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The Brief with Jim Sciutto

Tributes to Pope Francis; Pope Francis Dies at 88; Honoring the Life and Legacy of Pope Francis; Trump to Attend Pope's Funeral; U.S. Stocks Tumble; Harvard Sues the White House; Trump Defends Hegseth Amid New Signal Chat Controversy; Beijing Pro-Democracy Crackdown. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Paula Newton in for Jim Sciutto. You are

watching "The Brief."

Just ahead this hour, tributes and prayers pour in from across the globe for Pope Francis after his death at the age of 88. Markets tumble after

Donald Trump ramps up his attacks on Fed Chair Jerome Powell. And the White House denies a report that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth could soon be out

after sources say he shared military plans on a second Signal group chat with members of his family.

And we do begin this evening in St. Peter's Square in Vatican City, where mourners have been gathering to remember the life and, of course, the

legacy of Pope Francis who passed away. Within the last few hours, the Vatican confirmed that the 88-year-old pontiff died of a stroke and heart

failure.

As night fell over the square, rosary prayer was held, and the cardinal who runs the Holy Sea until a new pope was elected, sealed off Francis'

residence.

Now, earlier in the day bells tolled in the square marking the start of nine days now of mourning. The pope's body could lie in state as soon as

Wednesday, allowing people to pay their respects.

The man who led more than a billion Catholics right around the world continued his ministry right to the very end, and that was despite severe

illness. He had said he wanted to be buried in a simple tomb in the basilica of St. Mary Major in Rome instead of inside the Vatican.

And joining me now is Ben Wedeman, who is, in fact, at the Vatican. A day of profound emotion. I'm sure, Ben, at the Vatican and beyond. You know, I

always mentioned, he's an elderly man. He was battling several medical ailments. But his passing did occur on Easter Monday or as they say in

Italian Lunedi Dell'angelo, it's Monday of the Angels. Really important to so many Catholics. And many right now, considering him an angel as well.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly Pope Francis might chuckle if he heard himself described as an angel. He did

have a sense of humor and he was well aware of his own shortcomings. Nonetheless, this was a man. You mentioned the tomb that he's going to be

going to the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, not being buried in the Vatican. And he made it clear he wanted to be buried in the Earth. In a

simple tomb with a -- with just one word inscribed on it, and that is his name in Latin, Franciscus. This was a man who combined passion with deep

humility.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Bells tolled across the Vatican as thousands flocked to St. Peters Square to pay homage to Pope Francis, moments after the

announcement of his passing.

CARDINAL KEVIN FARRELL, CAMERLENGO: At 7 35 this morning, the Bishop of Rome, Francis returned to the house of the father.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Those bells soon echoing around the world. In Paris, at Notre-Dame Cathedral.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The best pop of the era.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): To the heart of London.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a man of the people.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): To Bethlehem and the birthplace of Christianity itself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We would pray for him and we love him so much.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): For the 88-year-old people's pontiff, grief now touching those he touched, traveling the globe much as he did, a reflection

of the paths he took as he sought to bring comfort. In the Congo where his 2023 visit was the first for the papacy in nearly 40 years.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): May God welcome his soul, because the pope really cared about us.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): To the Philippines, where in 2015, more than 6 million gathered in Manila to get a glimpse and a prayer.

JUDE AQUINO, ALTER SERVER (through translator): For the youth like us, he's such a big role model.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): A role model that transcended borders, seeking to bridge politics and a humanitarian promise as he made more than 40 foreign

trips to points all over the globe.

[18:05:00]

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Let us pray for the whole world because let us have a big brotherhood.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): He set the tone for his pontificate in his first speech and for the dozen years to follow, known for humility, service, and

tolerance. A pope of firsts. The first modern day pope born outside of Europe, and the first Jesuit to lead the Holy Sea.

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): God is peace. Let us ask him to help us to be peacemakers each day in our life, in our families, in our cities and

nations in the whole world.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): A piece he sought in the midst of war in Gaza, speaking almost nightly to the parish priest of the enclave's tiny

Christian community before falling ill. That message uniting the world, at least for a moment, as world leaders offer their condolences, including

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, posting to X, he knew how to give hope, ease suffering through prayer and foster unity, unifying even those

at war in a shared reverence.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The pope has done a lot, not only for his flock, but for the world in general.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Even President Trump lowering flags to half-mast in honor of the Catholic leader, despite their differing views on immigration.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: He was a good man, worked hard. He loved the world and it's an honor to do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (on camera): And of course, President Trump and First Lady Melania will be coming to Rome to attend along with other world leaders the funeral

for Pope Francis. We don't know at this point when exactly that will be. His body will be laid in state Wednesday, day after tomorrow in St. Peter's

Basilica.

