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CNN Live Sunday

Lebanese Perspective on Middle East Conflict; Spokesman for IDF Reacts to Haifa Attack

Aired August 06, 2006 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANAND NAIDOO, CNN ANCHOR: Haifa reels under the heaviest Hezbollah attack of the war as rockets fall once again on Israel's third largest city. While Israeli warplanes pound southern Beirut, the U.S. says it's hoping for a first U.N. resolution end to the violence in Lebanon in the next day or two.
It's 11:00 p.m. in Haifa in Beirut, 4:00 p.m. at the United Nations in New York. I'm Anand Naidoo. Welcome to world news and our continuing coverage of the crisis in the Middle East.

In the holy land, the region has witnessed some of the heaviest, deadliest exchanges of the conflict. Here are the latest developments. Jerusalem says more than 180 rockets have hit northern Israel. In the village of Kfar Giladi, at least 12 soldiers were killed in a rocket barrage. It was the greatest number of Israelis killed in a single incident since hostilities began 26 days ago.

Later, Haifa was hit by the heaviest barrage of rockets so far in that city. At least three people were killed, at least 100 were injured.

Israeli artillery unleashed a heavy bombardment of targets in southern Lebanon and in the outskirts of the city of Tyre. There was also another raid near Lebanon's border with Syria. Israeli reports note rising criticism of politicians, military commanders and the intelligence community and Israeli ground forces say they've encountered a much more formidable challenge than they anticipated.

Let's start now on the Israeli side of the border where more than 180 Hezbollah rockets hit northern Israel, the latest barrage striking an Arab neighborhood in Haifa, Israel's third largest city. Fionnuala Sweeney joins us in Haifa with more details.

FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much, indeed Anand. Yes indeed about three hours ago, some six rockets hit this city, Israel's third largest city and three people were killed as a result, all Arabs, we understand in the rockets hitting across the city, but hitting one area which is an Arab area in this city.

It's a mixed community of Jews and Arabs here and some 100 people have also been wounded, taken to hospital. For a time, some people were trapped underneath rubble when buildings collapsed, but they've now all been rescued and evacuated. This is the second time this today that rockets have hit this city or at least been targeted at this city. About an hour before the six rockets hit, some seven rockets we saw landing in open areas and a very clear indication that Hezbollah is still capable of targeting this major port city in the industrial north. Now you're looking at pictures of the immediate aftermath as people tried to rescue loved ones inside buildings, but we have to say that what we're hearing now from the IDF is that they have targeted a rocket launcher in Qana in southern Lebanon and they've taken it out and they believe it's from that rocket launcher that the rockets that hit Haifa earlier this evening came.

So an indication there that Hezbollah, though still capable of attacking cities as you mentioned, Anand, more than 180 rockets have fallen across northern Israel this day, and indeed 200 plus and an average of 200 fell the day before. Three people died yesterday. Three people died on Friday, but today a very high civilian and military toll for Israelis as 12 soldier reservists were kill up in Kfar Giladi, which is a kibbutz along the border with southern Lebanon and these were reservists who were supporting their colleagues just across the border in southern Lebanon.

Some of them were resting. Some of them were relaxing as they waited to go to the front line when these rockets hit and this was quite a substantial casualty toll for the Israel military and the Israeli population as a whole.

Overwhelming support still for Ehud Olmert, but it has to be said that and unless there are significant results achieved soon, there is a growing sense of anger and frustration among the people we talked to about the apparent inability of the Israeli military to stop these rockets being aimed at Israel, Anand.

NAIDOO: Thank you, Fionnuala Sweeney there in Haifa on the Israeli side of the border there.

Now a Hezbollah rocket attack earlier in the day killed 12 Israeli reserve soldiers who had just been called up to fight in Lebanon. That attack happened near Kfar Giladi. Our Matthew Chance was there and filed this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this has been the deadliest day in Israel since the beginning of the campaign with Hezbollah in Lebanon. A Katyusha rocket hitting a group of soldiers at their makeshift staging ground near a kibbutz, just across from the Lebanese border.

We're told by Israeli officials now that at least 12 of those soldiers, reservists in a parachute regiment, were killed as a result of that strike. A number of others were injured and ferried away by helicopter to hospitals to receive treatment. Again, the biggest strike, the deadliest strike of any Hezbollah rocket against the Israelis so far, and a very grim milestone in this conflict.

