Return to Transcripts main page
The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: Hearing on Abrego Garcia; White House has No Evidence It's Following Garcia's Case; Trump Threatens Harvard's Tax-Exempt Status; Trump Admin. Threatening First Amendment Rights; Boeing Might Halt Jet Deliveries to Chinese Airlines; NATO Chief Meets with Zelenskyy in Ukraine; U.S. Detains Another Palestinian Activist; Chinatown's Tariff Troubles. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired April 15, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And you're watching
"The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, the judge in the case of a man the U.S. mistakenly deported to El Salvador says there is no evidence the Trump administration
is complying with her order to facilitate his return. President Trump threatens Harvard's tax-exempt status as the school refuses to give into
his many demands. And the NATO secretary general delivers a message of solidarity in Ukraine after Sunday's devastating Russian attack in Sumy.
The Estonian foreign minister tells me the strike is a signal that Vladimir Putin does not want any kind of ceasefire.
The meaning of the word that means to make easier that is facilitate is causing division between a federal judge in Maryland and the Trump
administration. In a hearing which wrapped up just a short time ago, the judge rejected the government's argument that facilitating the return of a
man, the administration itself admits it mistakenly deported to El Salvador, only meant removing domestic obstacles.
The case involves Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia, who the government alleges is a member of the MS-13 gang. His family and attorneys dispute that claim.
By the way, that claim has not been tested in court. He came to the U.S. illegally and is now in a prison, a horrible one in El Salvador.
Judge Paula Xinis said, quote, "The administration's understanding of that word "facilitate" flies in the face of the plain meaning of the word." She
added, there was no evidence that, in fact, the government is complying with the order to do so.
Outside court, Abrego Garcia's wife had this message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER VASQUEZ SURA, WIFE OF KILMAR ARMANDO ABREGO GARCIA: I will not stop fighting until I see my husband alive. Kilmar, if you can hear me,
stay strong. God hasn't forgotten about you. Our childrens are asking when would you come home? And I pray for the day I tell them the time and date
that you returned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Paula Reid has been following that hearing. And, Paula, so, obviously, major difference between the judge and the administration, right
down to the meaning of a word. But what did the judge order after this hearing? What happens next?
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This was a very tense hearing. It's clear the judge is frustrated with the lack of information
she's getting from the Justice Department. So, she has ordered the next step here will be discovery, that is gathering evidence and producing it to
the court. She wants this to happen over the next two weeks. She told the lawyers, cancel your vacations, cancel your appointments. Get me this
information.
Now, lawyers for Mr. Abrego Garcia say there is no evidence the Justice Department has done anything to facilitate their client's return. That is
part of why they were pushing for this discovery process and the lawyer said, quote, "We have to give process to both sides, but we're going to
move. There will be no tolerance for gamesmanship or grandstanding." And she also made it clear that the transcripts and the YouTube link to
yesterday's Oval Office meeting, the DOJ put in its status report yesterday, that this does not constitute evidence.
Now, on the other side, Jim, the Justice Department, says that it disagrees with the judge's interpretation of the Supreme Court's order. They believe
they are doing what they were ordered to do by the Supreme Court, to merely facilitate his return, because, of course, the Supreme Court said when it
comes -- came to effectuating it, which is what this judge had also ordered, that she needed to clarify what that meant and be deferential to
the executive branch.
Now, we still don't have clarity on what she meant by effectuate, but she did say that because she's so frustrated, she might actually issue an order
expanding on what you have to do to facilitate someone's return to the U.S.
Now, at the end of this hearing, the Justice Department did signal they might appeal this order on discovery. So, no real clarity from today's
hearing, but we do have a better sense of what comes next, and that is either discovery or litigation over discovery.
[18:05:00]
SCIUTTO: And meanwhile, Garcia is still inside that prison. Paul Reid, thanks so much. Joining us now, CNN's Chief Supreme Court Analyst Joan
Biskupic. And I wonder, did the Supreme Court decision, though it was 9-0 and at the time interpreted as, oh, quite a clear statement from on high,
did it leave the door open to this? Did it have loopholes?
JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN CHIEF SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Oh, entirely. And it really wasn't 9-0 in terms of the actual wording that the majority had.
Three of the justices, the liberal justice split off on this. What the court said was that the administration had to facilitate, but not
necessarily effectuate. The Supreme Court actually jumped off of those terms that Judge Xinis had used, and created a loophole, at least some
vagueness that the Trump administration has just bulldozed right through saying, as Paula just mentioned, that it has adhered to this.
