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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: Trump Hits Out at Zelenskyy; Trumps Softens His Tone on Tariffs; Pope Francis Lies in State; Tourists Attacked in Kashmir; Meeting MAGA Media at the White House; E.U. Hits Apple and Meta with $797M Antitrust Fines. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired April 23, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all over the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and you're watching "The
Brief."
Just ahead this hour, Donald Trump focuses his criticism, not on Russia, but on Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, for refusing to recognize
Russian control of Crimea. Stocks climb as Trump softens his tone on tariffs. And the U.S. treasury secretary says there is an opportunity for,
quote, "a big deal" with China. And candlelight gatherings in Kashmir in the wake of Tuesday's horrible terror attack, which claimed 26 lives
With President Donald Trump's promise to end the conflict in Ukraine in a single day now very much a distant memory. A European official tells CNN
the president now wants to get it done within the first 100 days of his administration. For the record, we are now at 94 days into his presidency.
With that time seemingly running out, the president berated the Ukrainian leader, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, once again, this time on social media,
repeating the accusation that he had, quote, "no cards left to play," while at the same time claiming the sides are very close to a deal.
Despite that peace talks in London have been scaled back, notably absent the U.S. secretary of state, Margo Marco Rubio, skipping them entirely.
Vice President J. D. Vance was left to explain what a deal might look like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: One of the final steps, which is at a broad level, the party's saying, we're going to stop the killing, we're
going to freeze the territorial lines at some level, close to where they are today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The vice president there talking about freezing what he called territorial lines. On Tuesday, President Zelenskyy made clear he would not
recognize Russia's control of Crimea, which CNN has reported is one provision of the proposed peace deal. Of course, Russia took Crimea by
force in 2014. But today, the White House press secretary said no one was, in fact, expecting the Ukrainian president to do that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is not asking Ukraine to recognize Crimea, nobody has asked them to do that. What he is
asking is for people to come to the negotiating table, recognizing that this has been a brutal war for far too long, and in order to make a good
deal, both sides have to walk away a little bit unhappy.
And unfortunately, President Zelenskyy has been trying to litigate this peace negotiation in the press, and that's unacceptable to the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: President Trump spoke about the prospects of a deal a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think we have a deal with Russia. We have to get a deal with Zelenskyy, and I hope that Zelenskyy -- I thought it
might be easier to deal with Zelenskyy. So, far it's been harder. But that's OK. It's all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: He of course did not note there that it was Russia that invaded Ukraine. CNN Senior International Correspondent Fred Pleitgen joins me now
from Moscow. And, Fred, I wonder where you are, what the view is among Russians of the chances of a peace deal coming together soon.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Jim Russian State TV has certainly been feasting on the fact that that
meeting that was supposed to take place in London got postponed, that the U.S. secretary of state did not show up there. In fact, there was one with
the main shows here on Russian State TV that said that they believed that this was punishment by the Trump administration for Volodymyr Zelenskyy for
humiliating Donald Trump in public, as they put it, by not wanting to recognize Crimea as a Russian territory. That's certainly been a big point
of debate, obviously here in Russia.
As we know, Russia annexed that territory back in 2014, considers that to be part of Russia. And if you look at some of the narratives that we've
been hearing coming out of the White House and some of the narratives that we've been hearing from the Kremlin, a lot of them are actually very
similar.
Right now, the Kremlin also saying that it is the Ukrainians that don't want peace, that it's Vladimir Zelenskyy that's stalling the process. But
also taking on that narrative that we've been hearing from the Trump administration as well that it was the Biden administration that ruined
relations with Russia, that it's the Europeans that are also holding up the process and essentially want the war to continue. At the same time, the
Russians certainly don't seem to be in any rush to get to the negotiating table quickly. They are saying, and this also comes in the form of the
Kremlin, but also some senior Kremlin aids as well, that there are still very difficult points and questions that need to be answered before a
ceasefire can be put in place.
[18:05:00]
There's also one other thing that really caught our eye this evening here in Moscow, and that was an interview that Kremlin spokesman, Dmitry Peskov,
gave to a French publication where he said that there could be peace between Ukraine and Russia if the Ukrainians pull their troops out of what
Russia calls Novorossiya and the Donbas region. Those, of course, are the four regions that Russia invaded fully in 2022, but which it does not fully
control.
So, it seems as though, or it could be construed that the Russians actually don't only want to freeze the lines of the conflict on where the troops
stand right now, but actually, want the Ukrainians to pull further back as any part of a larger peace agreement.