We understand that from the Vatican that the conclave, which will result in the election of a new pope, will start anytime between 15 and 20 days from

now. Paula.

NEWTON: Ben, grateful for your reporting there from the Vatican as the world continues to take in the death of Pope Francis. Thanks so much.

Joining me now is the Bishop of Trenton, New Jersey, his excellency, David O'Connell. And I want to thank you for joining us. And first and foremost,

our condolences to you, your congregation. And I want to ask you firstly for your personal reflections of what the man meant to you and to the

faithful you serve.

BISHOP DAVID O'CONNELL, DIOCESE OF TRENTON: Well, I've had the opportunity to be with him, be in his presence a number of times over the years. He

certainly was a gentle giant, a great man who cherished his opportunity to be one with the people of God, to reach out and embrace, especially the

poor and the marginalized and the disenfranchised. He was, as we've been hearing all day long from all over the world, the people's pope.

NEWTON: The people's pope deed, and it is something that he set out to do really from the beginning of his papacy. And yet, there is ample debate on

how he helped the evolution of the Catholic church. What is your interpretation of what it will mean, his legacy?

O'CONNELL: Well, you know, from the moment he stepped out on the loggia of St. Peter's, you knew there was something different about him rather, than

pontificate, excuse the expression, he asked for the people's prayers and he asked for the people's blessing before he began his papacy. And that's

an unusual take.

You knew there was something different and something special about him, and it generated a great deal of hope and a lot of high expectations that he

would lead the church well during the years that he had to serve. And I think that was very true. He's a humble man.

You know, an example of an expression that we use often, servant leadership. He reached out to the poor, he reached out to especially

migrants and refugees, among the first actions that he took, his pope. And also, to serve as a gateway. A gateway of welcome to people, to all kinds

of people who were welcomed in the Vatican.

NEWTON: Yes, you certainly talk about those high expectations as well. I mean, you wrote today that his papacy was characterized by a relentless

pursuit of peace, dialogue, and unity. He tirelessly advocated for the poor, for migrants and refugees, for the disenfranchised, reminding us all

of our shared humanity.

[18:10:00]

And yet, I want to ask you, his tenure might have lived up to that. But around the world right now, many are failing to see that, they're losing

faith, that a man of faith can actually make a difference. What would you say to his aspirations and his expectations from the beginning of his

papacy, you know, to today when he left his faithful?

O'CONNELL: Well, you can see very well, you probably better than most. The impact that he had, the influence that he had, the number of people, the

greats, as well as the lowly who are responding to his life, his ministry, his papacy. You I think it's without a doubt to say that this man has

influenced the direction of the world and has reached out to everyone, everyone in search of peace, prayed for peace, advocated peace, and those

are great testaments to his legacy as pope.

NEWTON: And yet, when you look at the people that he spoke of, and he spoke a lot about people in need, about the disadvantaged, about income

inequality from the very first days of his papacy, he went to go visit the migrants that were in Lampedusa that were really being, he says, betrayed

by so many rich countries around the world.

When you look at the situation today, you know better than I, Your Excellency, the amount of despair in the world today. How do you reconcile

that when you look at the legacy of this pope?

O'CONNELL: Well, as you may know, this year is a jubilee year in the Catholic church, every 25 years, the pope decrees a jubilee year, a time

for special prayer, a time for penance, a time for pilgrimage. And this holy father took us the theme for this year, hope, giving hope, sharing

hope, being pilgrims of hope. And I think that message is a message that will last and endure.

Our holy father was a man of hope himself, and he lived with that spirit and with that conviction that that was an important message, a gospel

message for the people of the world.

NEWTON: Bishop David O'Connell, we certainly appreciate your insights here as we continue to mark the death of Pope Francis. Thanks so much. Really

appreciate it.

O'CONNELL: Thank you.