The Supreme Court order, the key part of it was just about a hundred words and it was opaque. You could -- there was enough uncertainty to what it was
saying last Thursday night that I think it gave this administration, an administration that is arguably acting in bad faith on some of these
issues, wiggle room there.
Now, did -- I would say at best it read it -- it read the order in the stingiest terms. And in some ways, the Supreme Court allowed this to
happen. When the Supreme Court ruled last Thursday night, it did not express any kind of outrage or concern about this Maryland man, unlike the
lower court judges who have handled this even, you know, a conservative judge, J. Harvie Wilkinson, on the Fourth Circuit that had, you know, tried
to enforce part of Judge Xinis' order had said, there's no question that this administration screwed up. And the Roberts Court, in its majority, did
not have any kind of sentiment like that. Jim.
SCIUTTO: And as you note in your piece, Wilkinson was a Reagan appointee.
BISKUPIC: That's right.
SCIUTTO: You write in your piece regarding this case that the White House has rendered the Supreme Court's order, in this case, completely hollow. I
wonder, is John Roberts, the chief justice, you've covered him for years, you've written books about him, you've interviewed him, embarrassed about
this at all?
BISKUPIC: I don't think so yet. But I do think that, right now, a lot of people are looking to the Supreme Court to provide a check on this
administration. To actually, you know, adhere to the separation of powers, the checks and balances, to keep the executive branch, you know, from
really going right so aggressively throughout all sorts of government and private institutions here.
The Congress, the legislative branches are obviously not put any kind of check on the administration. And I think in time it will become clear that
for the Supreme Court to be more relevant, it has to actually do more. I think that the chief doesn't want -- I think the chief is trying to avoid
some confrontation. You know, obviously.
SCIUTTO: He's already got a confrontation. Does it --
BISKUPIC: Well, I think, you know, what a lot of people fear is that we're going to have an outright defiance of some court order -- of the Supreme
Court order.
SCIUTTO: Right.
BISKUPIC: And, you know, he's sort of tiptoeing around things, acting in his usual calibrated way, at least on these kinds of cases, and that is
just no match for Donald Trump.
SCIUTTO: Now, this judge seems prepared to say the Trump administration is not abiding by the law here, presumably the DOJ appeals that. I mean, we
will see this before the Supreme Court again.?
BISKUPIC: Yes. And I think it could easily come back up to the Supreme Court in one form or another. And maybe then the justices will feel, a
majority, might feel that they need to speak more forcefully and with more clarity. I think they -- I'm guessing that some in the majority misjudged
what this administration was going to do. But certainly, the three liberals who peeled off and had said that they did not want the court to, at all,
disrupt the original order from Judge Xinis that said not only facilitate, but effectuate, make it happen. Make it happen.
SCIUTTO: You know what's so funny on that point, because so often when you have those liberal dissent, you'll hear from the conservatives saying,
they're just panicking over there on the left. You know, this will all be fine. But, you know, it seems like they were right on this.
BISKUPIC: Well, let me just say, they didn't -- they actually didn't even style their complaint as a dissent. They -- I think overall, all nine of
the justices wanted to make it look like they were not doing too much here, that they were all kind of getting along. But I think that not declaring
any kind of dissent probably did not help the situation either.
SCIUTTO: Joan Biskupic, thanks so much.
BISKUPIC: Thanks.
SCIUTTO: Moving on now to the showdown between President Trump and one of the world's top universities.
[18:10:00]
The president is now threatening to take away Harvard's tax-exempt status as an educational institution. His administration has already frozen more
than $2 billion in federal funding to Harvard, that after it refused to agree to Trump's demands to shut down its DEI programs and ban masks at
protests, among other things. The White House says the university should apologize. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president has been quite clear they must follow federal law. He also wants to see Harvard
apologize, and Harvard should apologize for the egregious anti-Semitism that took place on their college campus against Jewish American students.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The president has now stripped funding from several colleges and universities and is investigating others. Now, some university leaders are
beginning to speak out and stand up. The presidents of Stanford and Princeton both issued statements supporting Harvard. The White House
pitting several Trump administration officials against their own alma maters. RFK Jr. went to Harvard, while other members of the cabinet have
gone to Princeton and Stanford. President Trump received his degree from the University of Pennsylvania, which has had $170 million cut.
Joining me now is Larry Sabato, he's director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. Larry setting aside the clear hypocrisy of many
of those in the administration now cheering this, giving that they themselves went to some of these institutions or have their children there.
Simple question, is this good politics for this administration?