We're still looking for clarification for that, but it certainly seems as though, right now, the Russians are still holding on to very maximal
demands that they've set out at the beginning of course, of that invasion where they essentially wanted the Ukrainians to surrender to the Russians
disarm, say that they will never be part of NATO and of course, cede large parts of their territory as well. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yes. A notable difference there, Fred Pleitgen in Moscow, thanks so much. Well, recognizing Russia's control of Crimea would overturn more
than a decade of U.S. policy. Let's take an in-depth look at a vital part of Ukraine's post-Soviet identity. With a prime position in the Black Sea,
Crimea controls key trade in military routes. It was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954, this, of course, during the Soviet era.
Ukraine became independent however in 1991. Agreed to give up its nuclear weapons in 1994. In return, and this is crucial, Russia recognized all of
Ukraine's territory and agreed not to attack it. Many Russians do see Crimea as rightfully theirs. President Vladimir Putin claims it is, quote,
"a sacred place."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): In our hearts, we know that Crime has always been and always will remain an enable (ph) part
of Russia. This is part of the justice which has gone from generation to generation. This is time to be strong, and we see this from all the
dramatic changes which have lived through our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: So, Russia seized Crimea in 2014 by military force, sending in those little green men, then carried out widely disputed referenda and
annexed the territory, which was condemned by the U.N. General Assembly. The U.N. affirmed Ukraine's territorial integrity declared that referendum
invalid. In response, then came a wave of sanctions by the U.S., the E.U., and other nations against Moscow. However, all these years later, Russia
still holds Crimea. It is the home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet and its southern naval power.
Ambassador William Taylor is the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine. Thanks so much for joining.
WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Jim, Nice to be here.
SCIUTTO: First, to President Trump's comments today. Once again, he blames Ukraine for the failure of peace efforts. We should note, and it's a fact,
Ukraine actually agreed to Trump's ceasefire. Russia has not done so and offered no public concessions that we've at least heard publicly. Why does
President Trump continue to blame Ukraine, hold Ukraine accountable, and not publicly hold Russia and Putin accountable?
TAYLOR: Inexplicable, Jim, inexplicable. As you've reported, there is no doubt in anyone's mind -- there's no doubt in Russian's mind that they
invaded Ukraine. First in 2014, as you've just pointed out, and then in 2022 in a massive invasion.
SCIUTTO: We know we've discussed this, others have discussed this privately, that it is almost accepted that Ukraine cannot, at least for
now, retake Crimea by military force. However, there's an understandable refusal of those in the West, but also Ukraine, to recognize the annexation
as legal as a fact. Can you explain why that's important, why that difference is important?
TAYLOR: I think it's very important. And you're exactly right to highlight it. That is if Ukraine or Europe or the United States recognizes Russia's
claim, legal claim to Crimea or other part -- other -- Donbas, other parts of Ukraine, then we will be blessing the aggression.
Whereas, if we recognize, if the Ukrainians recognize, if the Europeans, if the Americans recognize that the Russians occupy de facto, they are there,
we can recognize that, and the Ukrainians are not going to take it back through military force, but at some point, the Ukrainians would like to get
it back diplomatically.
So, they won't give up claim. They won't give up legal claim to Crimea or to Donbas.
[18:10:00]
SCIUTTO: Is there a way in a peace agreement or even an armistice style agreement, because folks have talked about the Korean model, of course, all
these decades later, it's still an armistice that stopped the war in Korea. No formal peace deal, is there a way to kick that issue down the road?
TAYLOR: I think there is. This could be -- if the Americans want to recognize Crimea as Russian, the Ukrainians don't have to do that. The
Ukrainians can say, fine. The Americans recognize that, we don't. Europeans will make their own decision. My bet is they won't recognize it either.
That should not be a deal breaker.
The Russians really want the Ukrainians to say that it's theirs? No, they want the Americans to say that. And if the Americans are going to say that,
they don't have to have the Ukrainians say that.
SCIUTTO: What is the alternative here if Ukraine -- and by the way, if Ukraine's European allies don't like the outlines of the deal the Trump
team is presenting, and that does appear to be the situation right now, can they say no?
TAYLOR: They can say no.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
TAYLOR: They can say no. And they have. What they can say though is, no, but we want to continue the conversation. That's what they did on the
minerals deal. They said no to the minerals deal at first, two times they've said that, and they said, but we want to have another conversation.