The big question though: What will be the consequences of this strike? Certainly, this frustration and this anger amongst the Israeli public, they'll be demanding some kind of military from their military. And there are great deal of concern around the region now as to what Israel's response will be in Lebanon to these latest killings.

Matthew Chance, CNN, on the Israeli-Lebanese border.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: All right. I'm Hala Gorani in Beirut as we continue to broadcast on this conflict in the Middle East from both sides of the border and all angles as well.

There are the military developments, of course, but there are the diplomatic developments. Now from the front lines to the diplomatic front, a security council draft resolution is calling for a full cessation of hostilities. It also lays the groundwork for another resolution to get an international stabilization force into southern Lebanon, it promotes measures to allow Lebanon's government to take control of areas now controlled by Hezbollah.

Diplomats say they anticipate vote on the resolution within days. The resolution makes no mention of an immediate Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon and that is a point of contention that some who have rejected this draft U.N. Security Council resolution have with this document. The Lebanese government, for instance has rejected it saying it does not call for that immediate withdrawal of Israeli troops. The Hezbollah cabinet ministers within the Lebanese cabinet have also rejected it.

The Arab League and there is a foreign minister's meeting of Arab nations tomorrow, Monday in Beirut, also expressing reservations. And the Israeli government, though has yet to officially comment on the draft U.N. resolution. The prime minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, has told his ministers not to discuss those details until the draft, which is still a draft has been finalized.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: This is just a draft, not yet a resolution. We shall wait for the full resolution before we shall react, but I want to remind you that it is implemented all of the United Nations resolutions concerning Lebanon, not that this helped very much, but we kept our respect toward the United Nations. We should await another couple of days for the first resolution because the first resolution must be followed by the second resolution and then the second resolution has to be implemented. So there is no sense to act ahead of time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, Shimon Peres there. Well as we reported earlier the Arab League foreign ministers in those countries that form the Arab League have expressed reservations regarding this draft U.N. Security Council resolution. One of them, the Syrian foreign minister, who made this statement earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALID MOALLEM, SYRIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: This draft resolution is a recipe for the continuation of the war because, unfortunately, it's not fair for Lebanon. Second, it is a recipe for possible separation of Lebanon which nobody, nobody, nobody has any interest to see this happening except Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, gloomy predictions there from the Syrian foreign minister, Walid Moallem on this day as the heaviest barrage of Hezbollah rockets hit the port city of Haifa. There were also Israeli military air strikes in Lebanon including two that we heard from here in the southern suburbs of the Lebanese capital. For more on that and the day's diplomatic developments, we are joined by our Beirut bureau chief Brent Sadler. Brent?

BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF: Thanks, Hala. Yes, we along with you saw those air strikes against the stronghold of Hezbollah in the southern suburbs of the Lebanese capital. We can show you pictures of the plumes of gray and white smoke that were clearly to be seen from the whole capital city itself.

This was unique in the sense that it was the first daylight raid that the Israelis had launched against the outskirts there. The first time that they've done that. It was in the afternoon -- this afternoon when many people were about on the streets and we were able to get into an area of the southern suburbs before, thankfully, the strikes got underway.

Our Jim Clancy was there with the crew and they were watching a fire engine moving about inside the southern suburbs there and tried to douse flames from a strike that had taken place the night on previous days.

Now it's difficult to find out really what's going on very often after these air strikes because many of these areas are still tightly- controlled by Hezbollah and you can't just simply walk in there and take pictures and find out precisely what's going on on the ground because as with all things related to Hezbollah's leadership and its military activities on the ground both in Beirut in the suburbs and in the south of Lebanon are kept under very, very close wraps indeed, Hala?

GORANI: And Brent, I was going ask you about that. We saw after that Hezbollah rocket attack on Haifa, immediate picture, live pictures. We saw rescue services. We don't get to see those types of pictures very often after an air strike here in Lebanon. Why is that?

SADLER: I'm sorry, Hala, could you repeat that?