NEWTON: And joining me now is Dario Klein. He is in Bueno Aires. And we say that for Argentina they are mourning their native son. You know, as we

noted, Pope Francis, he was the father of Italian immigrants there. He held tightly to that identity. Tell me how Argentina really is marking this day

in his life.

DARIO KLEIN, CNN REPORTER: Hi, Paula. Well, people woke up this morning with this terrible news. People are still starting to process it. Here, we

are in the. Plaza de Mayo, historic Plaza de Mayo, De Mayo Square, a place of many historical moments. Now, this is the moment of Pope Francis. People

is coming here inside, people is praying. There have been many masses all day long. The last one will be at 8:00 p.m. and people is coming here to

also outside where it's building this sort of altar. You can see with lots of candles, white and yellow, with pictures of him, with flags, flags from

union, for example, flags of his team, his soccer team, football team, San Lorenzo, which he was a fan of that club.

People has been coming here all day long nonstop and probably will keep coming tomorrow. And tomorrow, I will -- coming people. These stairs are

plenty of (INAUDIBLE) right now for the worshipers that are coming here.

And people don't believe what happened yesterday. They were looking at the Obri mass, the Sunday Easter, and now they are mourning their son. As you

said, the Argentinian pope, the first Latin American pope, the first Jesuits pope. So, people is still trying to understand what happened and

coming here to mourn him. Paula.

NEWTON: And, Dario, thank you for showing us the scene there. Again, it is interesting in pointing out that he really was a man of the people,

including supporting his favorite football club there. But I want to ask you, he never returned to Argentina as pope. What did the people of

Argentina think of that right now?

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KLEIN: Well, people of Argentina always ask him to come here, even presidents, Former President Alberto Fernandez, ask him to come here. The

president now, Javier Millet, which didn't agree with him at the beginning, but then they hug and also invited him to come. But he decided to go to

other places. He said he wanted to go to places where the church didn't go often, trying to give the word of the church to other places.

Probably, I don't know, he never gave a real explanation, but probably he thought he didn't need to come here. His soul was here. His whole life he

lived here and he's -- as a priest, as a cardinal. He always worked here. He never lived in Rome before being pope. So, people is still thankful of

him and how -- the way he took the word of Argentina, the proud of being Argentinians to all over the world.

NEWTON: And bittersweet given the fact that he did not return to his home. Dario Klein, thank you so much, live for us from Bueno Aires. I appreciate

it.

And we will have more on the passing of Pope Francis later in the program. Coming up for us though now that sinking feeling still on Wall Street, U.S.

stocks beginning the new trading week with significant losses while Trump attacks the Fed chair.

And Harvard hits back. The Ivy League University taking the Trump administration to court over its proposed funding freeze. The latest in

this escalating feud. We'll have that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEWTON: And welcome back to "The Brief." Call it a case of Monday malaise on Wall Street stocks falling sharply with all the major averages down more

than 2 percent. Now, they were down more than 3 percent intraday and the dollar fell to a fresh three-year low. President Trump's latest attack

against Fed Chair Jerome Powell, helping contribute to that selloff.

Now, in a social media post, Mr. Trump called Powell, quote, "a major loser" for not lowering interest rates fast enough. All this raising new

fears that the president might try to fire Powell, a legally untested move that could trigger a severe market reaction.

[18:20:00]

Now, in addition to Powell, investors are also nervous, as you can imagine, ahead of the big tech earnings this week. They also want to see some

concrete progress on trade deals, and soon U.S. Vice President J. D. Vance and Indian Prime Minister Modi are reportedly making some headway after a

meeting on Monday. But Japanese negotiators left Washington without a deal. China is also warning countries not to strike trade deals with the U.S.

that would hurt Beijing's interests.

Global Economic Analyst Rana Foroohar joins me now on another tough day in the markets and beyond. Now, Rana, I want to tell you, I've got the

receipts. When the market was hitting highs, you talked to us about a black swan event. You could see all of this building. We now have reached, you

know -- and to talk about a black swan. OK? If we define it, it's rare, it's severe, and it has that element of unpredictability. So, now we talk

about Jerome Powell and whether or not Trump will actually fire him. How destructive could that be if he actually goes for that move?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Oh boy, Paula, it would really be a serious event for the market. I mean, there've been so many serious

events recently. But I think the firing of Jerome Powell would be of a different order. And let's just play this out for a minute.