LARRY SABATO, CENTER FOR POLITICS DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: It's good politics with the Republican base, the MAGA base, they have been after
higher education or most of higher education for many, many years. It's always a popular target among populists in the Republican Party and
certainly the MAGA base. So, in that sense it's a good thing.
But, you know, the electorate's a lot broader than that. Forget about the Democrats, of course, they're going to be opposed to what Trump is doing. I
think this will prove very unpopular with independents too. You know, the Trump administration, Jim, is going after virtually every institution,
private, public, law firms, universities, as well as multiple agencies in the federal government.
They've got both houses of Congress and arguably, most of the time they have a majority on the Supreme Court. So, they think they have a license to
do all of this. I think they are wrong, and it's going to blow up in their faces before it's over.
SCIUTTO: I mean, the other piece here, right, is that funding to universities doesn't just go to universities for the heck of it, right?
When you speak of, for instance, NIH funding to universities, this is about researching diseases and at times coming up with cures to those diseases.
Have Democrats explained how this hits their voters or hits voters themselves? Have they come up with a political message other than this is a
bad thing?
SABATO: Of course not. They have proven to be inadequate to the task at hand in almost every category. I know it's tough when you don't control
anything, but they certainly could have done a better job and they need a new generation out there saying it. You know, bringing back President
Biden, who's going to be giving a speech today in Chicago, that's not the right message, and he's not the right messenger. But they have to point out
to people that, as you just said, a great deal of this money goes into researching diseases and proposing possible cures and testing out those
cures.
Hey, if they don't have the money to do that, you can make a good argument that hundreds of thousands or even millions of people will die prematurely
because of it. I don't think that's going to be very popular either.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Larry Sabato, University of Virginia, always good to have you. Thank you.
SABATO: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Andrew Manuel Crespo. He's a professor at Harvard Law School. Thanks so much for joining.
ANDREW MANUEL CRESPO, PROFESSOR, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: So, let's begin with a legal question, basic one. Does the threat to cut Harvard's funding violate the unconstitutional conditions doctrine,
trying to force in effect the university to give up its First Amendment rights?
CRESPO: Absolutely. This isn't even a close question. Academic freedom is protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.
You cannot, as the government, threaten a private institution, say that you're going to try to bankrupt it unless it starts teaching the way that
you want it to teach, unless it starts researching and writing the way that you want it to, unless it starts asking the questions you want and giving
the answers you want to hear, that is as textbook a violation of the First Amendment as you can get. It's unconstitutional, it's illegal, and it's
dangerous.
SCIUTTO: The -- I wonder, this is going to work its way through the courts. No question. Do you have confidence that the nation's highest
court, the Supreme Court, given in particular the deference it has shown to executive power on a whole host of issues, do you have confidence the
Supreme Court will eventually back you up?
[18:15:00]
CRESPO: I have confidence that the Constitution protects us and that our rights are strong here. Look, a lot of times the Supreme Court is showing
deference in areas, as you were discussing earlier in your show, that relate to international relations, immigration, you know, in the military.
This is not actually the executive's job. It is Congress's job to appropriate money. That is the Article 1 part of our Constitution.
Congress has the power of the purse. And for more than half a century, Congress has decided that it was a valuable and essential partnership
between the federal government and its research universities to fund cutting edge scientific research to help grow the types of investigations
and studies that lead to cures for diseases, new technologies. Congress appropriated that money.
Congress also passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which lays out a whole set of procedures that the government has to go through if it wants to try
to say that funding needs to be taken back because of allegations of discrimination.
If the Trump administration were actually serious about its allegations, it would be using the statute that is put in place to try to actually afford a
process for that. It's doing none of that. Instead, it's doing what the president always does, unilateral decision.
SCIUTTO: Haven't we already seen Congress's power of the purse as it were crumble, right? I mean, in part, by Congress seeding that. I mean, we've
seen this administration dissolve in a defund and dissolve agencies created by Acts of Congress, USAID among them. Is that a worrisome precedent when
it comes to university funding?
CRESPO: Absolutely worrisome. Look, this has been a move that we've seen repeatedly over the past few weeks and months. Congress passes laws,
Congress sets all sorts of policies, and then President Trump just says, I'm not going to follow them. And then, tries to just use the weight and
might of the federal government to bully and push institutions so that they try to bend to his will. And he goes after institutions that are the
essential bulwarks against authoritarian power across history and across the globe. He's attacking universities, he's attacking the courts, he's
attacking lawyers in the legal profession, and he's attacking the press.
