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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
Russia's War On Ukraine; Trump Could "Take A Pass" On Ukraine Peace Talks; U.S. Senator Says Abrego Garcia "Traumatized"; Pope Scales Back Appearance Ahead Of Easter; Kremlin: Progress Has Been Made In Ukraine Peace Talks; U.S. Threatens To "Move On" from Peace Efforts; Trade Talks Between U.S. And China Finally Happening, Says Trump; Seven Rare Earth Exports To The U.S. Impeded By China; Harvard Data On Foreign Money And Relationships Sought By Trump Administration; Remembering The 30th Anniversary Of Oklahoma City Bombing; Increased Violent Incidents Linked To Extremism Grows In The U.S.; Pope Recovers Ahead Of Easter Sunday. Aired 6- 7p ET
Aired April 18, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and you're watching
"The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, President Trump says the U.S. will take a pass on Ukraine. Peace talks if there is no progress soon.
The U.S. Senator who met with Kilmar Abrego Garcia says, the wrongfully deported man felt traumatized after he was held in El Salvador's mega
prison.
And the Pope scales back his appearances ahead of Easter as he continues to recover from double pneumonia.
The Trump administration's commitment to a ceasefire between Russia and Ukraine, or at least trying to make one happen, appears to be wearing thin.
Here in Washington, President Trump echoed remarks from the Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who suggested earlier that if agreement was not reached
and soon, the U.S. would abandon those peace efforts, and using Rubio's words, move on, and that could come in a matter of days.
Secretary Rubio was part of a U.S. delegation that presented a broad framework for peace to Kyiv and its European allies on Thursday. Today, the
president backed up Rubio's remarks, though he struck a slightly more optimistic tone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: If for some reason one of the two parties makes it very difficult, we're just going to say, you are foolish. You are
fools. You're horrible people. And we're going to just take a pass. But hopefully we won't have to do that. Now, Marco -- and Marco's right in
saying it, we're getting -- we want to see it end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: So here are the facts as of today, it has been 38 days since Ukraine agreed to that U.S. proposed 30-day ceasefire with Russia. That
ceasefire, of course, contingent on Russia's acceptance, which has not happened.
Matthew Chance joins us now live from Moscow. First question does Russia feel any real pressure from what you're hearing there from the U.S. to make
a deal?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look publicly, it's not expressing any pressure. No. In fact, you know, there are those in the
Russian, you know, state-controlled media saying it would be a good thing if the United States did walk away from peacemaking in Ukraine because that
would give the Russians, as the Russians a freehand to do what we need to do inside the country. It would be a walk in the park, basically, is what
they're arguing to, you know, kind of continue the war inside Ukraine without American intervention there.
But clearly there are risks that the Kremlin must be considering about what Trump might do. I mean, it's one thing if he's going to just walk away and,
you know, leave Ukraine to the Ukrainians and the European backers, but it's quite another if Trump decides that he wants to redouble military aid,
for instance, to Ukraine or impose, you know, really tough sanctions on Russia to bring it to the negotiating table.
And so, look, again, it's publicly playing down risks, but it must be considering, you know, how unpredictable the Trump administration is.
SCIUTTO: You mentioned sanctions, and of course, President Trump and others in his administration have mentioned that very possibility. Can you tell us
what is left to sanction given the array of sanctions already placed on Russia?
CHANCE: Well, I mean, you're right to make that point. I mean, Russia is one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world, if not the most
heavily sanctioned. And I don't think any of those sanctions really in the years that I've been covering the imposition of them have made any
difference when it comes to Russian policy.
They've just sort of taken it on the chin and it's had economic impact, of course. You know, people's lives are very different here. The economy is in
a very fragile state, but it hasn't stopped the Kremlin from doing what it wants to do.
What they're talking about now are secondary sanctions, particularly focusing on Russia's energy. It's oil and gas exports. This is the, sort
of, the really sensitive area of the Russian economy. It gets the majority of its money, the vast majority from sales of oil and gas.
[18:05:00]
There are limitations put on that already, but they haven't really been stopped from selling it. And if the United States were, for instance, to
sanction countries that buy Russian oil and gas, that would have a devastating impact on the Russian economy. And it's something the Trump
administration has floated as at a -- as a possibility. But it hasn't done any more than that.
SCIUTTO: Yes, we'll see if that changes. Matthew Chance from Moscow, thanks so much.
Amid those diplomatic efforts, of course, the fighting on the ground goes on. Ukrainian officials say a Russian missile attack on an apartment in
Kharkiv, killed one person and injured dozens more. It's feared others could be trapped beneath the rubble. This has been a nearly daily event
there. Civilians suffering from Russia's attacks.