So, for starters, that would upend nearly a century's worth of legal precedent that says the president can't fire the independent central banker

without a good cause, you know, egregious misconduct, you know, something that is clearly not in evidence here. So, there's that. Then you would get

the legal battle that presumably Jerome Powell himself might fight.

And so, there'd be a sense of, OK, you know, who's steering the Fed right now? There are a lot of democratically appointed fed governors, regional

bankers still out there. Would Trump fire them too? Would he be trying to get all to yes men? Imagine that playing out for days and weeks in the

market and you start to see a U.S. that looks much more like an emerging market.

And I would point, for example, to a country like Turkey, where President Erdogan actually did seize, you know, unauthorized powers and fired the

central banker in order to -- because he was upset that interest rates weren't being lowered quickly enough. And now you have interest rates at 46

percent in Turkey because they're having an inflationary spiral because everyone lost confidence in their economy. That's just one example of the

sorts of things you can happen when you mess with independent monetary policy.

NEWTON: And that is obviously what's spooking the markets at this point, because they clearly see it as a possibility. But let's take stock here,

Rana. I mean, if you take a measure of what the U.S. is facing, we talk about this pricing problem in all assets, right? We've got the dollar, a

three-year low, stocks, bonds, all this uncertainty. Where do you see things going from here and does it really matter in terms of which trade

deals they can get done and how quickly?

FOROOHAR: So, I want to give two answers to that question of where do things go from here? And I want to pull the lens back a little bit for the

first answer and say, let's pretend that Donald Trump wasn't even in office, doing what he's doing and creating the chaos that he's creating, I

would still have said that we were due for much lower U.S. asset price growth relative to the rest of the world that we were entering a new

paradigm in which both China and Europe would be making up, you know, more of the decision making, more of the possibly stock market and market

capitalization indexes. That's natural because the U.S. has been on top for certainly of markets for two decades, but of the world for many more

decades before that. And things go in cycles.

Now, add to that Donald Trump and the way in which he is just simply trying to pull the plug on globalization as we've known it for the last 50 years,

and you get kerosene being put on a lot of change that was already coming down the pike, and you get more change being done in a way that is

incredibly disruptive with all kinds of, you know, collateral implications that nobody's really tracking.

I mean, frankly, financial regulation has been completely defanged. You know, we don't have anybody really looking at the 360 of what do tariffs

and a weaker dollar and a falling asset markets do to the U.S., you know, ability to pay its own budgets and pay down deficits? What does that do for

the bond market? What does that do for, you know, the trading paradigm globally? There are so, so, so many questions here. I just think it's an

incredibly hard time to be an investor and certainly, to be making policy.

NEWTON: Yes. And I will say, again, you called this several weeks ago, almost months ago now. Rana, I only got -- I have about 30 seconds left.

What would you say to people who are jittery right now? And I don't just mean investors, right? There's a lot of unease around the world.

[18:25:00]

FOROOHAR: Well, let me say to -- I want to speak to retail investors and viewers of this program who are not professionals. You are not alone. I'm

anxious. Professionals are anxious. Nobody knows what's going to happen right now. You can look out the professional trading landscape and there

are diametrically different calls being made. It is a period of uncertainty. If you've got more than 10 or 15 years before you need that

retirement money, don't move it. If you have a spare cash, think about some safety assets. Think about high yielding, you know, money market funds.

Think about gold. I've done pretty well in that.

We're in a period of change. It's not a period of time to panic or make quick moves. It's also a period to pay down debt, because interest rates

are going to be going up, I suspect.

NEWTON: Yes. I have to say a lot of that advice is good in any market, but especially this one. Rana, thank you. Really appreciate it as we continue

to parse these markets. Thanks so much.

Now, coming up for us, as Catholics around the world mourn, a new pontiff will be elected. We'll walk you through what to expect.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEWTON: And welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Paula Newton. Here are some international headlines we're watching today. Mourners around the world are

honoring the life and legacy of Pope Francis who died just a day after Easter at the age of 88. The Vatican says the pontiff died of a stroke and

heart failure. It says he confirmed in his last testament that he wants to be buried in a simple tomb, in a basilica in Rome.