Why those institutions? Because those are the critical institutions in making sure that the lifeblood of a free and open and constitutional
democracy continues being that type of society.
SCIUTTO: I wonder, and I have the same question as regards law firms, for instance who, of course, been attacked by this administration. Why haven't
universities banded together as it were? Not everyone, but several of them. And I know there've been amicus briefs filed and statements, for instance,
from Stanford supporting Harvard today. But I mean, you saw Columbia. Columbia give in, in effect. Why didn't universities get together, you
know, under the principle that there'd be strength in numbers, right, in terms of fighting this kind of pressure?
CRESPO: Fear. Look, this is a classic prisoner's dilemma, right? The president's strategy across not just universities, but you -- as you
mentioned, law firms, he tries to divide and conquer. He tries to pick out one institution and bring his full -- you know, full weight and might
against it, hoping that they'll crumble, and then that he can go to the next one, and that fear will breed more fear.
One of the reasons why our chapter of the American Association of University Professors filed our lawsuit last Friday is because the only way
that you can counteract fear is by showing actual moral leadership and courage with hopes that will show people you need to stand together.
Look, Harvard is the most famous and wealthiest university in the world. It has a moral obligation to try to make this stand for the entire sector of
higher education. But make no mistake, Harvard can't do this by itself. This is something that every university across the country needs to
recognize as an essential threat, not just to higher education, but to the whole country.
These universities are an important part of our society. They need to stand together. And that's why it's encouraging to now see that after our
lawsuit, the leadership of our own university decided and made its stand against the administration. And now, we're starting to hear from leaders of
other universities. That's the type of standing together that we need in order to withstand this.
SCIUTTO: Well, we do wish you luck. Andrew Manuel Crespo, professor at Harvard Law School, we do appreciate you joining as well.
CRESPO: Thank you so much for having me.
SCIUTTO: Still ahead, trade turbulence, to say the least. Boeing may be the latest victim in the growing trade war between China and the U.S. The
report that's sending shockwaves through the aerospace industry, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." Wall Street was hit by a new wave of negative tariff headlines on Tuesday. Stocks fell across the border, as you
could see there. This amid reports that aerospace giant Boeing has now become a new trade war target, word that trade negotiations between the
U.S. and the E.U. have made little progress so far.
The E.U. released a list of hundreds of U.S. products that could be hit by retaliatory tariffs if those negotiations fail. They include, interesting
mix, toilet paper, makeup, tobacco products, and clothing. All this as the White House continues to insist that tariff negotiations are on track and
that they're making progress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: As you've heard from numerous administration officials, there have been many talks with countries. We've had more than 15 deals, pieces
of paper put on the table, proposals that are actively being considered. And as we've said, consistently, more than 75 countries have reached out.
So, there's a lot of work to do. We very much understand that, but we do believe that we can announce some deals very soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The global aerospace industry is getting dragged into the U.S.- China trade war. Boeing shares fell on reports that China's now suspended new aircraft deliveries from Boeing. President Trump seemingly confirmed
that news writing, quote, "Interestingly, they just reneged on the big Boeing deal saying they will not take possession of fully committed to
aircraft." Funny how trade wars go.
Boeing considers China one of its biggest growth markets. The country's top three airlines had planned to take deliveries of more than 170 of its jets
over the next three years.
Richard Quest joins me now. First on this Boeing news, I mean, there was a time when China was one of Boeing's most promising markets. It's an obvious
place for China to try to hit back at the U.S. I mean, is that market done for Boeing now?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE AND CNN ANCHOR, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: No, it's not. Because the -- there's only -- in terms of
existing manufacturers, there's only Boeing and Airbus. Yes, Comac is coming on with its own aircraft, but it's only talking about a small narrow
bodied. In terms of the big stuff, the wide bodied, it's still Boeing and Airbus.
But obviously, the Chinese government is making life as difficult as possible. If you look at the numbers, Jim, of planes that the big three
airlines in China, Boeing -- China Southern, China Eastern, and Air China, if you look at those numbers, you can see how many they've got on order at
the moment. And you factor in those deliveries.
It's -- what's going to be interesting is what Boeing does with the planes to an extent they can't just send them to somebody else. They've been
bought and paid for, they're committed to, it's a relatively short-term problem. So, it's China just ratcheting up, as it did with rare earth
minerals, the pressure on the United States, and it's proof positive that China actually has far more leverage than the U.S. has ever let on. The
U.S. knew all this, of course.
[18:25:00]
SCIUTTO: Yes.