We'll give you a counter proposal. A counter proposal is the way diplomacy works, the way negotiations work. You don't just say, this is it, take it
or leave it. No, it is a discussion and I think that can be done.
SCIUTTO: Do -- as you watch this right now, is there a possibility that Trump can get the normalization with Russia that he seems to desire without
settling the war on Ukraine? In effect, say I'm moving on for this, the war consumer, but I'm still going to find a way to have reproachment just
direct the U.S. to Russia?
TAYLOR: It could it will be difficult because there are sanctions on -- there are legal sanctions on Russia from the United States, as well as from
Europe. Europeans will not lift those sanctions. It actually may be difficult for the U.S., for President Trump to lift these sanctions.
They're in law and there are ways that the -- that Congress has said, you need to check with us before you lift these -- you know, there -- it could
be some difficulty.
SCIUTTO: That would require congressional action?
TAYLOR: It could require congressional action.
SCIUTTO: Right. We'll watch the space. Ambassador Taylor, thanks so much as always.
TAYLOR: Jim, thanks.
SCIUTTO: U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent says the U.S. and China have the opportunity to strike what he calls a big deal on trade. And he
said, for a second straight day, that the tariff levels on both sides are currently on sustain. President Trump sounded hopeful on trade Wednesday,
one day after saying tariffs on China will come down. He'll reduce them substantially.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you clarify, Mr. President, on China?
TRUMP: Yes. We are going to have a fair deal with China. It's going to be fair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you talking to them actively now?
TRUMP: Actively, everything's active. Everybody wants to be a part of what we're doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The White House dismissed reports the U.S. will unilaterally lower its tariffs on China, which currently stand at a whopping 145 percent
in order to help facilitate talks. China has continued to strike a confrontational tone saying, quote, "To keep asking for a deal while
exerting extreme pressure is not the right way to deal with China and simply will not work."
Bessent criticized China's export driven economy in a speech on Wednesday, calling it unfair to the U.S. and other global trading partners.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: China's current economic model is built on exporting its way out of its economic troubles. It's an
unsustainable model that is not only harming China, but the entire world. China needs to change. The country knows it needs to change. Everyone knows
it needs to change, and we want to help it change because we need rebalancing too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: On Wall Street, trade hopes helped U.S. stocks rally for a second straight session, although shares finished off their session highs. Mary
Lovely joins me now. She's a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. Thanks so much for joining.
MARY LOVELY, SR. FELLOW, PETERSON INSTITUTE FOR INTERNATIONAL ECONOMICS: Of course.
SCIUTTO: Let me start, if I can, with a big picture here. So, far, what has this escalation of the trade war accomplished? Has it brought the U.S.
to date any better trade terms with any country, including China?
LOVELY: Well, there are some concessions, I would say, on the table, particularly from smaller and more, you know, trade dependent countries for
whom this type of aggressive action may actually lead to changes in their own domestic calculus about tariffs. But for the large countries, for
Europe, for China, we're not seeing any movement as of yet.
[18:15:00]
SCIUTTO: It does seem that the one thing that moves Trump has been the markets. First, it was the bond markets led to that pause and then further
market trouble, and it seems some pressure perhaps from his defense secretary to at least talk in a more conciliatory tone. I wonder, do. U.S.
trading partners buy that, right? Because it goes up and down so unpredictably seemingly, day to day, hour to hour. I mean, how do you
negotiate a nation-to-nation trading deal in those circumstances?
LOVELY: Well, the negotiating environment is fairly toxic right now especially for countries that want to approach the United States as a peer.
And you know, whether President Trump is paying attention to the markets or to the multitude of voices that are telling him that this is commercial
suicide for many U.S. companies, you know, we really don't know. But they are hearing it from all sides that this strategy so far just isn't bearing
the fruit that they promised it would bear.
SCIUTTO: Is the economic damage to the U.S., at least in the near-term, already baked in? Because you hear from so many companies in so many
different sectors saying, I just can't make the most basic business plans because I don't know what X is going to cost tomorrow or next week or next
month, and therefore, reducing orders and so on. When you speak to businesses and business leaders, is your sense that there's an economic
bill that's going to get paid but by this country and soon?
LOVELY: It's a bill that's certainly coming. It's going to be a long-term bill. That means a bill that -- you know, a price that we're going to
continue to pay over and over again. We're hearing about alternatives to the dollar. We're talking about diversifying away from the United States.
We've been used to talking about de-risking from China, but now, other countries are talking about de-risking from the U.S., reducing their
dependence on the U.S. market. All of that is bad news for U.S. exporters.