Carl Larson is co-founder and president of the nonprofit Ukraine Defense Support. He's also a former soldier in the International Legion for the
Defense of Ukraine, it's a military unit that comprises foreign volunteers. Thanks so much for joining.
CARL LARSON, CO-FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT, UKRAINE DEFENSE SUPPORT: Thank you for having me, Jim.
SCIUTTO: First of all, there's an impression in this country and elsewhere that Ukraine could not fight without U.S. support or that it depends
enormously on U.S. support, and I don't want to minimize the importance of that support because it has been key. But in your experience as Ukraine has
built up its own defense industry and deploy technologies, can Ukraine continue to fight if the U.S. were to withdraw its military support?
LARSON: Well, that's a very simple answer, Jim. And yes, you're correct that American support has been very, very important to Ukraine's ability to
survive and defend its people and its sovereignty. When I was a soldier over there in 2022, I wore American equipment and was very glad to have it
because, you know, Ukraine's not a rich country. And so, every piece of equipment you get issued was very valuable. And we had to buy a lot of
equipment ourselves.
That said even if that equipment dries up, even if those supplies dry up, every Ukrainian soldier I speak to, every Ukrainian civilian that we speak
with, and of course every international, including all of the Americans, the dozens of Americans who are fighting over there, still fighting over
there are unequivocal in saying that Ukraine will keep fighting.
SCIUTTO: Drones have been particularly key for Ukrainian forces, that it is sea drones that have basically chased the Russian Black Sea fleet out of
the Black Sea. But also, on those front lines there, right now, as I understand it, the majority of Russian casualties, so the result of
Ukrainian drones. Can you explain how essential that is to the fighting today and how it's changed things on the ground there today?
LARSON: Certainly. So, what I'm holding in my hand here is a 10-inch FPV drone with a mocked-up munition underneath it. This is a -- an actual
captured Russian drone that was brought back from Ukraine. And as you can see, I have numerous examples here. We bring them back to study and learn
from them and send them back with gifts to their previous owners.
But this -- and I should mention Ukraine Defense Support does not -- we only provide non-lethal aid, night vision drones, vehicles, Humvees,
medical supplies. I should be sure very clear about that. But these drones here, these have absolutely revolutionized warfare. We're seeing the first
time in history, most injuries and deaths caused by drones as opposed to artillery. If you can use this $500 flying device to take out a $1.2
million Russian tank, will you -- that ROI is rapidly going to go in the drone pilot's favor.
And so, the drones are incredibly critical to both sides over there. Both sides are using drones extremely heavily. Both drones and they're using
anti-drone equipment such as this drone detector here which is made to detect these drones. So, we supply drones without munitions, of course, and
we supply detectors to the soldiers.
SCIUTTO: You've noted that most of your fellow American volunteers in Ukraine do not expect much help from the current administration. So, when
you hear Secretary of State Rubio and President Trump express their impatience, right, with their efforts to end the war. Are you concerned --
do you fear that the U.S. might abandon Ukraine militarily?
LARSON: Of course. We're all concerned about that. And we don't want that to happen. We want there to be a ramped-up supply. And, you know, your
previous speaker who just talked a little bit about sanctions and sanctions are important and we hope that the sanctions get ramped-up and the price of
oil drops to drain the Russian economy.
But really what's really going to put the Ukrainians in a good bargaining position is more military aid to their military.
[18:10:00]
And that needs to come from the U.S. and it needs to come from Europe. There -- it just needs to be dramatically ramped up. And if, you know, if
America is not going to send the billions of dollars that we have in the past, of course we hope that the administration does that, but even if we
don't, we have to supply the F-16 parts. We have to supply the Patriot missiles that keep the millions of Ukrainian civilians safe. And we need to
supply the critical intelligence sharing that is so necessary for them to continue to defend their country.
SCIUTTO: Carl Larson, thanks so much for giving us a view from the battlefield.
LARSON: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, now to El Salvador, where more details are emerging in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen is now back
in the U.S. after meeting with Abrego Garcia and the President of El Salvador, Nayib Bukele. Van Hollen says, he was the first to tell Abrego
Garcia that supporters back home were fighting for his release.
The Maryland man was wrongfully deported by the Trump administration. It admitted as much in court documents. The White House, however, is now
fighting a court order to bring him home. Van Hollen argued that his detention should concern all residents in the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): This case is about upholding constitutional rights, for Abrego Garcia and for every American. The president, President
Trump and the Trump administration wants to say that those who are fighting to stand up for our constitution don't want to fight gang violence. That is
an outright lie.