QUEST: But they've never really let on.
SCIUTTO: I mean, might other countries facing Trump's tariffs also target Boeing? I mean, last time I checked --
QUEST: No.
SCIUTTO: -- Europe has a pretty decent aircraft manufacturer as well.
QUEST: No, no, no. That would be -- I think that -- in theory, yes, you're completely right, but that's nuclear. And there's nobody that would have
that large number of aircraft across an entire fleet and sub fleet that you would be able to push that much pressure.
And bearing in mind, there is an element of tit for tat. I can give you another bit of tit for tat on this. Ed Bastian, who's the CEO of Delta, has
already said he is not paying a tariff when Delta takes delivery of the A320s and 30s and 50s that he has bought from Airbus because -- so, you
know, nobody knows what's going to happen here. We are in such unchartered territory. Nobody knows.
SCIUTTO: So, let me ask you this, because United Airlines is out with a warning about domestic demand softening.
QUEST: Yes. Yes. So, United's one of the first ones. We've had a warning today. They've actually done what they've called bimodal guidance for their
latest results. They've given one set of numbers if growth continues, and they've got another set of numbers, which they've said if there is a
recession.
So, companies are now, instead of some are not giving any guidance at all, some are giving bimodal, like United. And even NVIDIA tonight has warned
that it expects to take a billion-dollar charge against earnings because it won't be able to deliver as many chips to China.
So, this is how -- Jim, this is how your recession happens. This is exactly what happens. It's the swirling round, United here, NVIDIA there, Delta
over here, Boeing over here. Bit by bit the pieces of the jigsaw get put on the table and the final result is a recession.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And it's got momentum, right? I mean, these things can't get --
QUEST: Oh, completely.
SCIUTTO: It's like that, you know, theoretical snowball rolling down the hill.
QUEST: No, no, it's worse.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
QUEST: Worse, Jim. It's got growing momentum. Because these tariffs are now in force 10, 20, whatever it said, and it's rolling faster and faster,
and it's going to pick up speed as the ever defeating downward spiral continues.
SCIUTTO: Thank you, Richard Quest, for speaking the truth.
QUEST: Sorry, Jim. I'm sorry.
SCIUTTO: And spoiling my evening.
QUEST: I'm sorry.
SCIUTTO: No, no. I know we're going to keep talking about it. Thanks so much. Coming up next, U.S. immigration officers detained another
Palestinian activist. This man taken into custody while trying to finalize his American citizenship. Details when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. And here are more international headlines we are watching today. President Trump is
suggesting that Harvard University should lose its tax-exempt status as an educational institution. The latest salvo in a faceoff between the White
House and the school and other universities in this country. The Trump administration is freezing $2.2 billion in federal funding, this after
Harvard refused to meet the administration's demand to a number of policy changes.
A Hamas official tells CNN, the group is studying an Israeli proposal for a 45-day ceasefire in Gaza. Under that proposal, the Israeli-American Edan
Alexander would be released on the first day of the truce as a special gesture to the U.S. Hamas' military wing, however, says they have lost
contact with the people who are holding Alexander. Under the Israeli plan, nine other hostages would also be freed in exchange for the release of
hundreds of Palestinian prisoners and detainees.
Jury selection is now underway in New York for the retrial of Harvey Weinstein. A jury found that disgraced movie producer guilty of rape and
sexual assault five years ago. That conviction was overturned last year. Weinstein is being retried on charges from the original case. He also faces
a new charge of sexual assault not included in the first trial. Weinstein denies all allegations against him.
The NATO secretary general visited the Ukrainian port of Odessa today with a message of solidarity in the wake of Sunday's devastating Russian attack
on the northeastern City of Sumy. That attack killed at least 35 people, the deadliest attack of the conflict so far this year. Today, flowers
continue to be laid at memorials there.
Ukrainian media report that Mark Rutte and Volodymyr Zelenskyy spoke about the need for more weapons and security guarantees should a ceasefire deal
be reached between Russia and Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: These discussions are not easy, not least in the wake of this horrific violence, but we all support President
Trump's push for peace, other allies, including through efforts led by France and the United Kingdom are really willing and able to shoulder more
responsibility in helping to secure peace when the time comes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The Kremlin's continuing delay in accepting Washington ceasefire proposals, raising doubts, understandable ones, about whether Vladimir
Putin really wants to stop the war considering Russia's progress on some parts of the battlefield.