SCIUTTO: That de-risking, it's a great way of describing it, right? Because I've heard this from -- I mean, I spoke to the Spanish economic
minister yesterday said, let -- yes, we're going to be making deals with other people. We'll still trade with the U.S., but we got to talk to other
folks. That includes China. You hear that from Canadian officials.
It strikes me that that's a move -- that the momentum is strong enough that that can't be pulled back even with another pause or a slight reduction of
tariffs, that they're making longer-term plans without us.
LOVELY: Yes. As one person put it to me today, I mean, what faith -- what trust can we have in the United States when a deal the USMCA, which was
negotiated by President Trump, was just basically destroyed over a two-week period?
So, yes, this -- there is a long-term price to be paid here for the uncertainty and the erosion of trust, frankly, that this is made evident.
SCIUTTO: Mary Lovely, thanks so much for joining.
LOVELY: You're welcome.
SCIUTTO: Catholics, of course, continue to mourn the passing of Pope Francis. How people are now celebrating his life all the way from the
Vatican to Argentina, his home. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
SCIUTTO: Mourners have now begun gathering in the Vatican to pay their final respects to Pope Francis. A procession carried the pope's body to St.
Peter's Basilica. It is now lying-in state. There for three days on Saturday, Pope Francis will be buried. Ben Wedeman has more from the
Vatican.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In reverence and respect the faithful United in tribute to Pope Francis
Wednesday. From the modest chapel, Casa Santa Marta, through the storied streets of the Vatican. Pope Francis' simple wooden coffin held aloft by
pallbearers and followed by his cardinals and Swiss guard in a somber cortege.
The historic procession was welcomed to St. Peter's Square by more than 20,000 people, the Vatican said. The applause of tourists and faithful
following his open coffin as it was moved into the Basilica. Here, the Pope will lie in state before his funeral Saturday.
Coffin on the floor, his hands clasping the rosary, a mark of his wish for simplicity and death as in life. After the service, a chance for the
faithful to say farewell, lines of mourners who had cued since the early hours flooding in.
Irma Herrera-Recio and her 80-year-old mother were in the crowds when the pope appeared at Easter Sunday mass. Days later, they're back to say
goodbye.
IRMA HERRERA-RECIO, VISITING FROM LOS ANGELES: This has been her dream to come to the Vatican, to come to Rome and get to see the pope. We were
hoping we would have him for a while because of all the wonderful things that he did.
LOUIS KEMAYOU, VISITING FROM U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS: He the leader of faithful and men and women of goodwill. So, I was so humbled to be on among
those who honored that great man.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): The pope's body now back with the flock he loved ahead of his funeral and burial.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Pope Francis' home, Argentina has ordered seven days of mourning. Francis was the first pope from Latin America, born in Buenos Aires in
1936. The Catholic Church of Argentina scheduled a mass this Saturday to coincide with Francis' funeral in the Vatican. The pope's beloved San
Lorenzo football club is honoring his memory in its own way with his fellow fans, lighting candles at the club's chapel.
David Culver joins me now from Buenos Aires. And he was, throughout his life, a football fan and loyal to San Lorenzo right to the end. I wonder
how fans there are showing their respects.
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He was a huge fan, Jim, a card-carrying member. I'll get to that in just a moment. But San Lorenzo
was his team. And if you think of the spiritual birthplace, the club says, this is a football soccer. This is where you've got fans now gathering and
players as well.
And you can see in the red and navy, some of the jerseys. Inside, this is a little chapel, and you've got folks who are now just about to begin
(INAUDIBLE). So, we won't step inside there, but that's where you have people who are coming to remember, to pray and to celebrate. They have said
that this is a celebration of his life as well, and to honor who they consider to be their biggest fan.
Let me step over here. I want to show you, Jim, when you think of Lorenzo, the name, this is the namesake here. And it's Father Lorenzo. And why this
is important is because this is a man who brought in children who had no homes to go to, created a home for them and a refuge here. And mix that
with sport.
[18:25:00]
And the reason that's important is because you got to think about Pope Francis and his love for sport. He obviously had an illness as a young
person. So, so he couldn't play to the full extent. But the position he liked was goalkeeper. And the reason he said that is so important and
served him well later in life is because it taught him how to deal with things coming at him from all different angles.
But he also spoke about sport in a way that was to nurture young people and to keep them from being isolated and shuttered in and allowed them to be
out, as he said, in the world, socializing and not to be stuck in this virtual mentality. So, for him, that was a way to escape that and to be, in
a way, part of the world. He used to tell his priest that here as cardinal archbishop, he'd say, be part of the flock.