So, I say to the President and the Trump administration, if you want to make claims about Mr. Abrego Garcia and MS-13, you should present them in
the court, not over social media.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Senator Van Hollen made those comments after the White House posted this edited image of the New York Times headline saying Abrego
Garcia, among other things was, quote, "Never coming back." Seeming to defy words we've heard from U.S. courts.
David Culver joins me now. David, first to this meeting between Van Hollen and Abrego Garcia, do we know if the White House was involved in any way in
making that media -- that meeting happen?
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Officially, we haven't heard anything from the White House on this. But, Jim, I did speak
with a source who's very close with President Bukele, and I'm told that it wasn't so much asking for permission or even sign off, but it's very likely
and expected that President Bukele did give a heads up, if you will, to the Trump administration before they went ahead with this meeting.
That said, it was kept very quiet, even amongst the inner circle of President Bukele, and that is because they didn't want this to leak
beforehand, and in part it seemed so that President Bukele could be the one to ultimately break the news and share these images.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CULVER (voice-over): A photo-op that is sparking political spin from all sides. Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen sitting next to Kilmar Abrego
Garcia, the Maryland resident whose deportation has become a flashpoint in President Trump's mass deportation efforts and his clashes with the courts.
VAN HOLLEN: This case is not just about one man. It's about protecting the constitutional rights of everybody who resides in the United States of
America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CROWD: Yes.
CULVER (voice-over): Van Hollen met with Abrego Garcia late Thursday in a San Salvador hotel.
VAN HOLLEN: I called Jennifer to tell her that I had met with Kilmar and I told her what he said to me, which was first and foremost that he missed
her and his family.
CULVER (voice-over): Abrego Garcia's wife described the news of her husband's condition as a prayer answered. Adding that she's relieved to
know her husband is alive. Deported last month despite a 2019 U.S. Immigration Court order prohibiting his return to El Salvador, Abrego
Garcia was put on a plane and sent straight to El Salvador's notorious Terrorism Confinement Center, CECOT.
The administration first called Abrego Garcia's deportation a mistake in court. But now stand by it. In the Oval Office, Monday, Salvadoran
President, Nayib Bukele, sat next to President Donald Trump, both leaders defending Abrego Garcia's deportation and imprisonment with President Trump
deferring to others to explain.
PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: That's up to El Salvador if they want to return him. That's not up to us.
NAYIB BUKELE, SALVADORAN PRESIDENT: We're not very fond of releasing terrorists into our country.
CULVER (voice-over): On Wednesday, Senator Van Hollen traveled to El Salvador meeting with the country's vice president, and on Thursday he
tried to access CECOT without permission. We visited CECOT just days before Van Hollen attempted his visit. Officials took us into sector four, where
suspected MS-13 and 18th Street gang members are kept.
[18:15:00]
Some convicted, others still awaiting trial, but we were not allowed in other sectors where the newest deportees, including Abrego Garcia, are
believed to be held. Perhaps most surprising is that the first mention of Van Hollen's meeting with Abrego Garcia came from President Bukele.
He posted several photos with a seemingly sarcastic caption. Kilmar Abrego Garcia miraculously risen from the death camps and torture, now sipping
margaritas with Senator Van Hollen in the Tropical Paradise of El Salvador. He then added that Abrego Garcia gets the honor of staying in El Salvador's
custody.
VAN HOLLEN: As we were talking, one of the government people came over and deposited two other glasses on the table with ice, and I don't know if it
was salt or sugar around the top, but they look like margaritas. Let me just be very clear, neither of us touched the drinks that were in front of
us.
CULVER (voice-over): The photos selected intentional, according to a source close with a Salvadoran president. One of them clearly showing Abrego
Garcia's arm tattoos, the source, saying that that is intended to hint at gang affiliations, which have been publicly alleged, but not legally
proven.
Conservative allies say the meeting is proof that Democrats are siding with a suspected MS-13 gang member, but neither the U.S. nor El Salvador has
filed formal charges against Abrego Garcia, and his attorneys maintain he has no gang ties and yet he remains in Salvador in custody.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CULVER (on camera): Jim, it seems Senator Van Hollen there suggesting that those margaritas were then sent by somebody within the Salvadoran
government or possibly President Bukele himself so as to move forward with that photo-op. I will say two things stood out to me from that press
conference that he gave just a couple of hours ago. One is that according to Van Hollen, the U.S. is not paying $6 million to El Salvador to hold
deportees, but $15 million.
