejian, director of Rice University's Baker Institute and former ambassador to Israel and Syria. Thank you so much for your insight.

DJEREJIAN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Next, boundaries in battle. Could Israel's campaign in Lebanon spill over into neighboring Syria?

And later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Mother and child reunion straight ahead on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Some have questioned the tactics used by Israel in the unfolding Middle East conflict. It has thousands of troops massed on the Lebanese border. And now many are wondering what's next? CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour reports from the Israeli side of the border.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Days of fierce Israeli air and tank bombardment and the Katyusha rockets are still falling on northern Israel. A small Israeli armored unit waiting by the border watches a firefighting plane trying to douse flames spreading along the hillside.

At a briefing near the front, the Israeli army shows reporters some the ammunition, anti-tank rockets and other weapons, it says its soldiers have captured after battling Hezbollah militants on the ground in southern Lebanon. They call those in and out missions.

(on camera): From the army chief on down, the Israeli military is now not talking about an invasion. All these tanks and troops, it says, are designed to reinforce the current, quote, "limited ground incursions under way." Separately, diplomatic sources tells CNN, that this activity could last another several weeks with potentially a cease-fire in place in about three weeks time. But one that's backed by a political solution that envisions the Lebanese army and a robust new international force taking over in southern Lebanon.

(voice-over): In the meantime, the Israeli army says it's trying to make a Hezbollah free zone, by hitting them hard on the ground. So with leaflets, loud speakers and flares, the Israelis are trying to get the Lebanese civilians to move out.

LT. COL. YISHAI EFRONI, ISRAEL ARMY: I urge them to leave as soon as possible. Why? Because Hezbollah is shooting and because they're shooting, we want to stop the shooting. We shoot back.

AMANPOUR: As his commanding general says, Israeli forces want to open fire freely. Christiane Amanpour, CNN, northern Israel.

(END VIDEOTAPE) WHITFIELD: Well, let's get more on the military strategy here now involving Hezbollah and Israel. Joining me is CNN military analyst, retired brigadier James "Spider" Marks.

And general, Syria is now saying, stay away from our border. Let's talk about the volatility of trying to contain this conflict inside the southern Lebanese border and Israel. How much a challenge is it going to be to make sure this violence does not bleed into say the Syrian border?

JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST (on phone): Well Fred, certainly Israel has no desire to stand the conflict into Syria. And when you look at the map, you realize how constricted and close all these distances really are.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

MARKS: A potential buffer zone from the Litani River south to Israel is no more than 20 miles. So you really run the risk of having a tactical engagement. And that is, the firing of a weapon, the firing of a tank, firing of a rocket, launching or getting off and ending up in Syria, that certainly is a problem only because of the proximity. So you could have a tactical event create some strategic problem.

WHITFIELD: And is that enough to stir the pot here and provoke Syria to say, wait a minute, whether it be by accident or not with a stray missile heading into our land, we can now get militarily involved too?

MARKS: No, I don't think so. Syria has lived with these volatile conditions between Hezbollah and the IDF, the Israeli Defense Force, for many, many years. So I think there would be a sense of calm. At least you would hope there would be a sense of calm that would -- that would prevail as a result of some accident like that.

But again, that's hypothetical. But it is a possibility. So the fact that Syria has raised its hand and said, we are looking for diplomatic solution is the right course of action and they need to be included as they will certainly because this isn't going to be achieved through a military solution exclusively.

Hezbollah will never be completely disarmed. It just won't happen. Primarily because of the optics that you have today, the fighting that you see today. Young Hezbollah fighters tomorrow are being recruited this afternoon. So, there must be a political solution and a diplomatic solution needs to take place.

WHITFIELD: There are other unique qualities about this conflict, aren't there? Namely that this is one so far that's primarily being fought with missiles and rockets. And now into a second week, this is unique.

MARKS: It is. Only because both sides -- first of all, Hezbollah does not have the capability to rush across the border in great strength and cause havoc on the ground in Israel. And the IDF has chosen to date not to go north, which they certainly could do at the drop of a hat. Israel is a country that is routinely in a state of war preparedness. They can fight tonight based on their history. They've chosen not to. They've chosen to respond to Hezbollah's actions through the use of air strikes and long-range artillery.

WHITFIELD: Quickly, general, before I let you go, that there is now talk a multinational force that could potentially be involved. Is that one in the same as NATO forces?

MARKS: It could include NATO. An international force is certainly not exclusive of NATO. NATO could participate, E.U. nations could participate, but I tell you, there would have to be a lot of effort put into what that formation looks like, because there's great skepticism about an international force being effective in that that part the world.

WHITFIELD: All right, retired brigadier general James "Spider" Marks. Thanks so much for your input.

And we'll check in on some of the Israeli and Lebanese cities under fire today, including the city of Haifa, where Hezbollah rockets landed and Tyre, where Israeli bombs exploded, again.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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