Now, I mentioned the card-carrying aspect, so it gives you an idea of just how much of a fan he was. The -- of this chapel spoke to a really symbolic,
significant thing that they spotted, and now a lot of people here are talking about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The day we gave him his membership card, he said he would accept it, but added, I'll pay the fee, he said. He
paid his membership fees for the San Lorenzo Club religiously. We handed him the card in person and it had the membership number 88235. Now, he has
passed away at the age of 88, at 2:35 in the morning Argentina time. So, we don't know if it's a blessing, a coincidence, or something he sent us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CULVER: And people here that we've spoken with who have gone in have said that's, in their mind, not a coincidence. It's exactly what it's supposed
to be. And so, they're all keeping that as an anecdote that they believe is a very personal reflection on the man who they consider to be the greatest
fan of this football team.
I have also read, Jim, in his book, he was asked about the being the namesake of the new stadium for San Lorenzo here in Buenos Aires. And the
club president has said that he went to Rome last September and he asked the pope about this, and the pope seemed to accept it with bit of
gratitude. However, in his book he said he doesn't like the idea. And, Jim, that perhaps more speaks to his humility rather than not wanting to be
associated with the team that he obviously loves so much.
He, by the way, didn't watch TV, Jim, but he would have one of the Swiss guardsmen put notes on his desk so that he could keep track of scores
during games and just to see where they are in the rankings throughout the years.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, I love that he paid his club dues religiously, as the club member said there, you know --
CULVER: Paid his dues. Yes.
SCIUTTO: It's a great line. David Culver in Buenos Aires, thanks so much.
Still ahead. There are protests now across India after one of the deadliest acts of violence against a group of Indian tourists in Kashmir, one of the
deadliest acts in years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. And here are more international headlines we're watching today. Talks in London to bring
about a peace deal in Ukraine have been described as productive and successful by the British Foreign Office. The meeting had been downgraded,
however, after the U.S. secretary of state, Marco Rubio didn't show up. European officials says President Trump is aiming for a peace deal within
the first 100 days of his term, only a few days left before that deadline.
President Trump did sound hopeful on trade a day after saying he would lower tariffs on China substantially. He says there is direct contact now
between the new two nations. The U.S. treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, also says Washington and Beijing have the opportunity now to strike what he
calls a big deal on trade. Beijing says that will only happen if the U.S. stops pressuring China.
Opening statements began Wednesday in a new trial for the disgraced Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein. Weinstein being retried in New York on
rape and assault charges. You may remember the court overturned the conviction of the 73-year-old last April, and appeals court said the trial
was unfair because women who were not part of the criminal charges testified for the prosecution. Weinstein in this new trial has again
pleaded not guilty.
Rallies in Indian controlled Kashmir in remembrance of the 26 people who were killed in a major terror attack there on Tuesday, the deadliest attack
for India nearly two decades. The mass shooting, which appeared to target sightseers at a popular tourist spot took place in a region disputed by
India and Pakistan. More than a dozen people were also injured.
Survivors are now telling harrowing stories of the incident. A little-known militant group called the Resistance Front has claimed responsibility. CNN
cannot verify that claim. Pakistan, for its part, is denying any involvement. India is pointing, however, to quote, "cross-border linkages"
to this group of this attack. It has downgraded its ties with Islamabad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJNATH SINGH, INDIAN DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): From this platform, I assure the countrymen that the Indian government will take
every action, which will be necessary and suitable. We will not only get the attackers who executed the attack, but also those who were sitting
behind the scenes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Suvir Kaul joins me now. He's a professor at the University of Pennsylvania. Good to have you. When you hear Indian officials here, well,
one, they're cutting -- at least downgrading ties with Pakistan, talking about those behind the scenes, do you see India in effect as blaming
Pakistan for this attack?
SUVIR KAUL, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA AND AUTHOR, "OF GARDENS AND GRAVES: KASHMIR, POETRY, POLITICS": Jim, may I begin by saying today
is a day of mourning, not only in India, but in Kashmir. No one know, regardless of their political persuasions, wants to see people butchered in
cold blood. I also want to point out that there is a young Kashmiri man who accosted these attackers who were shot too. So, Kashmiris are mourning as
well as India.
Now, to answer your question, the Indian government seems to be clear that there are cross border linkages. They haven't provided any proof, but they
are doing all they can to escalate matters such that their position on this mass killing is quite clear, they do blame Pakistan.