GORANI: I'm saying that what we saw in Haifa today were immediate, live pictures of the aftermath of the rocket attack and oftentimes we don't get to see those immediate, live pictures in the aftermath of an Israeli air strike in some parts of the country. Why is that? How do you explain that? SADLER: Well, it's easy to understand, really, Hala. If there are air strikes, for example, as there were against infrastructural bridges north of the Lebanese capital it the Christian heartland, it's not under Hezbollah's direct influence and control. We can get to those areas. There's no attempt to stop us taking pictures there other than the safety aspects of being where there have been recent air strikes.

Likewise in some of the areas controlled by Amal, or certainly influenced by Amal, that's a rival political party to Hezbollah, under normal times although they are allied in policy with Hezbollah in this fight, we can get to those areas relatively easily. But in the real hard core areas, that I know very well and the main key security zone which was Hezbollah's political leadership really center of operations, these are the places that we can't get to and that's the same sort of story in itself.

We've asked repeatedly if we can find out to take pictures, information about direct access to Hezbollah casualties, where those casualties are being taken to, how they're being treated, what doctors are treating them, get to those facilities. We're not getting any of our media eyes on anything that's ground sensitive to Hezbollah. Hala?

GORANI: All right. Let's talk about the diplomatic angle of this story. We saw Amr Moussa, the secretary-general of the Arab League arrive in the Lebanese capital this day, just as two of those explosions which we saw pictures of there in the beginning of your report, Brent, went off.

SADLER: That's right. The air raids were going on Amr Moussa, the secretary-general of the Arab League -- they could see him amid some scenes of nervous tension there arriving at Beirut's international airport that's been open for relief flights and diplomatic missions like this.

Now Moussa is here in Beirut heading really -- or making the preparations for a very important meeting of Arab foreign ministers Monday. Already we're hearing from Amr Moussa there and others before they even get here expressing strong condemnation, Hala, of Israel's damage to Lebanese infrastructure and particularly the very heavy loss of life here in Lebanon, more than 700 so far.

And, really, Arab ministers are going to be focussing on that as well as particularly the Lebanese government stands supporting that and insisting that the Israeli troops in south Lebanon should be withdrawn and an immediate cease-fire, that the Lebanese government remains insistent upon.

In addition to that, as you say, we heard him a short time ago, Walid Moallem, the Syrian foreign minister here. First time the Syrians have been here at this level since the Syrians pulled out their troops from Lebanon after that Cedar Revolution, the Syrians pulled out April 26th, last year.

First time we've seen that level of official here and just one point that Walid Moallem, that minister from Syria said very pointedly that if Israel were to launch any ground or air operations against Syria, then Syria's leadership headed by President Bashar al-Assad has already given orders to the Syrian military establishment that there would be an immediate response to any Israeli attack. There will be no waiting. It would be an immediate response. That's a very important statement, Hala.

GORANI: All right, Brent Sadler, our Beirut bureau chief. Stay with us, you are with CNN's continuing coverage of this conflict in this part of the Middle East. We will be right back after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GORANI: All right. Let's get more reaction there to the latest developments in the Middle East on both sides of the border. We saw a bit earlier Hezbollah rockets hit the port city of Haifa, killing at least three and in the last few minutes according to wire reports, an Israeli air strike destroying launchers that hit Haifa.

All right. Let's go to Captain Guy Spigelman. He's a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces. Thanks for being with us. First, I'd like for you to confirm this information we're getting in that in Qana, I understand, the launchers that were used to hit Haifa were destroyed. Is that the case?

GUY SPIGELMAN, IDF SPOKESMAN: That is correct. You know, I think we're seeing today the reasons why Israel is forced to be in this action in the first place. The Hezbollah ruthless, terrorist organization using civilians as human shields, launching from the middle of a village like Qana, a ruthless and deadly attack killing at least three Israels in the city of Haifa. We're talking about a city where the Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel live in harmony and the Hezbollah are doing their best to try and destroy that. We won't let that happen.

GORANI: Let me ask you about the overall military strategy here by the IDF. This conflict entering its fourth week. We've been hearing from government officials as well as from the military that Hezbollah's infrastructure is being destroyed, yet day after day, more and more rockets are hitting northern Israel and other parts of the country. Is Israel's military strategy failing?