A little earlier, I asked the Estonian foreign minister, Margus Tsahkna, if the attack on Sumy showed, demonstrated that Russia is not interested in
peace talks.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARGUS TSAHKNA, ESTONIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: This is exactly how it looks like. And this is very brutal. And it is happening actually every night
that Putin and Russia is attacking the civilian people, innocent people, but this case was just very remarkable because innocent children were just
killed. And be honest, it was made this attack during the time when Ukraine and also U.S. proposed a ceasefire for 30 days. And I think that it's a
clear message that Putin doesn't want to have any kind of ceasefire and maybe even not a peace in Ukraine, but he's just asking more and using this
opportunity to show this.
SCIUTTO: President Trump, other members of the Trump administration have raised the possibility over the last several weeks of increasing U.S. and
Western sanctions on Russia if it doesn't come to the negotiating table. I wonder, given the time, the wait for Russia to come to the table, is it now
past time for the U.S. a and Europe to impose further sanctions on Russia?
[18:35:00]
TSAHKNA: Well, actually this was a position we were clear very, I don't know, a couple of weeks or even a couple of months ago, that Putin
understands only the strength. But President Trump gave the opportunity as well for Putin to show whether he really wants to have a peace, just, and
long-lasting peace or not. He has shown very clearly that he doesn't want to have even the ceasefire. He's pushing more heavily and attacking as
well, civilians.
So, I think that the only way to go is to put Putin and Russia under the heavy sanctions. And put Putin under the heavy pressure, because
economically, Putin is not doing well, and he's just using this opportunity that President Trump gave him to ask more. So, he's not interested about
any kind of like territories in Ukraine. He's asking actually everything he asked already years earlier. He is asking the Soviet Union influence. He's
asking that nature umbrella should be removed from the Baltic states, Finland, Sweden, Poland.
So, he's asking as well about the European security architecture, and this is something we cannot let -- allow him to get.
SCIUTTO: President Trump went even further following this attack, one, seeming to accept an explanation he heard that this was a Russian mistake
to strike Sumy, though Russia has, as you know, frequently targeted civilians in Ukraine, but also, to then take aim at Ukraine, blaming
Ukraine for Russia's invasion. I wonder what your reaction is to hearing the U.S. president, it's not the first time he or one of his senior
advisers has, in effect, repeated a Russian explanation for this war. How do you react to that?
TSAHKNA: You know, I'm reacting in a cool way because everyone knows that who is an aggressor, and there is only one aggressor, and this is Putin.
And Putin started this aggression already 2014. And 2022 he decided to continue with a very brutal way, something that we have never witnessed
after the Second World War in Europe.
So, there is no debate, I think, globally, that who is actually the aggressor. And I think that we don't need to follow Putin's narrative. We
need to understand that he's the only person who started this aggression and he's the only person who can actually stop it if he has any kind of
willingness about that. But we don't see that.
SCIUTTO: European leaders met last week to discuss aid for Ukraine. Notably, for the first time this group U.S. defense secretary took part,
but remotely. And you are hearing from countries such as Estonia that are increasing their assistance to Ukraine. Is the intention now of NATO
members to, in effect, replace the U.S. as a lead supporter for Ukraine and possibly prepare for the U.S. removing any support for Ukraine?
TSAHKNA: This is our existential question, that Ukraine must stay strong. Europe has given, through the last three years, lots of military and
economical and finance and political support to Ukraine. But we understand as well that President Trump has been pretty clear that Europe must take
more responsibilities, and we do that.
So, what we see is that we need to increase our military support to Ukraine right now because Ukraine is fighting. So, I do hope that U.S. won't cut
the support to Ukraine, because it is important for the pressure as well against Putin. But yes, I don't know whether we are able to replace the
support, but Europe must do its part and we are ready for that. So, many other countries as well, they have increased their military support within
the last week. as you mentioned as well.
SCIUTTO: Before we go, Estonia has been quite public about the potential threat from Russian ships or ships with Russians on board in Northern
Europe, paying particular attention to the safety of undersea cables there. Do you believe that Russia is deliberately carrying out a campaign, not
just to surveil those key undersea cables, but to damage them as well?
TSAHKNA: Yes, we see more and more actions from the Russian side. We call them hybrid attacks. Actually, not even the threats because this is real,
but also, we're witnessing all the other level of hybrid attacks and -- on cyber level as well.
[18:40:00]
During the last year, we have arrested more than 13 persons in Estonian territory, which were guided and financed by the Russian Secret Service.
So, we have all the different levels of attacks, not only in Estonia, but all over the Europe. So, we need to understand that Russia is pushing the
limits in our societies, between the governments and also testing us how can we react, but we are able to react.