And the other thing is that he says, Abrego Garcia, as of nine days ago, Jim, is no longer in CECOT, the Terrorism Confinement Center. Now here's
why this is significant, he says he was moved to another prison in Santa Ana. The prison that I know that is in Sant Ana that I've been to is La
Granja (ph), it's far more relaxed and even seen as more of a work camp so that you can work off some of your sentence.
And the reason that that stands out to me is according to Salvadoran officials, they've told me this multiple times, if you're a gang member,
you are to be in CECOT. So, it seems contradictory if they're going to continue pursuing this as though he's a gang member or a terrorist, as
President Bukele has said and put him in a lesser prison.
SCIUTTO: No question. By the way, that money coming from the U.S. presumably might give the U.S. some power and influence if they did want to
comply with the court orders to bring him home. David Culver --
CULVER: That's true.
SCIUTTO: -- thanks so much.
And any minute now we are expecting an emergency court hearing on the Trump administration's plan to deport more Venezuelan nationals under the Alien
Enemies Act. That law usually used during war time is at the heart of several ongoing legal disputes about the administration's aggressive
efforts to quickly deport migrants. Some without proper legal -- their proper legal rights. Some have been accused of being part of the violent
street gang, Tren Aragua. The Venezuelans in question are currently held in Texas.
The federal judge is James Boasberg, same judge in the Trump administration. The Trump administration has conflicted with multiple times
on these questions, particularly as they relate to due process.
Still ahead, President Trump says the U.S. and China are finally talking on trade. The U.S. however, continues to dial up the pressure on China with a
new port fee for Chinese ships. We're going to have the latest on the tariff wars coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
SCIUTTO: President Donald Trump said Friday that the U.S. and China are having, quote, "Nice conversations now on trade." And he believes the two
sides can eventually reach a deal, perhaps within weeks. It should be noted that Beijing, while saying it is open to talks has not confirmed those
discussions with the U.S. are indeed taking place.
Damaged global trade already quite clear. Reports say, transatlantic trading volumes are down sharply since March. The carmaker, Ford, announced
Friday, it has stopped shipping its cars entirely to China. Trump administration is also planning to charge new fees on Chinese ships that
dock at U.S. ports. U.S. trade representative says this will help revive the American shipbuilding industry.
Sean Stein joins me now. He's the president of the U.S.-China Business Council. Sean, nice to have you.
SEAN STEIN, PRESIDENT, U.S.-CHINA BUSINESS COUNCIL: Great. Thank you for having me.
SCIUTTO: You have years of experience living and working in China, both in the State Department and the private sector. I wonder based on where Trump
is heading here and China's reaction, is decoupling of the two economies in effect a fait accompli?
STEIN: I don't know if it's a fait accompli, but it's happened. Now, the question is it reversible? So, where we are now is you mentioned that
transatlantic trade was down. If you look at the same time period, trans- pacific trade is down even more sharply.
As of early April, U.S. shipments to China were down 30 percent, coming the other direction was down 60 percent. Now, just today talking to shipping
agents, it's essentially fallen to zero except for one category. And that's companies and individuals were trying to import things they thought they
could beat the tariff date, and they couldn't.
So, those shipments are still coming and they're going to have a rude surprise when they -- when their shipment arrives, and they're going to
have 145 percent tariffs --
SCIUTTO: It was a big bill.
STEIN: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Who stands to lose more, the U.S. or China, or is it a loss for both?
STEIN: Yes, well, I think -- I don't like to think of who loses more, right? Because the fact is if you're a U.S. policymaker, a U.S. business,
you're like, is the U.S. losing and do you care if China's losing more or not? And if you're a U.S. business, you don't really care if China's losing
more because, you know, what have we got? We've got $148 billion of exports that go to China every year. We've got a million jobs, more than a million
jobs that are directly tied to exports to China each year.
And so, if you're a worker whose job is exports to China, you don't care how many Chinese workers are losing their job because you are going to lose
your job. And so, the real problem is the tariffs. And so, it's not who started it, it's not any of that. It's really just a problem that's
existential now for a lot of American companies.
SCIUTTO: Yes, and I mean, that's the point, right? Despite the imbalance, that's still a large amount of money and a large amount of jobs dependent
on that trade.
STEIN: Yes. Well, it is. But I think here's one of the problems that we have in Washington, and I've heard this talking to senior policymakers.
There is this view that China's economy is so weak that this is going to somehow bring China to its knees.
You know, that's -- yes, that might have been true a couple of years ago. Back in the first time we had the trade war, back in 2018, 2019, U.S. trade
with China was 20 percent of their global exports or traded their global trade. Now, they trade more than two times as much with Axion (ph) than
they do with the United States.