SCIUTTO: What do we know about the group behind this previously unknown but potential ties, it seems, with Lashkar-e-Taiba, which of course carried
out one of the most horrific attacks in India, the Mumbai attacks back in 2008. Is this entirely a new group?
[18:35:00]
KAUL: I have not heard of them before. But, you know, I don't think anybody knows who they are. And rebranding small groups of people, whether
or not they're connected to larger groups, as you know, this can happen overnight. So, I, at least, have never heard of them.
SCIUTTO: Does this have the potential for sparking an escalation between India and Pakistan?
KAUL: It has that potential, but I really, really hope it doesn't come to that. Kashmir has been a problem ever since India and Pakistan came into
being as independent nations. Unless there is a lasting, mutually assured piece, it'll continue to be that kind of flashpoint. We really need
maturity in both national establishments to address these issues at a very, very difficult moment like this one.
SCIUTTO: Can you describe the political pressure now inside India, because you do have voices there calling for retaliation, even discussions of a
Gaza-like response? I wonder where those political pressures might lead.
KAUL: You know, there are political pressures on both national establishments. India, this government in particular, has established its
reputation. It has been repeatedly elected on the strength of its commitment to national defense, and what they speak of as the integrity of
the nation.
So, there will be a great deal of pressure on them. Self-imposed pressure, in some cases. These will be politicians who will want to save face, that
is the term that is often used, by escalating this to the point of a military response.
I just hope there will be enough people in the establishment on both sides the -- of the border who will be speaking to each other, recognizing that
this is a terrorist act and needs to be treated as such rather than thinking of it as inevitably state sponsored violence.
SCIUTTO: Suvir Kaul, professor at the University of Pennsylvania, we do appreciate you joining. I should also mention author of the book, "Of
Gardens and Graves: Kashmir, Poetry, Politics." Thank you.
KAUL: Thank you for having me.
SCIUTTO: Coming up, the White House Press Corps has seen a shakeup under the Trump administration. We spoke to some of the faces inside the briefing
room.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:00]
SCIUTTO: The Trump administration has added so-called new media outlets to the White House briefing room, including Steve Bannon's podcast and Mike
Lindell's media platform. Many of the new correspondents are openly pro- Trump and say their views are aligned with their audience interests. CNN Donie O'Sullivan spoke to some of them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: This is my first time in here.
NATALIE WINTERS, CO-HOST, STEVE BANNON'S "WAR ROOM": Well, you're only probably with the most controversial White House correspondents.
O'SULLIVAN: Right.
CARA CASTRONUOVA, REPORTER, LINDELL TV: And I'm actually really good at yelling. because I used to be a ring announcer.
WINTERS: We're all biased, right? We just wear our bias, which I think is a pejorative term to begin with on our sleeves.
BRIAN GLENN, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "REAL AMERICA'S VOICE": I mean, there's no doubt about it. I'm pro-Trump. The questions I ask, in my
opinion, are going to help highlight the good things that he's doing for America.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): These are White House correspondents like you've never seen before. They're part of the Trump administration's push to bring
so-called new media into the White House.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have a individual in our new media seat today.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Cara Castronuova is White House correspondent for Lindell TV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go to mypillow.com.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Yes, that Lindell.
LEAVITT: Boys will be boys and --
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The new media outlets have full access to the White House briefing room where they ask questions like this.
CASTRONUOVA: Will you guys also consider releasing the president's fitness plan? He actually looks healthier than ever before? Is he working out with
Bobby Kennedy and is he eating less McDonald's?
LEAVITT: I can't confirm. The president is in very good shape.
GLENN: Why don't you wear a suit? Why don't you wear a suit? You're the highest level in this country's office.
O'SULLIVAN: And the characterization that what you were doing asking Zelenskyy that question that you were trolling?
GLENN: I'm not a troll. I never have been. That was a legitimate question. I just wanted to ask. It didn't mean to, you know, get everyone fired up
like they did.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Right now, the brief room, the seats are, you know, big networks up front. You're hoping that that will be rearranged,
that outlets like yourself might have a more prominent seat here.
WINTERS: Definitely. If it were up to me, I'd kick a lot of these outlets out. I view my role here more as sort of reporting on not so much the White
House, but really the media.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Natalie Winters is White House correspondent for Steve Bannon's show "War Room."
WINTERS: Our bias is not to be sycophants for President Trump. Our bias is for our audience, which is the working class of America, the people who
want to put this country first.