SCIUTTO: No question. And of course, Estonia knows well from the massive Russian cyber-attack on Estonia back in 2007. Foreign Minister Tsahkna,
thanks so much for joining.
TSAHKNA: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: U.S. Immigration authorities have detained another Palestinian activist who attended Columbia University. Mohsen Mahdawi walked into his
final U.S. citizenship interview on Monday. As you can see, he was walked out in handcuffs by officers.
Mahdawi co-founded Columbia's Palestinian Student Union with Mahmoud Khalil, who's also currently fighting deportation. During a 2023 interview,
he spoke about his activism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHSEN MAHDAWI, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY STUDENT: To be anti-Semitic is unjust. And the fight for the freedom of Palestine and the fight against anti-
Semitism go hand in hand because injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Take note of those comments because of course the administration has characterized all pro-Palestinian protestors as anti-Semitic. Gloria
Pazmino has been following the story. She joins us now from New York. So, tell us what evidence the administration says it has or has shown to
support the deportation of this man.
GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, so far, no evidence has been provided, no evidence has been provided to his lawyers, no evidence has
been presented in court, which is why it's so important that we are playing that soundbite from that interview that Mahdawi did with "60 Minutes" last
year where he is talking about the pro-Palestinian cause as well as anti- Semitism. And as you hear him describe it there, he says that anti-Semitism is unjust.
Now, the reason that's important is because it appears that the Trump administration is again relying on a portion of the U.S. immigration law
that gives the secretary of state wide authority to deem a person deportable if the actions of that person are considered to be a threat to
foreign American -- to policy here -- American foreign policy, I should say.
Now, we do not know what this threat is all about. We do not have any information about that so far. We only know the very prominent role that
Mahdawi played at the Columbia University protest last year, along with Mahmoud Khalil, the other Columbia University student that's been targeted
for deportation and who is currently in detention in Louisiana.
In fact, the two of them, as you mentioned, founded the Palestinian Student Union. So, that's what we know about the activism that Mahdawi has been
involved in. We don't know anything else about any alleged criminal activity, anything alleging any sort of support to terrorist organizations
like we have seen in some of the other cases.
So, it's interesting that the administration is once again trying this tactic. Also. very interesting that, as you said, Mahdawi had showed up to
an immigration office where he thought he was going to be sitting down for a citizenship appointment. Usually, you have to come in, you have to
interview with an officer after you take a test. That's what he thought he was going to be doing that day. But instead, he was put into handcuffs and
taken into custody by immigration authorities.
Now, Jim, very importantly in this case, a judge in Vermont has already approved a temporary restraining order. So, that is going to prevent the
government from deporting Mahdawi until he gets some sort of hearing. But also, the temporary restraining order prevents immigration officers from
moving him outside of the District of Vermont. And the reason that's critical is because in the other cases we've been tracking so far, we see
that people are usually arrested, transferred around different jurisdictions before being brought down south. It looks like perhaps this
may not happen here because the judge was able to issue that order just in time.
SCIUTTO: Just briefly, are you saying that he was duped into going to the citizenship interview or he went to the citizenship interview and that's
where the immigration officers met him?
PAZMINO: His lawyers have said that he had a standing -- he had an appointment. That he had been summoned for this appointment. You know, we
don't have more detail. It's going to be hard to imagine that these different arms of government were sort of conspiring to bring him into this
building.
[18:45:00]
But clearly, they knew that he had this appointment. So, those officers that were preparing to move in and make the arrest decided to do it there
knowing that he would be expected to show up at this appointment.
SCIUTTO: Gloria Pazmino, thanks so much. Still ahead, it's a place in New York City where East truly meets West. Chinatown businesses, however, are
now already feeling the chill and the costs from the U.S.-China trade war. Their story is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: The effects of Donald Trump's destabilizing trade war are reverberating around the globe. In New York City's Chinatown, where the
made in China label is just about everywhere, store owners are already feeling the impact and now fearing for their future.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York City's Chinatown is home to a vibrant Asian community and culture. Many
shop owners in the popular tourist destination sell Chinese-made goods. Goods that are being impacted by the U.S. tariffs on China, which U.S.
President Donald Trump raised to 145 percent last week. Shops like this one rely almost entirely on inexpensive imports from China.
GEORGE MA, MAMA GROUP OWNER: I think, especially in Chinatown, you know, like our shops will be in a little bit very trouble, because 90 percent, 95
percent is from China.