Israel's far-right finance minister says, bringing back hostages from Gaza is, "not the most important goal." Bezalel Smotrich says, destroying Hamas

must be the top priority. His comments threatened to deepen rifts in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's fragile coalition as pressure builds to end

the war.

[18:30:00]

The Federal Aviation Administration in the United States is investigating an engine fire on a Delta Airlines flight at Orlando International Airport,

passengers evacuated down emergency slides after flames erupted in one of the plane's engines before taking off. Delta says safety is its priority as

crews investigate the cause of that fire.

Now, the search will soon begin for a new pontiff, but first Catholics are, of course, observing nine days now of mourning. Then we will come Pope

Francis' funeral. A few days after that, the cardinals will meet in private. The last two papal elections are relatively quick, taking about

two days the longest more than two years.

Now, the secretive process has captured outsiders' imaginations. Just last year, the film "Conclave" was nominated for eight Academy awards. Even Pope

Francis' own election has been depicted on film in the Netflix movie, "The Two popes."

Nick Watt has our report on separating fact from fiction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new pope to lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics will be chosen by just around 130 cardinals in a

mysterious, many centuries old right. The conclave, conlave with key.

REV. THOMAS REESE, S.J., SENIOR ANALYST, RELIGION NEWS SERVICE: They're locked in the Vatican and all their phones are taken away. They're not

allowed to communicate with the outside world until they elect a vote.

WATT (voice-over): Every cardinal under the age of 80 is summoned to Rome for this and must swear an oath of secrecy punishable by excommunication.

REESE, S.J.: It's a secret ballot. The cardinals don't even know who voted for whom.

WATT (voice-over): Father Reese says the movie conclave got it almost right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to commit to a side.

WATT (voice-over): Except a secretly elected cardinal would never be allowed in. And the cardinal's robes were slightly the wrong color.

REESE, S.J.: I think Hollywood got it better than the Catholic church. I like the deeper red.

WATT (voice-over): By day the cardinals will sit in silence and prayer in the Sistine Chapel under Michelangelo's Magnificent Ceiling. Two votes in

the morning, two in the afternoon until one candidate wins two-thirds of the ballots. By night, they stay in a boarding house nearby where the horse

trading happens late into the evening.

REESE, S.J.: Different cardinals will go around pushing for the candidate that they would like to see become pope. Your friends have to do that for

you. You cannot do that yourself. That would indicate a level of pride that would be unacceptable in a pope.

WATT (voice-over): The pope just has to be male and Catholic. But since 1389, the cardinals have always elected one of their own. After every

inconclusive round of votes, the smoke from the chapel chimney is black. Ballots are burned with some chemicals thrown into create the color. When a

new pope is chosen, the smoke is white. At the last conclave, there was a problem.

REESE, S.J.: The monsignor in charge of the stove didn't follow the directions and the smoke came out gray and everybody in St. Peter Square

was scratching their heads.

WATT (voice-over): So, they rang the biggest bell in the square as well

REESE, S.J.: And as soon as you see it swinging, you know it's over.

WATT (voice-over): The new pope chooses a name and is ushered to the room of tears.

REESE, S.J.: And in that room, they will have three sets of papal garments, the white cassock that the pope wears, one small, one medium, and one

large.

WATT (voice-over): For the new pope to wear when he walks out onto that famous balcony in St. Peters Square.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEWTON: And our thanks to Nick Watt. Now, Pope Francis, the first Latin American and first Jesuit pontiff led sometimes turbulent reign within a

2,000-year-old institution. Now, to many believers, he will be remembered as a pastorally sensitive leader who sought to reconnect the essentials of

the Christian faith through his reforms. He also defended the planet, of course, the plight of migrants and building peace through dialogue.

Some though criticized his more open leadership style, complaining that his announcements would sometimes cause confusion. Now, he did shun a life of

luxury preferring to live in a modest suite in the Vatican guest house known as Casa Santa Marta. Today, that residence was sealed as per

tradition. And he famously used a modest fiat hatchback as a limousine during his visit to the United States in 2015.

For more on his legacy of reformation, I'm joined by Robert Ellsberg. He is the editor of Pope Francis' book, "A Stranger and You Welcomed Me: A Call

to Mercy and Solidarity with Migrants and Refugees." I want to thank you for joining us. And clearly, the theme there, front and center.