So, now we're like, you know, under three percent. So, under three percent of China's GDP, China's exports, all of a sudden it puts it into context
that just trying to like the tariffs, no. But is it going to bring their economy to their knees? Yes, not either. And so, the question is, who can
endure the pain longer? And I think maybe there was some underestimation of that on the U.S. side.
SCIUTTO: What percentage of U.S. trade goes to China? And if it's three percent of China's trade to us.
STEIN: Yes, that's a harder question.
SCIUTTO: OK.
STEIN: There is $148 billion of direct exports and more in indirect experts.
SCIUTTO: Do strongman tactics work on Xi Jinping?
[18:25:00]
STEIN: Yes. Well, you know, here's the funny thing, right? And I think you'll appreciate this and many people do, is that right now to kick off
the negotiations, the White House is telling the Chinese, President Xi needs to call President Trump. The process starts with this conversation.
But if you're in China, that's not how it works. The way it works is it starts out at sort of a staff level and a working level, works up through
the minister, and the process ends with the call between the two leaders. So, now we have the U.S. saying, it's got to start with this and try
saying, no, no, that's the end. So, we have this fundamental character or this fundamental cultural difference that needs to be overcome before
anything can happen.
SCIUTTO: No question. Sean Stein, thanks so much for clearing things up.
STEIN: Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: Appreciate it.
Well, China's Xi Jinping his decision to freeze some rare earth mineral exports to the U.S. underscores the powerful bargaining chips in Beijing's
hands. These minerals used in components from electronics to generators to big ticket items such as fighter jets and nuclear submarines. Xi placed
export restrictions on seven rare earth minerals earlier this month in retaliation for Trump's initial reciprocal tariffs on Chinese goods.
CNN's Ivan Watson explains how China created a global monopoly on these elements and why tit-for-tat tariffs could have security implications for
the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a computer mall in Hong Kong. It sells everything from security cameras to desktop
computers and phones, and almost all of this technology is made with critically important elements called rare earths.
THOMAS KRUEMMER, EDITOR, RARE EARTH OBSERVER: Everything I can switch on and off would not really work without rare earth.
WATSON (voice-over): Take a smartphone, for example.
WATSON: Rare earths are part of essential components in a standard iPhone. They're in the microphone, which is this tiny piece here. They're also in
the motor that vibrates the phone when you get a phone call.
WATSON (voice-over): And guess which country has cornered the market on rare earths. China. According to the International Energy Agency, China
refines more than 90 percent of the world's rare earths.
On April 4th, after the Trump administration began piling tariffs on Chinese goods, Beijing announced export controls on seven of 17 rare earth
materials, saying the measures are needed to safeguard national security and interests and fulfill international obligations such as non-
proliferation.
GRACELIN BASKARAN, DIRECTOR, CRITICAL MINERALS SECURITY PROGRAM, CSIS: China's export controls on April 4th were retaliation at one of America's
greatest vulnerabilities.
WATSON (voice-over): Rare Earths aren't just used in consumer technology. The Pentagon says around 900 pounds of the stuff are used in the F-35
Lightning II stealth fighter. In 2010, the U.S. Government Accountability Office warned Chinese rare earths were being used in Abrams tanks and U.S.
Navy ships.
BASKARAN: So, we are entirely beholden to China. I mean, they're weaponizing it in a trade war is what is happening, right? So, we are using
tariffs, they are using minerals.
WATSON (voice-over): In this executive order this week, President Trump wrote, U.S. dependence on China for rare earths and other critical
materials raises the potential for risks to national security, defense readiness, price stability, and economic prosperity and resilience.
The U.S. has only one rare earth mine operating in California. Since 2020, the Pentagon invested more than $400 million trying to establish domestic
rare earth supply chains. But experts say it will take years and huge investment for the U.S. to catch up with China's rare earth monopoly.
In the meantime --
JIM KENNEDY, PRESIDENT, THREE CONSULTING: If China literally cuts you off, you got six months of inventory and you just turn the lights out and go
home.
WATSON (voice-over): Ivan Watson, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Coming up, Trump versus U.S. universities. How higher education, or at least some of this standing up to his demands, others are not. I'm
going to speak to Yale law professor right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief". I'm Jim Sciutto, and here are more international headlines we're watching today.
Five people remained in hospital after a man went on a shooting spree at Florida State University, Thursday. That shooting left two people dead.
Investigators believe the suspect, 20-year-old Phoenix Ikner used a gun belonging to his mother, who's a local sheriff's deputy. An AR-15 rifle, so
familiar in these shootings, also recovered from the suspect's car, that's according to a law enforcement official.