SPIGELMAN: Look, we have to understand two key points regarding the military strategy here. We have to understand two key points. One we're talking about Hezbollah, which is backed by Iran that has spent the last six years building up an arsenal of well over 10,000 missiles. We're not talking about a state or an army of a state. We are talking about a terrorist organization with an arsenal of well over 10,000 missiles.

It's going take time to get rid of all those missiles which they're pointing at the civilians of Israel. The other point is they are working in and around villages and suburbs and living rooms and garages of the people of Lebanon. They're using them as human shields. It's a very difficult operation and we know that we are succeeding in taking out one by one their ammunition bases, their communication lines, their resupply lines and we are getting to their infrastructure. It's going to take some more time. We have to remember, a lot of these launches...

GORANI: How long?

SPIGELMAN: ... They're on the back of trucks, pickup trucks. We're going to be going on until the political echelon tells us to go on, but until we remove the threat from the people of the north of Israel. We are making good progress. We need some more time or until there's some sort of diplomatic solution, but for that you'll have to ask the government.

GORANI: Let me ask you then how you would react to what Lebanese people have been telling me on this side of the border. They've been saying the Israeli military is basically targeting our infrastructure, that we've taken years to build back up after our civil war. Many Lebanese tell me this is collective punishment. Most our dead over 700 are civilians and they complain about that. They say that you're not going in a pinpointed way after the militants, that you're punishing everyone.

SPIGELMAN: The fact of the matter is the Hezbollah has been using the roads and bridges of Lebanon to import that arsenal of over 10,000 missiles to the south of Lebanon and other parts of the Lebanon which they're using to kill the citizens of Israel. They're using the villages and the suburbs of Lebanon as a war front. They fired more than 200 rockets from the village like Qana from other villages from inside the houses of people, inside the living rooms of people that and turned those place into a battlefront.

We didn't choose this. We didn't choose just after three weeks ago, this battle. The Hezbollah came into Israel, a sovereign territory, kidnapped two of our soldiers and launched the campaign which you've seen now, close to 3,000 rockets land over the civilians of Israel, 3,000 missiles threatening the daily lives of our people, really, the refugees from northern Israel come down toward the center of the country and I want to -- I think what I'll tell the people of Lebanon and the government of Lebanon is that all Israel wants and all the army is trying to do is to stop the terror coming from Lebanese territory.

GORANI: All right. Well, the question remains, though, did you expect within Israeli military ranks for this to go on for so long? You know, the messages and the signals we were getting at the beginning of this conflict, not just from the military, but also from government officials was this will be pinpoint, this will be lightning fast. This is the longest-ever conflict that you as the Israeli military has gotten itself involved in and taken casualties, 12 soldiers killed this day in northern Israel. Is there any sense that there will be a reversal or a reassessment of the strategy right now?

SPIGELMAN: As I said before, we are carrying on with our strategy to really move the Hezbollah away from the border. We know that it's going take time especially because they're using the civilians and the residents of Lebanon as human shields. This makes the battle that much more difficult and means it will take a longer time.

And as I said before, they have been backed by the Iranians and supplied with the arsenal of over 10,000 missiles. We are talking about a terrorist organization, not a state, 10,000 missiles. It takes some time to get rid of all of those and we're going methodically, reaching out -- I can give you an example of a village where we've been fighting over the last few days where we've uncovered hundreds of missiles, destroyed them, rocket launchers and our forces have been successful in village after village in removing the terror infrastructure and will continue to do so as long as the government tells us to keep on operating.

GORANI: Last question, Guy Spigelman, Captain Spigelman. Many of the roads leading into Syria have been destroyed. It is not possible to navigate on those particular routes. Are there roads that you believe Hezbollah is still funneling arms through into Lebanon?

SPIGELMAN: We know that they're trying to resupply the munitions and we're going do everything we can to stop that. For us, every terrorist target in Lebanon is a target for our defense forces, for our army and for our navy and for our air force. And we will take out any target that we see threatening the lives of Israeli citizens, including those roads that you mentioned. We did not choose to be in this conflict. We just want to see peace return to the northern border of Israel.

GORANI: All right, spokesman for the Israel defense forces, Captain Guy Spigelman. Thanks so much for your time.