I want to ask you first, what do you believe will be the most significant and lasting part of his legacy? There was much that was unorthodox about

him, but right -- this has to last centuries, right? Not what we're looking in the present day.

[18:35:00]

ROBERT ELLSBERG, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF AND PUBLISHER, ORBIS BOOKS: Well, I wouldn't use the word unorthodox to mean unusual or unprecedented. He was

utterly orthodox in his teaching and his adherence to the gospel message. But he presented it in a different way. I think as you said, in a more

pastoral form.

And I think probably the thing that people were most struck, who weren't great students of his work. was just a very different kind of human style

of the humility that you spoke of, his clear joy in the gospel as he put it, his ability to connect with people of all kinds. And just a kind of a

spirit of love that he radiated, and he wanted that to be the kind of default language or style of the church instead of communicating in very

academic or theological abrus kinds of documents.

He just had a very spontaneous and a way of speaking that I think just really connected with people. I think that's probably what most Catholics

around the world will remember him for.

NEWTON: You know, from the very outset in the first few days of his papacy, he really wanted to highlight those that were disadvantaged around the

world. He is the son of immigrants. He certainly held true, even in the last few days, to really trying to champion the cause of refugees and

immigrants. Those that, you know, must flee because of war oppression or economic hardship.

Again, if we go back to his legacy, what is the legacy of that? Because I think so many at this hour that clinging to their Catholic fate,

undoubtedly their fate today is worse than it was than when he took over the papacy.

ELLSBERG: Well, no fault to him. I think that he --

NEWTON: No fault to him, but he -- it's influence that a pope looks for, right? That is his currency at the end of the day.

ELLSBERG: Well, not necessarily, the influence is not necessarily reflected in the policies of governments. He was aiming for something, I think, on a

deeper level to connect Catholics, people, all of all types with their humanity and their basic kind of connection with other people. He -- the

first speech that he made outside of Rome was when he went to the island of Lampedusa, which is kind of a way station outside of Italy where a lot of

immigrants from Africa and the nearest try to get there by boat and many of them drown.

And he gave -- his first mass was there. He talked about the decrying the culture of indifference, which makes it impossible for us to even see other

people as our brothers and sisters. So, it was not just affirming the humanity of migrants and immigrants, which he felt was extremely critical

to the -- very essential gospel message, but it was also a challenge to those in the affluent world who are kind of surrounded by their own

security and comfort and are able -- not able to see each other as brothers and sisters.

NEWTON: And it was that seeing others as brothers and sisters of the pope did reflect on and talk about so much. I want to thank you for joining us

as we continue certainly to follow how the Catholic church and those beyond the faith take in his passing. Robert Ellsberg for us, thanks so much.

ELLSBERG: Thank you very much.

NEWTON: Now, coming up for us, a new controversy over yet another group chat discussing U.S. military plans. This time it reportedly included the

Pentagon's chief -- the Pentagon chief's wife and brother. That story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

NEWTON: Returning now to the ongoing battle between the Trump administration and Harvard University. Now, in the last few hours, Harvard

filed a lawsuit against the White House and federal court after the administration's attempts to freeze billions in funding. Harvard remains

defiant in the face of demands to change many of its policies.

Jeff Zeleny is at the White House for us with the latest. And, Jeff, forgive me, it is hard to keep up with kind of the ins and outs of all the

legal challenges here and yet, it is true still that many are looking to Harvard in terms of setting a precedent of how you stand up to this White

House, and if you can come out victorious in the end.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: There's no question about it. It certainly is difficult to keep track of all of the

legal action, but this is a new lawsuit filed tonight, but it's a consequential one because Harvard University is pushing back at the Trump

administration and naming agencies individually by name here about that proposed a block in federal funding, that freeze of some $2.2 billion, and

then another potential round of freeze of about a -- $1 billion.

And you might ask why does Harvard need all these federal dollars? All these federal dollars. Of course, they have a very large endowment, the

largest of any college in the United States, but it is because of a federal medical research program. So, that is largely what is at stake here.

Research on everything from a cancer to epilepsy to a variety of things. And Harvard is pushing back and saying the government cannot sort of

dictate how they do their work. Now, this is kind of all masked in anti- Semitism program, but the government has extended all of that into essentially, according to Harvard, telling them what they can do.