The Pentagon says, the U.S. will withdraw roughly half of U.S. troops currently stationed in Syria in the coming months. That will reduce the
U.S. troop levels in Syria to just under 1,000. The Pentagon say it will continue to support coalition partners and remain ready to strike ISIS
remnants as needed.
A judge has ruled against Sean Diddy Combs in his sex trafficking. Hearing attorneys for the music mogul wanted an additional two months to prepare an
event. The judge says, the trial will begin on May 5th as scheduled. Combs accused of sex trafficking, racketeering, and transportation to engage in
prostitution. He has pleaded not guilty.
Well, the Trump administration is expanding demands on one of the nation's top universities. They're now asking Harvard for records on all foreign
funding and ties going back a decade. It's the latest example of a crisis, one can call it, on higher education, the dilemma for many universities
given to the Trump administration, risk losing key sources of funding.
The White House telling certain universities to cut diversity, equity, and inclusion programs and change their admissions processes, even their hiring
of faculty. Some, such as Columbia University have acquiesced. Harvard has not. And it has since seen more than $2 billion in federal funding frozen.
Trump administration has also revoked visas for hundreds of foreign students, putting their very future in this country in jeopardy. The
Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem has threatened Harvard's certification to host any international students.
Joining me now is Harold Koh, he's Sterling Professor of International Law at Yale Law School. Also served as State Department Legal Advisor under
Hillary Clinton. So, good to have you.
HAROLD KOH, STERLING PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, YALE LAW SCHOOL: Good to see you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So, first I want to draw on your legal mind, you're a law professor, of course. Is the denial of federal funds to achieve the
administration's goals, whatever they may be including on admissions and faculty hiring, et cetera, is that legal?
[18:35:00]
KOH: Well, it's a kind of discrimination against a particular viewpoint. And Justice Frankfurter once said that if there's one fixed star in the
American legal for a minute, it's that the government does not tell you what to think. It does not tell you what to say. It does not tell you what
to teach.
So, this is the imposition of an orthodoxy on people in a country in which people are supposed to be free to have their own thoughts. So, yes, it's
blatantly illegal.
SCIUTTO: How are legal challenges likely to play out in this? Because we have quite a conservative Supreme Court that has quite an expansive view
and definition of executive power. Do you see the courts ultimately seeing this as you do in terms of the legality?
KOH: Well, I think we have to think back to the unique role of universities in American society. It's one of the few places where like the military,
young people of very different backgrounds meet and get to know each other. And there is a caricature that's being put forward of the administration
that these universities are just, you know, political organizations.
But those of us who have attended universities, you know, at whatever level know that there are places where you have ideas being challenged and where
you have important knowledge. And among the knowledge that we are taught there, Jim, is climate change is caused by human beings. Tariffs are taxes
that cause inflation. That if you take vaccines, you won't get the measles. And that immigration has been good for American prosperity.
So, the same people who are trying to. Have people forget these truths are coming back to try to say that a particular viewpoint ought to be imposed
in which they start to believe in falsehoods.
SCIUTTO: Of course, you know, Yale Professor John Stanley, who has written extensively on fascism including the book title, "How Fascism Works." He
and two other Yale professors have gone to the University of Toronto. Now, I spoke to him yesterday and he gave quite a sobering assessment of the
direction of the Trump administration in terms of its exercise of power across the board, including against university.
I want to play his assessment and see if you agree with it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON STANLEY, PROFESSOR, YALE UNIVERSITY: It's quite likely that we're headed into a fascist dictatorship. It's not clear what the breaks would
be. It's not certain. The future is not certain. There could be a mass movement. There could be resistance. What Harvard University did is a
source of hope. I think people now see that standing up is much more effective. You don't respond to a domestic abuser by trying to satisfy
them. They just -- their demands just get more extreme.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Do you share his assessment as to the direction of this country under the Trump administration?
KOH: I don't think the direction is determined. It depends on whether you stand and fight. Obviously, everybody has to make their own decision for
whatever reason. He's a colleague of mine, as are others. A number of them, Tim Snyder, for example, have published things saying that they were
leaving for other reasons.
It's only been 88 days. It took my family a long time to get settled in this country and what I was taught as a boy is when the very principles you
care for are being challenged, you stand and fight.
SCIUTTO: Do -- the universities have -- and of course this depends, I imagine, on the university or the size of their financial resources, but do
they have the financial resources to resist at least the financial pressure here? Can they live without the federal funding that is being used in
effect as a cudgel?
KOH: That's what these endowments are for. The endowments are supposed to let you weather the hard times. And the richest universities in Harvard is
by far the richest. I think they could just as easily say, we are going to use our money and draw down in the endowments to a higher level than before
precisely to break this challenge and to make sure that it's never done again.