O'SULLIVAN: If Trump messes up, will you guys call it out?
WINTERS: Yes, and we have. I think time and time again, particularly on the vertical and issue of immigration. We are not for stapling green cards
to diplomas.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): We met the new media correspondents on the day Trump announced tariffs that could upend the world economic order. As other
news outlets reported on the tanking stock market, on Bannon TV, they celebrate it.
WINTERS: This is the first day where a sitting president put America's working class first, and it's a glorious day to be standing here at the
White House and to be able to say that and bring that to you.
O'SULLIVAN: Have the, quote/unquote, "traditional reporters" that are here been hostile to you at all, has --
WINTERS: Well, I think they know better than to come after Natalie Winter's in the "War Room" posse. But it's the looks, the eye rolls, the
conversations that I overhear.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): They're adjusting to life as part of the White House Press Corps.
O'SULLIVAN: These big tents here is where you have CNN, ABC.
CASTRONUOVA: Right.
O'SULLIVAN: The networks. And you guys are kind off this side here.
CASTRONUOVA: So, we're kind of off to the side, which is what a lot of alternate media is doing right now.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): From the protocols --
CASTRONUOVA: There were times when -- at the beginning, when we're standing kind of here, not realizing we're in people shots.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): -- to the snack selection.
CASTRONUOVA: And then, this is off topic. The vending machine is full of junk food, and I'm a big MAHA person. I almost ate a Beef Slim Jim
yesterday. I was desperate.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you consider yourself a journalist?
WINTERS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Tell me --
WINTERS: It seems like you took a little pause to process that.
O'SULLIVAN: No, I mean --
GLENN: But I think we all should have a seat at the table. I really do. And if you -- the very first week she did the new media, it was Axios. And
Axios, by no stretch of imagination, is a conservative new media.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But while not all new media here are MAGA media, a lot of them are more cheerleading President Trump than challenging him.
O'SULLIVAN: You are a Trump fan, right?
CASTRONUOVA: Yes, I'm definitely a supporter of President Trump.
O'SULLIVAN: So, will you be able to hold them to account then and call them out?
CASTRONUOVA: I would, I will be able to hold, a hundred percent, him to account. You know, there's -- I'm sure things that will happen that I
disagree with and I have said plenty of times, you know, on the record when I've disagreed with his decisions.
O'SULLIVAN: Is there anything so far in this administration you've disagreed with?
CASTRONUOVA: I'm not going to -- let me put some thought into that for a second. I'm just overwhelmed -- like just overwhelmed with how well I
perceive things to be going.
[18:45:00]
O'SULLIVAN: But to the people, and I'm sure you see this online every single day, who say, you don't deserve to be here because you're not a real
journalist, what's your response to them?
WINTERS: Well, I'm pretty sure the group of people in there spent, what was it, four years covering for someone who was essentially dead, and
that's being charitable. In my description of him, a president by the name of Joe Biden.
So, to all those people who are apoplectic over having new media voices, you guys fail. And that's why we're here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Our thanks to Donie O'Sullivan there. Coming up, the dangers of microplastics. I'm going to speak with a trailblazing scientist who rang
the alarm.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: As Elon Musk's Tesla struggles one of its biggest competitors. China's BYD. It's making progress and showing off its latest offerings,
including a luxury sports car. This at China's largest auto show. Marc Stewart is there in Shanghai.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When we look at this U.S.-China, trade war, technology is a big part of it. We're on the ground here in Shanghai
at the largest auto show in China. It's a chance for Chinese companies, of course, to show off their innovations, but it's also a chance for China to
show that it's a force and it doesn't need the U.S. to thrive.
The unveiling of this blue car here is one of the most anticipated events of the entire show. It's from Chinese auto giant BYD and its Denza brand
its first concept sports car. As you can see, it's very aerodynamic. It's got a spoiler on the back. This is a big deal, because BYD is really a
fierce competitor to Tesla.
This isn't just about style. These cars have a potential for speed. This is the 7GT from the brand Zeekr. It can go from 0 to around 60 in just about
three seconds. This car is attention getting not just for its bright color, but for its connectivity. It's from a company called Xiaomi.
It's a phone company. A lot of people have their phones. One feature is that you can control some of the different appliances from your car from
this very panel in front. Because of tariffs, Chinese car makers are locked out of the American market, but they're firmly planted in China, which is
the world's largest automobile market.
They've also been expanding to places like Europe and to Africa, showing that they don't have to have American buyers to be successful.