So, the president of Harvard University was announcing this lawsuit tonight. He had some pretty stark words around that. He said, these actions

have stark real-life consequences for patients, students, faculty, staff, researchers, and the standing of American higher education in the world.

The consequences of the government's overreach will be severe and long lasting.

So, we shall see. It is likely that a judge now, likely many judges will have the final word on these funding freezes at Harvard. But you're right,

Paula, and many other universities have gone along and tried to do with the administration wants, but Harvard is standing up for the First Amendment,

for academic freedom. But again, one of the reasons they can do that is because they have an endowment of more than $50 billion. They're taking a

stand where others have struggled to do so.

NEWTON: Yes. And always good to remind everyone that although there are executive powers, this is taxpayer money and it's being leveraged against

these institutions that have a lot to give the taxpayer in terms of research, especially in things like medical funding. Jeff Zeleny, really

appreciate the update. Thanks so much.

Now, President Trump defending his defense secretary after reports that Pete Hegseth shared military plans against the Houthis on a second Signal

group chat. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He is doing a great job. It's just fake news. They just bring up stories, I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put

there to get rid of a lot of bad people, and that's what he's doing. So, you don't always have friends when you do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: Now, sources say this time the chat was on his personal phone and included his wife, brother, and lawyer. His brother-in-law do work at the

Defense Department, but his wife does not. This comes after the Pentagon chief and other top members of the Trump administration shared military

plans on a Signal chat that accidentally included the editor in chief of the Atlantic Magazine. Hegseth responded to the new allegations by

criticizing the media and former Pentagon employees.

[18:45:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try

to slash and burn people and ruin their reputation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: General Wesley Clark is a former supreme allied commander of NATO and he joins us now. And listen, I will get to the details of this

momentarily. But firstly, I want to try and take everything together here. We have had three months of the Trump administration now, given everything,

including the firings, the breaches, how do you measure, in your estimation, the risk to America's national security right now, given

everything that's gone and especially with the National Security establishment?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, I think President Trump is trying to take the United States in a new

direction. And anytime you try to move a country that's got a well- established and successful security establishment in a new direction there are risks and there's some big risks here.

For one thing, the Homeland Security has cut off the cyber protection and cyber warning throughout the American government and to allies. For another

thing, cyber command has been told not to treat Russian or Chinese intrusions, not to worry about them into the cyberspace. There's rumors of

cutbacks of military forces.

President Trump campaigned on peace through strength. Senator Roger Wicker, head of the Armed Services Committee in the Senate, says the defense budget

needs to be doubled. But secretary head Hegseth apparently says he's going to reduce it by 8 percent. Take 70,000 troops out of the army and pull out

of Europe and make Europe the risk category.

So, there's a lot of things in motion right now. And the personnel changes and the personnel instability just aggravate it. So, it is a time of great

risk. And don't forget, we've got Ukraine and we've got Iran right there. And the administration's worried about China and the U.S. border.

NEWTON: A sobering situation, no doubt. And on the breach itself, what could be the consequences for a secretary of defense sharing this kind of

sensitive information? I mean, look, they do work for the Defense Department. His wife does not. We made that explicitly clear. What should

the consequences be here?

CLARK: Well, the truth is, I think this is a continuation of the first incident. I think it's the same information. It sounds like he put his own

Signal group together right after he did the one with the White House and thought, hey, this is such a great idea. I'll bring all my wife and my

close associates in on it. And I'm not sure why he would do that.

But certainly, this is classified information. He owes the American military, especially the pilots and their families who were put at risk by

this an apology, not dodging it, not attacking people. Apologies. He's made a mistake. Take your medicine. This is the kind of integrity that the

American people and especially the men and women in uniform expect of their leadership. And as the secretary of defense, he got set the example.

NEWTON: Do you think he should step down or do you think the president would fire him over this? I.

CLARK: Well, you know, that's second guessing. I don't think the president's going to fire him because of the politics of it. But the point

is, he picked a man and got his nomination assured, and he became secretary of defense. He's a man who has a very light resume. He was a National Guard

officer. He did go into combat area. That's good. But he was a junior officer. He'd never been at the top level of any big institution, and the

institutions he'd led, he didn't have a very good record in.