Because where the administration crossed the line with Harvard is it started to tell them what they could teach. Who could be admitted. Who
could be hired. And that is at the very core of what an organization or a university does. It's government control. And that's the kind of thing that
happens in authoritarian countries, not in the United States of America.
You know, under our constitution it was formed to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity. And part of that was by creating a
system of freedom and that it mentions that we want to promote the sciences and the creation of knowledge. And it's the creation of knowledge that's
being done in the universities. It's reported in today's "New York Times" that in the name of stopping antisemitism at Harvard, they are cutting off
research for Lou Gehrig's disease research and tuberculosis.
[18:40:00]
Yes, your viewers should think about it if they have a family member with tuberculosis or ALS, is -- are they interested in that research going on
and a cure for their loved one being found or are they interested in imposing a particular orthodoxy on a university that's devoted to a
diversity of viewpoints?
SCIUTTO: How do students respond to this in that -- you have the universities, you have the attack on the institutions, but you have
students, particularly foreign students, who fear for their own freedom, their own ability to stay in this country. You've seen cases of students
getting deported on the thinnest of evidence if there is evidence, right, of ties to terrorism, et cetera. Are they protected legally?
KOH: They will be, and I think that the universities are now going to fight for them. This came on slowly, Jim, and I think at the beginning, people
were amazed that was going on, didn't really realize how, aggressive and invasive it was going to be.
You know, if someone's arrested on the streets of New York, that's different from coming onto a campus like the one that I'm on. And I think
what started to happen, and it's I think now happening across the country, is that students and faculty are deciding, OK, there are some people who
are at risk and can't speak.
So, it's for those of us who have job security who've been the beneficiaries of these experiences to rise up. So, the universities, the
professors are all signing the same letter, that's a very unusual thing. The students are all meeting to demonstrate, and they're out there to
protect those who they think can't expose themselves by going forward, and I think it's just beginning.
As you recall from your own days, Jim, April is a time in which there's a lot of mass mobilization on campus. And I expect we're going to be seeing
quite a bit.
SCIUTTO: We'll keep watching. Harold Koh, thanks so much for joining. We appreciate the work you're doing.
KOH: My pleasure.
SCIUTTO: Coming up, experts say, the U.S. is underestimating the threat of homegrown extremism. This as the country prepares to mark the 30th
anniversary of the Oklahoma City bomb -- bombing. We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Saturday marks the 30th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing on April 19th, 1995.
[18:45:00]
It remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history, killing 168 people, including injuring hundreds more. Here's a look at how news
stations covered the horrible events of that day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is thick smoke still coming from the building and on the ground. Holy cow. About a third of the building has been blown away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are not watching some scene of international catastrophe. You are looking at your own backyard. Downtown Oklahoma City
is in flames and smoke right now. The injuries are numerous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have emergency workers walking around scratching their heads, saying they couldn't even estimate the number of victims
inside. They wouldn't even venture to death at a death toll. You can just look at that building and just imagine the worst at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just can't imagine it. There are just bodies lying everywhere. There are people just lying there screaming, trying to get out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Timothy McVeigh and co-conspirator Terry Nichols, two men who held deep-seated grievances against the U.S. government were ultimately
convicted for the attack. McVeigh, the alleged mastermind was put to death by lethal injection.
30 years later, experts say the danger of extremist violence here in the U.S. is as acute as ever facilitated by the spread of radical ideologies on
the internet. And now, today, a White House that minimizes that threat. Wendy Via joins us. She's the CEO and co-founder of the Global Project
Against Hate and Extremism. Thanks so much for joining.
WENDY VIA, CEO AND COFOUNDER, GLOBAL PROJECT AGAINST HATE AND EXTREMISM: Thanks for having me, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask a very basic question, is the risk of domestic violent extremism greater today than it was 30 years ago?
VIA: I think I'm going to say that it's greater than it was 30 years ago. We've had -- we have a lot of things in place now that were not there. One
being the internet, of course. And the ability for young people to be radicalized. And another is the accessibility of guns.
SCIUTTO: The FBI has for years identified right wing extremism, including white supremacists as the greatest domestic terrorist, even greater than
foreign international terrorism. Do you share that assessment?
VIA: I do, and what's interesting is that it was under Trump's first administration that all the major law enforcement agency in the Department
of State came out and said, this is our biggest issue. I mean, in 2019 is when they did this. We experienced multiple mass casualty and mass murders
all based on extremist ideology. And so, there was finally, after all these years of recognition of the challenges that we were facing that is of
course different today.