YOUNG (voice-over): Mama Group sells trinkets, incense, lucky cats, and shirts with labels reading made in China. George Ma worries that the rising
tensions between the U.S. and China could severely disrupt his business, which relies heavily on spending from tourists. He says his customers will
ultimately bear the burden of higher prices from tariffs.
MA: China pay some or supply pay some, we pay some or, you know, everything come to the -- finally, we come to the customer.
YOUNG (voice-over): Many U.S. companies stockpiled ahead of the Trump tariffs, which has led to a surge in U.S. imports from China, but some
companies now are hitting pause on Chinese imports in hopes of lower tariffs in the future. Ma says his supplier is already trying to get
shipments delivered before May 2nd, but he worries there will be a halt if there are trade issues continue. The fate of his store will follow U.S.-
China trade regulations, which remain a pressing issue for Trump.
[18:50:00]
TRUMP: We lost with China over the Biden years trillions of dollars on trade, trillions of dollars, and he let them fleece us and we can't do that
anymore. And you know what? I don't blame China at all. I don't blame President Xi. I like him, he likes me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG (voice-over): But the people who don't like it at all are the ones trying to run a business in Chinatown.
Ryan Young, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Still ahead, the latest from the Champions League. One football team advances to the semifinals for a second season in a row. That and much
more in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Dramatic matches tonight in the UEFA Champions League. And we now know which two teams will be part of the last four competing in the next
round. CNN's Patrick Snell has been following the action. He joins us now. So, tell us who's ahead, who's moving ahead?
PATRICK SNELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: Hi there, Jim. Yes. Getting exciting now. Another night of high-octane drama in the EUFA Champions League.
Aston Villa, they were taking on the French giants Paris Saint-Germain, looking to try and overturn a three-one first leg deficit, booking their
place in the semis they hope. Disastrous start though for Villa here as they concede just past the 10-minute mark. Achraf Hakimi taking full
advantage of a rare era from Villa keeper Emiliano Martinez, the Argentine World Cup winner.
Not long after that, Nuno Mendes with a clinical strike here, doubling the visitors' advantage. At this point, the host needed to score at least four
goals. They had hope though, when Belgium star Youri Tielemans finding the back of the net with a deflected shot that just flies in game on. And a
frenzied second half sneak, Villa scored twice in as many minutes. First John McGinn on 55 minutes.
And then, Jim, Villa Park absolutely erupting when the home side strike again, this time it's Ezri Konsa who putting them ahead on the night.
Really good setup as well from Marcus Rashford, the low knee from Man United. That made it three-two on the night.
Villa had their chances. They couldn't get the one extra goal they needed. PSG winning a thrilling tie to advance to the semis. Five-four over the two
legs. You can see those downhearted Villa players there. Prince William in the house as well.
Barcelona were already 4-nil up from the first leg against Germany's Borussia Dortmund. Dortmund were determined to make a fight of it, and they
take the leg pass the 10-minute mark. Serhou Guirassy breaking the deadlock with a really cool penalty. Look at this. A little Panenka (ph), a little
chip there. Very casual. The Guinea International was hungry for more and he would be rewarded early in the second half.
And at this point, the 1997 winner's, Dortmund, had actually halved the deficit. A Dortmund owned goal, though making the game safe. As for
Guirassy, he wanted his (INAUDIBLE), the Guinea gets it with just under 15 to go, lashing the ball into the back of the net there, into the roof of
the net actually. Dortmund win at 3-1 on the night, but Barce advancing 5-3 on (INAUDIBLE). Barcelona's first defeat to the calendar year as well in
2025.
[18:55:00]
Here's a quick look at Wednesday's fixtures. PSG will play the winner of Real Madrid and Arsenal the Holder's Royal. They hope to overturn a 3-nil
first leg deficit against the gunners. Into Milan leading by Munich two, one after the first leg, the winners of that tie facing Barcelona. So,
we're down to the nitty-gritty, Jim, of the UEFA Champions League. It is well and truly all to play for. Back to you.
SCIUTTO: Yes, some pretty decent teams in that mix there. Patrick Snell, thanks so much.
And finally, tonight, elephants at the San Diego Zoo spring into action as an earthquake hit Southern California. The 5.2 quake struck on Monday. And
you could see the elephants get into a protective alert circle, as it's known, as that shaking begins. The older elephants scramble into place in
order to protect the two calves. Elephants have the ability to feel sound through their feet and form those alert circles when they perceive a
threat. Pretty remarkable. They know more than us.
Thanks so much for your company. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
END