So, the president chose loyalty over experience and demonstrated performance. And this is what he's got. But I think the president likes

loyalty first. And so, I think he's going to stay with him. I think we're going to have to hope he does the best he can for the United States and for

NATO. And there are a lot of us in uniform and out who are watching and concerned and pulling for him to do the right thing.

NEWTON: And when we talk about our allies and how they may be taking all of this in, what are they thinking to themselves at this point? Because there

is a level of distrust here, which might creep into this, right? It is negligent to put this on Signal no matter what, is it not?

CLARK: Yes, it's a big violation. And it -- coupled with other things, I think it does raise issues about the security of information that would be

shared with the United States and it also raises concerns about the credibility of the United States leadership and whether they can be

dependent on, whether they're reliable, whether we're a consistent, reliable, dependable ally.

I know that's hard for the American people to take because we've always felt like, hey, we're the big dog. We're paid for it all. What are you

doing questioning us? But the truth is that a lot of things are -- have changed in the last, let's say, 90 days and people are all over the world

are telling Americans, we're concerned.

[18:50:00]

One of the latest things that's of greatest concern, I guess, to those of us who've lived abroad is some countries are saying to their citizens,

don't travel to the United States. And this is a real blow because one of America's greatest strengths has been not its military, it's appeal, it's

soft power. The fact that people love to come here and travel and want to emulate the United States and looks like we're in trouble in that respect.

NEWTON: It has indeed been a realignment that has been shocking to so many. General Wesley Clark, we'll have to leave it there. Thanks so much.

Appreciate it.

Still ahead for us, Hong Kong's oldest and largest pro-democracy party shutting down. The latest victim of Beijing's ongoing crackdown on descent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEWTON: The pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong is about to suffer yet another significant blow. One of the city's most prominent opposition party

says it's shutting down under pressure from Beijing. China's crack down on descent, making it virtually impossible for it to continue. Kristie Lu

Stout has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The party will soon be over. Hong Kong's largest opposition group, the Democratic Party, had long

been a symbol of the city's freedoms. But amid a national security crackdown, it will soon be no more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not what we wanted to see.

STOUT (voice-over): At the handover '97 Beijing promised Hong Kong 50 years of one country, two systems autonomy. In the wake of the 2019 protests,

pressure on the city's freedoms intensify.

STOUT: This new reality has been shaped by national security law imposed by Beijing. Electoral reform to make sure that only pro-China Patriots govern

Hong Kong and a second security law passed last year.

EMILY LAU, FORMER CHAIRPERSON, HONG KONG DEMOCRATIC PARTY: It's very, very sad. And we've been around for over 30 years and we've got the support of

many Hong Kong people. And it's very sad that we have to close down.

STOUT (voice-over): Lau is a veteran lawmaker and former Democratic Party chair. She's dressed in the color of the pro-democracy movement.

LAU: I hope I won't get arrested for wearing yellow.

STOUT (voice-over): For more than three decades, Lau has been advocating for Hong Kong's democracy. These days she visits her colleagues in

detention or facing trial.

LAU: We will carry on. Maybe one day I would disappear. I may get arrested, thrown into jail or whatever, but it has to go on. Not that we want a

revolution. We are not saying we are fighting for independence of Hong Kong or secession. No. We are fighting for the Chinese government to keep the

promises of one country, two systems, the basic law and the sign of British Joint declaration. And what is wrong with that?

[18:55:00]

STOUT (voice-over): The crackdown has drawn international ire. The Hong Kong government repeatedly says the rights and freedoms enjoyed by the

people is protected under law. The Democratic Party recently marked its 30th anniversary just months before the party called its own future into

question.

LAU: Well, if it has to happen, it happens. But the game is not over and the struggle goes on.

STOUT (voice-over): The game is not over, but the party will come to an end.

Kristie Lu Stout, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NEWTON: And finally, for us, a South Asian artist creates a sand sculpture honoring Pope Francis. Sudarsan Pattnaik puts the final touches on this

portrait in Eastern India on the beaches of Puri, known for its ancient Hindu temples. He used about eight tons of sand to build it, saying, today

is a huge loss for the world. And this is a way for artists to pay tribute.

I want to thank you for your company. I'm Paula Newton. You've been watching "The Brief." Stay tuned for more with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:00:00]

END