All right. Now for an entirely different perspective. A little bit earlier I spoke with political analyst Amal Ghorayeb. She is a Hezbollah specialist and she explained Hezbollah's position in all this and quite specifically, I first asked her about why the group rejected the draft U.N. Security Council resolution that was agreed upon by the U.S. and France. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: Amal, let me first start by asking you about this draft resolution. It clearly calls for a zone in which there will be no Israeli soldiers and no armed forces apart from the Lebanese army and a U.N. force. It calls for that. Why is there disappointment from Hezbollah since there will be no presence, no Israeli presence if this resolution is adopted and implemented?

AMAL GHORAYEB, LEBANESE POLITICAL ANALYST: Well first of all, I mean, it's a matter of context. I mean, in the midst of the context, in which this article appears that you're referring to, it doesn't look very significant.

And more significantly I would think that it doesn't call for an Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon. So even if it does stipulate somewhere in that resolution that at one point or another there will no foreign forces, that could be well down the line.

GORANI: Let me ask you about the overall atmosphere here in Lebanon because we have seen demonstrations in support of Hezbollah. But I've also heard from other people who have told me, you know, Hezbollah is really actually endangering the Lebanese nation, the central Lebanese government, by exposing us to the military aggression. What do you respond to that?

GHORAYEB: Well I'd like to respond with statistics, not with just generalizations. I was involved in conducting a survey on the 24th and 25th of this month, before the Qana massacre. And 87 percent of Lebanese said they supported Hezbollah's resistance against Israel.

There was also another survey done by another think tank and it came out with similar results as well. So I think, yes, of course you're going find voices here and there which complain about Hezbollah's rocket attacks against Israel. But the majority of Lebanese are united over this response.

GORANI: Let me tell you, it is not just random voices here and there. I spoke to a high-level cabinet official who told me everyone knows Hezbollah is a subcontractor to Iran. This is basically a war between Israel and Iran, fought through Hezbollah.

GHORAYEB: That's an interesting perspective because in fact, first of all, Hezbollah is not an Iranian instrument. Yes, Hezbollah enjoys a very close relationship with Iran's clerical and political establishment.

GORANI: And military establishment.

GHORAYEB: And military -- OK.

GORANI: I mean, you get the arms from Iran.

GHORAYEB: Hezbollah has an organic relationship with Iran, much as Israel has an organic relationship with the United States. But at the same time, this does not reduce Hezbollah to a tool. In fact, the main act which was transformed this war into a regional war, you know, posing one strategic axis against another is the United States. It transformed what was essentially a local conflict between Lebanon and Israel into a wider regional war with its calls for a new Middle East.

GORANI: Well let's talk about within Lebanon's borders. Is it possible to have in the future of this country an armed militia in the southern part of this country and a weak central government? Is it possible for this country to survive under these conditions? What would it take for Hezbollah to lay down its arms?

GHORAYEB: Basically I think the question that we should pose is how do we resolve, as I said previously, how do we resolve the very causes which led to the existence of Hezbollah's armed wing? And I think that doesn't actually take all that much in fact.

All that Israel has to do is to adhere to the government's seven- point plan to withdraw from the Shebaa Farms, to end its violations of Lebanese sovereignty and what have you. And I think that in itself -- I'm not saying that will guarantee a disarmament of Hezbollah, because no one in fact in Lebanon is now calling for the implementation of 1559. But at least that would guarantee is that the Lebanese army would be deployed to the south, as would United Nations forces.

GORANI: Is Hezbollah seriously willing to be absorbed by the national state here in Lebanon and become just a political force? There is no trust, not only from Israel, but from elements within Lebanon who say that Hezbollah wants to keep its arms and wants to keep its authority, its political and military authority on a large portion of this country.

GHORAYEB: You know, I seriously doubt that if all of Lebanon's demands, I'm not going to say Hezbollah's demands -- if all of Lebanon's demands were met, if Israel no longer posed a threat to Lebanon, I really don't see how Hezbollah could retain any justification for retaining arms.

I think it would be fairly easy to say a formula could be worked out very easily with the Lebanese government which would somehow -- I'm not going to say integrate Hezbollah into the army necessarily, but which would appease both sides.

GORANI: All right. Amal, thanks very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: All right. That was Amal Ghorayeb. She's a political analyst explaining Hezbollah's take there. We're going to take a short break on CNN. When we come back, I'll be speaking to the senior adviser to the Lebanese prime minister. Stay with us

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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