SCIUTTO: Do such groups feel emboldened by President Trump as they, for instance, see his comments to the Proud Boys and his pardons of January 6th
rioters including those who carried out acts of violence on that day.
VIA: Yes, they feel emboldened. These organized neo-Nazi groups, white supremacist groups, they absolutely feel emboldened. As do, individuals who
might have harbored these bigoted thoughts, they now feel freer to express them. The -- that kind of -- the idea that we can demonize communities has
been normalized under Trump and his administration has been coming for years, but it is blatant right now.
And many of the decisions that the administration is making regarding law enforcement and domestic terrorism are conflating DEI or they're using DEI
as an excuse to get rid of domestic extremism programs. And they are rewriting history regarding January 6th and the insurrectionists of that
day by pardoning them that first day of the administration. President Trump said, violence is OK. It is a viable method to show dissent and I'm going
to protect you.
SCIUTTO: So, who's standing in the way then of seeing another bombing like that, one we saw 30 years ago? If you have law enforcement agencies
deliberately de-emphasizing what remains a very real threat.
VIA: I -- that's a good question. I don't know who's standing in the way. I think that it's -- that programs that we have fought for, that law
enforcement has fought for, that civil society like my organization has fought for to at least mitigate the threat.
[18:50:00]
Because we can never know. I mean, you -- there's always going to be somebody that didn't leave a trail until we didn't know about it until
after the fact. For example, the shooting in Florida or the kid in Wisconsin. So, there's -- it's always -- it's the most difficult thing to
predict what is going to happen, but we know for sure that ignoring it is only going to make it worse.
SCIUTTO: Wendy Via, CEO/Co-founder of the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism, thanks so much for joining. We appreciate the work you do.
VIA: Thanks so very much.
SCIUTTO: Still to come, Easter weekend going differently for Pope Francis this year as he recovers from that double pneumonia. We'll have a report
from Rome for how he's managing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Holy Week is noticeably harder for Pope Francis this year. The 88- year-old typically leads the Good Friday way of the cross at Rome's Coliseum. He decided this year to delegate that to his cardinals as he
recovers from double pneumonia. The Vatican says, there could be last minute appearances, however, ahead of Easter Sunday.
Christopher Lamb has more on how the Pope is managing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not long out of hospital where he came close to death, Pope Francis is preparing to
celebrate Easter but in a very different way than previous years as he continues to recover from double pneumonia. The 88-year-old pontiff is
unable to lead the Vatican's Holy Week services. He can't speak in public for long periods. Doctors ordered him into weeks of convalescence.
Nevertheless, the Holy Father is determined to participate and to make surprise appearances. On Thursday, he went to a Rome prison to show his
solidarity with inmates, telling them that had he been able, as in years before, he would've washed some of their feet. A ritual that follows Jesus
Christ washing the feet of his disciples.
This is the high point of the church's calendar with pilgrims flocking to Rome, expecting to see the Pope.
GAIL ONTONG, TOURIST: It is very disappointing. But I think because Easter is such a special time, it didn't really take away from the celebration and
why we here as well.
LAMB (voice-over): Among them, U.S. Vice President JD Vance, a catholic, who's hoping to meet Francis. The pontiff has delegated the major Holy Week
and Easter services to certain cardinals, although he did make an appearance on Palm Sunday.
Since being discharged from hospital, the Pope has resumed some meetings, including a private visit with Britain's King Charles and Queen Camilla.
And he thanked the medical team who saved his life.
[18:55:00]
POPE FRANCIS, SOVEREIGN OF VATICAN CITY STATE (through translator): Thank you all. I pray for you. Please do so for me.
LAMB (voice-over): He even appeared casually dressed while greeting visitors at St. Peter's Basilica. Good Friday is when Christians remember
Christ suffering and death on the cross, and then celebrate his resurrection on Easter Sunday.
This year, the world's more than 1 billion Catholics would also pray for their leader, frail in health, but strong in faith.
(POPE FRANCIS SPEAKING)
LAMB (voice-over): Christopher Lamb, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Well, we wish him the best this Easter.
In today's "Good Brief," far, far away from his role-playing Ken in the "Barbie" movie, Ryan Gosling is now headed into outer space. The actor,
surprising fans with his appearance at a "Star Wars" celebration event in Japan, telling them he's starring in Lucas films next installment called
"Star Wars: Starfighter."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN GOSLING, ACTOR: Is that this script is just so good. It has such a great story with great and original characters. It's filled with so much
heart and adventure. And there just really is not a more perfect filmmaker for this particular story than Sean.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: "Star Wars: Starfighter" will be out in about two years.
Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Wish you a very good weekend. Please stay with the CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
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