Marc Stewart, CNN, Shanghai.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Now, to Europe where the E.U. is now hitting Apple and Meta with almost $800 million in fines. It's the first penalty the bloc is serving up
for breaching its Digital Markets Act. CNN's Clare Sebastian explains why the E.U. is not hitting the tech companies quite as hard as they could
have.
[18:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was a delicate moment for the European Union given the current trade climate. On the one hand, they
had to be seen to be enforcing their digital laws, but with Trump's reciprocal tariffs paused in Europe hoping they'll be dropped completely,
they also had reason to avoid inflaming further tensions with the U.S., especially because the Trump administration has made it clear it sees
Europe's tech regulations as non-tariff barriers against which it could retaliate with tariff. So, the fines themselves are relatively modest.
Apple, which was found by the E.U. to not be doing enough to allow app developers to steer users to offers outside the app store, well, they were
fined around $570 million, a small change for a company that made almost $400 billion in annual revenue last year.
Now, Meta, which the E.U. says through its consent or pay system on Facebook and Instagram didn't offer users who didn't consent to their
personal data being used for personalized advertising and equivalent service, which uses less of their personal data, well, they were hit with a
fine of around $230 million.
Previous antitrust penalties in Europe have been in the billions. But there's a sting, both companies have to pay the fines and change their
behavior within 60 days. Meta already has a fix in place which the E.U. is assessing, or they risk fines going up.
And both companies have slammed the decision. Apple promising to appeal, saying the E.U. decisions are, quote, "bad for the privacy and security of
our users, bad for products, and force us to give away our technology for free." Meta going even further, saying that the commission forcing us to
change our business model effectively imposes a multi-billion-dollar tariff on Meta while requiring us to offer an inferior service.
The pointed use there of the word tariff, which this isn't, making it clear that while the E.U. is still willing to get tough on tech, the political
climate and Trump's trade war have raised the stakes.
Clare Sebastian, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Long lines stretching across the Vatican today is thousands of mourners await their turn to pay their respects to Pope Francis, his body
lying in state at St. Peter's Basilica for three days ahead of his funeral, planned for Saturday. CNN's Clarissa Ward has been inside the Basilica.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We've just exited the Basilica where the body of Pope Francis is lying in state and will be
for the next few days. There were hymns being sung softly by a choir, prayers being said, and this long line of largely silent people filing in
quietly to pay their last respects to the leader of the Catholic Church who many really viewed as transformative.
And looking at the crowds who were waiting to go and pay those last respects, you could see that some of them were there to mark a moment in
history, some of them perhaps had already been here in Rome when Pope Francis died. Others clearly, deeply moved by his life, by his legacy.
Quite a bit of emotion from some people trying to take the time to pray and have some reflection. We saw a lot of families, babies, children, hoisted
on shoulders, and of course a lot of people, as is common in the world today with their iPhones trying to capture this moment.
And although Pope Francis was very emphatic about his desire to live a simple and humble life, when you're standing in that basilica, in that
extraordinary space, there is certainly an air of majesty. Now, we're outside and you can see some people are exiting, but over here long lines
snaking around as people wait for their turn to go and pay their respects.
When Pope John Paul II, hundreds of thousands came. And we spoke to one person who has been covering the pope for many years who said that the more
people saw the images on television of visitors filing past to see the body of Pope John Paul II lying in state, the more visitors then began to flock
to St. Peters Square to be part of this historic moment. And so, we will see in the coming days as more and more people gather to remember Pope
Francis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Before we go, take a look at this, just shocking close call. Surveillance video shows a woman and her two children, good lord, narrowly
escaping a manhole explosion seconds there after they stepped over the cover. She later ran, of course, as the explosion happened. This happened
in Poughkeepsie, New York, north of Manhattan. The local fire department says no one appears to have been injured, thankfully.
[18:55:00]
And finally, in today's Good Brief, it was 20 years ago today that the very first YouTube video was uploaded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So, here we are in one of the elephants. Cool thing about these guys is that they have really, really, really long
fronts, and that's cool. And that's pretty much all there is to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Groundbreaking. That's one of the co-founders of the platform. Of course, speaking about the elephants behind him. This was at the San Diego
Zoo. The clip is titled "Me at the Zoo." And now, has more than 350 million views. YouTube, which Google acquired in 2006, says that it now has more
than 20 billion videos. On average, there are more than 20 million clips uploaded every single day. Change the world.
Thanks so much for your company today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
END
